What does Sorlock get from Warlock 3?

[Dragonsonthemap]

Hello all,

Building a 20th-level Divine Soul/Celestial Pact Sorlock for a game that will happen eventually (I've posted about it here before). Trying to decide whether to take two or three levels of Warlock. Three SEEMED like a no-brainer, but it's not actually clear to me what I can get out of pacts or a few extra sorcery points, compared to knowing 2 9th level spells instead of one, especially since it now sounds like this campaign will be done entirely at 20th level. Most of the time I hear about Sorlock builds, they end sorcerer at 17th level. Why is that? What am I missing about Warlock 3?

[KorvinStarmast]

Hello all,

Building a 20th-level Divine Soul/Celestial Pact Sorlock for a game that will happen eventually (I've posted about it here before). Trying to decide whether to take two or three levels of Warlock. Three SEEMED like a no-brainer, but it's not actually clear to me what I can get out of pacts or a few extra sorcery points, compared to knowing 2 9th level spells instead of one, especially since it now sounds like this campaign will be done entirely at 20th level. Most of the time I hear about Sorlock builds, they end sorcerer at 17th level. Why is that? What am I missing about Warlock 3?

A sprite who is a great scout and who can discern a creature's alignment. Maybe. Two second level spells that refresh every short rest. EB and two invocations. Another d8 HD instead of another d6. Access to a few interesting spells like Hex that or Armor of Agythys that may not otherwise be available.

[Willie the Duck]

Most of the time I hear about Sorlock builds, they end sorcerer at 17th level. Why is that? What am I missing about Warlock 3?

The levels preceding L20 might make a big difference in this question, so it might not be pertinent to your situation. Regardless, I'm going to guess it is mostly the pact features, plus getting to pump two 2nd level spells into the sorlock mill instead of two first level ones.

[Grimmnist]

A sprite who is a great scout and who can discern a creature's alignment. Maybe. Two second level spells that refresh every short rest. EB and two invocations. Another d8 HD instead of another d6. Access to a few interesting spells like Hex that or Armor of Agythys that may not otherwise be available.

The 2nd level spell slots is the biggest thing, since you can convert these into sorcery points you essentially get twice as many per short rest. At level 3 warlock also gets their pact boon, as Korvin said Pact of the Chain is always a good utility choice, Find Familiar is a very useful spell.

If you really want to follow the path of the Warlock and delve into truly forbidden knowledge Pact of the Tome lets you go Coffee-lock. There is a Pact of the Tome restricted invocation that makes it so your warlock no longer needs to sleep, though you still need to take the equivalent of a longrest to regain spells slots etc. As a coffeelock you can spend days spamming short rests, converting your warlock spell slots into sorc points and then extra spell slots that don't go away until you long rest and stockpile theoretically infinite resources. DISCLAIMER, I don't actually recommend this, most parties aren't going to be amused by spending days of in game time spamming short rests, this playstyle is definitely more theoretically powerful than actually feasible.

[MaxWilson]

The 2nd level spell slots is the biggest thing, since you can convert these into sorcery points you essentially get twice as many per short rest. At level 3 warlock also gets their pact boon, as Korvin said Pact of the Chain is always a good utility choice, Find Familiar is a very useful spell.

If you really want to follow the path of the Warlock and delve into truly forbidden knowledge Pact of the Tome lets you go Coffee-lock. There is a Pact of the Tome restricted invocation that makes it so your warlock no longer needs to sleep, though you still need to take the equivalent of a longrest to regain spells slots etc. As a coffeelock you can spend days spamming short rests, converting your warlock spell slots into sorc points and then extra spell slots that don't go away until you long rest and stockpile theoretically infinite resources. DISCLAIMER, I don't actually recommend this, most parties aren't going to be amused by spending days of in game time spamming short rests, this playstyle is definitely more theoretically powerful than actually feasible.

It's also overkill. Who needs infinite resources? Even just an extra 24 hours' worth of resources is more than you'll probably ever use before you die or succeed. I've never seen anyone actually WANT to take multiple days.

I guess the one exception might be e.g. if you are trying to singlehandedly win a war by (Divine Soul, Animate Dead) animating 7200 skeletons all at once. Even then, there are better ways to do it, e.g. Conjure Celestial (Couatl) + Bestow Curse + Wish (Planar Binding) x100 should yield around 85 Couatls, which can probably defeat any army that the skeletons could.

[diplomancer]

If your main reason to be Warlock 2 instead of 3 is to know 2 9th level spells instead of 1, remember that even with only 17 sorcerer levels you can know 2 9th level spells, you just got to replace one of your earlier known spells once you reach 17th level, to add to the new one you've just learned.

[MaxWilson]

If your main reason to be Warlock 2 instead of 3 is to know 2 9th level spells instead of 1, remember that even with only 17 sorcerer levels you can know 2 9th level spells, you just got to replace one of your earlier known spells once you reach 17th level, to add to the new one you've just learned.

Ah, but with Sorc 18 you can know three 9th level spells. :-)

Actually, that might even actually matter for a Clockwork Soul or Aberrant Mind. I can imagine wanting Wish, Psychic Scream, and Meteor Swarm.

[borg286]

Outside of Coffeelock, you actually can convert and should consider converting your warlock spells into sorcery points. 1st level spells are poor for this because, from a spell point perspective, you lose 50% of their worth through the conversion (1st level spell is worth 2 spell points, but only 1 sorcery point). But converting 2nd level spells only has a 33% conversion loss (2nd level spell is worth 3 spell points but 2 sorcery points). If you have 4 short rests per day then warlock 1 gets you 4x 1st level spells or 4 sorcery points. Warlock 2 gets you 8 1st level spells and 8 sorcery points. Warlock 3 gets you 8 2nd level spells or 16 sorcery points.

If you are focused on level 20, then you won't see much use out of more 2nd level spells. But if you consider melting down your crappy daily resources to blow some big guns (polymorph, synaptic static...) then converting 2nd level spells to sorcery points is more cost efficient than 1st and 3rd level spells. You get more milage by asking your DM to allow you to use the Spell Point variant in the DMG so you can melt your spell points for sorcery points at the highest ROI (7 spell points -> 5th level slot -> 5 sorcery points, ie. 29% drop from conversion). Obviously you wouldn't want to convert all your sorcery points into 5th level spells, but rather do as much twinning as possible. Or if you are an aberrant mind sorcerer, casting Evards Black Tentacles or psionically (subtly) casting Modify Memory on someone, or blasting with Synaptic Static (Psychic never resisted, and int saves are never high), psionic/subtle can't be counterspelled.

Spell points enable you to frontload your spells by properly melting down low level slots, but the sorcerer can do Twinning and take advantage of the 2nd level spells Warlock offers to get those extra 16 sorcery points for twinning fodder. Warlock 2 only gives you 8 sorcery points for fodder, just not the same). Again assumming 4 short rests per day.

[ATHATH]

It's also overkill. Who needs infinite resources? Even just an extra 24 hours' worth of resources is more than you'll probably ever use before you die or succeed. I've never seen anyone actually WANT to take multiple days.

I guess the one exception might be e.g. if you are trying to singlehandedly win a war by (Divine Soul, Animate Dead) animating 7200 skeletons all at once. Even then, there are better ways to do it, e.g. Conjure Celestial (Couatl) + Bestow Curse + Wish (Planar Binding) x100 should yield around 85 Couatls, which can probably defeat any army that the skeletons could.

If your cause is morally just, would you even need the Bestow Curse castings? Couldn't you just ask the Couatls to voluntary fail their saves vs. Planar Binding, after letting them read your thoughts so that they can be confident that you're not trying to trick them?

[Composer99]

Hello all,

Building a 20th-level Divine Soul/Celestial Pact Sorlock for a game that will happen eventually (I've posted about it here before). Trying to decide whether to take two or three levels of Warlock. Three SEEMED like a no-brainer, but it's not actually clear to me what I can get out of pacts or a few extra sorcery points, compared to knowing 2 9th level spells instead of one, especially since it now sounds like this campaign will be done entirely at 20th level. Most of the time I hear about Sorlock builds, they end sorcerer at 17th level. Why is that? What am I missing about Warlock 3?

As has already been noted, you can replace one of your existing spells known with another 9th-level spell at 17th level, in addition to picking up a 9th-level spell upon reaching Sorcerer 17.

Anyway:

Sorcerer 18 gets you:
- 1 extra 5th level spell slot
- 1 extra sorcery point per long rest
- Replace one sorcerer spell that you know with another one (presumably of a higher level) - possibly a 3rd 9th-level spell.
- A d8 Hit Die

Warlock 3 gets you:
- Converts your 1st-level warlock spell slots into 2nd-level slots. If you're habitually converting these into sorcery points, they're now worth 4 sorcery points (instead of 2) per short or long rest.
- The pact boon
- 1 4th 1st-level or 2nd-level warlock spell known
- Replace one warlock spell that you know with another 1st or 2nd-level warlock spell
- A d8 Hit Die

It looks like warlock is the winner here:
- A single short rest gets you a 5th-level spell slot and a single spare sorcery point, exactly the same as sorcerer 18. Each subsequent short rest is gravy. But you can also use these sorcerer points more flexibly, for instance, if you like to burn points on metamagic.
- Either Pact of the Chain or Pact of the Tome are strong choices: Chain gets you a creature that is often capable of invisibility - helpful for scouting and taking the Help action in combat (your party paladin, barbarian, or rogue will thank you); Tome when combined with Book of Ancient Secrets gets you a big pile of ritual casting - the most flexible ritual casting in the game, as far as I am aware (since your Book of Shadows can contain rituals from any class' spell list).

Where warlock falls short is the spell replacement and any game in which you're not reliably getting at least one short rest in an adventuring day. If your party likes 15-minute adventuring days, or, upon examining your potential spells known, you're finding you really want an extra sorcerer spell of 3rd level or higher (or both), you're better off with sorcerer 18. Otherwise, though, it's hard to compete with the Pact Boon and the sorcery point gravy train. At least, IMO.

[shipiaozi]

After Tasha, sorlock only need to multiclass Hexblade 1, then spend feat to boost Eldritch Blast
If you want Celestial Pact, then spend feat to get medium armor and shield.
I suggest sorcerer 7 => sorcerer 7/warlock 1 => sorcerer 17/warlock 1 => sorcerer 17/warlock 1/warrior 2

[Hael]

Sorlock three is really an eldritch cannon build, or a pretty exotic melee sorlock that wants a two handed weapon.

Sorlock threes don’t really care too much about sorcerer progression bc they’re mostly double eb blasting. So once they get their darkness or shadow sorcerer darkness, that’s what they’re concentrating on and the rest doesn’t really matter. They’ll pick up rituals or a familiar for utility.

The choice of 2vs 3 is then entirely about whether the dm gives many short rests or not.

The post Tasha warlock 1 build +eldritch feat is usually less a pure eb blaster (bc devil sight and ab costs two feats) and more a standard sorcerer with hexblade goodies that can occasionally nova and double eb spam.

[Lunali]

As an alternative to the more common chain pact, I would like to throw out Book of Ancient Secrets. Expand your effective spell list to include all rituals from every class.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Ah, but with Sorc 18 you can know three 9th level spells. :-)

Actually, that might even actually matter for a Clockwork Soul or Aberrant Mind. I can imagine wanting Wish, Psychic Scream, and Meteor Swarm.

OP specified a DS Sorcerer, and in that case I could definitely see wanting to have more 9th level spells known, and hence more options. In addition to the above-mentioned spells, I could see wanting Mass Heal as a good "break glass in case of emergency" in-combat option, and maybe even True Resurrection if nobody else in the party will have access to it.

Speaking of recovery, I don't think anyone has mentioned it so far, but one of the reasons to go for a 17/3 split rather than 18/2 is the rather underwhelming 18th level subclass features for a lot of Sorcerers. However, I don't think the Divine Soul has this problem.

[MaxWilson]

As an alternative to the more common chain pact, I would like to throw out Book of Ancient Secrets. Expand your effective spell list to include all rituals from every class.

"On your adventures, you can add other ritual spells to your Book of Shadows. When you find such a spell, you can add it to the book if the spell’s level is equal to or less than half your warlock level (rounded up) and if you can spare the time to transcribe the spell."

Meh. Second level rituals are okay (Find Granular is great, Augury is a standout, and Unseen Servant and Comprehend Languages are pretty cool) but not great, and finding Augury in written form may be a chore anyway. Ancient Secrets gets much better with warlock 5 for Meld Into Stone/Phantom Steed/Leomund's Tiny Hut but for warlock 3 it's not the best use of 1/2 of your invocations.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sorcerer 18 gets you:
- 1 extra 5th level spell slot
- 1 extra sorcery point per long rest
- Replace one sorcerer spell that you know with another one (presumably of a higher level) - possibly a 3rd 9th-level spell.
- A d8 Hit Die

A d6 HD.

[kaervaak]

The chain pact boon gives magic resistance with either the Psuedodragon or Imp familiar. That's a pretty big deal in my book.

[Willie the Duck]

The chain pact boon gives magic resistance with either the Psuedodragon or Imp familiar. That's a pretty big deal in my book.

Unless this has been updated, I'm pretty sure the official line on this is that no this is not the case.

[Barny]

Just be practical about your campaign setting.
R u sure if your main campaign/table will go all the way until 20lvl? If so, how long?

In my experience, there are very few long campaigns that will level your PC to 20lvl.
In most case, the campaign may end or pause on medium levels, or most PC are getting bored with their character, and then want to start a new one.

If you decide to go with 18th sorcerer over 3rd warlock, it's more likely that you might never reach, or take long long time to reach the benefits of 18th sorcerer lvl.
While going with 3rd lvl warlock, you can enjoy its features in early levels.

If you DM says it may take 1 or 2yr to reach 20lvls, would you like to maximize the effectiveness of Sorlock build early or wait for 1~2 yrs, when the game might end for many reasons.

[Dragonsonthemap]

Just be practical about your campaign setting.
R u sure if your main campaign/table will go all the way until 20lvl? If so, how long?

In my experience, there are very few long campaigns that will level your PC to 20lvl.
In most case, the campaign may end or pause on medium levels, or most PC are getting bored with their character, and then want to start a new one.

If you decide to go with 18th sorcerer over 3rd warlock, it's more likely that you might never reach, or take long long time to reach the benefits of 18th sorcerer lvl.
While going with 3rd lvl warlock, you can enjoy its features in early levels.

If you DM says it may take 1 or 2yr to reach 20lvls, would you like to maximize the effectiveness of Sorlock build early or wait for 1~2 yrs, when the game might end for many reasons.

We are starting at 20th level and running the whole campaign there.

[kaervaak]

We are starting at 20th level and running the whole campaign there.

Why not just go Sorc 19/War 1 then and use your 19th level ASI for eldritch adept? That gets you an extra 6th level spell slot which seems way better than 2 1st or 2nd level short rest slots to me.

[Hael]

Sorlocks are amongst the most versatile builds in all of 5e. As a lvl20 build you can really do whatever you want. I mean if you’re optimizing for single target nova damage, you can do the 2fighter,1hex,17 sorcerer base and blow most BBEGs up in two turns and make all the martials cry.

The 3 lock build is more sustained eb blasting, provided you’re given lots of short rests. The 1lock, 19 sorcerer base is more long rest oriented with some asi versatility.

It really comes down to if you want to be be blasting, or if you want to be casting or buffing.

So basically party and campaign dependant choices that really doesn’t matter much given that you will be way overturned no matter what you do.