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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

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    And here we go! Finally we get to see Asmodeus plan!
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    I think you mean teased by his plan.
    Because i dont think we are told anything meaningful yet.
    And i do think we will likely get at least another chapter from another point of view :P
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
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    I think you mean teased by his plan.
    Because i dont think we are told anything meaningful yet.
    And i do think we will likely get at least another chapter from another point of view :P
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    a lot went down in this one. We got a band of three going for Ranger, Akua is still displaying how savvy she is to Cat's machinations, Zeze not even on screen and still proving how terrifying he is when given a goal that he wants, The Black Knight actively avoiding the Squire, and the Carrion Lord just waltzing around like "by the way, the sky is on fire*". Its, to me, a good chapter. It shows stuff moving. I agree with you though, we gotta get another point of view.


    *exaggerating of course. Unless it happens.

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
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    I think you mean teased by his plan.
    Because i dont think we are told anything meaningful yet.
    And i do think we will likely get at least another chapter from another point of view :P
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    We know he is going to kill a of civilians, giant spiders and goblin fire aren't very discriminating.


    I recently reread most of the series and I did not realize how Bard has been messing with it. She gets the Exiled Prince killed early on knowing Cat is in a three battle trope and won't lose, so that the rebels will lose and require William to use the Angel. Her plot in Procer is actually just a bigger version of her original plot.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2021-07-09 at 02:44 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
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    We know he is going to kill a of civilians, giant spiders and goblin fire aren't very discriminating.


    I recently reread most of the series and I did not realize how Bard has been messing with it. She gets the Exiled Prince killed early on knowing Cat is in a three battle trope and won't lose, so that the rebels will lose and require William to use the Angel. Her plot in Procer is actually just a bigger version of her original plot.
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    Thats a bit doh :P
    Meaning that it does not really say something relevant about his planning.
    He has newer shyed away from a course of action, just because it would break a couple civilians. He has always been an utter monster.

    All the same. If its him releasing the giant spiders (ill give it 80% odds or so), then he wont waste them on civilians.
    Well. He might send them towards civilians to create a diversion that forces a break in the fighting.

    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
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    We know he is going to kill a of civilians, giant spiders and goblin fire aren't very discriminating.


    I recently reread most of the series and I did not realize how Bard has been messing with it. She gets the Exiled Prince killed early on knowing Cat is in a three battle trope and won't lose, so that the rebels will lose and require William to use the Angel. Her plot in Procer is actually just a bigger version of her original plot.
    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
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    Thats a bit doh :P
    Meaning that it does not really say something relevant about his planning.
    He has newer shyed away from a course of action, just because it would break a couple civilians. He has always been an utter monster.

    All the same. If its him releasing the giant spiders (ill give it 80% odds or so), then he wont waste them on civilians.
    Well. He might send them towards civilians to create a diversion that forces a break in the fighting.

    After rereading the last chapter it doesn’t LOOK like the event was caused by him, but more an interesting occurrence.


    “Ah, fateful timing,” he said. “It has been some time since I’ve last been on the right side of it.”


    It also sits with his current MO of not doing things directly or overtly so as to dodge shenanigans like this.

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    After rereading the last chapter it doesn’t LOOK like the event was caused by him, but more an interesting occurrence.


    “Ah, fateful timing,” he said. “It has been some time since I’ve last been on the right side of it.”


    It also sits with his current MO of not doing things directly or overtly so as to dodge shenanigans like this.
    I think he released the Spiders, but he didn't time it to happen at this perfect moment where the no one has forces available to stop him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    I think he released the Spiders, but he didn't time it to happen at this perfect moment where the no one has forces available to stop him.
    That would still be an overt thing that he did. I personally think it makes more sense that he provoked them, leading to them doing this on their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    That would still be an overt thing that he did. I personally think it makes more sense that he provoked them, leading to them doing this on their own.
    If he was killing the mages that maintained the wards that contained them to hide his own plan, then the Giant spiders would fall under a 'fateful timing' as it would only be a matter of time until they would break through. They would be generally provoked by him and Ranger moving through the tunnels as well as the general going ons (storm, breaking of the walls) that eventually they would cascade out.

    So less 'specifically provoked' and more that the general situation of Ater shook the angry wasp nest, causing a general outbreak.

    I do like the idea that you start seeing a truce between the 'Empress of the City' and the Army of Callow in safeguarding Ater that results in..not a surrender of the city but I guess an alliance htat means that you have allies that have a common enemy in the Tower. If they break the Tower, that still leaves Akua in charge with the capital city (Ater is it's own administration system to manage the Empire), which would leave Akua nominally in charge of the central hub of Praes, with the other three great cities (Kahtan, Wolof, Foramen, and Nok) being more regional seats.

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Hmm.. i guess i was vaguely right in predicting Asmodeus were going to destroy the story of the tower.
    Even if as such it is the Dread Empire with Spiders, not the Tower with Goblingfire. Then the result is moderatly the same.

    Else. I do suspect this will screw up Malicia and the Bards plans.

    For that matter. The spiders will also ruin the plans of looting the town.

    edit.
    No likely thats the finale. The Tower burning green. Destroying its legacy of sealed horrors.

    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2021-07-13 at 04:43 AM.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Arthurs critique of Amadeus is right.
    He has been terrible at building lasting things.
    Man had 20 years of mostly peaceful rule and didn't get his land stable.
    You know, making Cat a queen was one mistake and their weird approach to diplomacy (making enemies) the other.

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Well. Perhaps it is?
    He did try for some 20 years to create something stable and lasting.
    And he did go at it in a ruthlessly efficient way.

    But in the end he discovered he had been building on a swamp.
    So i guess, deciding to raze it all to the ground, and start on a fresh solid foundation is the logical choice.
    Its the one i would pick if it was a strategic game like civilization.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    It always annoys me when a character like Amadeus just goes totally unchallenged because the person they are arguing with is just the most basic loser who acts like they can barely string a sentence together. I guess I can't expect much better then that here though.
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
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    Hmm.. i guess i was vaguely right in predicting Asmodeus were going to destroy the story of the tower.
    Even if as such it is the Dread Empire with Spiders, not the Tower with Goblingfire. Then the result is moderatly the same.

    Else. I do suspect this will screw up Malicia and the Bards plans.

    For that matter. The spiders will also ruin the plans of looting the town.

    edit.
    No likely thats the finale. The Tower burning green. Destroying its legacy of sealed horrors.

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    He has to die during the fall too. If he kills Malicia and lives it just justifies the Tyrant more, his super scheming defeating a lesser foe and then he betrays her. It would be a classic Age of Wonder story.

    He has to defeat and kill Malicia either without looking more clever/worthy, or by dying with her intentionally.
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  15. - Top - End - #285
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    It always annoys me when a character like Amadeus just goes totally unchallenged because the person they are arguing with is just the most basic loser who acts like they can barely string a sentence together. I guess I can't expect much better then that here though.
    Your being extremely unfair. Your basically expecting an 18 year old soldier to defeat a seasoned politican in a debate without preparation, and while knee deep in spiders.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
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    He has to die during the fall too. If he kills Malicia and lives it just justifies the Tyrant more, his super scheming defeating a lesser foe and then he betrays her. It would be a classic Age of Wonder story.

    He has to defeat and kill Malicia either without looking more clever/worthy, or by dying with her intentionally.
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    Yeah. But he isnt going to kill Malicia.
    Well. I do give it even odds about if Malicia decides to burn up in the tower, rather than live without her name.
    But there will be a way out for her in any situation Asmodeus engineer.


    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Such scenery. Such mayhem. The carnage….the chewing…. This was a fun chapter!

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    It always annoys me when a character like Amadeus just goes totally unchallenged because the person they are arguing with is just the most basic loser who acts like they can barely string a sentence together. I guess I can't expect much better then that here though.
    To be fair the Squire is a pretty basic loser. He's got almost nothing going for him and is reacting almost purely off of old Heroic tropes.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
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    Hmm.. i guess i was vaguely right in predicting Asmodeus were going to destroy the story of the tower.
    Even if as such it is the Dread Empire with Spiders, not the Tower with Goblingfire. Then the result is moderatly the same.

    Else. I do suspect this will screw up Malicia and the Bards plans.

    For that matter. The spiders will also ruin the plans of looting the town.

    edit.
    No likely thats the finale. The Tower burning green. Destroying its legacy of sealed horrors.

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    Oh this would completely ruin the Bard's plan. You can't make Cat the Warden of something that doesn't exist.

    Though I don't see how the Spiders ruin the plan of looting the town. It's not like they use any materials, and they aren't going to win this fight. Cause massive amounts of damage sure, but they will lose. And all the material stuff in the city will remain viable. That isn't contaminated by demons anyways.
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    To be fair the Squire is a pretty basic loser. He's got almost nothing going for him and is reacting almost purely off of old Heroic tropes.
    He's also a Name that developed during a war with, as far as we know, Aspects developing to help him survive and fight that war (for example, how his Learn is configured to give him crash courses in combat, where Squire!Cat's Learn helped her get to grips with the lessons in politics, Namelore, languages, etc that she would need to absorb Black's lessons better.) 'Heroic figure smashes Evil' is pretty much all he needs to be right now, and he doesn't have to be especially bright or skilled in working stories and tropes to do that one... and, in fairness to Hanno, the things he knows about how villains operate do apply to a significant majority of villains. Running into Amadeus in this circumstance is like.. imagine you're starting to learn how to play Chess, and you've memorized the five most common opening sequences and the best ways to counter them. It works on everybody who is at your level, and gives you a fair chance against people who are a bit above you. Then you get in a game with a Grandmaster and two steps into what you thought was a standard opening he starts playing something you have never seen before. You have no guidance, you have no idea where you stand in this game now, and *your opponent knows it.* The best you can hope for is he doesn't have any ill will toward you and isn't going to be malicious while you get completely outplayed.

    (Fortunately for Arthur his mentor figures want him to be better than Mirror Knight, which is what happens when literally all you have is leaning too much into "big Good brick smashes Evil wherever he sees it." Unfortunately for Arthur the situation where he came into his Name doesn't permit a lot of safe time to learn the nuances of different Roles, stories, tropes, and giving him time to figure out which ones he wants to define himself by - he's getting treated like a tool by people who would probably prefer not to handle him like that, because they can't afford to let him go make the mistakes he needs to grow into something of his own right now.)
    Last edited by tyckspoon; 2021-07-13 at 02:49 PM.

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Interesting, I read Dragonus45's comment from a Doylist perspective, rather than the Watsonian one you're all responding to it as. Which I think is a valid complaint, even if the tone of the comment reads, to me, as fairly dismissive to either APGTE or the fandom. The issue seems a bit at odds with the original thrust of the story, which is more or less specifically focused on Amadeus's approach to being evil. Probably a good part of the reason why he is often framed in such an impressive light. That said, I feel like he's had call outs in the past, from both Tariq and Kairos at least. I'm not going to go hunting for citations, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

    I'm curious, Dragonus45, what would you have liked to see Amadeus challenged on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Interesting, I read Dragonus45's comment from a Doylist perspective, rather than the Watsonian one you're all responding to it as. Which I think is a valid complaint, even if the tone of the comment reads, to me, as fairly dismissive to either APGTE or the fandom. The issue seems a bit at odds with the original thrust of the story, which is more or less specifically focused on Amadeus's approach to being evil. Probably a good part of the reason why he is often framed in such an impressive light. That said, I feel like he's had call outs in the past, from both Tariq and Kairos at least. I'm not going to go hunting for citations, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

    I'm curious, Dragonus45, what would you have liked to see Amadeus challenged on?
    I mean, the Squire got some good points across, even if he needed two to three tries for each one.

    The second thing is that the story is self-contradicting. In the first book, Amadeus approach is the hit, create institutions and good policy, not zany schemes. Now, few books later, stories are all the world runs on. Back to the zany schemes of killing stories, I guess.

    EDIT: And I'm surprised Akua hasnt run dmg control yet, she is Amadeus' antagonist for this part as she envisions a good and noble nobility.
    Last edited by Rydiro; 2021-07-14 at 02:23 AM.

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    I'm curious, Dragonus45, what would you have liked to see Amadeus challenged on?
    Literally everything that comes out of his mouth. I despise him and everything he stands for and even if I think his goals are worthy in the abstract I think literally everything he does to achieve them is terrible. In particular though, I was rather annoyed at him trying to equate the army of Callow attacking while making sure to attack into areas they know are held by the military while avoiding civilian harm as an explicit goal with him initiating an attack of giant monster spiders explicitly onto a civilian populace for the goal of mass slaughter as a means to an ends. A five year old should be able to refute him at that point, and instead the story frames him as being correct in his actions like it always does. Frankly, dismissive is far to polite a term for how I feel about PGTE when this sentient bit of pond scum in the shape of a person shows up on screen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Literally everything that comes out of his mouth. I despise him and everything he stands for and even if I think his goals are worthy in the abstract I think literally everything he does to achieve them is terrible. In particular though, I was rather annoyed at him trying to equate the army of Callow attacking while making sure to attack into areas they know are held by the military while avoiding civilian harm as an explicit goal with him initiating an attack of giant monster spiders explicitly onto a civilian populace for the goal of mass slaughter as a means to an ends. A five year old should be able to refute him at that point, and instead the story frames him as being correct in his actions like it always does. Frankly, dismissive is far to polite a term for how I feel about PGTE when this sentient bit of pond scum in the shape of a person shows up on screen.
    What? So far the story has: Killed all of his friends, his army was poisoned around him and his soul got ripped out, he got stabbed by Cat, his lifelong partner betrayed him and went mad with power, he lost Callow and every single thing he ever did was undone in the space of 3 years.

    I don't know how much more refutation you can get than "has the fruits of his labors turned into dust and he dies killing the country he lived for."
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

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    Did Amadeus just tell the Squire that Nim might become a different Knight? That would be interesting if it happens, the mirror Knight going dark seems possible.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    What? So far the story has: Killed all of his friends, his army was poisoned around him and his soul got ripped out, he got stabbed by Cat, his lifelong partner betrayed him and went mad with power, he lost Callow and every single thing he ever did was undone in the space of 3 years.

    I don't know how much more refutation you can get than "has the fruits of his labors turned into dust and he dies killing the country he lived for."
    And yet he personally always comes out on top, always gets the last word, and almost all of the failures of Praes have been because people just didn't listen to him and if only they had things would be fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    And yet he personally always comes out on top, always gets the last word, and almost all of the failures of Praes have been because people just didn't listen to him and if only they had things would be fine.
    How exactly is "lost everything he ever cared about" coming out on top? I would argue that like any number of other characters he is allowed to pontificate ad nauseum because otherwise he is just a strawman, and the author wants to puncture the philosophy thoroughly. Akua, Malicia, The Bard, The Tyrant of Helike, The Saint of Swords, Tariq, all get multiple developed scenes so that when their approach hits its limits it resonates.

    Heck even Cat has had to abandon story long beliefs, she just ditched the whole no Named rulers provision because the Names are a group's story and as such are a kind of mandate.
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    And yet he personally always comes out on top, always gets the last word, and almost all of the failures of Praes have been because people just didn't listen to him and if only they had things would be fine.
    If people had listened to him, Praes would've never managed to conquer Callow, as it would still be too busy caught in a war against the nobility. Unless Black lost of course.

    Also I think you are mistaking keeping his cool and staying calm even when he's in a bad situation for coming on top and getting the last word.
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    I'd put it slightly differently; when he appears in the story, he always comes out on top and gets the last word. But that's not true over the time period the story is set in; he suffers major losses, as Tvtyrant says, and his losses are not merely informed losses. They really are the obvious consequences that he manages to put off while in the spotlight finally catching up to him. The narrative merely declines to focus on them, so much as on how they affect the wider world around him.

    Which really fits him, personality-wise.

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by uncool View Post
    I'd put it slightly differently; when he appears in the story, he always comes out on top and gets the last word. But that's not true over the time period the story is set in; he suffers major losses, as Tvtyrant says, and his losses are not merely informed losses. They really are the obvious consequences that he manages to put off while in the spotlight finally catching up to him. The narrative merely declines to focus on them, so much as on how they affect the wider world around him.

    Which really fits him, personality-wise.
    Amadeus is repeatedly referred to as a monster with a mind that works like a machine. He never acts like he's losing - even when he's in a bad situation you don't see him dwelling on his losses. He just goes "ok, what is the best result I can get out of this and how do I get there?" That doesn't mean he isn't taking losses - you just don't see him reflecting on them on-page, because he's not often the viewpoint character and we don't see his inner monologue very much. It's a lot like if the only times we saw Catherine are when she's scaring the hell out of an enemy army or concluding a chaos gambit; we'd see somebody who somehow never loses and is always on the top of her game. But since she's our main viewpoint character, we also get to see the times when she's sweating bullets hoping nobody calls her bluff because she can do that super Night spell precisely once and if she didn't pick precisely the right time to intervene with it then Everybody Dies, or when she's drunk and maudlin reflecting on how many people she had to sacrifice to get where she is.

    (If you still don't think Black recognizes his losses.. think about how many of his plans just happen to include sacrificing himself. That is not the thought process of somebody who is happy with his achievements and thinks he is winning.)

  29. - Top - End - #299
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    lord_khaine's Avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    initiating an attack of giant monster spiders explicitly onto a civilian populace for the goal of mass slaughter as a means to an ends.
    Actually he initiated the spider attack into the path of 2 armies duking it out. They were already killing each other. Now they just get to fight spiders instead.

    I'd put it slightly differently; when he appears in the story, he always comes out on top and gets the last word. But that's not true over the time period the story is set in; he suffers major losses, as Tvtyrant says, and his losses are not merely informed losses. They really are the obvious consequences that he manages to put off while in the spotlight finally catching up to him. The narrative merely declines to focus on them, so much as on how they affect the wider world around him.
    And even this isnt entirely true. He failed to kill the white knight.
    While he got himself and his entire army beaten by the Grey Pilgrim. He only survived that bit because Cat spend a lot of effort rescuing him.

    But yeah. When he suffers a setback he just pauses up, trying to figure out "what did i do wrong here" and "whats the best i can get out of this situation".
    I do admire that about him. Even if he is an utter monster that i have flamed regularly myself.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  30. - Top - End - #300
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Unrelatedly, the author might hate spiders as much as I do.

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    “That place is bad enough I think even the devils would go back to the Hells if they had a choice,” Indrani bluntly said."
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

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