Ongoing value generated by common dips?

[Morphic tide]

One of the largest issues with Templates in D&D 3.5 is that very few of them scale, and even fewer scale well. So I'm wondering how the value of the common dips, like Totemist 2 or the Initiator classes, goes up over time to have benchmarks for how one might design or alter templates to scale in a similar fashion. For instance, Whirling Frenzy will typically give +3 damage per hit, +2 AC, +2 to Reflex saves, and one additional attack to a melee character in one encounter each day, while the compatible Spirit Lion Totem trades the movement speed bump for Pounce, which itself scales based on your level via BAB in enabling extra attacks on the charge. It also gives you slightly more health than your normal levels, due to the d12 hit die.

In most of the build stubs I've seen, the Barbarian dip is actually quite marginal when taken, as it's usually before iterative attacks kick in so Pounce is doing nothing at all for several levels unless you Whirling Frenzy. But at level 16, a Pounce without Whirling Frenzy will obliterate a great many monsters in one round, even before Shock Trooper lets you throw in a full Power Attack without sacrificing accuracy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For a template to add ongoing value, it would indeed need to have something that scales with character level. One of the most common things for that is SR 10+HD or similar, but SR doesn't come into play for PCs as often as it does for monsters.

The Feral and Shadow Creature templates grant additional abilities based on your HD. The Half-Fey, Half-Fiend, and Half-Celestial grant additional spell-like abilities for higher HD, as do the half-elemental templates to a lesser extent.

However, it's RAI that templates that grant a bonus based on HD (without calling out levels) only work for racial HD, not class levels. This can be seen in articles like Half-Fiendish Variety: "Remember that HD for determining spell resistance means racial HD, not those gained with class levels." The Half-Fiend only says, "Spell resistance equal to creature’s HD + 10 (maximum 35)." It's not written that it only counts racial HD, but it's clearly intended, just compare it to the Drow's "Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels."

[Morphic tide]

For a template to add ongoing value, it would indeed need to have something that scales with character level. One of the most common things for that is SR 10+HD or similar, but SR doesn't come into play for PCs as often as it does for monsters.

The Feral and Shadow Creature templates grant additional abilities based on your HD. The Half-Fey, Half-Fiend, and Half-Celestial grant additional spell-like abilities for higher HD, as do the half-elemental templates to a lesser extent.

I understand this perfectly well, the point of making the thread is asking about the nearest comparison point to pin down how much scaling to give, to then use that to inform some homebrew ideas I've been bogged down in. The thing about RHD RAI is a very noteworthy matter for keeping the wording correct, and narrowing the scope of readily-applicable concepts, but again, that's for Homebrew Design, this is asking about how 3.5 is before looking at making some changes and additions.

[Gruftzwerg]

Initiator classes have a weird scaling. This is due to several reasons:

Initiator lvl (ilvl)
Some maneuvers scale with Initiator lvl and non Initiator-classes still provide 1/2 ilvl. Even if you only dip a single lvl into an initiator class (or only take Martial Study/Stance), you get an ilvl of 10 ( 1+19/2=10.5 or 20/2=10).

Maneuver Scaling
Best character lvl 1 option imho are "Burning Blade" and "Leading the Charge". The both have a "+1 damage/initiator level" scaling part. The former is a single turn boost to give all attack 1d6 +1/ilvl fire dmg, the latter gives all allies (including yourself) +1 damage/initiator level for charge attacks (very strong for ubercharger builds). Up to +10 dmg for each attack is still a notable bonus at lvl 20.

Dipping Later is Stronger
Due to the nature of Initiator lvl as described above, you can pick maneuvers of higher lvl when you dip at later levels. There are a quite few that don't require other maneuvers known or only 1-2 (which you can pick within the same lvl) and that can be abused here. (Assassin's Stance, Iron Heart Surge, Shadow Jaunt/Stride, Shifting Defense..)

[Elves]

I almost wonder if templates without HD should even be a thing. They, and races with LA, could all get the monster class treatment. If the HD system is going to be the game's central progression there's an argument for creating an assumption that 1 HD = 1 HD, and reducing non-HD templates to things that are at least theoretically equivalent (eg, Celestial/Fiendish templates could simply change a creature's type and RHD to outsider (good) or (evil), and any other traits could be outsourced to those types and subtypes).

An argument against this is the narrative expressivity of being able to give a creature or character additional powers without increasing their combat modifiers.

[Morphic tide]

Initiator classes have a weird scaling. This is due to several reasons:

Initiator lvl (ilvl)
Some maneuvers scale with Initiator lvl and non Initiator-classes still provide 1/2 ilvl. Even if you only dip a single lvl into an initiator class (or only take Martial Study/Stance), you get an ilvl of 10 ( 1+19/2=10.5 or 20/2=10).

Maneuver Scaling
Best character lvl 1 option imho are "Burning Blade" and "Leading the Charge". The both have a "+1 damage/initiator level" scaling part. The former is a single turn boost to give all attack 1d6 +1/ilvl fire dmg, the latter gives all allies (including yourself) +1 damage/initiator level for charge attacks (very strong for ubercharger builds). Up to +10 dmg for each attack is still a notable bonus at lvl 20.

Dipping Later is Stronger
Due to the nature of Initiator lvl as described above, you can pick maneuvers of higher lvl when you dip at later levels. There are a quite few that don't require other maneuvers known or only 1-2 (which you can pick within the same lvl) and that can be abused here. (Assassin's Stance, Iron Heart Surge, Shadow Jaunt/Stride, Shifting Defense..)

On a very rough level, this would generally compare to how a lot of the existent scaling templates actually increase CR and LA with hit dice, particularly the SLA-granters being transformative every so often. One might say that the ideal LA +1 template would be matching having a virtual Martial Adept level as your most recent at all times.

Mathematically, to my immediate judgement, Burning Blade in particular operates as "+1/2 level damage per attack ~1 round/encounter", while Assassin's Stance is "+7 damage per attack vs Flatfooted/Flanked crit-vulnerable". Of course, these aren't fungible comparisons as Stances and Boosts are different option lists meaning a Swordsage is never unable to take both, and a Swordsage in particular has a whopping six Maneuvers and two Stances to work with, but it serves as an illistration of the sort of work I'm wanting help with because what I want is the consequences of Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Barbarian 1 place in an arbitrary position of a Psychic Warrior build or whatever else you tend to shove that into.

Edit: I'm actually somewhat looking at the breakdown of how highly-optimized uberchargers overkill Great Wyrm Dragons 70% of the time or whatever, so as to work out template design that can replace portions of their math directly without directly enabling even worse from having at least one hoop to be a new multiplier. Same goes for other common dips, like just what Totemist 2 opens up for you to judge how much versatility an LA +2 template might be expected to give.

I almost wonder if templates without HD should even be a thing. They, and races with LA, could all get the monster class treatment. If the HD system is going to be the game's central progression there's an argument for creating an assumption that 1 HD = 1 HD, and reducing non-HD templates to things that are at least theoretically equivalent (eg, Celestial/Fiendish templates could simply change a creature's type and RHD to outsider (good) or (evil), and any other traits could be outsourced to those types and subtypes).

An argument against this is the narrative expressivity of being able to give a creature or character additional powers without increasing their combat modifiers.

In short, LA is needed to have monsters be designed without equipment or other PC resources, as I've gone over before in the LA reassignment threads with how Natural Armor has a habit of breaking things. By the basic rules of how monster PCs work, the monster will be designed to broadly approximate a PC function by its baseline statistics, then you get to add all PC functions on top of that. You'd have to map monster statistics to item slots (which admittedly could be reused all over the place) and completely revamp the RHD system to solve all the bloat sources to even consider having anything like an Aranea be playable without LA.

[Elves]

to even consider having anything like an Aranea be playable without LA.

1) NA and stats can be monster class features, 2) not every monster would need to be playable from 1st, but you would solely use RHD to determine level-equivalency.

[Gruftzwerg]

Edit: I'm actually somewhat looking at the breakdown of how highly-optimized uberchargers overkill Great Wyrm Dragons 70% of the time or whatever, so as to work out template design that can replace portions of their math directly without directly enabling even worse from having at least one hoop to be a new multiplier. Same goes for other common dips, like just what Totemist 2 opens up for you to judge how much versatility an LA +2 template might be expected to give.

I can't talk much about Totemist, but I can tell you much about ubercharger builds.

When we talk about highly optimized ubercharge builds, we talk about immense dmg where each (!) attack will kill any enemy several level higher than you. Pounce just serves the purpose to kill more enemies per turn.

The interesting part about ubercharger optimization is that it combines all available resources (class, feats, items). Compare it with T1 optimization which for the most part ignores the "items" resource and is more dependent on class lvl and feats.

While Power Attack + Shock Trooper and its boosts are often used, the most notable dmg boosts are charge multiplier. And the sources for them are scattered all over the place:

- Lances
- Spirited Charge feat (only when mounted)
- Riding Boots (only with Lances & Spirited Charge together)
- Diving charge with slashing/pircing weapon (needs fly)
- Valorous weapon enhancement
- Tiger Leap Sandals (works only with unarmed strike)

Depending on your weapon choice, you can build up to x6 charge damage multipliers.

Emulating this for other things is questionable since as you can see most of the sources are magic items here.

And if you want to increase your chances to kill anything (Great Wyrm) within the first round you need high mobility and a way to deal with possible AoO when charging.
Tumble is the simplest option. Which can be boosted by 2lvl of Drunken Master to get "stagger". Stagger allows to avoid all AoO while charging for a single DC15 Tumble and further allows to change directions while charging (charge every turn in every space: go back & forth or make a looping if you can fly).
Getting Reach yourself is another option.
Mounted charging with the feat chain is another option here.

If you want to see actual builds, have a look at my Clawlock or Papa Smurf builds in my signature as example. They should be easily able to finish of the great wyrm in 1-2 hit in their first turn.
Then there are ranged ubercharger builds with dips into Bloodstorm Blade. They tend to do a bit less dmg but are safer due to distance/range. Have a look at my Hammerdin or ShurikeNado builds if you should be interested into this topic.

[Fizban]

One of the largest issues with Templates in D&D 3.5 is that very few of them scale, and even fewer scale well. So I'm wondering how the value of the common dips, like Totemist 2 or the Initiator classes, goes up over time to have benchmarks for how one might design or alter templates to scale in a similar fashion. For instance, Whirling Frenzy will typically give +3 damage per hit, +2 AC, +2 to Reflex saves, and one additional attack to a melee character in one encounter each day, while the compatible Spirit Lion Totem trades the movement speed bump for Pounce, which itself scales based on your level via BAB in enabling extra attacks on the charge. It also gives you slightly more health than your normal levels, due to the d12 hit die.

In most of the build stubs I've seen, the Barbarian dip is actually quite marginal when taken, as it's usually before iterative attacks kick in so Pounce is doing nothing at all for several levels unless you Whirling Frenzy. But at level 16, a Pounce without Whirling Frenzy will obliterate a great many monsters in one round, even before Shock Trooper lets you throw in a full Power Attack without sacrificing accuracy.

You've hit the nail on the head: the most poweful dips are those that give extra attacks and enable you to consistently use those extra attacks, because attack damage and extra attacks are always improving and multiplying together. The Barbarian dip, particularly with Whirling Frenzy, and even moreso with pounce added, is the perfect and in some ways really the only example. The only thing I can think of off the top that compares at all is Cleric swapping for Law and Travel Devotion.

Martial adept dips could actually be considered pretty tame by comparison, since the maneuvers gained are static, and the prerequisites mean that there is a limit on just what they provide. Most maneuvers don't multiply.

Incarnum dips don't do all that much on their own. Sure, Incarnum has some natural scaling because essentia capacity goes up based on HD, but you still need to get those essentia points to assign, which means race pick and/or feats. And getting anything but the weakest of binds costs more feats. There is either a very specific ability that happens to be available within dip range, or there isn't (and if it's a base meld ability, you could get it for a feat instead). Simply checking all the base and least bind abilities will tell you what is available. I don't recall anything that really multiplied (auto-scaled) worth noting from my own use of the class.

I understand this perfectly well, the point of making the thread is asking about the nearest comparison point to pin down how much scaling to give, to then use that to inform some homebrew ideas I've been bogged down in. The thing about RHD RAI is a very noteworthy matter for keeping the wording correct, and narrowing the scope of readily-applicable concepts, but again, that's for Homebrew Design, this is asking about how 3.5 is before looking at making some changes and additions.

So to clarify, you basically want a list of all the most powerful dips and how they work, so you can write LA templates to match?

[NigelWalmsley]

1) NA and stats can be monster class features, 2) not every monster would need to be playable from 1st, but you would solely use RHD to determine level-equivalency.

Not even RHD. Just use CR. A Fire Giant has 15 HD, but is in no way equivalent to a 15th level character (let alone the 19th level character one is apparently supposed to be). CR is, by and large, a pretty good equivalent to level, particularly because of how poorly monsters typically scale once they start taking levels.

[Morphic tide]

1) NA and stats can be monster class features, 2) not every monster would need to be playable from 1st, but you would solely use RHD to determine level-equivalency.

The reason I bring up Aranea is because it's a racial spellcaster with Sorcerer level = RHD. It is in fact one of the few monsters with a Challenge Rating exceeding its hit dice, meaning the game designers think it is a match for a lone 4th level character as an encounter. A static RHD = ECL disallows this sort of monster design, because any relative "glass cannon" needs its Constitution or HD size tanked to actually be appropriate for its level. It forces you to mess around with a lot of variables to line up the RHD, ECL, and CR. You'd need to start with overhauling what RHD even are to be able to do this kind of balancing.

We are not talking about independent variables, here, items are assumed by much of the game to give different things to class levels. If you decide the inbuilt item-like bonuses are much of the monster budget, they still become broken because they can still double-dip to end up breaking saving throws and armor class, they just end up toothless meatshields. Getting an extra +10 AC inherently screws up the game because you turn even odds into a near-certain miss and near certainty into a coin-toss. And of course having it take budget out of class features means that monsters need carefully level bloated to actually be appropriate challenges.

I can't talk much about Totemist, but I can tell you much about ubercharger builds.

When we talk about highly optimized ubercharge builds, we talk about immense dmg where each (!) attack will kill any enemy several level higher than you. Pounce just serves the purpose to kill more enemies per turn.

The interesting part about ubercharger optimization is that it combines all available resources (class, feats, items). Compare it with T1 optimization which for the most part ignores the "items" resource and is more dependent on class lvl and feats.

While Power Attack + Shock Trooper and its boosts are often used, the most notable dmg boosts are charge multiplier. And the sources for them are scattered all over the place:

*snip*

Depending on your weapon choice, you can build up to x6 charge damage multipliers.

Emulating this for other things is questionable since as you can see most of the sources are magic items here.

...Did not realize there were that many Charge multipliers. Which is the exact sort of optimization I'm looking for to get starting points for where the numbers are coming from, to replace class level contributions. An issue with the builds you make is that you don't seem to break down the per-level damage, meaning that it needs reverse-engineered, which is the exact tedium I'm wanting to avoid by asking the Playground at large because you have to go over every level one at a time and address WBL and make sure you have the feat interactions down and verify prerequisites...

Using the PF1e Automatic Bonus Progression as a proxy works, but does not particularly represent how we tend to build up 3.5 characters because there's so much more room to specialize with actual items to get completely ridiculous, and you still have to go hunting down the item properties. Not to mention the qualitative changes with mobility and immunities.

So to clarify, you basically want a list of all the most powerful dips and how they work, so you can write LA templates to match?

Specifically what part of the math in the end build they tend to make up, so as to make LA templates that perform the same function of that component of the builds. Whether that be why Totemist 2 is highly valued versatility, why Swordsage 1 at level 13 is a sizable power spike to all sorts of builds, or just figuring out a Pounce replacement that won't multiply with Pounce. This ultimately does not need to compound with every later tool of optimization, but should be very obvious consideration over the dip-fest class levels.

[Gruftzwerg]

...Did not realize there were that many Charge multipliers. Which is the exact sort of optimization I'm looking for to get starting points for where the numbers are coming from, to replace class level contributions. An issue with the builds you make is that you don't seem to break down the per-level damage, meaning that it needs reverse-engineered, which is the exact tedium I'm wanting to avoid by asking the Playground at large because you have to go over every level one at a time and address WBL and make sure you have the feat interactions down and verify prerequisites...

Using the PF1e Automatic Bonus Progression as a proxy works, but does not particularly represent how we tend to build up 3.5 characters because there's so much more room to specialize with actual items to get completely ridiculous, and you still have to go hunting down the item properties. Not to mention the qualitative changes with mobility and immunities.

You can only make number break downs for each specific build itself and then compare the results...
3.5 just doesn't work that way. The problem is that we have 3 optimization disciplines when you go for max power:
1) maximum power possible at max lvl (20 in most chases)
2) maximum power at a certain lvl (E6 is a good example of this. Just look at all those crazy lvl 6 builds)
3) maximum power by lvl (less seen in the forums and more in actual low lvl campaign plays, where you don't expect to go beyond lvl 3-5)

edit: this makes a breakdown for overall uberchargers imho impossible.

edit2: Another thing I wanted to mention is the combination of multipliers with flat dmg bonuses. Depending on the build you either just focus multipliers or try to combine em with flat dmg sources (often used if your chosen weapon lacks extra multiplier options). Power Attack boosts (Combat Brute, Frenzied Berserker, ...) and flat charge boost (charge maneuvers and stance from Tome of Battle) are the main choices here.