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Thread: Druid Grove

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    Default Druid Grove

    What does becoming great druid means?

    I'm searching for the series of powers you would be acquiring by becoming a great druid. Is there any reference/sourcebook available anywhere? Speaking specifically about AD&D, also known (I guess) as 2nd Edition D&D rules.

    Cheers.

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    Default Re: Druid Grove

    Have you looked in The Complete Druid's Handbook?

    I have not, so I can't say for sure if the info you're looking for is in there, but it's probably a good place to start.
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    Default Re: Druid Grove

    The Great Druid was really a 1st Ed concept (Unearthed Arcana).

    Druid 14 was the original 1st Ed maximum druid level
    This was changed to the maximum for an area (country I think) with one grand Druid over all of them
    The grand druid got very little in the way of extras - they came at druid 16...
    Druid 16 to 23 was Heirophant druids who had retired from being Grand druid and no longer had number limitations - they also got some fun extra powers.
    E.g. the ability to travel 7th dimension probability lines (or something like that - what it meant was never explained that I saw).

    So I think 2nd Ed references to the Great/Grand Druid are a hang-over from 1st Ed.
    Last edited by Khedrac; 2021-03-03 at 08:30 AM.

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    I will try to take a look at the complete druid handbook. Thanks for the heads up.

    Issue is, is that one of my players told me that being a great druid means having a nifty amount of stuff, including immortality. Basically, if he reaches level 14, he can try to seize control of the druid grove (provided that there is a vacant post)..

    so, if you say that level 16 is the important "step", where did you read about it? Druid handbook? Let me know.

    I'm there asking if there was a set of powers well described, what the DM should do, and what's the impact of having a great druid on a party (if there is one at all).
    Going through dimensions sound okay, but I doubt my players would be interested into that - after the amount of deaths suffered by the party, feeling immortal would unburden one of my players for sure.
    Last edited by Entessa; 2021-03-03 at 09:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Druid Grove

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    so, if you say that level 16 is the important "step", where did you read about it? Druid handbook? Let me know.
    Everything I mentioned is 1st Ed Unearthed Arcana while the Complete X Handbooks are 2nd Ed.
    My memory says that 2nd Ed completely re-wrote druids - they became more of a nature themed cleric following a variant of the cleric rules (not something that was true in 1st Ed) and I think they removed the level caps.

    I suspect your player is confusing 1st and 2nd Ed, but they may have put a lot of the druid specials back into 2nd Ed in the Complete Druid Handbook (I think I stopped collecting 2nd Ed before it came out) so it's a good place to look. If you don't find it then go to the 1st Ed UA and be prepared to tell your player they have got their editions confused.

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    Default Re: Druid Grove

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    Issue is, is that one of my players told me that being a great druid means having a nifty amount of stuff, including immortality. Basically, if he reaches level 14, he can try to seize control of the druid grove (provided that there is a vacant post)..
    Ok, that is inaccurate.

    The Great Druid (14th level) mostly gets power within the religious organization and some underlings... he's 14th level priest, and is likely in charge of a grove, and has 3 11th level druids as his subordinates. He is just as mortal as any other 14th level priest (which should be "not much"), and is in charge of a geographic region (so, he's in charge of the High Forest or the Mere of Dead Men... this "region" is left somewhat vague).

    The Grand Druid is in charge of all druids on a world (I'd be inclined to limit this to continent), and gets a bit more niftiness. Their underlings are 13th level, plus they have leadership over the Great Druids, and they have 6 spells per spell level, and 6 levels of bonus spells (so, six 1st level spells, 1 additional 6th level spell, etc.) instead of the usual advancement. They have 9 servitors, 3 of which are 13th level, the others of which can be any level, and don't interact with normal heirarchy (want your PC to not have to fight for levels? He serves the Grand Druid).

    At 16th level, when they become heirophants, they aren't subject to aging modifiers (I would still give them Int and Wisdom boosts, but their body is hale as a mature adult), but they don't get immortality.
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    Okay thanks, so bear with me:

    1) Basically, it is not true that the great druid becomes linked to the grove and from the grove he now acquires great newfound powers including immortality. Got it.

    2) I've got another CE player in my party that made a really specific question: he wants to drain the druid grove and put the power it has into an item.

    a) How would you do it, and what kind of power should the item have?

    b) I surely think such an act would cause ripples on the territory. During the drain, which kind of creatures would try to defend the grove? Would dragons nearby actually feel what is happening? Should I just make it so that only the spirit of the grove appears?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    Okay thanks, so bear with me:

    1) Basically, it is not true that the great druid becomes linked to the grove and from the grove he now acquires great newfound powers including immortality. Got it.
    Unless this is a specific property of that grove, it is not true. (A neat aspect of pyramids in Rifts is that any True Atlantean who sleeps in there does for a year gets one year added to their lifespan; you might make THAT a property of the grove, so that the keeper DOES age, just a lot more slowly)

    2) I've got another CE player in my party that made a really specific question: he wants to drain the druid grove and put the power it has into an item.

    a) How would you do it, and what kind of power should the item have?

    b) I surely think such an act would cause ripples on the territory. During the drain, which kind of creatures would try to defend the grove? Would dragons nearby actually feel what is happening? Should I just make it so that only the spirit of the grove appears?
    That's a DM call, and somewhat depends on the nature of the world. However, I'm reminded of the FR novel "Darkwell", where the god Bane does something similar to a "Moonwell", which sits at the center of many sacred groves in the Moonshaes. He pollutes the well with poisoned corpses, including the corpses of several druids, and subverts it to his own purposes. But he's a god, and one more powerful than the Earthmother who creates the wells (kinda; it's complicated).

    For a mortal? I would think that you'd do it by setting up some sort of attractor in the area... like a lightning rod linked to a capacitator... then more or less force the grove to try and defend itself... burn it or something similar, while the lightning rod soaks up that power and puts it into the item. At least, that's the first that comes to mind.

    As for what will come to defend it? Look at Summon Nature's Ally and Conjure Animals. Nymphs, dryads, unicorns... mundane and fantastic animals that are more or less neutral or good, or would otherwise have positive interactions with the grove (like, I can see a Green Dragon leaving the grove alone, for its own purposes). I don't think dragons would innately sense that there is a problem with the grove, however, unless you want them to.
    Last edited by Mark Hall; 2021-03-04 at 10:52 AM.
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    Thanks really a lot. I read the feedback of each one of you, so I'm going to ask a lot of questions because I'm a beginner DM and this kind of stuff is pretty new to me.

    1)The grove is inhabitated by shadow druids and the players have three choices:

    a) Try to challenge the great druid of the grove (if the player is a druid with the required levels)
    b) Apply a potent poison on the grove waters, so that the grove itself starts to decay and the link to all the druids gets cut at once. Given that the players involved are strong and well known in the territory and the fact that these druids have been using wild animals to attack a nearby city, they would flee as soon as they feel their link is cut.
    c) Apply a poison gently offered (behind payment) by vampires. I would say undead are the best kind of partners to ask for such an evil act, considered that they are the pervertion of nature itself. So the best thing would be asking them for help. The vampires would give him the players another poison, and when that one is used on the waters of the grove, the druids feel that something horribly wrong has transpired, but do not understand what happened.
    In this case, they would probably either turn on the players, or flee, but the grove itself would be now be in the status where the players could ask the undead to go through with their ritual.

    Does the general concept seem alright to you?


    2) Would making the players actually try to chain the spirit of the grove itself be a good idea? I mean, would you find it cheesy that I actually make it so that the spirit of the grove, personification of the power of the grove himself, appears?

    3) How would I make it so that the spirit of the grove appears? Apart from polluting the waters, I donít have any idea on which acts the players could do. Should I leave this kind of details to the undead ritual and avoid the player from doing chores?

    4) I would think that chaining the spirit of the grove would surely send ripples over the territory. Creatures would appear and I think that in this case, I could even make a dragon appear, because the spirit would have called him.
    The ritual would happen in a cave, but the dragon wouldnít be able to enter. So I will make it so that the dragon starts collapsing the cavern itself. Note that the dragon would be bloodlusted.Which kind of dragon would actually appear?


    5) Should I offer a way out for the players in this case? I think they would have gone a little too far.

    6) Would the dragon agree leaving the players if they leave the undeads there?

    7) Should the undead actually backstab the players for the power of the item itself?

    8) What kind of items should players get? I would aim for an endgame one honestly.
    But I donít even know what kind of items I should give and if it should even provide malus. Suggestions? Is there anywhere a source of evil items I could get inspired from?

    9) Question, probably a really odd one. What if a druid consorted with these undead to actually corrupt the grove? Would he get corrupt, would he lose his power?

    10.1) What if that druid is actually a demigod? Would he lose his powers? He is the child of an Evil God (Bhaal) and he doesnít care about the wellbeing of the grove. He cares only about power and wants to imbue an armor with the spirit of the grove spirit.

    11) Another odd idea: would it be cheesy if the vampires use the essence on the Bhaalspawn to actually drain the grove? How would it go?

    12) What if my player tell me they want their own characters imbued with the power itself of the grove? Which perks should they get? Improved hp ? Attributes?
    Last edited by Entessa; 2021-03-04 at 12:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Druid Grove

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    Does the general concept seem alright to you?
    Sounds good to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    2) Would making the players actually try to chain the spirit of the grove itself be a good idea? I mean, would you find it cheesy that I actually make it so that the spirit of the grove, personification of the power of the grove himself, appears?
    I don't think it would be cheesy. In fact, perhaps that is what the ritual does--gives the spirit of the grove personification, so that someone could abuse or even kill it, thus harming or destroying the grove, as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    3) How would I make it so that the spirit of the grove appears? Apart from polluting the waters, I donít have any idea on which acts the players could do. Should I leave this kind of details to the undead ritual and avoid the player from doing chores?
    Aside from my idea above, really the PCs can just do anything that is overall environmentally unfriendly--pollute the waters, cut down trees, harm local wildlife, dig up flowers--basically, just act like a villain from Captain Planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    4) I would think that chaining the spirit of the grove would surely send ripples over the territory. Creatures would appear and I think that in this case, I could even make a dragon appear, because the spirit would have called him.
    The ritual would happen in a cave, but the dragon wouldnít be able to enter. So I will make it so that the dragon starts collapsing the cavern itself. Note that the dragon would be bloodlusted.Which kind of dragon would actually appear?
    Most sacred groves have some kind of guardians; treants, pixies, shambling mounds, etc. Anyone one of those could come to the grove's defense.

    As for dragons, depends on alignment. Green dragons live in forests, if you want an evil one. Jade and Amber dragons also live in forests, if you want neutral ones. As far as I know, no good dragons are exclusively found in forests, but gold dragons can live anywhere, so it's possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    5) Should I offer a way out for the players in this case? I think they would have gone a little too far.
    Maybe there's another exit from the cave the party can take, if they feel things are too hot and they need to escape? Can even plan a mini-adventure going through the cave (maybe it passes through the underdark or something, and they have to fight their way through).

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    6) Would the dragon agree leaving the players if they leave the undeads there?
    Like, "Give me the vampires, and I'll let you live" sort of thing? It's possible the dragon might see the undead as the bigger threat. It would probably depend on what type of dragon it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    7) Should the undead actually backstab the players for the power of the item itself?
    If they see an opportunity to get what they want and the players get nothing? Absolutely, if they think they can get away with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    8) What kind of items should players get? I would aim for an endgame one honestly.
    But I donít even know what kind of items I should give and if it should even provide malus. Suggestions? Is there anywhere a source of evil items I could get inspired from?
    Like, from the dragon if they defeat it? They'd need to track down its lair and find its horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    9) Question, probably a really odd one. What if a druid consorted with these undead to actually corrupt the grove? Would he get corrupt, would he lose his power?
    If you haven't already, read the sixth chapter in The Complete Druid's Handbook. It is all about sacred groves, and does talk about defiling/cursing them. It mentions that if a druid strays from their alignment, it may corrupt the grove, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    10.1) What if that druid is actually a demigod? Would he lose his powers? He is the child of an Evil God (Bhaal) and he doesnít care about the wellbeing of the grove. He cares only about power and wants to imbue an armor with the spirit of the grove spirit.
    As far as I remember, bhaalspawn still lose their powers if they stray from their alignment for specific classes. A paladin bhaalspawn will still fall from grace if they commit a chaotic or evil act, for instance. So, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    11) Another odd idea: would it be cheesy if the vampires use the essence on the Bhaalspawn to actually drain the grove? How would it go?
    The great thing about bhaalspawn is there isn't all that much known about them. So that could certainly be a thing. Bhaal is the god of murder, so I imagine any ritual that involves a bhaalspawn's essence would involve lots of death. Maybe killing every animal in the area, or something like that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    12) What if my player tell me they want their own characters imbued with the power itself of the grove? Which perks should they get? Improved hp ? Attributes?
    The aforementioned sixth chapter in the Druid's Handbook categorizes sacred groves into 'lesser' and 'greater' and it lists powers for either. You could probably find some good ideas for perks based on those powers.

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    Like, from the dragon if they defeat it? They'd need to track down its lair and find its horde.
    1) From the Dragon they would take at best the scales and maybe his blood. Actually I think I could use the blood in the ritual itself to strengthen the ritual or as an alternative payment to the vampires if the players care about gold.

    Your lair idea: how would I make the players realize where is the lair of the creature? Right now, I would think that maybe the spirit of the grove could actually tell them in exchange for being left alone (would he believe their lies? I feel like if desperate enough the answer would be yes).

    Would they find eggs of a dragon there? Or is it going to become too convoluted?



    2) I was wondering the properties of items the players would get out of binding the spirit of the nature in an item.

    The things is, I was kinda ďundecidedĒ on good items (thatís why I was looking around for a table where I could compare low-level items to high-level-items)..

    Anyway, I checked the druid handbook and if the player asked to upgrade themselves, rather than pouring the spirit in an item, I would go for:

    > Improved Regeneration (doubled effect of Regeneration) or/and doubled healing.
    > +X hp
    > +improved defense against natural elements
    > Any animals that attack the bearer of the Spirit of the druid now has to suffer against saving throw/fear. Or should I make it so that every creatures apart from some types (e.g Demons suffer from it)?
    > Whoever attacks the players suffers from magical poison effect (3d6, cumulable, saving throw denies the effect, -X penalty)
    > any other suggestions?


    If you haven't already, read the sixth chapter in The Complete Druid's Handbook. It is all about sacred groves, and does talk about defiling/cursing them. It mentions that if a druid strays from their alignment, it may corrupt the grove, yes.
    3) This answer makes me doubtful. What I mean is, if the druid does such an act, why wouldnít he lose his powers? Is it all related to alignment? Thatís why I was asking.


    4) What if the players do not want an item, but want to siphon the power of the grove into an item to resurrect a creature, e.g Kazgaroth: can't post links, but search on google if you don't know what it is.

    Would it be enough to actually resurrect such a strong creature? I would think that doing so would require more than a simple essence of a grove.
    Maybe if they find a temple of Bhaal or they get some informations from the spirit about a corruptable moonwell somewhere, or are we going into ultrafantasy status?

    Also, letís imagine they are able to resurrect Kazgaroth. Wouldnít he turn against everyone ? At best I can imagine he could detect one of them is a Bhaalspawn, but I donít even know if it would be for naught.

    I guess Kazgaroth is going to turn on them without any reasonable alternative?

    Or maybe they could beat it and Kazgaroth could either yield (really really doubtful) and could be called in time of danger to help the Bhaalspawn by simply thinking about the fact that he has to appear, or maybe they could skin it and get from his body magical artefacts.

    Another odd idea, if I don't want Kazgaroth to turn into everyone is that I could make it so that to stay alive he needs a link and that links is the Bhaalspawn essence. To be resurrected, one could use the gem with the spirit of the grove, but to actually live, the Bhaalspawn would have to link Kazgaroth to his essence, with also the issues that stems from that. Would Kazgaroth be unkillable until the Bhaalspawn dies? That's the question.
    Last edited by Entessa; 2021-03-05 at 07:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    Your lair idea: how would I make the players realize where is the lair of the creature? Right now, I would think that maybe the spirit of the grove could actually tell them in exchange for being left alone (would he believe their lies? I feel like if desperate enough the answer would be yes).

    Would they find eggs of a dragon there? Or is it going to become too convoluted?
    Do any of the PCs have tracking? If not, then yeah, having the spirit of the grove give it up could work.

    As for eggs, depends on the type of dragon. Check the MM entry; sometimes it gives a percentage on what the odds are eggs might be present, or a mate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    2) I was wondering the properties of items the players would get out of binding the spirit of the nature in an item.

    The things is, I was kinda ďundecidedĒ on good items (thatís why I was looking around for a table where I could compare low-level items to high-level-items)..

    Anyway, I checked the druid handbook and if the player asked to upgrade themselves, rather than pouring the spirit in an item, I would go for:

    > Improved Regeneration (doubled effect of Regeneration) or/and doubled healing.
    > +X hp
    > +improved defense against natural elements
    > Any animals that attack the bearer of the Spirit of the druid now has to suffer against saving throw/fear. Or should I make it so that every creatures apart from some types (e.g Demons suffer from it)?
    > Whoever attacks the players suffers from magical poison effect (3d6, cumulable, saving throw denies the effect, -X penalty)
    > any other suggestions?
    Maybe some druidic abilities, or if they are already druids, improved abilities: Shapechange, Immunity to woodland creature charms, or even the ability to use a druidic spell once a day, like Entangle, Charm Animal, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    3) This answer makes me doubtful. What I mean is, if the druid does such an act, why wouldnít he lose his powers? Is it all related to alignment? Thatís why I was asking.
    It ties into alignment, yes. The reasoning is that a druid must be True Neutral, because to be any other alignment means putting something else before protecting nature. Thus, an evil person would always put their own interests first, and a good person would always put other people's interests first. A lawful person would be more interested in order and stability, and a chaotic person would be more interested in freedom and change. True Neutral is the 'balance' between the alignments.

    If a druid fails to maintain that balance, they have failed in their duties and would likely lose their powers as a result, in the same way that a cleric who goes against their deities' ethos would.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    4) What if the players do not want an item, but want to siphon the power of the grove into an item to resurrect a creature, e.g Kazgaroth: can't post links, but search on google if you don't know what it is.

    Would it be enough to actually resurrect such a strong creature? I would think that doing so would require more than a simple essence of a grove.
    Maybe if they find a temple of Bhaal or they get some informations from the spirit about a corruptable moonwell somewhere, or are we going into ultrafantasy status?

    Also, letís imagine they are able to resurrect Kazgaroth. Wouldnít he turn against everyone ? At best I can imagine he could detect one of them is a Bhaalspawn, but I donít even know if it would be for naught.

    I guess Kazgaroth is going to turn on them without any reasonable alternative?

    Or maybe they could beat it and Kazgaroth could either yield (really really doubtful) and could be called in time of danger to help the Bhaalspawn by simply thinking about the fact that he has to appear, or maybe they could skin it and get from his body magical artefacts.

    Another odd idea, if I don't want Kazgaroth to turn into everyone is that I could make it so that to stay alive he needs a link and that links is the Bhaalspawn essence. To be resurrected, one could use the gem with the spirit of the grove, but to actually live, the Bhaalspawn would have to link Kazgaroth to his essence, with also the issues that stems from that. Would Kazgaroth be unkillable until the Bhaalspawn dies? That's the question.
    I suppose it depends on how big and powerful this grove is. I suppose if it was particularly strong, it could revive Kazgaroth. I believe that Kazgaroth and Bhaal do have a history together, so it's possible it might recognize a Bhaalspawn. But as Kazgaroth is Chaotic Evil, I don't think it would really agree to serve anyone, unless doing so somehow furthered its own agenda.

    As for your last question, I'm not sure. I suppose that would be up to you. Maybe it would work like Dragonheart, where Kazgaroth is unkillable unless the Bhaalspawn dies. Or maybe it would be a Demona/MacBeth thing from Gargoyles, where neither can die permanently, but the other always feels the other's pain, and the only way they can die is if they kill each other.

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    Default Re: Druid Grove

    Thank you JadedDM.

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    I didn't catch this bit until just now:
    Quote Originally Posted by Entessa View Post
    Speaking specifically about AD&D, also known (I guess) as 2nd Edition D&D rules.
    Just to clarify a bit, there is Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition. They are similar, but not exactly the same.

    2nd Edition cleaned up the initiative and surprise rules, changed the spells available to the various spellcasting classes, and made changes to most of the character classes. Some people like 1st edition better, while others prefer 2nd Edition. I don't think this difference will have much impact on your situation with Druid Groves, however.
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