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  1. - Top - End - #541
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    A lot of this argument is very familiar. Feels like Cat and Hanno are just arguing what we talked out in this thread a few pages back. I'm rather amused to hear Cat hitting a lot of the same points I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    For that matter, Cat has good points but isn't entirely right either. She rails against the autonomy of Heroes, but the comment section on the story site has a very good debate going about how so many of the problems she's had to overcome were created by corrupt or evil politicians/rulers, including non-Named ones.
    I think calling her wrong on that front misreads the argument. She's arguing against the autonomy of heroes and Hanno's lack of authority, sure, but she isn't arguing that a system or authority will be a perfect, incorruptible answer. At the end of the day, she's faced a number of problems from heroes refusing to acknowledge systems or authority, and that doesn't go away because authority can also have problems.

  2. - Top - End - #542
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by AmberVael View Post
    A lot of this argument is very familiar. Feels like Cat and Hanno are just arguing what we talked out in this thread a few pages back. I'm rather amused to hear Cat hitting a lot of the same points I did.



    I think calling her wrong on that front misreads the argument. She's arguing against the autonomy of heroes and Hanno's lack of authority, sure, but she isn't arguing that a system or authority will be a perfect, incorruptible answer. At the end of the day, she's faced a number of problems from heroes refusing to acknowledge systems or authority, and that doesn't go away because authority can also have problems.
    Hano isn't arguing for a total lack of accountability for heroes either though.
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Hano isn't arguing for a total lack of accountability for heroes either though.
    In a way, he is. He's arguing that they should always be given another chance, that they always get the benefit of the doubt because they're Heroes and thus Good, even if they can make a mistake. Cat believes very strongly that Heroes can still go Bad.

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    In a way, he is. He's arguing that they should always be given another chance, that they always get the benefit of the doubt because they're Heroes and thus Good, even if they can make a mistake. Cat believes very strongly that Heroes can still go Bad.
    So he isn't arguing they should always get another chance, and nothing about his actions so far says otherwise? He absolutely was willing to execute Red Axe, and people keep conveniently forgetting this. As for the benefit of the doubt, ya why wouldn't they get the benefit of the doubt.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2021-09-17 at 05:13 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #545
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    So he isn't arguing they should always get another chance, and nothing about his actions so far says otherwise? He absolutely was willing to execute Red Axe, and people keep conveniently forgetting this. As for the benefit of the doubt, ya why wouldn't they get the benefit of the doubt.
    Should they get more benefit of the doubt than unnamed people as well as more benefit of the doubt than villains though?
    Last edited by halfeye; 2021-09-17 at 06:36 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #546
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Should they get more benefit of the doubt than unnamed people as well as more benefit of the doubt than villains though?
    I don't think Hanno is proposing more benefit of the doubt then the average person but I would say to some small degree probably. As for villains? Abso****inglutley yes.

    EDIT
    I'll also point out he isn't saying that a villain gets no benefit of the doubt ever. Even when he was in full coin flip for the will of the angels mode he very clearly spelled that out the first time he ever met Cat.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2021-09-17 at 06:51 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #547
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    Worth noting the idea that Cat focused on Heroes while monologuing at Hanno because that is where his focus is. When Cordelia gets to wherever Cat wants her it's a reasonable guess that Cat will rail against corrupt and self-serving politicians and the mundane rule of the masses etc etc since that is what Cordelia is focused on, and Cat has problems with them both.
    Yeah, this read to me as Cat beating into the claimants that their personal philosophy isn't some unassailable truth, that it has flaws just like everyone else's. Hanno isn't wrong, but neither is Cordelia, and until the two of them get that through their heads neither is fit to represent all of Good.
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  8. - Top - End - #548
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    The question remains how she intent to make them resolve the issue of it only being possible to have 1 Warden.
    Cordelia actually looked into shared names. But seemingly could not find a solution.

    Else. Since the debate died down a little.
    A random question. What do people think are the most OP/Broken Aspect so far?
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  9. - Top - End - #549
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Thats hard to say because they all literally run on plot, and thus are subject to narrative flexibility in power.

    I think the Saints ability to cut things is probably the single most powerful aspect shown on screen, but its also limited to her immediate reach.

  10. - Top - End - #550
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Take was also really legit, as was the once ever usage we saw of Black's Destroy.

    And, of course, probably the most broken one (besides Bard's bull**** which I don't count): Wish.

  11. - Top - End - #551
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    I'm going with Taric's rez, just on the basis that it is frequently used, and always incredibly powerful. Just hey, you don't die, is always impactful.
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Malicia's mind control aspect was pretty nuts, I think. Cat eventually broke it, but until that point, she was phenomenally dangerous.
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  13. - Top - End - #553
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Yeah, Forgive (the ress) was one of the powers i though about myself.
    Mostly because its effect actually have an immense effect on the large scale balance of power between Above And Below.

    I mean. What happens if you kill a low level white knight? he is replaced by another slightly lower level knight.
    But if you raise him. Then he gets to learn from his mistake. And become a mid level white knight.

    So Forgive raises the average "level" of Above's champions.
    And we have seen there is a massive difference between green heroes and veteran heroes.
    Just compare the Saint of Swords to just about anyone else you could be in melee range off.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  14. - Top - End - #554
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Honorable mentions for FIND and USE.
    The more general and overall appliccable a verb is, the more powerful it becomes.
    Anything that boosts experiece gain too, see Hierophants comments and what a monster Ranger is (was?).

  15. - Top - End - #555
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by Rydiro View Post
    Honorable mentions for FIND and USE.
    The more general and overall appliccable a verb is, the more powerful it becomes.
    Anything that boosts experiece gain too, see Hierophants comments and what a monster Ranger is (was?).
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    The latest chapter implies she is either dead or losing her Name to Archer now. In a sense she was right, caring about pupils/Calamities did bring her down.
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
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    The latest chapter implies she is either dead or losing her Name to Archer now. In a sense she was right, caring about pupils/Calamities did bring her down.
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    While it will never be confirmed outside a Patreon bonus chapter, I think it wasn't Hye's caring for pupils that undid her name, but specifically her lack of it. The Name of Ranger, at least for her, was all about facing impossibly difficult challenges, Learning how to overcome them, and becoming more powerful as a result. 'Grinding XP', as Khaine puts it.

    Below Ater, she was defeated by a group of people who were all individually weaker than her, but cared about each other and synergized their abilities accordingly via teamwork (yes, the Emerald Swords did most of the work, but that's not Narratively interesting). This is an Outside Context Problem for Hye - her psychology couldn't comprehend that personal connections would be an advantage instead of a weakness. And since she couldn't Learn from that defeat, it's weakened or broken her connection to the name of Ranger.

  17. - Top - End - #557
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Spoiler: Ranger, Wild Speculation
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    While it will never be confirmed outside a Patreon bonus chapter, I think it wasn't Hye's caring for pupils that undid her name, but specifically her lack of it. The Name of Ranger, at least for her, was all about facing impossibly difficult challenges, Learning how to overcome them, and becoming more powerful as a result. 'Grinding XP', as Khaine puts it.

    Below Ater, she was defeated by a group of people who were all individually weaker than her, but cared about each other and synergized their abilities accordingly via teamwork (yes, the Emerald Swords did most of the work, but that's not Narratively interesting). This is an Outside Context Problem for Hye - her psychology couldn't comprehend that personal connections would be an advantage instead of a weakness. And since she couldn't Learn from that defeat, it's weakened or broken her connection to the name of Ranger.
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    Having apprentices at all set that up is my point. Ranger staked her Name on her ideology being right, telling the Narrative that her students could only best her by becoming her. They bested her without doing that and she has now lost a pivot.

    I see your point too, that Hye needs to learn from fights and if she doesn't she isn't Ranger. But Hye's version of Ranger is also driven by her certainty, so she would probably lose narrative power if she changed into more of a team player.

    I guess when she comes to try to kill Cat for killing Asmodeus we will see.
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  18. - Top - End - #558
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Spoiler: Ranger, Wild Speculation
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    That.. is a really intriguing take on the whole situation regarding the new Ranger Claimant.
    And it honestly sounds plausible. I dont think Hye is dead. That was the whole point about her pupils journey. Moving past her.

    But at the same time. Hye (dam thats so easy to turn into Hey by reflex xD ) did fail to learn a lesson.
    And she were overcome by opponents significantly weaker than herself working together.

    That was a failure on her part. And could also easily have shaken her conviction enough to create room for a new claimant.

    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

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    That's a good point on the pivot of beating her by becoming her, as well. She lost that one hard, in a way.

    The real question is, who are the other Claimants to the name? Silver Huntress is an obvious one. I don't expect the Concocter to have much interest in becoming Ranger, though, so is it just Alexis and Indrani?

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
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    That's a good point on the pivot of beating her by becoming her, as well. She lost that one hard, in a way.

    The real question is, who are the other Claimants to the name? Silver Huntress is an obvious one. I don't expect the Concocter to have much interest in becoming Ranger, though, so is it just Alexis and Indrani?
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    I would think so? The two were designed to be parallel anyway, hero archer and villain archer.

    If Indrani becomes Ranger she probably makes Masego's tower her homebase, and goes on adventures while he studies. Superficially similar to Ranger and Amadeus but much more wholesome.

    Alexis has very little of that kind of buildup so its hard to speculate on how her iteration of the same themes would look.


    I suppose there could be a neutral triplet named Enel. 😏
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2021-09-20 at 10:55 AM.

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

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    Well yeah. Or more beating Hye by surpassing Hye, in learning a lesson she could not learn.

    Though i dont think there is another Ranger claimant.
    Alexis very badly wanted to distance herself from Hye and her lessons.
    She is i think the most critical of Hye. And she already have a full name, and a role.



    Anything that boosts experiece gain too, see Hierophants comments and what a monster Ranger is (was?).
    On this topic im a little surprised Dawn has not been mentioned yet.
    The ultimative long play by Above. having a Hero that grows stronger at a liniar pace.
    But just continue doing so until he has a body like steel.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Spoiler: RANGER
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    Well yeah. Or more beating Hye by surpassing Hye, in learning a lesson she could not learn.

    Though i dont think there is another Ranger claimant.
    Alexis very badly wanted to distance herself from Hye and her lessons.
    She is i think the most critical of Hye. And she already have a full name, and a role.





    On this topic im a little surprised Dawn has not been mentioned yet.
    The ultimative long play by Above. having a Hero that grows stronger at a liniar pace.
    But just continue doing so until he has a body like steel.
    That's literally Mirror Knight. In his introduction chapter back at the Battle of the Camps they say so explicitly, he gets permanently stronger every single morning with the dawn.
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  23. - Top - End - #563
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    That's literally Mirror Knight. In his introduction chapter back at the Battle of the Camps they say so explicitly, he gets permanently stronger every single morning with the dawn.
    Well yeah.. DAWN is one of the Mirror Knights aspects :P
    But the topic was OP aspects. Not named.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Dawn would be truly overpowered if it was part of a villain Name. As is, its at least kept in check by the fact that Heroes do age and eventually die of natural causes. Mirror Knight will be the most absurdly powerful old man Creation has ever seen, though.

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Well yeah.. DAWN is one of the Mirror Knights aspects :P
    But the topic was OP aspects. Not named.
    My aspect is missing the context of a post entirely, the strongest of nerd aspects.

    I someone missed this was back to the subject of best aspects, Nerd that I am.
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  26. - Top - End - #566
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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Dawn would be truly overpowered if it was part of a villain Name. As is, its at least kept in check by the fact that Heroes do age and eventually die of natural causes. Mirror Knight will be the most absurdly powerful old man Creation has ever seen, though.
    Here's a question: what would the Take version of Dawn be? Or a Revenant Mirror Knight's? Or Catherine's 'I get an aspect for free because of night for reasons' version be?

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Dawn would be truly overpowered if it was part of a villain Name. As is, its at least kept in check by the fact that Heroes do age and eventually die of natural causes. Mirror Knight will be the most absurdly powerful old man Creation has ever seen, though.
    Thats why i think DAWN is utterly broken xD
    I dont think Mirror Knight will grow old. Not when every new Dawn push him to the peak of his strenght, and then a little further.
    The power changed him from a frail child to a powerful warrior. And so i do think it will keep him at physical peak.

    My aspect is missing the context of a post entirely, the strongest of nerd aspects.

    I someone missed this was back to the subject of best aspects, Nerd that I am.
    Hail the nerd king :P

    Here's a question: what would the Take version of Dawn be? Or a Revenant Mirror Knight's? Or Catherine's 'I get an aspect for free because of night for reasons' version be?
    Hmm.. i think the Take version of Dawn would be pretty sucky. Since as i recalled. You only get 3 uses.
    Thats not nearly enough to do any meaningful change. Christophe has had what the first 3000 Dawns to grow from?
    No idea if it would work for a Revenant.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Dawn would be truly overpowered if it was part of a villain Name. As is, its at least kept in check by the fact that Heroes do age and eventually die of natural causes. Mirror Knight will be the most absurdly powerful old man Creation has ever seen, though.
    See, and I'm sitting over here thinking that Dawn isn't overpowered for the same reason that villain immortality doesn't matter.

    Yeah, sure it's great in theory. But as a named you're likely to die sooner than later, and even Saint only died of old age on a technicality.
    Last edited by AmberVael; 2021-09-20 at 03:44 PM.

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    I think more the issue is, that as insanely dangerous as the Saint was, then she had still been weakend physically by age.
    And not even being named could compensate for her being weaker and slower than when she were in her prime.

    With DAWN its the other way around. After just a.. decade? (estimated guess), Christoph already got a skull that can crack stone.
    Quite literally as we saw when he headbutted his way though a barred gate.

    The scary thing is how hard he is going to be when he reaches the Saints age.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Thats why i think DAWN is utterly broken xD
    I dont think Mirror Knight will grow old. Not when every new Dawn push him to the peak of his strenght, and then a little further.
    The power changed him from a frail child to a powerful warrior. And so i do think it will keep him at physical peak.
    Hes still going to grow old. He'll just keep getting stronger and stay at his physical peak right up to the point he drops dead on the spot like Saint did. If he was allowed to cheat mortality entirely he wouldn't be a Hero.

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