A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler: Occidental 3

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I think I've chaneged my mind, Cat isn't banging heads together to make a joint Warden of the West, she's eliminating candidates so she can level up to The Warden.

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I do think thats kinda unlikely.
Initially, i dont think you become the Warden of Heroes by defeating the previous Warden candidates. We have been shown and told heroes dont work that way. They dont bend to forced authority. They rebel against it.

And i do think its just about 100% certain that the majority of heroes would not follow her instructions.
Heck, it also goes directly against the concept of the treaty she were trying to get heroes and villains to work under.
Her trying to assume the role of Warden would be seen as a Villain takeover. It would sink any chance of hero cooperation.

[Mith]

I'd like to note that the Pale Knight is also very dead. Indrani and Cat killed him in Book 6.

As for Cat just becoming 'Warden', in that case I am prone to still thinking a triumvarite will rise between Cat, Hanno and Cordelia.

[Dragonus45]

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Nah she is just hitting them real hard to see who gets back up and eventually snatches the book from her clutches thus affirming themselves as the Warden of the West. Importantly this will mean that they are solidifying their hold on the name in opposition to herself and not in in a bout of unfortunate infighting that might taint the nature of the role. Overall though this chapter really solidified for me that Cordelia just does not get it about Heroes and how they work to the point where thinking she could be the Warden of the West is just delusional. Also she continues to be way to much like Cat.

[lord_khaine]

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I do think Cat is pushing on both Warden candidates to become their crucible, instead of letting that be the contest between them.
And i also suspect the main reason she began nibbing on the Book of Some Things, is to create a new stake for their contest.

Im uncertain though, about how much it is Cordelia dont understand heroes. And how much she just disagree with the current way things run.
Since.. she had some points about noone holding heroes to account. Hanno also just had some points about how its often Heroes holding corrupt nobles to account.

Like.. Cordelia were furious with the Saint of Swords, aka the Regicide.
Who is the person who stepped in where the courts failed. Killing the ruler who had his own subjects killed to make potions.
One of the Saints more heroic deeds.

[Dragonus45]

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I do think Cat is pushing on both Warden candidates to become their crucible, instead of letting that be the contest between them.
And i also suspect the main reason she began nibbing on the Book of Some Things, is to create a new stake for their contest.

Im uncertain though, about how much it is Cordelia dont understand heroes. And how much she just disagree with the current way things run.
Since.. she had some points about noone holding heroes to account. Hanno also just had some points about how its often Heroes holding corrupt nobles to account.

Like.. Cordelia were furious with the Saint of Swords, aka the Regicide.
Who is the person who stepped in where the courts failed. Killing the ruler who had his own subjects killed to make potions.
One of the Saints more heroic deeds.

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Considering that the Book of Some Things was meant to be a gift to the Warden of the West I imagine that rescuing it from her clutches is a great way to solidify her hold on the name.

As for Cordelia, I think her thinking that no one holds heroes to account is the delusional part.

Gaspard was forced to abdicate the moment she had the influence to see it done, but there lay the problem: while she handled the prince, the Mirror Knight was neither taught nor punished.

Mirror Knight was literally just a manipulated tool of someone else's plot there. I fail to see what "punishment" should be dealt out in such a situation. Then when he did cross lines and challenge Hano over his authority over heroes Mirror Knight got beaten most of the way to death, censured in front of his peers, and was literally actually taught afterword. Taught and Punished. What more could she want. And she still fails to understand the way her political bickering poisoned the well of the of the Red Axe situation as much as anything any of the Heroes did.


And yea that was one of the more heroic deeds from the Saint that we know of, although she was younger then. On the subject her and heroic aging vs villainous youth I think she might be a great example of why Above lets heroes age. We were told by Tariq that Saint had done a lot of things like that and had personally been the one to deal with a lot of the most heinous and virulent villainy for decades before she eventually wound up being more Sword than person near the end. I wonder now if gifting providence, so that the agents of above have that push of luck to do good things while they live but are generally more likely to age out before that kind of thing happens.

[Thomas Cardew]

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Considering that the Book of Some Things was meant to be a gift to the Warden of the West I imagine that rescuing it from her clutches is a great way to solidify her hold on the name.

As for Cordelia, I think her thinking that no one holds heroes to account is the delusional part.



Mirror Knight was literally just a manipulated tool of someone else's plot there. I fail to see what "punishment" should be dealt out in such a situation. Then when he did cross lines and challenge Hano over his authority over heroes Mirror Knight got beaten most of the way to death, censured in front of his peers, and was literally actually taught afterword. Taught and Punished. What more could she want. And she still fails to understand the way her political bickering poisoned the well of the of the Red Axe situation as much as anything any of the Heroes did.


And yea that was one of the more heroic deeds from the Saint that we know of, although she was younger then. On the subject her and heroic aging vs villainous youth I think she might be a great example of why Above lets heroes age. We were told by Tariq that Saint had done a lot of things like that and had personally been the one to deal with a lot of the most heinous and virulent villainy for decades before she eventually wound up being more Sword than person near the end. I wonder now if gifting providence, so that the agents of above have that push of luck to do good things while they live but are generally more likely to age out before that kind of thing happens.

Spoiler: Occidental III

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Agree on most points. Cordelia's being either delusional or deliberately obtuse. The other heroes hold the heroes to account. Maybe not as fast or retributive as she would like, but they do. Her most hated enemy the Saint of Swords, literally put one down after he went mad. Cordelia herself choose to wait for a politically opportune moment to hold the prince to account. So she's hardly in a position to cast stones about the wheels of justice grinding slow.

Add to that the utter hypocrisy of considering herself better than the Grey Pilgrim or Saint of Swords, because "[Saint had] been willing for all of Procer to burn, if the pyre might take the Dead King with it." When that is LITERALLY what Cordelia herself planned with Angel bomb, except she was willing to risk half the continent. Or how she is blameless for being willing to burn to death over 110 THOUSAND civilians to hinder not even defeat Black but considers Tariq killing a few hundred to completely obliterate the invading army an unpardonable hangable offense. Walk to the gallows and put the noose around your own neck first.

At least Hanno is capable of self-reflection and improvement.

[The Glyphstone]

I'd like to note that the Pale Knight is also very dead. Indrani and Cat killed him in Book 6.

As for Cat just becoming 'Warden', in that case I am prone to still thinking a triumvarite will rise between Cat, Hanno and Cordelia.

Right, forgot about that. Never mind then.

[Tvtyrant]

Usually alignments aren't useful but here they may be. Both of them are Good people. Cordelia is Lawful Good, and her criticism is "the bad guys may be evil but at least they follow the law" while Hanno is arguing "Heroes need free reign, they seek to do Good even if it is against the Law." So it is a classic Lawful Good vs Chaotic Good confrontation.

Cat is TN or NE, she undermines all laws and hierarchies except her own.

[Dragonus45]

Usually alignments aren't useful but here they may be. Both of them are Good people. Cordelia is Lawful Good, and her criticism is "the bad guys may be evil but at least they follow the law" while Hanno is arguing "Heroes need free reign, they seek to do Good even if it is against the Law." So it is a classic Lawful Good vs Chaotic Good confrontation.

Cat is TN or NE, she undermines all laws and hierarchies except her own.

Cordelia is absolutely LN. Cat seems more on the line between LE and NE.

[Forum Explorer]

Cat is TN or NE, she undermines all laws and hierarchies except her own.

Cat is evil, flat out, and she'd laugh in your face if you proposed otherwise. I'd put her as NE.

I think Hanno is LG. He lives by very strict principles and almost refuses to bend those principles no matter what. Sure, the majority of the time those principles don't effect anyone, but when they do he is like a brick wall.

Cordelia I have trouble viewing as Good. She's not Evil, no, but she was willing to start a massive war for the stability of her own nation, and refused very reasonable terms for peace until she was cornered and forced to. And I can't remember the last time she took an action because it was good. I'd be inclined to think Cordelia is TN or LN.

[The Glyphstone]

So will tomorrows update feature Cordelia bound and suspended upside down by her ankles?

[Dragonus45]

So will tomorrows update feature Cordelia bound and suspended upside down by her ankles?

Possibly, I think Cat might go for the more insulting play of not even bothering to bind her because she doesn’t respect her as a threat.

[Forum Explorer]

So will tomorrows update feature Cordelia bound and suspended upside down by her ankles?

I hope so, because it would really illustrate the difference between her and Hanno. He was suspended for what, seconds before he broke the restriction binding his Light.

Cordelia wouldn't be able to do that. When it comes to physical might she brings nothing to the table. Kinda like what the Champion was saying. She's tricky, smart, and can go toe to toe with Cat's BS philosophy. But she can't prevent Cat from simply taking what she wants because she's got no force behind her.

Or to put it another way, what if heroes won't listen to her? When Mirror Knight went off the rails, Hanno beat him down with a sheath. Cordelia in the same situation would be forced to depend on other heroes to stop him, and if that failed she'd just lose.

[The Glyphstone]

Hanno still lost that fight there - she wasn't at all surprised that he broke free, only that he was smart enough to figure out a way to do it so quickly. His physical prowess didn't avail him anyways, so it's not a fair mark against Cordelia that she wouldn't be able to break out of a trap that was never really meant to hold Hanno in the first place.

This isn't a test of who can punch Cat in the face harder and win the title of Warden. It's a test of who's more committed to their philosophy and how well they can endure having those beliefs put to the fire. Hanno's down for the count now because Cat hit him where he is weakest, in his doubts. She's likely going to do the exact same thing to Cordelia now, pick apart her certainties and tear open the cracks, then see which of them gets up stronger from the experience.

Bonus points if she throws Cordelia out of the tower too, that seems like a formative experience for a newly birthed Warden of the East.

[halfeye]

As for Cat just becoming 'Warden', in that case I am prone to still thinking a triumvarite will rise between Cat, Hanno and Cordelia.

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I think it's a three way split, the trirumvirate, or Cat plus a second (possibly the Kingfisher Prince), or, Cat. I don't think Cat is particularly in favour of herself as The Warden, but if it's that or the Dead King wiping out all life she'll take The Warden. If Hanno and Cordelia won't agree I suspect she'll propose a compromise candidate, point out her own candidacy, and see what falls out. Or she might just have lost patience with Hanno and Cordelia and just take it. If she takes Warden my guess is the Kingfisher Prince as deputy.

So will tomorrows update feature Cordelia bound and suspended upside down by her ankles?

No, because she wears a dress so that would show her knickers.

[Forum Explorer]

Hanno still lost that fight there - she wasn't at all surprised that he broke free, only that he was smart enough to figure out a way to do it so quickly. His physical prowess didn't avail him anyways, so it's not a fair mark against Cordelia that she wouldn't be able to break out of a trap that was never really meant to hold Hanno in the first place.

This isn't a test of who can punch Cat in the face harder and win the title of Warden. It's a test of who's more committed to their philosophy and how well they can endure having those beliefs put to the fire. Hanno's down for the count now because Cat hit him where he is weakest, in his doubts. She's likely going to do the exact same thing to Cordelia now, pick apart her certainties and tear open the cracks, then see which of them gets up stronger from the experience.

Bonus points if she throws Cordelia out of the tower too, that seems like a formative experience for a newly birthed Warden of the East.

I feel like Cordelia's physical weakness would be her doubts. Or rather, the lack of respect she has among the heroes due to her physical weakness.

Also I feel like Cat's argument to Hanno was ridiculously weak. The difference between a being killed by a cannibal psycho and the SoS is that anyone is at risk from the psycho while the SoS only goes after people doing wrong or if there is a villain involved. The average person has nothing to fear from her, while the average person should fear the psycho as they are, if anything, more vulnerable to them than a hero.

No, because she wears a dress so that would show her knickers.

I don't think Cat or Archer would see that as a downside.

[Dragonus45]

I feel like Cordelia's physical weakness would be her doubts. Or rather, the lack of respect she has among the heroes due to her physical weakness.

Also I feel like Cat's argument to Hanno was ridiculously weak. The difference between a being killed by a cannibal psycho and the SoS is that anyone is at risk from the psycho while the SoS only goes after people doing wrong or if there is a villain involved. The average person has nothing to fear from her, while the average person should fear the psycho as they are, if anything, more vulnerable to them than a hero.

I don't think that her weakness physically is it exactly. Lots of heroes aren't physically powerful. It's sometime a bit deeper then that but I can't quite put words to it at the moment.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't think Cat or Archer would see that as a downside.

I can't remember, has Cat ever mentioned seeing Cordelia as attractive to her? She's been described as broad-shouldered and not 'conventionally beautiful', but that's it.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't think that her weakness physically is it exactly. Lots of heroes aren't physically powerful. It's sometime a bit deeper then that but I can't quite put words to it at the moment.

Sure, but they aren't leaders. The Forgetful Librarian doesn't expect to be obeyed by someone like the Mirror Knight, except maybe in regards to proper library behavior.

I can't remember, has Cat ever mentioned seeing Cordelia as attractive to her? She's been described as broad-shouldered and not 'conventionally beautiful', but that's it.

It's been mentioned in a few interludes of Cat checking out Cordelia, once from Cordelia's perspective at that. I'm pretty sure Archer teased Cat about it once.

[lord_khaine]

Bonus points if she throws Cordelia out of the tower too, that seems like a formative experience for a newly birthed Warden of the East.

Its basically a cliff! They are Heroes. Its bound to be good for them!

I don't think that her weakness physically is it exactly. Lots of heroes aren't physically powerful. It's sometime a bit deeper then that but I can't quite put words to it at the moment.

A lack of actual authorithy? I mean past the one that comes from being a ruler.
She gave an order, and the heroes began to bicker (though alright partly due to sabotage).

It's been mentioned in a few interludes of Cat checking out Cordelia, once from Cordelia's perspective at that. I'm pretty sure Archer teased Cat about it once.

I suspect any lingering attraction might just as much come from the fact, that Cordelia is really, really competent at what she does?

Also. Got to share a brief laught over how Cats premonition came true.
And one of the heroes did indeed tame the Heron xD

[Rynjin]

Yeah, for anyone who was worried Cordelia's style wouldn't be reamed out by the serial as well, this chapter disproves that. My thoughts from the thread:

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Cordelia is a terrible leader, in part because she has never LED. She has the same noble arrogance as all of the other nobility around her, she’s just too blind to see it. This chapter makes it pretty clear that she sees everyone else around her as incompetent, despite being completely out of her depth. Say what you will about Catherine’s ego, at least when she talks **** (or thinks it) she knows how to roll with the hit. Cordelia doesn’t.

This chapter cinched it for me. Cordelia does not wish to be a leader, and never has. That’s Hanno’s bag, as imperfect as he is at it.

What she wishes to be, and has always wished to be is exactly what everyone in Procer has feared she would become: a Tyrant. She wants an iron-fisted grip over everything the light touches. She’s made great strides on making that come true for the people of Procer, all for their “greater good”. Perhaps justifiably.

Now she wishes to reach further and ensnare the Heroes as well, so she can have her own obedient army of superhumans that exist only for the will of the State.

Worse, this chapter proves that Cordelia is incredibly shortsighted. I’ve reamed out the Pilgrim for his massacre of those innocent villagers many a time, but summarily executing the man was something she wished to do? With no thought whatsoever save for the POLITICAL ramifications of doing so, like losing one of the most powerful Named in the world while they’re in the middle of a direct conflict with what was, to her, a deranged psychopath with godlike powers.

She has time and time again proven that thought with her actions as well. Taking short term gains for long term drawbacks. Some justified (such as in the war against the Dead King), and many not. She’s been trying to consolidate all the power of Procer into her own hands since before she took office, and I don’t think once she’s stopped to consider the ramifications of turning Procer from a flawed, corrupt oligarchy into a flawed, and potentially even MORE corrupt in the future dictatorship.

[After some confusion about what I meant by "Cordelia has never led":]

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As I said (maybe not clearly enough?), Cordelia does not lead. She rules. There’s a stark difference between the two things, even if the concepts are sometimes used interchangeably.

She gives orders and expects to be obeyed. She would prefer not to negotiate with anyone. She does not set any good example for her people to follow, she does not inspire. She does not LEAD in either figurative or literal senses of the word. Her people fight her tooth and claw at every turn because she lacks their respect. The nobles scheme against her and the common folk find her out of touch. As we see here, the same applies to the Named she would rule over.

Certainly, she rejected the power of the Warden of the West at one point. Not because she did not want to bring Procer under her thumb, but because she believed a Named should not rule Procer. She has seemingly kept to that principle, given how she is arranging to throw away her rulership of Procer to take the Warden of the West mantle.

She still seems to have the same general plan for action as the Warden of the West, however. Consolidate power in the hands of a single person, because she believes she knows better than everyone else.

And that will have disastrous consequences down the line. As people have said against Hanno’s side (and rightfully), just because Cordelia, or Hanno is a great Warden of the West using their methodology, that does not mean their successor, or successor’s successor on down the line will always be so.

And personally, I think setting a precedent that the Warden of the West is a RULER of Named rather than a LEADER of Named is going to be by far the more disastrous in the long run of the two.

This is, in my eyes, the entire clash between Hanno’s and Cordelia’s ideologies. Rulership vs leadership, iron fist vs guiding hand. Neither is a perfect truth, applicable to all circumstances.

[Forum Explorer]

Yeah, for anyone who was worried Cordelia's style wouldn't be reamed out by the serial as well, this chapter disproves that. My thoughts from the thread:

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Cordelia is a terrible leader, in part because she has never LED. She has the same noble arrogance as all of the other nobility around her, she’s just too blind to see it. This chapter makes it pretty clear that she sees everyone else around her as incompetent, despite being completely out of her depth. Say what you will about Catherine’s ego, at least when she talks **** (or thinks it) she knows how to roll with the hit. Cordelia doesn’t.

This chapter cinched it for me. Cordelia does not wish to be a leader, and never has. That’s Hanno’s bag, as imperfect as he is at it.

What she wishes to be, and has always wished to be is exactly what everyone in Procer has feared she would become: a Tyrant. She wants an iron-fisted grip over everything the light touches. She’s made great strides on making that come true for the people of Procer, all for their “greater good”. Perhaps justifiably.

Now she wishes to reach further and ensnare the Heroes as well, so she can have her own obedient army of superhumans that exist only for the will of the State.

Worse, this chapter proves that Cordelia is incredibly shortsighted. I’ve reamed out the Pilgrim for his massacre of those innocent villagers many a time, but summarily executing the man was something she wished to do? With no thought whatsoever save for the POLITICAL ramifications of doing so, like losing one of the most powerful Named in the world while they’re in the middle of a direct conflict with what was, to her, a deranged psychopath with godlike powers.

She has time and time again proven that thought with her actions as well. Taking short term gains for long term drawbacks. Some justified (such as in the war against the Dead King), and many not. She’s been trying to consolidate all the power of Procer into her own hands since before she took office, and I don’t think once she’s stopped to consider the ramifications of turning Procer from a flawed, corrupt oligarchy into a flawed, and potentially even MORE corrupt in the future dictatorship.

[After some confusion about what I meant by "Cordelia has never led":]

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As I said (maybe not clearly enough?), Cordelia does not lead. She rules. There’s a stark difference between the two things, even if the concepts are sometimes used interchangeably.

She gives orders and expects to be obeyed. She would prefer not to negotiate with anyone. She does not set any good example for her people to follow, she does not inspire. She does not LEAD in either figurative or literal senses of the word. Her people fight her tooth and claw at every turn because she lacks their respect. The nobles scheme against her and the common folk find her out of touch. As we see here, the same applies to the Named she would rule over.

Certainly, she rejected the power of the Warden of the West at one point. Not because she did not want to bring Procer under her thumb, but because she believed a Named should not rule Procer. She has seemingly kept to that principle, given how she is arranging to throw away her rulership of Procer to take the Warden of the West mantle.

She still seems to have the same general plan for action as the Warden of the West, however. Consolidate power in the hands of a single person, because she believes she knows better than everyone else.

And that will have disastrous consequences down the line. As people have said against Hanno’s side (and rightfully), just because Cordelia, or Hanno is a great Warden of the West using their methodology, that does not mean their successor, or successor’s successor on down the line will always be so.

And personally, I think setting a precedent that the Warden of the West is a RULER of Named rather than a LEADER of Named is going to be by far the more disastrous in the long run of the two.

This is, in my eyes, the entire clash between Hanno’s and Cordelia’s ideologies. Rulership vs leadership, iron fist vs guiding hand. Neither is a perfect truth, applicable to all circumstances.

I never got the impression that Cordelia wants to be a tyrant. She very much plays by the rules of Procer and how it's political system works. She's just very good at it and isn't just going to let her rivals undermine her. But she doesn't aim to wipe out all the other Princes or make it so the First Prince has absolute power. Her deals, tricks, and collateral all would go away when she does. But I feel that's what she feels what the role of the First Prince is, someone who rules Procer.

Also I feel like you misrepresent her desire via the Grey Pilgrim. She hates how he could wipe a village off the map without any consequence whatsoever. She couldn't even verbally condemn the action and just had to swallow the loss of that village. I'm pretty sure that if it did come to a trial or what not, she would have basically let the Grey Pilgrim off, more or less.

I'll agree that she rules vs leads though. She's only got a few hard core partisans who stand by her no matter what. And has basically spent the whole war in the capital giving orders. Now yeah, in large part she had to. But it isn't very inspiring or in tune with how heroes behave.

[Dragonus45]

I never got the impression that Cordelia wants to be a tyrant. She very much plays by the rules of Procer and how it's political system works. She's just very good at it and isn't just going to let her rivals undermine her. But she doesn't aim to wipe out all the other Princes or make it so the First Prince has absolute power. Her deals, tricks, and collateral all would go away when she does. But I feel that's what she feels what the role of the First Prince is, someone who rules Procer.

Also I feel like you misrepresent her desire via the Grey Pilgrim. She hates how he could wipe a village off the map without any consequence whatsoever. She couldn't even verbally condemn the action and just had to swallow the loss of that village. I'm pretty sure that if it did come to a trial or what not, she would have basically let the Grey Pilgrim off, more or less.

I'll agree that she rules vs leads though. She's only got a few hard core partisans who stand by her no matter what. And has basically spent the whole war in the capital giving orders. Now yeah, in large part she had to. But it isn't very inspiring or in tune with how heroes behave.

I do remember there being a lot of talk in various talky chapters about how she never really stops consolidating power to herself like ever.

[Rynjin]

In the interest of fairness, Cordelia technically never stops consolidating power to the role of First Prince, and I don't think her intention is to be supreme ruler herself; she's taking strides to abdicate currently, after all.

But she does seem to believe that Procer should be an absolute monarchy in all but name, and has grabbed more and more power over time and set precedent for the First Prince to retain wartime powers even in peace.

[Thomas Cardew]

I will say that Champion naming the heron after her dead friend was a perfect little moment. The sort of thing I really enjoy about this story.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Spoiler: Occidental IV

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So if I'm understanding this right, Cordellia's flaws as Warden are twofold:

First, she hates heroes. She doesn't trust them, she doesn't want to be one, and not only is this a really bad attitude for a Warden to have towards her subjects it's actively detrimental to Cordellia because it leads to her not asking for help from heroes.

Second, right now she's all talk and no action. When faced with an impossible task, she doesn't find a way to succeed against the odds, she finds a way to compromise. While arguably a good trait, this earns her no points with Heroes. But more importantly, now that the stakes allow no compromise (both in the competition for the Role of Warden and in the war against the Dead King), she needs to play against type and actually win... or admit that she shares the trait she hates most in Heroes: the assumption that just because she thinks she's right, things (i.e., the competition) will turn out in her favor, and she need not consider alternatives/the other sides/possible methods beyond that. TL;DR Cordellia needs to put her money where her mouth is to convince other Heroes and win the Role.

[lord_khaine]

One thing i will not blame Cordelia for, is wanting to consolidate power in the hands of her office.
Not when she rose to power on the back of a wasteful civil war.
Im quite certain 95% of her people support her in, that the world would be a LOT better,
If their Prince wasnt able to squabble over land though armed forces, with whoever shares his border.

Besides that there is also the issue of the south failing to support the north, in fending off border threats like the chain.

[Rynjin]

There are often good sounding justifications and reasons for tyranny, yes.

[Forum Explorer]

There are often good sounding justifications and reasons for tyranny, yes.

It's a feudal system. One way or the other there is going to be a fair bit of tyranny.

Anyways, this one rang a lot more true than the Hanno's verbal beatdown. And kinda raises the question of why Cordelia is a claimant at all.

[The Glyphstone]

One thing I picked up in the middle of this one:

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Cordelia has figured out that this whole thing is actually Cat taking a swing at the Bard, but what is she trying to accomplish by doing it this way? It's only Cat's blind speculation that Bard's interference is responsible for the feud between the claimants for Warden.