A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

[Eurus]

Someone remind me again how anything as psychotic as the Dominion of Levant is a Good nation.

They're Good because they hate villains, I guess.

I would be curious as to how many of them would survive the ealamal, actually...

[Forum Explorer]

Someone remind me again how anything as psychotic as the Dominion of Levant is a Good nation.

Procer is also a 'good' nation, and they've pretty much tried to conquer every other nation on the continent at one point or another. So I think being good is more about rejecting Below and their tools than being Good in the sense of modern morality.

[The Glyphstone]

I get the impression they're Chaotic more than anything, at least if you map on a two-axis grid instead of PGtE's single axis.

Procer is also a 'good' nation, and they've pretty much tried to conquer every other nation on the continent at one point or another. So I think being good is more about rejecting Below and their tools than being Good in the sense of modern morality.

I think it's more the inverse, in a way. Being Evil is about rejecting Above and how it decrees a place and role for everyone.

[Dragonus45]

I think it's more the inverse, in a way. Being Evil is about rejecting Above and how it decrees a place and role for everyone.

If Good and Evil split evenly like that I would agree but Tariq's relationship with his choir and Hune's talk about Orge religion being so deterministic makes me think it isn't remotely that simple as good and evil being 100% on opposite sides of the bet. On the subject of absolutes, I dislike condemning an entire society which we have seen has it's fair share of decent and heroic individuals because a few people in charge are short sighed and desire power more then they have common sense.

[Forum Explorer]

I think it's more the inverse, in a way. Being Evil is about rejecting Above and how it decrees a place and role for everyone.

I'd disagree with that. The Gods Below might encourage their followers to do whatever they want, but their followers tend to be Tyrants and Evil Overlords. Villains are perfectly fine with tyranny and forcing people into place. They just don't put any justifications on it. Similarly they don't so much reject Above so much as they don't view Above as anything special. Like Akua was fully willing to use the dead angel for whatever her initial evil plan was. But she didn't really treat it with contempt or anything. It was basically the same as a Demon to her, just another tool to be used.

[The Glyphstone]

I'd disagree with that. The Gods Below might encourage their followers to do whatever they want, but their followers tend to be Tyrants and Evil Overlords. Villains are perfectly fine with tyranny and forcing people into place. They just don't put any justifications on it. Similarly they don't so much reject Above so much as they don't view Above as anything special. Like Akua was fully willing to use the dead angel for whatever her initial evil plan was. But she didn't really treat it with contempt or anything. It was basically the same as a Demon to her, just another tool to be used.

Thats not really where I was going - not rejecting the tools of Above, but its philosophy. Above sets many rules - you can do this, you can't do that; this is acceptable, this is not. In contrast, Below seems to have one single rule- do whatever you want unless someone stronger can stop you. And yeah, that sort of philosophy is a natural draw to tyrants because it creates a worldview that enables them. So its a self selecting filter in a way; people comfortable with the status quo of Above aren't going to turn villain in the first place.

[Thomas Cardew]

Don't really feel figuring out actual odds, but I have a feeling we're working towards the Barrow Sword saving the lordling's lives form the Brigand's backstab. Combined with him killing a scourge to get his title, and he ends up as part of a new family head to a more formalized oligarchy ruling the Levant.

[Forum Explorer]

Thats not really where I was going - not rejecting the tools of Above, but its philosophy. Above sets many rules - you can do this, you can't do that; this is acceptable, this is not. In contrast, Below seems to have one single rule- do whatever you want unless someone stronger can stop you. And yeah, that sort of philosophy is a natural draw to tyrants because it creates a worldview that enables them. So its a self selecting filter in a way; people comfortable with the status quo of Above aren't going to turn villain in the first place.

I don't think I agree. We've got examples on both sides of Named who don't really consider the philosophy of their actions at all. As well as people who go against the grain of what you are saying. The Barrow Sword seems to be very law and orderly for example.

[Rydiro]

I don't think I agree. We've got examples on both sides of Named who don't really consider the philosophy of their actions at all. As well as people who go against the grain of what you are saying. The Barrow Sword seems to be very law and orderly for example.

Good Nations have leading moral principles, which they worship in conjunction with the gods above. In the case of Levante, Honor and Blood. The rulers follow those principles and derive their 'right to rule' from them. Levante: you are honorable and related by blood to some Chosen.
At least thats my take.
Procer is mostly good, cause it has a church.
To be honest, Good nations can be pretty horrible. And Evil places (Akuas hometown) relatively nice.
The Barrow Sword can be disciplined when he gains something, but he also has no limits on the deals he would take. Or any other morals in his way to make it to the top of Levante.

[lord_khaine]

Wasnt Akua's hometown mostly nice due to being located in the absolute middle of nowhere?
And even then it would still be a place where blood magic sacrifices are a relatively common thing.
At least if they do any farming.

[3SecondCultist]

Woof.

Spoiler: 55: Hail

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Losing roughly 10% of your entire soldiery in one day? And not even making a breach into Keter? Those are some really rough numbers there, Cat.

The GA isn't getting anywhere knocking on Neshamah's door like this. They are going to need some story-fu to get into the most fortified city on the continent.

Any guesses how Cat & co. are going to pull this one off?

[Dragonus45]

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That is a steep ****ing cost, plus we learn again that flying towers and fortresses never work. Here is hoping some more providence start's coming their way soon.

[Eurus]

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The Blessed Artificer's wall-breaching artifact is still available, iirc... if they can get close enough to use it, anyway.

[lord_khaine]

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It did have some fairly hilarious moments.
Such as "wait they did actually fired the Mirror Knight at it?"
Kinda hilarious how that has become a meme.

Also. Well yeah they do need some fairly serious cheese to break into Keter.
Having a mile deep moat is honestly kinda BS. So in turn you do need something like flying siege towers.
Well or a massive earthquake. But the collatoral is likely to high.

[Tvtyrant]

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They also have the ability to smite the landscape back to its original shape AFAIK. If they aren't rule bound they can certainly make the giant smite ritual to refill the moat right?

[Dragonus45]

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They also have the ability to smite the landscape back to its original shape AFAIK. If they aren't rule bound they can certainly make the giant smite ritual to refill the moat right?

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The Blessed Artificer's wall-breaching artifact is still available, iirc... if they can get close enough to use it, anyway.

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No, the real trick is that these heroic power plays are still limited by the trappings of the story which means they lose effectiveness if not properly deployed. Preferably after the great villain has tipped his hand. We saw the absolute ****ing mockery made of Tariq's sacrifice when he went first after all.

[lord_khaine]

Im quite certain the moat has been dug by regular shovels. So i dont think the smite ritual will do much.

As for Tariq's sacrifice. Im not quite certain when it was made a mockery off?
Last time it was quite effective. Wrecking a Crab and allowing for a safe retreat.

[Forum Explorer]

Im quite certain the moat has been dug by regular shovels. So i dont think the smite ritual will do much.

As for Tariq's sacrifice. Im not quite certain when it was made a mockery off?
Last time it was quite effective. Wrecking a Crab and allowing for a safe retreat.

It really wasn't. Yeah, it wrecked the crab. But it let DK go all out, opening dozens of hellgates, blighting the land around said hellgates, and pulling out some nastier tricks. Not to mention weakening the Ways.

Tariq's sacrifice brought them from a desperate situation, but they might be able to win, to 'no, we are flat out losing, and we need to get Praes help, just so we can throw ourselves into a desperate battle where we need to kill DK before he wipes out the entire nation.'

[Dragonus45]

Im quite certain the moat has been dug by regular shovels. So i dont think the smite ritual will do much.

As for Tariq's sacrifice. Im not quite certain when it was made a mockery off?
Last time it was quite effective. Wrecking a Crab and allowing for a safe retreat.

And the next chapter the dead king opened numerous hellgates literally tuned to be so inefficient as to double as nukes that would blight an entire region such that it may never fully recover and ruined the offer of the Giants to ward their lands by forcing them to also sacrifice themselves to merely delay the move and put them on a timer at which the Dead King just wins.

[lord_khaine]

It really wasn't. Yeah, it wrecked the crab. But it let DK go all out, opening dozens of hellgates, blighting the land around said hellgates, and pulling out some nastier tricks. Not to mention weakening the Ways.

Cat directly states he saved the entire continent with his sacrifice.
He didnt do it for fun.

Spoiler: Chapter 78

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Much as I itched to blame Tariq for what I’d lost tonight, it would have rung hollow to try it when he’d died trying to save all of Calernia.

And he had, Gods forgive me. If we’d simply evacuated, fled back to our defensive lines, then the simple amount of corpses swelling Neshamah’s ranks would have been enough to overwhelm us to the south after we retreated there to lick our wounds. And once the Dead King pierced into Procer, got his hands on cities and teeming masses of refugees, then it was all over. The Peregrine had averted that doom for us all, and I held that truth close as I watched the pieces of a dead star rain own on Creation.

But yeah. Unfortunately it in turn did allow Nehezemar to escelate the conflict.
Though that was when the alternative were a defeat.

[Dragonus45]

Cat directly states he saved the entire continent with his sacrifice.
He didnt do it for fun.

Spoiler: Chapter 78

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Much as I itched to blame Tariq for what I’d lost tonight, it would have rung hollow to try it when he’d died trying to save all of Calernia.

And he had, Gods forgive me. If we’d simply evacuated, fled back to our defensive lines, then the simple amount of corpses swelling Neshamah’s ranks would have been enough to overwhelm us to the south after we retreated there to lick our wounds. And once the Dead King pierced into Procer, got his hands on cities and teeming masses of refugees, then it was all over. The Peregrine had averted that doom for us all, and I held that truth close as I watched the pieces of a dead star rain own on Creation.

But yeah. Unfortunately it in turn did allow Nehezemar to escelate the conflict.
Though that was when the alternative were a defeat.

Understand, I am not blaming him. Just saying that the way things out really undercut the whole emotion of the thing. And sort of the whole book and fight leading up to it.

[Thomas Cardew]

Understand, I am not blaming him. Just saying that the way things out really undercut the whole emotion of the thing. And sort of the whole book and fight leading up to it.

So I felt the same way when I read Cat's explanation. Then I had a realization/head canon that made me feel a little bit better about it: Tariq knew through Mercy this would happen and why dropping the star cost so much. He'd already been the heroic sacrifice, so the narrative demanded more than just his life. He knew the consequences would be 'ruinous', not just on his family/line but on his legacy. His peaceful realm of rest shattered and even his final sacrifice twisted to allow the Dead King freedom to touch the world. And he would always make that choice because it would lessen suffering.

[Forum Explorer]

Cat directly states he saved the entire continent with his sacrifice.
He didnt do it for fun.

Spoiler: Chapter 78

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Much as I itched to blame Tariq for what I’d lost tonight, it would have rung hollow to try it when he’d died trying to save all of Calernia.

And he had, Gods forgive me. If we’d simply evacuated, fled back to our defensive lines, then the simple amount of corpses swelling Neshamah’s ranks would have been enough to overwhelm us to the south after we retreated there to lick our wounds. And once the Dead King pierced into Procer, got his hands on cities and teeming masses of refugees, then it was all over. The Peregrine had averted that doom for us all, and I held that truth close as I watched the pieces of a dead star rain own on Creation.

But yeah. Unfortunately it in turn did allow Nehezemar to escelate the conflict.
Though that was when the alternative were a defeat.

That quote was before he opened the Hellgates. The situation would have been similarly bad, but maybe they could've pulled off a sacrifice of some kind to at least destroy the corpses to deny the DK the increase in his numbers. Ultimately, Tariq's sacrifice let the DK go for a winning play that required yet another sacrifice to buy time.

I can't, and don't, blame Tariq for that. But his sacrifice was very much undercut by what happened immediately afterwards.

[lord_khaine]

That quote was before he opened the Hellgates. The situation would have been similarly bad, but maybe they could've pulled off a sacrifice of some kind to at least destroy the corpses to deny the DK the increase in his numbers. Ultimately, Tariq's sacrifice let the DK go for a winning play that required yet another sacrifice to buy time.

I can't, and don't, blame Tariq for that. But his sacrifice was very much undercut by what happened immediately afterwards.

Yes... thats the whole point im making. The most well informered person on the whole situation directly states they had lost without the sacrifice.
The Dead King had won. Cat explains that. Tariq cheated him out of that victory. But the price was a power boost to the Dead King.

Basically the situation was A) Dead King Wins or B) Dead King dont win but gets to open a handful of Hell Gates.
So i cant see how there is any lessening in Tariq's sacrifice. He saved the entire continent. Gave it a second chance to get its stuff together.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He'd already been the heroic sacrifice, so the narrative demanded more than just his life.

To be clear: I too understand this to be canon; I am not about to suggest Thomas's reading of it is incorrect. But isn't this explanation of why the narrative allowed DK got to escalate nonsense? Tariq didn't "merely" perform a second heroic sacrifice that therefore somehow didn't count as much as the first. He sacrificed his entire family - a whole bloodline ceased to exist. And yet this didn't "count" as a proper sacrifice? I've headcanon-ed that the issue is the absolutely criminal lack of consent, but the book has been mute about that, hasn't it?

GW

[Forum Explorer]

Yes... thats the whole point im making. The most well informered person on the whole situation directly states they had lost without the sacrifice.
The Dead King had won. Cat explains that. Tariq cheated him out of that victory. But the price was a power boost to the Dead King.

Basically the situation was A) Dead King Wins or B) Dead King dont win but gets to open a handful of Hell Gates.
So i cant see how there is any lessening in Tariq's sacrifice. He saved the entire continent. Gave it a second chance to get its stuff together.

They would be in a bad situation for sure. But Tariq's sacrifice allowed the Dead King to put them into an equally bad situation with the Greater Breaches. If those had opened, the Dead King would've immediately won. It took a further sacrifice that Cat didn't know was even possible to buy them time. Perhaps the Gigantes could've pull off a different sort of Deus Ex Machina to seal all the undead into the city, or prevent the corpses from being raised. It makes as much sense as them being able to temporarily seal Greater Breaches.

EDIT: That's why Tariq's sacrifice was undercut. It's not like his sacrifice was rendered completely moot. It did stop the Dead King from winning in one way. But considering it then took yet another sacrifice to make sure the Dead King didn't win a different way, it makes Tariq's sacrifice feel less effective.

[Thomas Cardew]

To be clear: I too understand this to be canon; I am not about to suggest Thomas's reading of it is incorrect. But isn't this explanation of why the narrative allowed DK got to escalate nonsense? Tariq didn't "merely" perform a second heroic sacrifice that therefore somehow didn't count as much as the first. He sacrificed his entire family - a whole bloodline ceased to exist. And yet this didn't "count" as a proper sacrifice? I've headcanon-ed that the issue is the absolutely criminal lack of consent, but the book has been mute about that, hasn't it?

GW

Part of my point was that the narrative was raising the cost of the sacrifice. In a version where Tariq hadn't performed a heroic final sacrifice at the Graveyard, the cost would have been less. Maybe it wouldn't have burned out Isbilli line. Maybe he would have been able to Shine bright enough without requiring Mercy's aid. Pouring his life into one final searing light but without requiring the Angelic intervention to open the door for the DK. Or some other possibility. Instead, the rules of the universe required an exponentially greater sacrifice. Maybe there's some analogous to how Praesi rituals require more and more sacrifices to achieve lesser and lesser effects.

[Eurus]

To be clear: I too understand this to be canon; I am not about to suggest Thomas's reading of it is incorrect. But isn't this explanation of why the narrative allowed DK got to escalate nonsense? Tariq didn't "merely" perform a second heroic sacrifice that therefore somehow didn't count as much as the first. He sacrificed his entire family - a whole bloodline ceased to exist. And yet this didn't "count" as a proper sacrifice? I've headcanon-ed that the issue is the absolutely criminal lack of consent, but the book has been mute about that, hasn't it?

GW

I think the problem is that the first heroic sacrifice, creating and guarding the twilight ways, was Cat trying to be clever and cheating it. Tariq sacrificed himself, then got resurrected anyway. She speculates that the powers-that-be would have probably looked the other way on that one, but it was always a bit of a stretch to have Tariq's sacrifice protecting Twilight from interference while he's clearly not dead. Tariq's second sacrifice just made the illusion too flimsy to maintain.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler: Brink

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So that just happened. How much authority/power does the Herald actually have, that he could just up and do something like that? Do we even know what his office officially means in Dwarfland?

And does anyone remember what chapter we first met the Herald and Seeker? I try to fix mental images of the characters in a scene but I can't remember what PGtE Dwarves look like in variation from Generic Fantasy Dwarf #1.

[MammonAzrael]

My statement that I had no more attention to dole out had not been theatrics: the dwarves were now close enough I could make out the individual steps. They did not come from deeper inside the cavern. The company of a hundred that spread out in front of the trap had been posted near the outer wall, to the left of the tunnel’s exit. Regulars again, I noted, and since now the dance had come to end I finally spared a moment to study dwarvenkind from up close. I’d pictured them as short, stocky humans but evidently that’d been a failure of imagination. There were basic similarities: eyes, nose, brow, lips. But they were the same more in principle than practice. Their skin was so rough and craggy, enough it looked more like some beast’s rough hide. The old tale that dwarves were born when a dwarf ate stones for a year and then spat out a baby fully-formed came to mind. Their eyes were almost too large for those thick faces, with coloured sclera and no irises. Owl-like, I thought, though they had eyelashes. Their strands of hair were visibly larger and thicker than a human’s, their noses flat and broad. The tallest of the lot stood at five feet, though they were much broader of shoulder than any race I’d come across save orcs. The dwarves spread out facing us, shields and hammers at the ready.

There is a variety of descriptions throughout the chapter, including the Herald of the Deeps and Balasi:

Not long after the rows of soldiers parted for a pair of dwarves, which seemed promising to me. The first was the tallest dwarf I’d seen so far, and the first without any armour. He wore cloth, dyed a green so dark it was nearly black, though I didn’t recognize the style or the cut. It was wrapped and knotted in layers over layers, heavy enough it might actually slow an arrow. His beard was dyed as well, in the same colour, and his eyes matched. The hair was black, though, long and braided. The staff in his hand was crooked thing of wood with trinkets of some strange metal hanging off the end, softly chiming as he walked. The other was one of those Archer had called deed-seekers, and his chest was so thickly covered in skulls the armour could not be seen beneath. Some of those were human, I noted, but most too large for that. I even glimpsed dragonbone among the multitude, though that struck me as the result of grave robbing rather than fighting. There were few dragons left on Calernia, and the death of one would have resounded across the continent. Blonde of beard and hair, his face was covered with either an exceedingly thick black tattoo or pristine face paint. The shape was a rat’s head and fangs, though the horns sprouting out made it clear it was not just any ratling. The two of them came to stand before the dais, though they did not touch it, and the deed-seeker cleared his throat.