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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Magic gemstone associations

    There is a set of magical gems in my campaign setting that grant bonuses when using magic of the associated type.

    Without any other context, which set do you like better?

    Schools of magic
    Ruby: Evocation
    Sapphire: Abjuration
    Topaz: Illusion
    Emerald: Transmutation
    Citrine: Conjuration
    Amethyst: Enchantment
    Diamond: Divination
    Onyx: Necromancy

    OR

    Elements
    Ruby: Fire
    Sapphire: Cold (water?)
    Topaz: Electricity
    Emerald: Acid
    Citrine: Sonic (air?)
    Amethyst: Force (earth?)
    Diamond: Positive (light?)
    Onyx: Negative (shadow?)
    Last edited by Eladrinblade; 2021-03-03 at 03:19 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrinblade View Post
    There is a set of magical gems in my campaign setting that grant bonuses when using magic of the associated type.

    Without any other context, which set do you like better?

    Schools of magic
    Ruby: Evocation
    Sapphire: Abjuration
    Topaz: Illusion
    Emerald: Transmutation
    Citrine: Conjuration
    Amethyst: Enchantment
    Diamond: Divination
    Onyx: Necromancy

    OR

    Elements
    Ruby: Fire
    Sapphire: Cold (water?)
    Topaz: Electricity
    Emerald: Acid
    Citrine: Sonic (air?)
    Amethyst: Force (earth?)
    Diamond: Positive (light?)
    Onyx: Negative (shadow?)

    Classically, Electricity is associated with Air and Acid associated with Earth.
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    "The evil wizard fireballs you, since the weather has been nasty you are now pleasantly warm, gain immunity from fear effects and cold and necrotic damage "

    "The drow cleric smashes you in the skull with an adamantine mace, this jogs your memory, regain all your used spell slots for the day"

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    Sonic and force are perhaps a bit too fringe, so I figure more common elements might be better. However, the non-parenthetical elements are all damage types whereas the parenthetical ones are not, with maybe a few odd exceptions.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Morcleon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    Without context, Schools of Magic seems the better choice because it's more general and covers many more spells than does the Elements version.

    Though there's no stone for Universal.
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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    Not sure how useful these may be, but...from the 1E DMG:



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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    There is also precedence for some gems representing different gods, not sure how helpful that would be will look more at this later.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrinblade View Post
    There is a set of magical gems in my campaign setting that grant bonuses when using magic of the associated type.

    Without any other context, which set do you like better?

    Schools of magic
    Ruby: Evocation
    Sapphire: Abjuration
    Topaz: Illusion
    Emerald: Transmutation
    Citrine: Conjuration
    Amethyst: Enchantment
    Diamond: Divination
    Onyx: Necromancy

    OR

    Elements
    Ruby: Fire
    Sapphire: Cold (water?)
    Topaz: Electricity
    Emerald: Acid
    Citrine: Sonic (air?)
    Amethyst: Force (earth?)
    Diamond: Positive (light?)
    Onyx: Negative (shadow?)
    That's a tough choice, they both have some which work very nicely. I think the second set, with the Cold/Sonic/Force and Light/Shadow options feels like the closest fit to me.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Elves's Avatar

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    blue can't be abj, doesn't fit at all...in my view, the possibilities are:

    red = evocation
    orange = abjuration, conjuration or transmutation
    yellow = enchantment or transmutation [yellow/gold resonating with alchemy]
    green = transmutation, ench, abj or conj
    cyan = conj
    indigo = illusion, conj
    violet = necromancy, conj
    diamond/clear = divination -- I absolutely agree with you here. divination must have no color because it represents seeing the unseen frequencies beyond normal sight, and also resonates with crystal balls. Probably in "color palette" view you would use gray to represent it.

    white = universal (all colors)
    black = antimagic (no colors)
    though of course black/white could also be positive/negative energy

    green is a very neutral color so there are several that fit.
    Conj could be any color except red or yellow, but process of elimination puts it at cyan.

    pink and gray are left over. could be used for something.
    Last edited by Elves; 2021-03-04 at 02:43 PM.
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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Thurbane's Avatar

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    Quote Originally Posted by Eladrinblade View Post
    Schools of magic
    Ruby: Evocation
    Sapphire: Abjuration
    Topaz: Illusion
    Emerald: Transmutation
    Citrine: Conjuration
    Amethyst: Enchantment
    Diamond: Divination
    Onyx: Necromancy
    This image (not sure of source, but there was something similar in one of the 2E books) gels pretty well with how I imagine the assocations:



    Abjuration = sapphire
    Illusion = amethyst
    Conjuration = citrine
    Enchantment = topaz
    Evocation = ruby
    Divination = diamond
    Necromancy = onyx
    Transmutation = emerald

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    blue can't be abj, doesn't fit at all...in my view, the possibilities are:
    I thought that was one of the better fits myself. Abjuration is protection magic, and blue is a colour very much associated with protection in real-world magical traditions. It's typically related to sky/father gods like Zeus/Jupiter.
    Last edited by Biggus; 2021-03-05 at 04:56 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Elves's Avatar

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    Abjuration is protection magic
    Someone pointed out in this thread that the idea seems to be that it negates other things, hence "abjure". In reality, abjuration/abjurer was a generic word for magic or a magician. I wonder if there's any connection there to the word warlock which etymologically also means "oathbreaker".

    blue is a colour very much associated with protection in real-world magical traditions
    There's history but there's also the sound and appearance of the word. For example, enchantment is easy to see as yellow because it's a light, smooth word. The second best choice, green, is too solid for it, while cyan is light but too blatant. So yellow is the best pick.

    In the linked thread I suggested changing abj to protegation, which could be blue. It's a calm, solid word that emphasizes protection. Abjuration isn't a calm blue word in sound or in meaning. Plus then where does illusion go. Can only be blue or purple, and IMO necromancy has to be purple, not black. White contains all wavelengths so clearly has to be Universal, and by that logic black must represent the opposite, the absence of magic.

    Actually, abjuration could be black since it has antimagic field, dimension lock and the other negation spells. That kind of works. But possibly too big of a leap for people who are used to black being evil. And doesn't fit the word that well.

    Necromancy could be both white and black, white representing its healing/resurrection side, black the inflict/negative energy side. Often done in magic element/energy systems. In D&D I think the identification of white as universal is thematically stronger.

    Worth pointing out the identification of necromancy as "black magic" is inessential. The original word was nekromanteia>necromantia, but in medieval times was garbled into nigromantia, black sorcery. Now it's gone back to the original. Of the spectrum colors it's obvious only purple fits it, which only leaves blue for illusion.

    Though necromancers in pink would be funny.

    Reason I'm replying to this is that right now I also have to assign D&D magic school colors for something.


    You know the abjuration as black thing does fit. But does it feel right?
    Last edited by Elves; 2021-03-13 at 07:15 PM.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    Of the 2 I LIKE better, with no context, I prefer the elementals over the schools of magic, maybe because it's more general, or more classical.

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    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    Magic of Faerun had some interesting rules for gems in wands, and what spells they make better:

    Amaratha (fictional gem) - Resistance/Immunity to acid, sonic, electricity, fire or cold
    Beljuril (fictional gem) - Electricity
    Black sapphire - Darkness
    Diamond - Conjuration (healing)
    Emerald - Enchantment
    Fire Opal - Fire
    Jacinth - Fire
    Jasmal (fictional gem) - Enchancement bonuses to weapons or armour
    King's Tear (fictional gem) - Divination
    Moonbar (fictional gem) - Conjuration (calling)
    Opal - Enchantment (charm)
    Orblen (fictional gem) - Conjuration (creation)
    Orl (fictional gem) - Luck bonuses, Chaotic
    Ravenar (tormaline variant) - Sonic
    Red Tear (fictional gem) - Transmutation
    Rogue Stone (fictional gem) Teleportation, Chaotic
    Ruby - Evocation
    Sapphire - Conjuration (summoning)
    Star Ruby - Illusion
    Star Sapphire - Abjuration
    Tomb Jade (fictional gem) - Enchantment (compulsion)
    Water Opal - Divination
    Zendalure (fictional gem) - Necromancy
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-03-06 at 01:55 AM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Someone pointed out in this thread that the idea seems to be that it negates other things, hence "abjure". In reality, abjuration/abjurer was a generic word for magic or a magician. I wonder if there's any connection there to the word warlock which etymologically also means "oathbreaker".
    Going through abjuration spells they tend to be focused on protection and removing magic. Depending on what cultures you are looking at; water, earth, metal, and wood/plant all cover the protection aspect so from that point of view blue, yellow, silver/metallic/gold, and green/brown all might be decent choices. Of those elements water and wood/plant have healing/life quality, metal has 'sharpness', earth and metal have strength and water often has a negation/censing theme to it. Of those water/blue with both protection and negation/censing seems the best fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    There's history but there's also the sound and appearance of the word. For example, enchantment is easy to see as yellow because it's a light, smooth word. The second best choice, green, is too solid for it, while cyan is light but too blatant. So yellow is the best pick.
    On the flip side when I think of enchantment I think of emotions; seduction, lust, rage and other such passionate energetic emotions go with reds and maybe pink, where as calm emotion, sleep, and so forth are blues. By that logic enchantment makes a lot of sense as purple, a mix of passion and calm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    In the linked thread I suggested changing abj to protegation, which could be blue. It's a calm, solid word that emphasizes protection. Abjuration isn't a calm blue word in sound or in meaning. Plus then where does illusion go. Can only be blue or purple, and IMO necromancy has to be purple, not black. White contains all wavelengths so clearly has to be Universal, and by that logic black must represent the opposite, the absence of magic.
    I think white/clear/prismatic/diamond are all a great choice for illusion, visual illusions are all about playing with what is and isn't there and tricking us into believing something. What better way to represent that visually than with a prismatic gem that splits clear light into a rainbow?
    On the flip side pink isn't real what better way to represent an illusion than with an illusionary color?!? Yes I think I have convinced myself go pink for illusions what could be better?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Actually, abjuration could be black since it has antimagic field, dimension lock and the other negation spells. That kind of works. But probably too big of a leap, hard to communicate. And doesn't fit the word that well.
    Black could be an interesting choice for abjuration but it only covers the negation of magic aspect and ignores the protection aspect which is just as important and prevalent in abjuration.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Necromancy could be both white and black, white representing its healing/resurrection side, black the inflict/negative energy side. Often done in magic element/energy systems. In D&D I think the identification of white as universal is thematically stronger.

    Worth pointing out the identification of necromancy as "black magic" is inessential. The original word was nekromanteia>necromantia, but in Medieval times was garbled into nigromantia, black sorcery. Now it's gone back to the original. Of the spectrum colors it's obvious only purple fits it, which only leaves blue for illusion.

    Though necromancers in pink would be funny.
    Pink seems strangely a good choice for necromancy but as I said above I think pink is better suited to illusion, whereas purple the mix of passionate red and calming blue seems like a great choice for enchantment which is focused around emotions, and there is a pretty solid argument for abjuration blue.
    Over all I think White is actually the best choice for necromancy, in western cultures white is often associated with healing both in lore and in western medicine. Where as in a lot of eastern cultures white is associated with death so there we have it white is both life and death which is the study of necromancy.

    So that leaves transformation, conjuration, evocation, divination, and universal...

    I think like many people red/ruby is a good choice for evocation after all most people think of fire and using raw energy, emotions, and power channeled to display magical might when they think of evocation.

    Divination is looking to the future which is covered in darkness, peoples' secrets are hidden, and the past is often incomplete and covered in shadow. Divination is the art of looking into the shadows and darkness to find truth, so black is quite befitting of divination.

    Brown is what all other colors turn into when mixed together so it makes sense as universal.

    Going back to the idea of diamond and prisms; transmutation is about changing one thing into another, a faceted diamond or prism can catch clear white light and change it into every color that rather seems befitting of transmutation the art of changing one thing into another.

    I am a bit more uncertain about conjuration, it is an art focused on bringing things from one place to another, creation, and healing. Green is a color of life, creation, and change from winter to spring and summer, which is quite fitting for Conjuration.

    Abjuration = sapphire (blue)
    Illusion = Kunzite (or some other pink stone)
    Conjuration = emerald (green)
    Enchantment = amethyst (purple)
    Evocation = ruby (red)
    Divination = onyx (black)
    Necromancy = Pearl (white)
    Transmutation = Diamond (clear prism)
    Universal = Agate/jasper (other brown stone)

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    [URL="https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?626894-New-name-for-Abjuration"]
    There's history but there's also the sound and appearance of the word. For example, enchantment is easy to see as yellow because it's a light, smooth word. The second best choice, green, is too solid for it, while cyan is light but too blatant. So yellow is the best pick.
    Wow, it would not have occured to me to use the sound and appearance of the word as the basis for my choices. The trouble with that method to me is that it's extremely subjective; personally, enchantment is not a "smooth" word, nor does it remind me of the colour yellow. I can vaguely see what you mean by "light", but I'd have more said "musical" myself.

    The magical assocations I mentioned, while obviously still somewhat subjective, are not just historical but are based on things like: the sky is blue, blood is red, most plants are green and so on. To me that seems like a slightly more solid basis for categorisation, but obviously there's no right or wrong answers here.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Elves's Avatar

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    Wow, it would not have occured to me to use the sound and appearance of the word as the basis for my choices. The trouble with that method to me is that it's extremely subjective.
    Well, it's partly subjective and partly not. No one thinks LOTR orcish sounds like a nice gentle language.

    The idea of purple, a construed color, being illusion is cute. But then in the 7-color spectrum schema necromancy becomes indigo, which I don't like because dark blue is the classic wizard's robe color.

    What you could do is abandon the spectrum schema and make it purely gemstones, in which case Universal could be opal/prismatic and divination could be clear crystal representing crystal balls.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Magic gemstone associations

    I don't know, Elves. It kinda sounds like you've got synesthesia.

    If we're just talking colors you might want to consider the Wizards of High Sorcery.
    - White = Abjuration and divination.
    - Red = Illusion and transmutation.
    - Black = Enchantment and necromancy.
    It's a start, maybe not the best though. Are there any other color/gem associations in D&D that can work? Besides the Red Wizards of Thay, ofcourse.

    If we're just looking at spell components you'd get something like this:
    - Onyx is used to animate the dead, so necromancy.
    - Diamonds are needed for raise dead, so conjuration (Healing) or also necromancy in other editions.
    - Crystal balls are used for scrying, although silver mirrors also work. Does it have to be a gem?

    Yeah, okay. This is complicated.

    Edit: I'm to lazy to figure this out myself right now.
    Last edited by the_david; 2021-03-13 at 07:18 PM.

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