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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Simple question that i figured had a simple answer that ended up devolving into a ridiculous discussion: when crafting magic items, are you casting a spell when you begin the craftin for the day or does "trigger" mean something different as the books suggest?




    relevant passage present in the crafting sections

    Quote Originally Posted by srd creatine magic items
    The act of working on the (item) triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armorís creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)
    bolded part for generality amongst item to avoid confusion
    Last edited by Raishoiken; 2021-03-03 at 04:49 PM.

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    I was always under the impression that the crafter more infused the spell into the item as he worked.
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by aglondier View Post
    I was always under the impression that the crafter more infused the spell into the item as he worked.
    that's what seems to be implied. i may update the OP with the relevant passage of contention

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    There's ways in which it's different from casting:

    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItem...MagicItems.htm

    If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the weapon triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the weaponís creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

    So it's pretty clear that you are not actually casting those spells each day you work on the item.
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    The fact that the quoted part says the spells are used up "as if they had been cast" certainly implies they aren't actually cast.

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    A. There is no actual difference to the game however you decide it. That slot is used up for the day, and we don't have any details about what the crafter is actually doing for eight hours.

    B. Anything not defined in the rules is a judgment call for the DM.

    C. My call would be that the process of creating the item requires a slow (several hour long) release of the energy of the spell into the item each day, which is a very different process from casting the spell, which is usually a standard action, taking less than six seconds.

    D. As Korzybski said, "A difference which makes no difference is no difference."

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    That's an interesting question though. Can the maker of a scroll for example, pay the casting material cost of the spell while the scroll is being made? Like a Raise Dead scroll that already has the 5k gold diamond already incorporated into the scroll?

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    I was part of the original discussion about warlocks imbue item ability where this one of the mayor points of the discussion. I missed this thread at first glance and thus will quote part of my answer from the other thread for easier read in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg
    Quote Originally Posted by Primary Source Rule
    ... The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the Dungeon Master's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The Dungeon Master's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. ...
    "Casting a Spell" sets a general rule when you want to use spells. And there are only 2 options that can alter this:
    a) mentioning an explicit rule change/update that is like Rules Compendium, Draconomicon or Errata as examples.
    b) make explicit call outs for specific rules that only apply in a niche
    If you want to use Spells in any way, the "Casting a Spell" rule is the gatekeeper. SLAs alter the component (V,S,M,F,XP) rules. Spell trigger items do the same. And crafting is in no way special worded that it denies the status that a spell cast is triggered here. It doesn't need to mention that it is still a spell cast. PSR demands that it needs to deny it clearly to make your interpretation plausible.

    I'll try to give a real life "light switch" example here for "trigger":
    Imagine a light switch (cast) for a light bulb (spell) that you can use actively as "normal" (general) and that can also be "triggered" passively (specific) via the daylight (when it becomes dark).
    Unless the "trigger" has some special functions (explicit specific exceptions), you expect the switch to work as intended.
    It is still "triggering" the light switch (cast) that activates the light bulb (spell).

    As said, a trigger only does what you would normally expect as outcome, unless specific exceptions are called out (and build in^^). And so far the crafting rules only show how parts of "casting a spell" gets altered, but it never denies its status as spell cast. And it doesn't define a new status either. There is no explicit mentioning of that (or did I miss any crafting specific definition paragraph about "trigger" anywhere? kindly asking here).
    Imho this shows that by RAW crafting rules still obey the "casting spells" rule and just alters em for their niche. But it still counts as altered "Casting Spells". The warlocks "Imbue Item" ability says "... the warlock can create the item as if he had cast the required spell", which confirms my reading that anything that uses spells behaves under the "Casting Spells"-rules, even if in altered form.

    PS: in the quote I say "casting a spell" but the actual title is "Casting Spells" as in the link & phb. sorry, it is still early in the morning here ;)
    Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-03-04 at 01:30 AM.
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta_tea View Post
    That's an interesting question though. Can the maker of a scroll for example, pay the casting material cost of the spell while the scroll is being made? Like a Raise Dead scroll that already has the 5k gold diamond already incorporated into the scroll?
    They must do so.
    A raise dead scroll has it's creation cost increased by the material component.


    As for the original poster: What are you trying to exploit with the ruling? That would help us work out what rules cover it.

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    The warlocks "Imbue Item" ability says "... the warlock can create the item as if he had cast the required spell", which confirms my reading that anything that uses spells behaves under the "Casting Spells"-rules, even if in altered form.
    You've argued that "can be used as a weapon" is not "is a weapon".
    can be used as "ranged weapon != "is/are/counts as" weapon
    So why not "As if casting a spell != casting a spell"?
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-03-04 at 01:59 AM.
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    You've argued that "can be used as a weapon" is not "is a weapon".


    So why not "As if casting a spell != casting a spell"?

    The "can be used as a weapon" is part of a specific rule within the general "weapon" rules.

    In this chase "Casting Spells" is the general rule which you are arguing against. When two rules interact, you need to know the relationship between those two rules. Which one is general and which one is specific. With that you can solve the interaction where one may suppress the other or gets suppressed itself.

    I agree that "as if casting a spell != casting a spell". That doesn't affect my argument in this situation at all.
    I just enforce the Primary Source Rule that demands that anything "spell" related has to follow the general "Casting Spells" rule or alter it. Imbue Item, Scrolls, Wands, Crafting, SLA all of em use altered "Casting Spell" rules. None of them claims that it isn't a spell cast anymore. They don't give it a special name to define another category to active spells besides from "Casting Spells". As such, we have to assume that they just alter the "Casting Spell" rules and that they are still casting spells.

    E.g. You use Power Attack (specific). Does your "Power Attack" stop counting as a "normal" attack (general) now? No, because it never touched that topic. With that in mind, can you show me any rule text that says that crafting, SLA or spell trigger items say anything that they stop counting as spell cast?

    edit: Have a look at the Counterspell rules:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD: How Counterspells Work
    To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell.
    Do you wanna imply that you can't counterspell SLA, wands, rods and other spell trigger items? Do you really think/imply that those things aren't "Casting Spells" anymore? I hope not ;)
    Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-03-04 at 02:56 AM.
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Only footnote: it's explicit for runes that the creation time is 10 minutes plus the casting time of the spell. But then runes are explicitly spells cast as magical writing, so that's different from the normal run of magic items.

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by GeoffWatson View Post
    They must do so.
    A raise dead scroll has it's creation cost increased by the material component.


    As for the original poster: What are you trying to exploit with the ruling? That would help us work out what rules cover it.
    Im not trying to exploit anything. Just tryinf to see if more than one person agrees with the stance taken below


    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    The "can be used as a weapon" is part of a specific rule within the general "weapon" rules.

    In this chase "Casting Spells" is the general rule which you are arguing against. When two rules interact, you need to know the relationship between those two rules. Which one is general and which one is specific. With that you can solve the interaction where one may suppress the other or gets suppressed itself.

    I agree that "as if casting a spell != casting a spell". That doesn't affect my argument in this situation at all.
    I just enforce the Primary Source Rule that demands that anything "spell" related has to follow the general "Casting Spells" rule or alter it. Imbue Item, Scrolls, Wands, Crafting, SLA all of em use altered "Casting Spell" rules. None of them claims that it isn't a spell cast anymore. They don't give it a special name to define another category to active spells besides from "Casting Spells". As such, we have to assume that they just alter the "Casting Spell" rules and that they are still casting spells.

    E.g. You use Power Attack (specific). Does your "Power Attack" stop counting as a "normal" attack (general) now? No, because it never touched that topic. With that in mind, can you show me any rule text that says that crafting, SLA or spell trigger items say anything that they stop counting as spell cast?

    edit: Have a look at the Counterspell rules:

    Do you wanna imply that you can't counterspell SLA, wands, rods and other spell trigger items? Do you really think/imply that those things aren't "Casting Spells" anymore? I hope not ;)
    First of all, yes, im pretty aure you cant counterspell magic itema. Can you show me a rule that says you can?
    Also, can you show me a rule that says in ordee to use a spell in any fashion that you must refer to casting a spell rules?
    Also, you literally cannot continue to say that the craftin rules dont say you aren't casting a spell when several people now have literally proven you explicitly incorrect.
    If you want other people to think you're correct, addreas how our argument, as a collective no less, is wrong, rather than just saying "but primary source tho".

    At this point im becoming more certain that you may not be grasping the actual english of the rules for some reason. Either that or you're juat ignoring the obvious (and by obvious i mean its been effortly concluded in a way that contradicts your side) by several people at this point


    But you must be the only person who understands the rules it seems and everyone else is getting it wrong?

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    I don't see the difference. Is there some sort of loophole you are trying to jump through?

    Why does it matter one way or the other to you?

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by smetzger View Post
    I don't see the difference. Is there some sort of loophole you are trying to jump through?

    Why does it matter one way or the other to you?
    some people think the warlocks ability means they arent actually casting the spells so they dont have to pay the exp cost of the spell when crafting something that includes the spell. ie they still have to pay the base crafting cost of exp but not any additional from the spell if it has a normal exp cost. afaik thats the debate here. rai and gruft disagree on whether they have to pay the spells base exp component or not.

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    Im not trying to exploit anything. Just tryinf to see if more than one person agrees with the stance taken below




    First of all, yes, im pretty aure you cant counterspell magic itema. Can you show me a rule that says you can?
    Also, can you show me a rule that says in ordee to use a spell in any fashion that you must refer to casting a spell rules?
    Also, you literally cannot continue to say that the craftin rules dont say you aren't casting a spell when several people now have literally proven you explicitly incorrect.
    If you want other people to think you're correct, addreas how our argument, as a collective no less, is wrong, rather than just saying "but primary source tho".

    At this point im becoming more certain that you may not be grasping the actual english of the rules for some reason. Either that or you're juat ignoring the obvious (and by obvious i mean its been effortly concluded in a way that contradicts your side) by several people at this point


    But you must be the only person who understands the rules it seems and everyone else is getting it wrong?
    RAW isn't decided my majority. Are we now voting to decide which interpretation is right?

    Casting Spells is part of the PHB. The "Primary Source for playing the game". This also includes Components rules (V,S,M,F,XP...) that you need for the cast. It is the general way described in the PHB how to use spells.

    I have shown you how anything that uses spells alter these rules (they are "targeted" by those abilities). SLA, Spell Trigger items and Crafting rules. So far you have failed to prove that they don't fall under the Casting Spells rule.

    @ smetzger
    as I said in my first post, this question did thrive from the warlocks Imbue Item ability discussion. The ability lets warlocks craft items as if they would have cast the spell. I argue that cafting still operates under altered "Casting Spells" rules with altered "Component" (V,S,M,F,XP..) rules. This leads to the conclusion that warlock bypasses all Components needed to fake a "spell being cast" with UMD, since those are a part of "Casting Spells".
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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    RAW isn't decided my majority. Are we now voting to decide which interpretation is right?

    Casting
    Spells
    is part of the PHB. The "Primary Source for playing the game". This also includes Components rules (V,S,M,F,XP...) that you need for the cast. It is the general way described in the PHB how to use spells.

    I have shown you how anything that uses spells alter these rules (they are "targeted" by those abilities). SLA, Spell Trigger items and Crafting rules. So far you have failed to prove that they don't fall under the Casting Spells rule.
    You haven't shown this. You just present the rules that govern how you cast a spell and then make a claim that those rules govern all other rules that include the use of spells in them. You have shown no reason for why those rules have anything to do with the rules for placing spells in items. They are different rules that literally say you're doing different things (trigger vs cast). Even if you were right about them just altering the casting spell rules, you would still have to deal with the fact that the "altered rule" tells you that instead of A, you are doing B.
    Instead of casting the spell, it is simply triggered instead, explicitly.


    And as to the whole "raw by majority" thing; i just sort of figured the fact that you seem to be the only one coming to this interpretation at the moment would be a decent hint that you may want to try to look at it another way


    Quote Originally Posted by smetzger View Post
    I don't see the difference. Is there some sort of loophole you are trying to jump through?

    Why does it matter one way or the other to you?
    It affects the warlock thing and really anything else having to do with interacting with spells being "Cast". Counter-spelling, concentration checks, things of the sort.
    You can pick back up on your progress when crafting an item, if someone smacks you while spellcasting and you fail a check you're SOL
    Last edited by Raishoiken; 2021-03-04 at 03:32 PM.

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    It affects the warlock thing
    I disagree with this.

    Honestly this whole discussion is not going to find consensus. The language used is completely contradictory.

    Quote Originally Posted by DMG
    If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast
    Quote Originally Posted by DMG
    If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast
    Quote Originally Posted by DMG
    If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the rod,
    the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast
    Quote Originally Posted by DMG, creating wonderous items
    If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast
    I think it could be taken either way. The terminology of imbue items implies not needing the spell components regardless of the outcome. This is the way my groups have interpreted it and will continue to do so.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    I disagree with this.

    Honestly this whole discussion is not going to find consensus. The language used is completely contradictory.









    I think it could be taken either way. The terminology of imbue items implies not needing the spell components regardless of the outcome. This is the way my groups have interpreted it and will continue to do so.



    must have "prepared the spells to be cast": this is what wizards druids and clerics do at the beginning of the day. Preparing spells in the morning is "preparing them to be cast" i would imagine

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    That's the thing, RAW doesn't care about RAI and the only actual reference for intent is under question. So, what are we doing about it here? Arguing RAI when both have RAW support. This is at the point of "discuss with DM" to determine how you are going to play.

    There will not be a definitive answer to this thread's title question if imbue item is not considered a valid source of intent. Especially, when it's functioning as an ability is at stake.

    Whether imbue item ignores components or not is separate from this.

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Depending on what kind of item you're creating, the rules for creating that item will specify additional costs. For example, the rules for scribing a scroll say that you must provide any material component that the spell requires and that if casting the spell would reduce the casterís XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself.
    The item creation rules don't seem to care if you would pay the material component cost for a spell - only that the spell requires one. If the spell requires a costly material component, you must supply that material component as an additional crafting cost to create the item.
    The item creation rules don't seem to care if you're actually casting the spell. If casting the spell would reduce the caster's XP, you pay additional XP as a crafting cost to create the item.
    You don't need to supply extra materials or additional XP for "casting" the spell; you pay them as additional crafting costs to create the item.

    Warlocks gain the ability to make a UMD check to ignore the spell requirement for item creation. Warlocks do not gain the ability to ignore parts of the item creation process other than knowing the prerequisite spell. Supplying 50 times the material component cost of a spell to craft a wand is not the cost of casting the spell - it's the cost of crafting the wand, per the wand crafting rules. They pay for material components and XP costs as a function of the item creation feat in question, not as part of "casting" the necessary spell.
    Last edited by Vaern; 2021-03-04 at 09:08 PM.
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    That's the thing, RAW doesn't care about RAI and the only actual reference for intent is under question. So, what are we doing about it here? Arguing RAI when both have RAW support. This is at the point of "discuss with DM" to determine how you are going to play.

    There will not be a definitive answer to this thread's title question if imbue item is not considered a valid source of intent. Especially, when it's functioning as an ability is at stake.

    Whether imbue item ignores components or not is separate from this.
    I argue that sole one has RAW support. Because ... thx due to ERRATA we have the PRIMARY SOURCE RULE. You know, the rule that is supposed to solve conflict like these xD
    If this is not the situation to apply it then when?^^

    explanation see below.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raishoiken View Post
    You haven't shown this. You just present the rules that govern how you cast a spell and then make a claim that those rules govern all other rules that include the use of spells in them. You have shown no reason for why those rules have anything to do with the rules for placing spells in items. They are different rules that literally say you're doing different things (trigger vs cast). Even if you were right about them just altering the casting spell rules, you would still have to deal with the fact that the "altered rule" tells you that instead of A, you are doing B.
    Instead of casting the spell, it is simply triggered instead, explicitly.


    And as to the whole "raw by majority" thing; i just sort of figured the fact that you seem to be the only one coming to this interpretation at the moment would be a decent hint that you may want to try to look at it another way




    It affects the warlock thing and really anything else having to do with interacting with spells being "Cast". Counter-spelling, concentration checks, things of the sort.
    You can pick back up on your progress when crafting an item, if someone smacks you while spellcasting and you fail a check you're SOL
    As I quoted in my first post in this thread:
    The Primary Source Rules say the PHB is the primary source for playing the game. Any other source needs to treat the PHB as general rule(s). As such they can only change those things mentioned for their niche and anything else stays.

    The PHB set the general rule to use spells with the Casting Spells section. Therefore anything else has to obey this rule or call out specific exceptions to alter em. Anything that changes needs to be explicitly called out.

    SLA make use of spells:
    Their description is worded to show the "difference" to "Casting Spells". Nothing implies that it stops to be "Casting Spells" here. There ain't no new rule category for using spells. Or do you see any new "defined" (name + description paragraph) mechanisms to use spells here? I only see how SLA make altered use of the "Casting Spells" rule.

    Spell Trigger items:
    Same here, it describes the difference to "Casting Spells". Why would it do that if not for a reason. It could have just explained how they work for themselves without comparing em to "Casting Spells". Again nothing implies that is stops as counting "Casting Spells" here.

    Crafting see below..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    Depending on what kind of item you're creating, the rules for creating that item will specify additional costs. For example, the rules for scribing a scroll say that you must provide any material component that the spell requires and that if casting the spell would reduce the casterís XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself.
    The item creation rules don't seem to care if you would pay the material component cost for a spell - only that the spell requires one. If the spell requires a costly material component, you must supply that material component as an additional crafting cost to create the item.
    The item creation rules don't seem to care if you're actually casting the spell. If casting the spell would reduce the caster's XP, you pay additional XP as a crafting cost to create the item.
    You don't need to supply extra materials or additional XP for "casting" the spell; you pay them as additional crafting costs to create the item.

    Warlocks gain the ability to make a UMD check to ignore the spell requirement for item creation. Warlocks do not gain the ability to ignore parts of the item creation process other than knowing the prerequisite spell. Supplying 50 times the material component cost of a spell to craft a wand is not the cost of casting the spell - it's the cost of crafting the wand, per the wand crafting rules. They pay for material components and XP costs as a function of the item creation feat in question, not as part of "casting" the necessary spell.
    Again Primary Source Rule:
    The crafting feats alter the "Component" (V,S,M,F,XP..) rules in the PHB (like SLA also alter em). If you read each of the crafting feats carefully, you'll see that the Component costs are "added" on the crafting costs (on top). It doesn't "increase" the base crafting cost! It gets added to it.
    Compare it with taxes in real life. They get "added" on the base price of an item you purchase, but it is still a separate cost and doesn't "increase" the base value of the item.
    Therefore all crafting feats still use altered Components rules. Just have a look at my Power Attack example from my first post/quote: Just because you Power Attack (altering attack rules), your Power Attack doesn't stop counting as normal "attack".

    _____________

    Due to Primary Source Rule anything spell related has to follow the "Casting Spells" rules (or alter them for their niche).
    Quote Originally Posted by Primary Source Rule
    The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game,...
    This rule says that anything in the PHB is primary source and thus to be considered "general" rules for anything related outside of the PHB.
    Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2021-03-05 at 12:52 AM.
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    Depending on what kind of item you're creating, the rules for creating that item will specify additional costs. For example, the rules for scribing a scroll say that you must provide any material component that the spell requires and that if casting the spell would reduce the casterís XP total, she pays the cost upon beginning the scroll in addition to the XP cost for making the scroll itself.
    The item creation rules don't seem to care if you would pay the material component cost for a spell - only that the spell requires one. If the spell requires a costly material component, you must supply that material component as an additional crafting cost to create the item.
    The item creation rules don't seem to care if you're actually casting the spell. If casting the spell would reduce the caster's XP, you pay additional XP as a crafting cost to create the item.
    You don't need to supply extra materials or additional XP for "casting" the spell; you pay them as additional crafting costs to create the item.

    Warlocks gain the ability to make a UMD check to ignore the spell requirement for item creation. Warlocks do not gain the ability to ignore parts of the item creation process other than knowing the prerequisite spell. Supplying 50 times the material component cost of a spell to craft a wand is not the cost of casting the spell - it's the cost of crafting the wand, per the wand crafting rules. They pay for material components and XP costs as a function of the item creation feat in question, not as part of "casting" the necessary spell.
    This belongs to this thread here.

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    An example of a case where "expending a spell slot isn't casting a spell" might actually matter - an Exalted Wizard, or Sorcerer, creating a Protection from Good spell scroll, or similar item.

    Actually casting an Evil spell is an Evil act and will lose the Exalted Wizard the benefits of whatever Exalted feat they've got.


    But given that the spell is not actually being cast in the process of creating the item, the wizard may be able to create the item, for the rare cases in which casting Protection from Good might be a sensible thing to do for Good characters.

    And hand it over to the party thief, who can UMD-cast it, so the wizard doesn't actually have to suffer the penalties once the scroll is actually activated.
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by Remuko View Post
    some people think the warlocks ability means they arent actually casting the spells so they dont have to pay the exp cost of the spell when crafting something that includes the spell. ie they still have to pay the base crafting cost of exp but not any additional from the spell if it has a normal exp cost. afaik thats the debate here. rai and gruft disagree on whether they have to pay the spells base exp component or not.
    Of course they have to pay the XP costs. I don't see how the item creation rules are unclear.

    You should have mentioned what exploit you were discussing, why be tricky if you want an actual answer?

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    An example of a case where "expending a spell slot isn't casting a spell" might actually matter - an Exalted Wizard, or Sorcerer, creating a Protection from Good spell scroll, or similar item.

    Actually casting an Evil spell is an Evil act and will lose the Exalted Wizard the benefits of whatever Exalted feat they've got.


    But given that the spell is not actually being cast in the process of creating the item, the wizard may be able to create the item, for the rare cases in which casting Protection from Good might be a sensible thing to do for Good characters.

    And hand it over to the party thief, who can UMD-cast it, so the wizard doesn't actually have to suffer the penalties once the scroll is actually activated.
    That is a meta thing to do. An exalted character would try to prevent the spread of evil and creating such items is a thing exalted characters would not do. Using this as an example of why you aren't casting is really a stretch.

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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    It does have an element of "passing the buck" (with the moral weight being made out to be on the person who reads the scroll rather than the person who writes the scroll) - but in a situation such as villains mind-controlling guardinals (NG celestials) to attack, Protection from Good is the only thing that works to keep them away, and it does not harm the attacking guardinals.

    "Protect yourself from attacking Good beings, without harming them, when they are being mind controlled" is exactly the sort of strategy that Good beings would use. The only issue is the slightly questionable "casting an evil spell" - so, have someone else do it, then help them atone.
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    It does have an element of "passing the buck" (with the moral weight being made out to be on the person who reads the scroll rather than the person who writes the scroll) - but in a situation such as villains mind-controlling guardinals (NG celestials) to attack, Protection from Good is the only thing that works to keep them away, and it does not harm the attacking guardinals.

    "Protect yourself from attacking Good beings, without harming them, when they are being mind controlled" is exactly the sort of strategy that Good beings would use. The only issue is the slightly questionable "casting an evil spell" - so, have someone else do it, then help them atone.
    Even if you're not using it yourself, you're bringing a conduit for evil into the world by creating the item and actively encouraging someone else to commit an evil act by using it which is arguably just as bad as, if not worse than, just doing it yourself. You're basically telling someone else to embrace corruption for your benefit so that you can spare yourself, which is prudent and selfish. Besides, if they're casting an [evil] spell on you then you are probably - as an exalted character - obligated to make a saving throw against it. There's no reason why resorting to an [evil] spell in this case should be considered as your first or best option, especially as an exalted character.

    Protection from evil cast on a mind-controlled target suppresses the effect for its duration. This effectively ends the encounter immediately, rather than simply making you more difficult to hit for the remainder of the encounter while you desperately try coming up with a way to subdue the guardinal without killing it. "Protect the good thing from evil" is probably a better reaction to the situation for a good character, rather than "protect myself from the good thing."
    And once you've hit your guardinal with protection from evil, you don't need to worry about it falling off. Avorals can cast magic circle against evil on themselves at-will, and leonals have a constant passive protective aura that acts as magic circle against evil. Both of these suppress mind control effects on anyone within 10 feet. How did your guardinals get mind-controlled to begin with?
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Whether or not the RAI allows a Good wizard to craft an [evil] scroll without counting as "committing an Evil act" the point that I'm making is that the RAW may allow it.
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    Default Re: creating magic items and "casting spells"

    Since the shield guardian template says that it 'casts the stored spell' does that make it a spellcaster who can take metamagoc feats or contribute to the creation of a magic item?

    Less facetiously, can stored spells in the golem or even a spell storing item be used in magic item creation?
    Last edited by unseenmage; 2021-03-05 at 12:39 PM.

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