Improved Divine Smite

[RSP]

So, for reference, the wording of IDS:

“By 11th level, you are so suffused with righteous might that all your melee weapon strikes carry divine power with them. Whenever you hit a creature with a melee weapon, the creature takes an extra 1d8 radiant damage. If you also use your Divine Smite with an Attack, you add this damage to the extra damage of your Divine Smite.”

Main question is with that last sentence: as itÂ’s written, it seems to be saying the 1d8 Radiant damage that now occurs on melee weapon attacks is instead part of the pool of additional Radiant damage done when a Divine Smite occurs; which doesnÂ’t really make sense unless the melee weapon attack and the Smite damage rolls were separate rolls (which, my understanding of the RAW is they arenÂ’t: theyÂ’re joined in one roll).

Do you all play that as an additional 1d8 Radiant added to every melee weapon attack, and, separately, an additional 1d8 Radiant added to Divine Smite damage? So, an 11 Paladin who uses a long sword to attack, and uses a 1st level slot for DS, would do 1d8 Slashing + 1d8 Radiant (IDS) + 3d8 Radiant (1st level slot DS+IDS)?

Or do you do 1d8 Slashing + 3d8 Radiant (DS + IDS)?

Does anyone think these are two different damage rolls?

Thanks for your thoughts.

[MaxWilson]

Do you all play that as an additional 1d8 Radiant added to every melee weapon attack, and, separately, an additional 1d8 Radiant added to Divine Smite damage? So, an 11 Paladin who uses a long sword to attack, and uses a 1st level slot for DS, would do 1d8 Slashing + 1d8 Radiant (IDS) + 3d8 Radiant (1st level slot DS+IDS)?

Or do you do 1d8 Slashing + 3d8 Radiant (DS + IDS)?

I didn't understand the leadup to this question but I can answer this: I use 1d8 slashing + 3d8 Radiant.

If no spell slots are spent then it's just 1d8 slashing + 1d8 radiant. The 1st level spell slot adds 2d8 Radiant. There's no additional 1d8 on top of that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The last sentence is for clarification that it's still included when you divine smite, not replaced by the divine smite.

Without the last sentence:
Normal attack is 1d8 weapon + 1d8 radiant IDS
Divine Smite attack is 1d8 weapon + 2d8 radiant divine smite (1st level spell)
i.e. you pick between adding 1d8 radiant from IDS, or 2d8 radiant from divine smite.

With the last sentence you get to keep both.

[Gale]

The last line has actually been errata'd and removed in the latest version of Player's Handbook, most likely for clarity's sake. (You can find the errata here.)

As others said, Improved Divine Smite simply adds 1d8 radiant damage to all melee weapon attacks. It stacks with Divine Smite, but doesn't have any direct effect on it.

[RSP]

The last sentence is for clarification that it's still included when you divine smite, not replaced by the divine smite.

Without the last sentence:
Normal attack is 1d8 weapon + 1d8 radiant IDS
Divine Smite attack is 1d8 weapon + 2d8 radiant divine smite (1st level spell)
i.e. you pick between adding 1d8 radiant from IDS, or 2d8 radiant from divine smite.

With the last sentence you get to keep both.

Apologies, but thats just not how the rules work: your statement that the sentence is needed assumes the game only allows one ability to be used at any given time, which is not how it works: a Paladin can add +2 to damage from the Dueling Fighting Style, while also adding +1d8 from IDS; without a similar sentence telling us its allowed. So stating it’s required for these abilities to function at the same time is just an incorrect statement.

Further, each of the abilities, IDS and DS, work fine without that last sentence: DS lets you use slots for added damage; IDS adds damage to every melee weapon attack. There’s nothing conflicting about those abilities, hence, no special sentence allowing them to work together is required.

I’ll fully acknowledge that sentence is not well written (hence the post), but I don’t see how it’s a necessary element to the abilities working together, as you claim (unless of course, you are claiming abilities can not ever apply effects at the same time, unless such a sentence is present, but I’m assuming that’s not what you’re saying).

[RSP]

The last line has actually been errata'd and removed in the latest version of Player's Handbook, most likely for clarity's sake. (You can find the errata here.)

As others said, Improved Divine Smite simply adds 1d8 radiant damage to all melee weapon attacks. It stacks with Divine Smite, but doesn't have any direct effect on it.

Well that makes sense! Thank you for pointing that out.

[greenstone]

As others said, Improved Divine Smite simply adds 1d8 radiant damage to all melee weapon attacks.

No, it doesn't. It adds 1d8 radiant damage to all attacks with a melee weapon.

Why is this important?

Because Improved Divine Smite does not add damage to unarmed attacks or natural weapon attacks (e.g. tabaxi claws or minotaur horns). Divine Smite does add damage to those attacks.

It is the other way around when throwing javelins or hand axes. Improved Divine Smite does apply, Divine Smite does not.

[Gale]

No, it doesn't. It adds 1d8 radiant damage to all attacks with a melee weapon.

Why is this important?

Because Improved Divine Smite does not add damage to unarmed attacks or natural weapon attacks (e.g. tabaxi claws or minotaur horns). Divine Smite does add damage to those attacks.

It is the other way around when throwing javelins or hand axes. Improved Divine Smite does apply, Divine Smite does not.

The latest version of the PHB states that unarmed strikes don't count as weapons, and therefore they don't qualify for Divine Smite or Improved Divine Smite. This is reiterated in the Sage Advice Compendium, where it's explicitly stated that you can't use Divine Smite with an unarmed strike. However, SAC does state that natural weapons are considered weapons though, so go figure.

I didn't mean to spread any misinformation though. It's just hard to write generally about melee weapons since unarmed strikes exist in a weird, paradoxical state where they can be used to make melee weapon attacks despite not actually being weapons.

[Angelalex242]

It's +1d8 radiant damage on every hit. Even if the Paladin is unlucky and just punching somebody, he gets his 1d8 radiant.

[ProsecutorGodot]

It's +1d8 radiant damage on every hit. Even if the Paladin is unlucky and just punching somebody, he gets his 1d8 radiant.

Attacks with a melee weapon, not melee weapon attacks.

[Angelalex242]

I dunno.

Paladin should probably get it if he's in prison and stripped of all equipment.

It's from his Oath, after all.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I dunno.

Paladin should probably get it if he's in prison and stripped of all equipment.

It's from his Oath, after all.

It's a common house rule (something I'd allow myself) but I don't see how that's any argument for it, they get a lot of things from their oath that don't work all the time on everything.

[Angelalex242]

I acknowledge it's likely a house rule, but it seems more righteous.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

No, it doesn't. It adds 1d8 radiant damage to all attacks with a melee weapon.

Why is this important?

Because Improved Divine Smite does not add damage to unarmed attacks or natural weapon attacks (e.g. tabaxi claws or minotaur horns). Divine Smite does add damage to those attacks.

It is the other way around when throwing javelins or hand axes. Improved Divine Smite does apply, Divine Smite does not.

I had never realized that. Most of our paladins end up chucking a couple of javelins on the way into combat so that matters.

[Nifft]

I dunno.

Paladin should probably get it if he's in prison and stripped of all equipment.

It's from his Oath, after all.

"Use the shiv, Luke!"

[Witty Username]

Attacks with a melee weapon, not melee weapon attacks.

So it works with divine smite but not improved divine smite.
Er, it would work with divine smite if it didn't add to the weapon damage, given its current wording and RAI is you need a weapon to add the damage to the weapon's damage, so no unarmed strikes as they are not weapons. But it is not considered weapon damage so it doesn't work with great weapon fighting. I hope I was at least as clear as WOTC.