kill'em dead for good

[Cowboy_ninja]

how many ways are there to bring someone back from the dead and what would it take to keep PC's from doing that?

[NEO|Phyte]

There's a handful of spells that can bring back the dead, the easiest way to deal with them is to hide/mangle/utterly destroy the body (depending on how hard you want them to be to bring back)

If the best the PCs can access is Raise Dead, a suitably mangled corpse (or being killed by a Death effect, or having the corpse turned into an Undead creature) will stop them, while Resurrection requires you to deny them any access to any portion of the body, which includes Disintegration dust. If they can Wish/Miracle/True Res, your only way to stop them is to trap/destroy the soul of the person in question.

[tyckspoon]

The basic ways to bring somebody back are Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Resurrection, and Reincarnate. A Wish spell may also raise a dead person by duplicating Resurrection.

Destroying or otherwise disposing of the body will prevent Raise Dead, Resurrection, and Reincarnate, and make it more difficult to use Wish. In order to prevent True Resurrection, you have to do what NEO said- find some way to trap the soul. You can do that a couple of different ways. The easiest is probably to revive the body as some kind of undead; that prevents raising spells from working unless the undead is destroyed first. The most obvious is to use the Trap the Soul spell. You can also feed the dead body to a Barghest. Anybody they eat is beyond a Raise Dead or Resurrection, and True Res/Wish/Miracle has only a 50% chance of working.

If you're trying to get somebody beyond the reach of the gods... probably the best bet is to use Trap the Soul and then give the resulting soul-filled gem to another god who doesn't want that person raised.

[CatCameBack]

Reduce victim to unconciousness via negative hp (not fully dead).

Summon suitably large/powerful outsider.

Instruct outsider to remove body to other plane, and tell them not to tell you where it goes. Further instruct them to maintain the body at negative hp or inert state of some sort indefinitely.


Depending on the rules interpretation of your DM, slayong the person on another plane may invalidate True Res attempts as well.

[Jack Zander]

Step 1: Flesh to Stone.
Step 2: Stone to Mud.
Step 3: Purify Food and Drink.
Step 4: Drink person.
Step 5: Pee in river.
Step 6: ???
Step 7: Profit!

Since the person never died, not even True Res can bring them back from the dead. I suppose a Miracle or Wish could undo all the transmutations... maybe...

[MCerberus]

Step 1: Flesh to Stone.
Step 2: Stone to Mud.
Step 3: Purify Food and Drink.
Step 4: Drink person.
Step 5: Pee in river.
Step 6: ???
Step 7: Profit!

Since the person never died, not even True Res can bring them back from the dead. I suppose a Miracle or Wish could undo all the transmutations... maybe...

I think they'd be dead after step 3.

[Doresain]

I think they'd be dead after step 3.

or really really messed up in the head afterwards

[Jack Zander]

I think they'd be dead after step 3.

How so? None of these spells kill a subject. The target of a Flesh to Stone spell cannot be killed until they are brought back to flesh. It says so in the spell. Of course, if the stone is destroyed then they die when they are brought back to flesh, but their soul is trapped in the stone and cannot be revived until then.

[MCerberus]

Well I'm going to have to go with suspension of belief. It's kind of a moot point because the stoned creature is still a creature and purify doesn't work that way.

[Nowhere Girl]

I think it's genius.

And what a way to deal with someone you really hate ...

[MCerberus]

I think it's genius.

And what a way to deal with someone you really hate ...

You're right this is too good to ruin with rule lawyering. Although at the worse I think this would only need quick action, a restoration (or wish-like spell), mud to stone, and then a stone to flesh to break out of.

[Jack Zander]

You're right this is too good to ruin with rule lawyering. Although at the worse I think this would only need quick action, a restoration (or wish-like spell), mud to stone, and then a stone to flesh to break out of.

That's why you drink it and pee in the river.

P.S. Purify does work that way.

[Nowhere Girl]

You're right this is too good to ruin with rule lawyering. Although at the worse I think this would only need quick action, a restoration (or wish-like spell), mud to stone, and then a stone to flesh to break out of.

I think at the very least that a Wish could undo it, too. I wouldn't say it's a way to make death completely, truly permanent (unless you houserule away most or all resurrection-type spells, which I would because I feel they detract horribly from dramatic tension ... but that's another issue), I just think it's a brilliant way to really stick it to a person you hate enough to expend this kind of effort.

[MCerberus]

That's why you drink it and pee in the river.

P.S. Purify does work that way.

If it's still their body, and their body is still housing their soul, I'd think that would still count as a creature and as such is immune to having the water purified out of it.

[Jack Zander]

Ah, wait. I see what you're saying now. Yeah, a wish or miracle could restore them to mud (or even to stone maybe). You might not even have to revive them. If you can sculpt the stone back into their shape, I think they come back unharmed. Maybe not though, I need to look up the spell again.

So no, it's not completely 100% sure of killing them dead for good, but for every effort that you put forth (which isn't a lot. I think the highest level spell here is level 4 or 5), they have to put about 2-3 times as much effort bringing them back.

[Jack Zander]

If it's still their body, and their body is still housing their soul, I'd think that would still count as a creature and as such is immune to having the water purified out of it.

Not RAW but if you rule it that way, sure.

[Winged One]

Have a wizard with the Truename skill cast Unname(basicly, they're erased from existance). It's the least reversible non-evil method of killing someone. If you don't mind committing a Vile act that shifts your alignment 1 step toward evil, then destroy their soul(probably a few ways to do that from the BoVD). Also, I believe there's a weapon material in Complete Warrior that traps the soul of people killed with a weapon made from it.

[Ulzgoroth]

Sphere of Annihilation works, barring divine intervention.

[Jack Zander]

Sphere of Annihilation works, barring divine intervention.

Yup. Probably the best way but also the hardest. Where are you gonna find one of those?

[Ulzgoroth]

At the bottom of every other pit trap?

Well, with a sufficiently sadistic DM.

[herrhauptmann]

A 10th level black flame zealot's death attack consumes the soul. No resurrection possible.

[Jack Zander]

I have to agree with Nowhere Girl. Resurrections are for campaigns that have no dramatic tension. Res and True Res should not exist, and Raise Dead should be 8th or 9th level. That way when a character dies, they really die unless some crazy dramatic spell brings them back. Of course, DnD has too many save or die spells for this to be viable, but I suppose you could outlaw them as well.

[tyckspoon]

You could still allow Revivify and similar effects. The time limit where they're still good is sharply reduced; you can use them to pick somebody up after a save-or-die, but they don't have the "We're in the middle of nowhere? Not a problem, chuck the stiff in a bag. He'll keep 'til we've got some diamonds." effect from Res/True Res. I think of those spells as kind of grabbing the escaping soul and stuffing it back into the body before it gets too far away.

[sophosbarbaros]

I am pretty sure someone told me once that being reduced to negative class levels (or HD) had the effect of a non-res possible death. Is that correct?

[Behold_the_Void]

By your post, it implies you're the DM. The answer I propose is simple:

Ban all spells that return the dead to life.

Really, that's the best way to do it. If you're looking for ways to permanently kill off your PCs and give them no ways to get raised, you'll have to be very specific and it'll be hard NOT to look like you were out to kill their characters. And when my DM goes through extensive lengths to kill me without any hope of getting raised, I find a new DM and tell all my friends to never play with that person again.

Just sayin'

[tyckspoon]

I am pretty sure someone told me once that being reduced to negative class levels (or HD) had the effect of a non-res possible death. Is that correct?

Hmm. I don't think that's an absolute rule (it does sound sort of familiar, tho), but if you manage to go 24 hours and suffer level drain greater than your HD- that's the requirement for those levels to become permanent losss- your group probably doesn't have the resources to raise you anyway. There is a specific mention of what happens if you get level-drained to death by a number of different undead; you rise some few rounds later as another undead. If that happens, your undead body has to be defeated before you can be raised.

Edit: Oh, here we go.

A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

[sophosbarbaros]

ahhh, thank you very much

[Tempest Fennac]

Something else that you could do it use a perminent binding spell on someone ( http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Binding_%28Spell%29 ) and make sure that whatever object tey are bound in is incredibly well hidden (admittedly, they wouldn't be dead, and divinations could probably be used to find the object, but it could be useful).

[EvilJames]

on that flesh to stone to pee in river process I would rule them dead after you drink them if not before.

[Fizban]

The basic ways to bring somebody back are Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Resurrection, and Reincarnate. A Wish spell may also raise a dead person by duplicating Resurrection.

Destroying or otherwise disposing of the body will prevent Raise Dead, Resurrection, and Reincarnate, and make it more difficult to use Wish. In order to prevent True Resurrection, you have to do what NEO said- find some way to trap the soul. You can do that a couple of different ways. The easiest is probably to revive the body as some kind of undead; that prevents raising spells from working unless the undead is destroyed first. The most obvious is to use the Trap the Soul spell. You can also feed the dead body to a Barghest. Anybody they eat is beyond a Raise Dead or Resurrection, and True Res/Wish/Miracle has only a 50% chance of working.

If you're trying to get somebody beyond the reach of the gods... probably the best bet is to use Trap the Soul and then give the resulting soul-filled gem to another god who doesn't want that person raised.

If you don't have access to a Barghest, you can use the spell Barghest's Feast, from the Spell Compendium, which does the same thing without the middle man. Destroys all traces of the body and a 50% chance to destroy the soul beyone true rez and wish power. I think it's between levels 6 and 8. It will require an extra action after the kill though, so unless the caster is very secure in their power, it's not a good idea.