A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

[Tvtyrant]

Hes still going to grow old. He'll just keep getting stronger and stay at his physical peak right up to the point he drops dead on the spot like Saint did. If he was allowed to cheat mortality entirely he wouldn't be a Hero.

That brings up a major issue: Are villains aging now that their stories are dead? If they kill the Book of Some Things, will Heroes possibly be immortal?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

That brings up a major issue: Are villains aging now that their stories are dead? If they kill the Book of Some Things, will Heroes possibly be immortal?

Probably not; they still have all their powers, after all, it's just the greater narratives that are in stasis. It's (half of) fate that's dead right now, not villainy.

[Thomas Cardew]

Hmm.. i think the Take version of Dawn would be pretty sucky. Since as i recalled. You only get 3 uses.
Thats not nearly enough to do any meaningful change. Christophe has had what the first 3000 Dawns to grow from?
No idea if it would work for a Revenant.

It's a less powerful version certainly. With William's aspect she was limited to 3x daily but it was less effective, he got a full restoration instantly while hers were slower. When she stole spells, they were at full power but disappeared after it was used up.

So I could see it working less powerfully, a smaller boost everyday although that would be just a broken as the normal version only slower. Maybe it would work in a converging sum sort of way. Getting technically stronger by an ever decreasing amount each day as she approaches an effective limit.

For a Revenant, I'd guess that Christophe would keep his acquired strength but not gain anymore. Or the converging sum approach as it ran out of power.

[lord_khaine]

Hes still going to grow old. He'll just keep getting stronger and stay at his physical peak right up to the point he drops dead on the spot like Saint did. If he was allowed to cheat mortality entirely he wouldn't be a Hero.

But what would he die off? If physically he was fit like a 24 year old super soldier his heart isnt going to go out.
Well.. at the end i guess it depends on, if Above want to keep him around or not.
That is to say, if they want to deviate from the design of regular heroes.

It's a less powerful version certainly. With William's aspect she was limited to 3x daily but it was less effective, he got a full restoration instantly while hers were slower. When she stole spells, they were at full power but disappeared after it was used up

I think the 3 uses max was something that got confirmed by a Fae noble Cat fought.
On the revenant subject. It certainly dont feel like something that would keep working on an undead.
Growing isnt really their thing.

[The Glyphstone]

But what would he die off? If physically he was fit like a 24 year old super soldier his heart isnt going to go out.
Well.. at the end i guess it depends on, if Above want to keep him around or not.
That is to say, if they want to deviate from the design of regular heroes.

Why not? A perfectly healthy 24 year old can still suffer a freak heart attack or stroke. Their odds aren't as high but it can happen. And when you're in a world where tropes and physics are interchangeable, we know what Elan has to say about million to one chances.

As for deviating from the design of heroes, I imagine Above would love to have a hero who is both immortal and utterly invincible. But thats breaking the rules, and Below can respond in kind if they do.

[Thomas Cardew]

I think the 3 uses max was something that got confirmed by a Fae noble Cat fought.
On the revenant subject. It certainly dont feel like something that would keep working on an undead.
Growing isnt really their thing.

Yes, it was 3 uses per day or more poetically "Thrice used can your stolen power be, from dusk ‘til dawn." It definitely was not 3 uses max because she used it more than that. 3x with the first noble, 3x with her 'father', 3x with the summer noble before she steals its massive wind spell, and others in between.

[lord_khaine]

Because i would claim, when someone dies from a stroke at age 24, then there were at least a part of them that wasnt in perfect physical health.
Hearts dont randomly stop without a reason. Else, its actually not Elan that has stuff to say about million to one chances. Its a pair of grubby City Guards :P

Besides that. Respond in kind how? Villains are already eternally young.
We dont have any indication there is a direct law/agreement that says heroes have to age.
They do. But that might as well just be a narrative design choice from Above, to keep their champions fresh.

But that still leaves room for a single "eternal" hero. And i use the qutation marks because there are ways to kill anything.
Some things, like for example Ranger, just takes a LOT more killing before they croak.
Anyway. Aspects are litterally licence to break the rules somehow.

So as such i dont see any direct conflict from a Hero being given an aspect to break this specific rule.
At least i dont think Below is in any position to point fingers when they already had someone like Ranger.
Who were ageless. And took all 10 Emerald swords, and a story about her heirs, to put down.

Heck. In this comparison i think it should be pointed out. Mirror Knight at least have a clear and exploitable weakness to illusions.
Unlike Ranger who basically pulled BS powers out her name on a regular basis. Such as burning off a drug with her name.

Yes, it was 3 uses per day or more poetically "Thrice used can your stolen power be, from dusk ‘til dawn." It definitely was not 3 uses max because she used it more than that. 3x with the first noble, 3x with her 'father', 3x with the summer noble before she steals its massive wind spell, and others in between.

The contex was also uses of DAWN. though if anything this makes stealing DAWN even more useless. Since you only get to use it once.
Or wait no forget about that. As messed up as cat currently are, a perfect nights sleep is likely what she need the most.

[tyckspoon]

Heck. In this comparison i think it should be pointed out. Mirror Knight at least have a clear and exploitable weakness to illusions.
Unlike Ranger who basically pulled BS powers out her name on a regular basis. Such as burning off a drug with her name.

That's been a part of generic Named powers for a long time, along with heightened senses, improved physical capabilities, and Speaking (..well, that one might require belonging to a Role with recognized authority, as most of the characters we see actually do it are rulers or military commanders, but it's not presented as being an Aspect or drawing on anything more than the generic power underlying all Names.) It's usually mentioned in the context of characters insta-sobering from alcohol, and I think Cat has used it a few times to flush wakeleaf or some of the painkiller concoctions she sometimes uses as well when she needs to switch rapidly from posturing dramatically with pipe in hand to full focus combat readiness. Ranger being such a powerful Name is why they needed Concocter to come up with a drug that couldn't be trivially dismissed like that, but any Named can do the basic trick. (This does not necessarily have to be the same as any Named knowing they can do this, tho, especially Named that didn't have the benefit of a mentor discovering them and giving them a basic education in Namelore)

The contex was also uses of DAWN. though if anything this makes stealing DAWN even more useless. Since you only get to use it once.
Or wait no forget about that. As messed up as cat currently are, a perfect nights sleep is likely what she need the most.

Dawn extracted as an artifact would probably give its user one refresh and then break, and I would bet it would be given to somebody else as 'rise refreshed and empowered with the new sun' is completely conceptually incompatible with Night. Maybe hand it over to the Artificer or one of the other crafty-type Names to see if they can find a way to turn that concept into a more reusable resource or teach other Heroes/priests that are capable of manipulating Light how to use it to restore energy to others. If Cat were to hypothetically Take it instead, or some similar power through her new Warden name.. dunno. I could see it being modified through her Name or a work of the Sisters to become something more suitable to her own powers and theming. Darken, maybe.

[Tvtyrant]

Also Elven heroes don't age, so an Elf Mirror Knight would in fact be All Might after a while.

[The Glyphstone]

Do the Elves even have Named that we know of? Ranger was only half elf, and the Emerald Swords don't appear to be Named in their own right, just badass.

[Tvtyrant]

Do the Elves even have Named that we know of? Ranger was only half elf, and the Emerald Swords don't appear to be Named in their own right, just badass.

The first Elf in the series was a Named Revenant (I think.) He and the Skein are the ones that beat up the Woe in Keter.

Yup, the Spellblade.

[The Glyphstone]

The first Elf in the series was a Named Revenant (I think.) He and the Skein are the ones that beat up the Woe in Keter.

Oh yeah, he was the son of the elf king or something, wasn't he? They traded his body back to the elves for some favor or another.

We haven't seen any Names I can think of that cross cultures/races, though. Humans have names, Dwarves have their own names, so do Goblins and Orcs( well, orcs have one name we know of), and I'd figure elves would have their exclusive Nameset too. So no Elf Mirror Knight.

And I maintain that Dawn is probably still capped by a maximum lifespan, because otherwise it would invalidate the Game. That's what this all is to the Gods, in the end, an elaborate game/bet. Dropping a God mode (pun intended) champion into the game is like pulling out a pistol in chess and shooting pieces off the board. Its unbeatable unless the other player pulls a pistol of their own, and then you're not playing the game at all.

[Thomas Cardew]

Oh yeah, he was the son of the elf king or something, wasn't he? They traded his body back to the elves for some favor or another.

We haven't seen any Names I can think of that cross cultures/races, though. Humans have names, Dwarves have their own names, so do Goblins and Orcs( well, orcs have one name we know of), and I'd figure elves would have their exclusive Nameset too. So no Elf Mirror Knight.

And I maintain that Dawn is probably still capped by a maximum lifespan, because otherwise it would invalidate the Game. That's what this all is to the Gods, in the end, an elaborate game/bet. Dropping a God mode (pun intended) champion into the game is like pulling out a pistol in chess and shooting pieces off the board. Its unbeatable unless the other player pulls a pistol of their own, and then you're not playing the game at all.

Would you say that their power is supreme and victory is inevitable?

I joke but I tend to agree with you. Heroes get made for a particular purpose/problem, Mirror Knight is tailor-made to handle some future problem when he'll need all the power he's acquired to have a chance to win.

I'm getting more inclined to a convergent series effect for stolen power. Heroes get more power but a non-infinite series, they die. If a villain was to use Take, they'd get the same effect 'more power everyday' but at a diminishing rate approaching some limit. A revenant would just get a static version, i.e. a raised Christophe would be just as tough as the day he died but wouldn't grow anymore.

[Dragonus45]

Would you say that their power is supreme and victory is inevitable?

I joke but I tend to agree with you. Heroes get made for a particular purpose/problem, Mirror Knight is tailor-made to handle some future problem when he'll need all the power he's acquired to have a chance to win.

I'm getting more inclined to a convergent series effect for stolen power. Heroes get more power but a non-infinite series, they die. If a villain was to use Take, they'd get the same effect 'more power everyday' but at a diminishing rate approaching some limit. A revenant would just get a static version, i.e. a raised Christophe would be just as tough as the day he died but wouldn't grow anymore.

I feel like if a villain were to have a power like Dawn or a stolen version of it they would get all that potential the Aspect contained but only for a brief moment.

[Tvtyrant]

Oh yeah, he was the son of the elf king or something, wasn't he? They traded his body back to the elves for some favor or another.

We haven't seen any Names I can think of that cross cultures/races, though. Humans have names, Dwarves have their own names, so do Goblins and Orcs( well, orcs have one name we know of), and I'd figure elves would have their exclusive Nameset too. So no Elf Mirror Knight.

And I maintain that Dawn is probably still capped by a maximum lifespan, because otherwise it would invalidate the Game. That's what this all is to the Gods, in the end, an elaborate game/bet. Dropping a God mode (pun intended) champion into the game is like pulling out a pistol in chess and shooting pieces off the board. Its unbeatable unless the other player pulls a pistol of their own, and then you're not playing the game at all.

Yeah the Bard was showing the Elves they weren't big fish in a little pond by getting them involved with Keter centuries ago.

I think Dawn is probably designed to allow someone to cheat. The sides leave loopholes on purpose to encourage cheating, without it the game is always a draw. I do wonder who Mirror Knight is designed to kill, I used to think it was Ranger but now IDK.

I feel like if a villain were to have a power like Dawn or a stolen version of it they would get all that potential the Aspect contained but only for a brief moment.

“You can never have too many tiger pits, Chancellor. That’s the same lack of vision that has people say “that’s too large a field of energy to absorb” or “calling yourself a living god is blasphemy”.”
—Dread Emperor Malignant III, before his death and second reign as Dread Emperor Revenant

I'm betting they would like explode from all the light if they pulled it off.

[Dragonus45]

Yeah the Bard was showing the Elves they weren't big fish in a little pond by getting them involved with Keter centuries ago.

I think Dawn is probably designed to allow someone to cheat. The sides leave loopholes on purpose to encourage cheating, without it the game is always a draw. I do wonder who Mirror Knight is designed to kill, I used to think it was Ranger but now IDK.

It may have been Ranger but I find that unlikely, because frankly the only way for her to be defeated was with a powerful narrative. I don't think the a big enough stick existed to be swung at her on a personal combat level big enough to take her down.

“You can never have too many tiger pits, Chancellor. That’s the same lack of vision that has people say “that’s too large a field of energy to absorb” or “calling yourself a living god is blasphemy”.”
—Dread Emperor Malignant III, before his death and second reign as Dread Emperor Revenant

I'm betting they would like explode from all the light if they pulled it off.

One could only hope.

[Mith]

I had assumed Mirror Knight was shaped to go against the 'biggest single Evil' that can be dealt with by one person. So it started as Ranger, but then switched to Cat (both as SoMN and then at First Under Night). I suspect that that is in part why Cat found his so aggravating is because she is on the fringe of being drawn into a fight with him.

I discount Nemeshah here, because he has set himself as being above any 'single person'.

[Tvtyrant]

I had assumed Mirror Knight was shaped to go against the 'biggest single Evil' that can be dealt with by one person. So it started as Ranger, but then switched to Cat (both as SoMN and then at First Under Night). I suspect that that is in part why Cat found his so aggravating is because she is on the fringe of being drawn into a fight with him.

I discount Nemeshah here, because he has set himself as being above any 'single person'.

That makes sense. He might have been made for Diabolist and then switched to Queen of Moonless Nights and then on again. The ascension that Neshamah ascribes to Cat.

[The Glyphstone]

My money is on the Pale Knight. We haven't confirmed his death, and Mirror Knight's unstoppable force is the perfect counter to his immovable object.

[Forum Explorer]

My money is on the Pale Knight. We haven't confirmed his death, and Mirror Knight's unstoppable force is the perfect counter to his immovable object.

I'd disagree with that. The Pale Knight is basically an extension of Nemmy. He isn't a proper villain of Below. Or even a villain really. He's one of Nemmy's many tools, and I don't think Above is concerned about just one tool in a villain's arsenal. Not enough to devote an entire hero to it anyways.

[lord_khaine]

And I maintain that Dawn is probably still capped by a maximum lifespan, because otherwise it would invalidate the Game. That's what this all is to the Gods, in the end, an elaborate game/bet. Dropping a God mode (pun intended) champion into the game is like pulling out a pistol in chess and shooting pieces off the board. Its unbeatable unless the other player pulls a pistol of their own, and then you're not playing the game at all.

The point against this does remain though. That the Game allowed for someone like Ranger.
Who were basically unbeatable, and in the end only defeated by her own arrogance.

Even at the point where Christoph could have surpassed Ranger in a physical fight (and lets face it, 100% certain she would accept the challenge).
Then there would remain an exploitable weak spot in illusions and trickery. Stuff i find it strongly unlikely Ranger would fall for.

I also think its rather clear Dawn was meant as a way to deal with Ranger. Even if it would have taken another 20-30 years, then i think she would have been surpassed.
Just, it turned out not to be needed, because Ranger got defeated in a unexpected way.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The point against this does remain though. That the Game allowed for someone like Ranger.
Who were basically unbeatable, and in the end only defeated by her own arrogance.

Even at the point where Christoph could have surpassed Ranger in a physical fight (and lets face it, 100% certain she would accept the challenge).
Then there would remain an exploitable weak spot in illusions and trickery. Stuff i find it strongly unlikely Ranger would fall for.

I also think its rather clear Dawn was meant as a way to deal with Ranger. Even if it would have taken another 20-30 years, then i think she would have been surpassed.
Just, it turned out not to be needed, because Ranger got defeated in a unexpected way.

Interestingly, Ranger wasn't on either side, though. Cat described her (very early on) as a Named that is either Hero or Villain depending on the story she's participating in. It's possible the Gods are more lenient with such names, since they don't represent a permanent boost to one side.

It's also possible I'm misremembering that passage, and she was referring to how Ranger as a name can be either Hero or Villain depending on who's holding it. I don't think that was it, since IIRC she contrasted it with Squire (which does work like that), but does anyone have the quote handy?

[halfeye]

Spoiler

Show

Well, Cat is definitely going to be bashing heads together until they agree to share.

[Dragonus45]

Interestingly, Ranger wasn't on either side, though. Cat described her (very early on) as a Named that is either Hero or Villain depending on the story she's participating in. It's possible the Gods are more lenient with such names, since they don't represent a permanent boost to one side.

It's also possible I'm misremembering that passage, and she was referring to how Ranger as a name can be either Hero or Villain depending on who's holding it. I don't think that was it, since IIRC she contrasted it with Squire (which does work like that), but does anyone have the quote handy?

So the Name itself could be a heroic or villainous name but there is no way that the current Ranger is anything but a villain.

[Forum Explorer]

So the Name itself could be a heroic or villainous name but there is no way that the current Ranger is anything but a villain.

I mean is she? Or perhaps I should say, was she?

To my understanding, before she fell in love she basically went around challenging the strongest things she could find to fights, beating them up, maybe killing them, maybe humiliating them, before going on to the next. While also guaranteeing the freedom of a town and training children to be like her.

She didn't really do anything evil until she joined the Calamities. Nor did she really do anything good.

[Thomas Cardew]

It's also possible I'm misremembering that passage, and she was referring to how Ranger as a name can be either Hero or Villain depending on who's holding it. I don't think that was it, since IIRC she contrasted it with Squire (which does work like that), but does anyone have the quote handy?

Assuming we're thinking of the same one it's split across two chapters and about Archer.

Spoiler: B2:C26 Archer

Show

“Squire isn’t a fundamentally villainous Name,” Apprentice replied. “It’s also the transitional Name leading into being the White Knight."

More talking then Archer breaks in and flattens everyone. Then in the next chapter, they wake up hunter:

Spoiler

Show

“Archer,” the hero burst out. “She’s a villain.”
“She’s a villain who spared your sorry arse,” she spoke sharply. “So watch your bloody mouth. Your entire little stunt abroad has been an embarrassment to the Lady, John. Refuge is going to have to pay reparations to the Tower.”
-SNIP-
“A demon?” Hunter spoke, tone aghast. “Gods, Squire, what did you summon?”

“This wasn’t my doing,” I retorted sharply. “I’m just cleaning up the mess, and I’d rather not lose ten thousand innocents in the process. Apprentice and Adjutant can only do so much, and I’m still wounded. An additional Named might make the difference.”

“I’m not sure I could kill a demon,” Archer admitted.

I frowned. “You’re a villain? I’d assumed otherwise.”

“Not all Roles are so clear cut,” the stranger replied.

“Well, that explains everything,” I commented drily.

[lord_khaine]

So the Name itself could be a heroic or villainous name but there is no way that the current Ranger is anything but a villain.

I mean is she? Or perhaps I should say, was she?

To my understanding, before she fell in love she basically went around challenging the strongest things she could find to fights, beating them up, maybe killing them, maybe humiliating them, before going on to the next. While also guaranteeing the freedom of a town and training children to be like her.

She didn't really do anything evil until she joined the Calamities. Nor did she really do anything good.

I think thats basically the definition of a villain?
Just casually doing whatever you please because noone around is strong enough to stop you.
Thats just about the core tennet of the hell gods. Power makes right.
And later on she -did- join the calamities.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Assuming we're thinking of the same one it's split across two chapters and about Archer.

Spoiler: B2:C26 Archer

Show

“Squire isn’t a fundamentally villainous Name,” Apprentice replied. “It’s also the transitional Name leading into being the White Knight."

More talking then Archer breaks in and flattens everyone. Then in the next chapter, they wake up hunter:

Spoiler

Show

“Archer,” the hero burst out. “She’s a villain.”
“She’s a villain who spared your sorry arse,” she spoke sharply. “So watch your bloody mouth. Your entire little stunt abroad has been an embarrassment to the Lady, John. Refuge is going to have to pay reparations to the Tower.”
-SNIP-
“A demon?” Hunter spoke, tone aghast. “Gods, Squire, what did you summon?”

“This wasn’t my doing,” I retorted sharply. “I’m just cleaning up the mess, and I’d rather not lose ten thousand innocents in the process. Apprentice and Adjutant can only do so much, and I’m still wounded. An additional Named might make the difference.”

“I’m not sure I could kill a demon,” Archer admitted.

I frowned. “You’re a villain? I’d assumed otherwise.”

“Not all Roles are so clear cut,” the stranger replied.

“Well, that explains everything,” I commented drily.

Nah, that's not the one I was thinking of. The one I remember referenced Ranger and her role specifically. 'Preciate the effort, though; hunting through hundreds of idiosyncratically named chapters for a quote I don't remember the location of is more effort than I'm willing to put forth at the moment.

[AmberVael]

“Calling Ranger a villain is something of a stretch,” my own teacher finally said. “She’s not particularly concerned with matters of Good and Evil. Mostly, she does what she feels like doing. We can discuss it more later, Catherine – it’s a somewhat complicated issue.”

Book 2, Chapter 11, Report.

[halfeye]

Spoiler: Occidental 3

Show

I think I've chaneged my mind, Cat isn't banging heads together to make a joint Warden of the West, she's eliminating candidates so she can level up to The Warden.