A Practical Guide to Evil III: A Series of Unfortunate Peace Treaties

[uncool]

So...is it just me, or did Akua just give Jim the Praesi equivalent of a pep talk?

[Mith]

So...is it just me, or did Akua just give Jim the Praesi equivalent of a pep talk?

A self projected pep talk too. So it's not only Something to help Nim get back to her feet and focus, but also providing an example at where to start (look both to Amadeus' success in building legions, and Akua unintentional rise in popularity.)

[lord_khaine]

Well likely a bit of both?
Some stuff was very clearly aimed at the Black Knight.
While some twisted around in the air like a boomerang and smacked her in the back of the head.

[Mith]

Well likely a bit of both?
Some stuff was very clearly aimed at the Black Knight.
While some twisted around in the air like a boomerang and smacked her in the back of the head.

That's fair. Overall, it's a good scene.

That entire Akua section was gold.

And it's going to be interesting to see Cat's reaction when she reaches Ater and sees what Akua has become.

[HolyDraconus]

That's fair. Overall, it's a good scene.

That entire Akua section was gold.

And it's going to be interesting to see Cat's reaction when she reaches Ater and sees what Akua has become.

But isn’t this more or less what Cat said would happen anyway? And has anyone noticed that this would be the second time Cat spoke of the future in such a definite term that it happens? And is Cat gonna get downgraded to Warden instead of whatever her name is?

[InvisibleBison]

And is Cat gonna get downgraded to Warden instead of whatever her name is?

That seems to be what the Bard thinks is going to happen, so I'm confident that it won't be what actually happens.

[Mith]

That seems to be what the Bard thinks is going to happen, so I'm confident that it won't be what actually happens.

My guess is that Akua as a 'wildcard' will grab the Eastern Name that they are planning to shove on Cat.

[McNum]

My guess is that Akua as a 'wildcard' will grab the Eastern Name that they are planning to shove on Cat.

Considering they started out contesting the Squire Name, it would be interesting if Akua ends up taking a Name for Cat, so Cat can become what she's really aiming for. Fate loves its symmetry in this world, no?

[Noldo]

Considering they started out contesting the Squire Name, it would be interesting if Akua ends up taking a Name for Cat, so Cat can become what she's really aiming for. Fate loves its symmetry in this world, no?

In a sense Hakram’s accession to a new name could be seen as slight foreshadowing/explaining as it showed to us that a claimant can hijack a name even if another claimant is further away along the process. So Akua snatching the Warden of the East (with Above’s support as heroic name?) that has been prepared for Cat to assume would not come without any prior hints that this could be possible.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah it is looking like the linked names built for Cordelia and Catherine are going to end up taken up by Akua and Hanno, who are sharing a redemption story about being part of the world instead of being Chosen above it.

[HolyDraconus]

Yeah it is looking like the linked names built for Cordelia and Catherine are going to end up taken up by Akua and Hanno, who are sharing a redemption story about being part of the world instead of being Chosen above it.

After reading the new chapter 22, I don’t think Cat’s Name is linked. In that sense. At all. It’s monstrous. Absolutely monstrous. But when I think about it, it makes sense. Her target is the Dead King. The dood is the closest walking personification of Evil Calernia has ever seen. He’s seen and done more than everyone save the Bard. So she’s going to need a powerful Name to put a permanent dent in him.

[lord_khaine]

Well. I in turn dont think its that monstrous. Just.. specialized.
In the same way that when it came to cutting something, the saint of swords had no equal.

Cats then turning specialized in that her name grants her authorithy. Over villains mostly.
And those she rule by right.

[Tvtyrant]

After reading the new chapter 22, I don’t think Cat’s Name is linked. In that sense. At all. It’s monstrous. Absolutely monstrous. But when I think about it, it makes sense. Her target is the Dead King. The dood is the closest walking personification of Evil Calernia has ever seen. He’s seen and done more than everyone save the Bard. So she’s going to need a powerful Name to put a permanent dent in him.

Her actual Name isn't, I think the one Bard is trying to make for her is. Bard tried to make Cordelia the Warden of the West, which naturally makes a Warden of the East. She also tried to push Cat into being her own rival rather than the King of the Deads.

The KotD rules over undead Named, a layer of Hell, and endless armies. If Cat is becoming anything linked it is King of the Living.

[Rydiro]

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... in which Cat again refuses to listen to a diplomatic offer to the end. And then wonders why she misses stuff. Its honestly a really bad habit not even listening to the concessions the other side is willing to make.

Warden of the East is a new Name afaik. There never was one before. Wardens of the West have been there for longer.

[HolyDraconus]

Her actual Name isn't, I think the one Bard is trying to make for her is. Bard tried to make Cordelia the Warden of the West, which naturally makes a Warden of the East. She also tried to push Cat into being her own rival rather than the King of the Deads.

The KotD rules over undead Named, a layer of Hell, and endless armies. If Cat is becoming anything linked it is King of the Living.

That would require for her to LIVE though. And last I checked, she's batting for Below, who is notorious for dying in excruciating fashion. Like, her ideal for Names need something to endure, cause its going to fall as soon as the old guard passes, either through old age or infighting. Having one of the old guard around through the ages a la Dead King WOULD keep it going. But is she going to give that task to DK? Cause unless her new Name comes with it some bs powers on the scope of the Intercessor, once she's down she's out. Akua has a body so making her an unbodied aspect of it as eternity for redemption is out too. And her ultimate plan for the DK is to cobble him cause she can't outright destroy him permanently.

So no. I think her Name is clearly showing that its a Ruler over Named, especially those tied to Below, but I don't think it will tie in to her living. I'm starting to think she doesn't have to be alive anymore for it, kinda like when she had Winter, and wasn't really "alive".

[Fable Wright]

New chapter ...

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... in which Cat again refuses to listen to a diplomatic offer to the end. And then wonders why she misses stuff. Its honestly a really bad habit not even listening to the concessions the other side is willing to make.

Warden of the East is a new Name afaik. There never was one before. Wardens of the West have been there for longer.

Spoiler

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Reasons to not listen to the full proposal: Namelore and her own diplomatic weaknesses.

She is riding a story as an unstoppable force come to tear down the tower. Getting bogged down in negotiations is poison to this story.

More than that, her opponent is the Bard. Getting an offer that gives her what she wants is actually poison. She needs surrender to be on her terms, or she'll be laid low by the story.

If she doesn't fight her way through the unbridled madness of all of Ater's defenses turned loose, she's guaranteed to be the warden of the east, and not Warden of the East.

Does this end in extremely undiplomatic behavior that results in conflict escalation over mutually beneficial resolution? Yes. There is a reason Cat wants an end to Named rulers, including herself.

And yes, Warden of the East is a new name—the scope of it is uncertain.

[lord_khaine]

Someone refresh my memory?
What figurative knives are Cat talking about?

[tyckspoon]

Someone refresh my memory?
What figurative knives are Cat talking about?

hmm. There was a lot going on there, but the main threads would be either story-based influence/control (the Prince's Graveyard was one of the instances where the controlling story was one Cat chose and largely directed, even if the specific details had a hefty dose of the usual chaos) or knowing the major players and their personalities and desires well enough to manipulate all the non-Named that would be less subject to Story influences into going along with what she wanted. Since the update explicitly says that she got blindsided going into this meeting and felt that she surrendered some points without even knowing what the game was, it's probably the second thing - I would guess she's going to go talk to Scribe and Vivienne and find out as much as possible about the specific political situation, because it's clearly less obvious than what she had assumed (there isn't supposed to be anybody relevant who still wants Malicia to be in charge of the Tower, for one.)

[Forum Explorer]

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... in which Cat again refuses to listen to a diplomatic offer to the end. And then wonders why she misses stuff. Its honestly a really bad habit not even listening to the concessions the other side is willing to make.

Warden of the East is a new Name afaik. There never was one before. Wardens of the West have been there for longer.

There's never been a Warden of the West. That's just a title the First Prince holds. But it's never been a Name before now, ASAIK

[Mith]

hmm. There was a lot going on there, but the main threads would be either story-based influence/control (the Prince's Graveyard was one of the instances where the controlling story was one Cat chose and largely directed, even if the specific details had a hefty dose of the usual chaos) or knowing the major players and their personalities and desires well enough to manipulate all the non-Named that would be less subject to Story influences into going along with what she wanted. Since the update explicitly says that she got blindsided going into this meeting and felt that she surrendered some points without even knowing what the game was, it's probably the second thing - I would guess she's going to go talk to Scribe and Vivienne and find out as much as possible about the specific political situation, because it's clearly less obvious than what she had assumed (there isn't supposed to be anybody relevant who still wants Malicia to be in charge of the Tower, for one.)

Also, Cat focusing on the politics is the wrong move here. She should abdicate as Queen of Callow and focus on the narrative side of this conflict.

Ironically, this would be Cat stepping closer to Hanno in Book 6, as she would only be focused on the Villains. and not confined by political borders.

I suspect that she won't make that connection prior to talking to Hakram, since he made the opposite choice here.

[Forum Explorer]

Also, Cat focusing on the politics is the wrong move here. She should abdicate as Queen of Callow and focus on the narrative side of this conflict.

Ironically, this would be Cat stepping closer to Hanno in Book 6, as she would only be focused on the Villains. and not confined by political borders.

I suspect that she won't make that connection prior to talking to Hakram, since he made the opposite choice here.

It's the bait the Wandering Bard talked about. That's the mistake Cat made in this chapter, that she can't quite put her finger on.

[Fable Wright]

Also, Cat focusing on the politics is the wrong move here. She should abdicate as Queen of Callow and focus on the narrative side of this conflict.

Ironically, this would be Cat stepping closer to Hanno in Book 6, as she would only be focused on the Villains. and not confined by political borders.

I suspect that she won't make that connection prior to talking to Hakram, since he made the opposite choice here.

Abdicating as Queen of Callow would be... bad, for Story reasons.

Callow invading Praes after Praes screws up is so deeply baked into Praesi culture that Hakram's tower-raising game that he made as a child in the Orcish steppe had one of the endings be "and Callow comes to kill everyone". Abdicating, surrendering her right to rule, means she's no longer synonymous with Callow, and suddenly cuts that narrative wind out from under her.

And that's not all. When it comes to rulers, Callow has stories. Conquering kings and queens of dynasties. Legends about what the first of a dynasty does can be especially powerful, considering that one of them is about a Crusade to permanently destroy an Evil Kingdom. Which she needs to pull off twice. Not to mention that her position as Queen of Callow is part of what gives Callow the diplomatic leverage it has over the League, and allows them to get what they need from the Dwarves. Additionally, if she's not Queen of Callow, there's problems when it comes to Vivienne's leadership of Callow. Either Catherine has authority over Vivienne, crippling the authority and diplomatic footing of Vivienne's new dynasty from the start, or Catherine doesn't have that authority, and shoots her coming Name in the foot.

Abandoning politics is not the solution. Getting the Dread Tyrant of Praes to offer her concede to her full access to the madness of the Tower's vaults is what she needs, story-wise and logistically, for the war. It's the question of whether it's hers by intrinsic authority, or by vassalage. That's where uncertainty lies, I think, and that's the Bard's play here.

[Mith]

Abdicating as Queen of Callow would be... bad, for Story reasons.

Callow invading Praes after Praes screws up is so deeply baked into Praesi culture that Hakram's tower-raising game that he made as a child in the Orcish steppe had one of the endings be "and Callow comes to kill everyone". Abdicating, surrendering her right to rule, means she's no longer synonymous with Callow, and suddenly cuts that narrative wind out from under her.

And that's not all. When it comes to rulers, Callow has stories. Conquering kings and queens of dynasties. Legends about what the first of a dynasty does can be especially powerful, considering that one of them is about a Crusade to permanently destroy an Evil Kingdom. Which she needs to pull off twice. Not to mention that her position as Queen of Callow is part of what gives Callow the diplomatic leverage it has over the League, and allows them to get what they need from the Dwarves. Additionally, if she's not Queen of Callow, there's problems when it comes to Vivienne's leadership of Callow. Either Catherine has authority over Vivienne, crippling the authority and diplomatic footing of Vivienne's new dynasty from the start, or Catherine doesn't have that authority, and shoots her coming Name in the foot.

Abandoning politics is not the solution. Getting the Dread Tyrant of Praes to offer her concede to her full access to the madness of the Tower's vaults is what she needs, story-wise and logistically, for the war. It's the question of whether it's hers by intrinsic authority, or by vassalage. That's where uncertainty lies, I think, and that's the Bard's play here.

Cat's authority is based on villains, not all Named, so she won't always have authority over Vivienne, unless she becomes someone in charge of just the East. Right now her influence is 'Everywhere except Keter and Procer, and she has a solid connection to Procer'.

She needs to keep politics in mind, but having Vivienne take on the political side (since she will be one of the political players in the East in the future) while she focuses on the Named dynamics of the conflict (one of the core dynamics of the Accords) is a a way to keep the focus on both sides while maintaining authority. Cat is still one of the two High Officers of the Truce and Terms, so her broad authority there still supersedes Vivienne in some capacity.

Cat's legacy will be using the Accords to bind the worst of Named under a higher law. Vivienne's legacy will be taking the foundation by Cat to bring Callow into the Age of Order. And that involves ensuring that Callow and Praes are in a stable relationship of mutual benefit.

[Rydiro]

There's never been a Warden of the West. That's just a title the First Prince holds. But it's never been a Name before now, ASAIK

Cat literally told Cordelia "There is a Name for what you do." (Implying Warden of the West, and that the Name is well known) In one of the West Interludes.

[tyckspoon]

Cat literally told Cordelia "There is a Name for what you do." (Implying Warden of the West, and that the Name is well known) In one of the West Interludes.

Not even implied, Cat explicitly calls it out like two sentences later. I don't think it was indicating that the Name previously existed, tho - just that it was very obviously coming into existence, and Cordelia was just as obviously the candidate for it. (I think previously Warden of the West was only an epithet for the First Prince and not its own separate Name because the First Prince.. didn't really care about The West. They cared about Procer, if Procer was lucky, and more often than not likely cared more about their own individual principality. Cordelia is forging it into a Name and Role by extending her influence and order over Levant and the Free Cities as well - making her mark on The West in truth and not just from the self-aggrandizing position where Procer is clearly the most important part of The West.)

If there were no other claimants then she was probably going to wind up with the Name whether she wanted or not, and needed to start being aware of what that brought with it (..like not tempting Creation by saying things like 'just as planned.') If Cordelia does not become Warden of the West it's going to be because Hanno stepped up to it instead.

I like the reflected Hero/Villain thing that is trying to develop here where Cordelia is Warden of the West in the protector sense of the word, while Cat seems to be trying to get directed into Warden of the East in the director of a prison sense of the word... and also that neither of them actually want that Name, with Cordelia preferring to not be Named at all and Cat perceiving it as a trap trying to divert her new Name away from whatever its real potential could be.

[Fable Wright]

Cat's authority is based on villains, not all Named, so she won't always have authority over Vivienne, unless she becomes someone in charge of just the East. Right now her influence is 'Everywhere except Keter and Procer, and she has a solid connection to Procer'.

Queen Vivienne needs to control the Army of Callow. This is a matter of quite a bit of importance, as a nation's sovereignty is bound to its military.

If Queen Vivienne rules, but the Black Queen commands the army, then Queen Vivienne is a weak ruler because, in the end, sovereignty resides with Catherine. Queen Vivienne will never escape the shadow of the Black Queen being able to command her armies in wartime. She will have less legitimacy, and stories of a house divided will force a conflict.

A full abdication will require the cessation of military command, which both isn't in Catherine's nature, and would shunt Catherine out of all the stories.

She needs to keep politics in mind, but having Vivienne take on the political side (since she will be one of the political players in the East in the future) while she focuses on the Named dynamics of the conflict (one of the core dynamics of the Accords) is a a way to keep the focus on both sides while maintaining authority. Cat is still one of the two High Officers of the Truce and Terms, so her broad authority there still supersedes Vivienne in some capacity.

The problem is that a story is a groove carved into the fabric of creation.

What Cat's doing has never been done before. A binding of all the Named, an Accord to limit them, an Arbiter or a Warden to enforce them, none of those have a carved groove yet. She's creating a precedent, much as her father did; a precedent that can be worn into a groove by the next generation, a role for them to follow, and the power that rewards them for being politically independent.

That story does not exist yet. What you're proposing is hacking off the masts of a galleon so she'd no longer be at the mercy of the winds. I mean, technically it works. But it's giving up the key driving force that lets the ship do its job in doing so. She can use the wind to sail in directions other than where the wind is directly blowing, and move with force she couldn't otherwise get. Giving that up right now is counterproductive.

[Mith]

Queen Vivienne needs to control the Army of Callow. This is a matter of quite a bit of importance, as a nation's sovereignty is bound to its military.

If Queen Vivienne rules, but the Black Queen commands the army, then Queen Vivienne is a weak ruler because, in the end, sovereignty resides with Catherine. Queen Vivienne will never escape the shadow of the Black Queen being able to command her armies in wartime. She will have less legitimacy, and stories of a house divided will force a conflict.

A full abdication will require the cessation of military command, which both isn't in Catherine's nature, and would shunt Catherine out of all the stories.



The problem is that a story is a groove carved into the fabric of creation.

What Cat's doing has never been done before. A binding of all the Named, an Accord to limit them, an Arbiter or a Warden to enforce them, none of those have a carved groove yet. She's creating a precedent, much as her father did; a precedent that can be worn into a groove by the next generation, a role for them to follow, and the power that rewards them for being politically independent.

That story does not exist yet. What you're proposing is hacking off the masts of a galleon so she'd no longer be at the mercy of the winds. I mean, technically it works. But it's giving up the key driving force that lets the ship do its job in doing so. She can use the wind to sail in directions other than where the wind is directly blowing, and move with force she couldn't otherwise get. Giving that up right now is counterproductive.

I guess the perspective I am taking on this is more 'The White Knight is the primary symbol as the head of the Crusade, but the White Knight doesn't rule nations'.

Unfortunately, the basis of why it doesn't seem like she's 'cutting off her own masts' draws on historical politics, so I'll drop that.

I guess my question is: if she is being forced to choose between the nations/geopolitics and overall Villain Named, how can she shift her approach so that she is tackling this problem from that angle?

The geopolitical focus will just be an over ruler Name rather than an integral enforcer of the Accords specifically.

[Fable Wright]

I guess the perspective I am taking on this is more 'The White Knight is the primary symbol as the head of the Crusade, but the White Knight doesn't rule nations'.

Yep! I can see that perspective. I guess what I'm viewing is that the White Knight has a Role, tied to uniting people in the face of a greater adversary. And the White Knight at the head of a Crusade is a tale as old as time. He is empowered by standing apart from politics by the Gods Above and his Role, but Catherine... doesn't, yet.

Unfortunately, the basis of why it doesn't seem like she's 'cutting off her own masts' draws on historical politics, so I'll drop that.

I agree—from a rational perspective, this should absolutely work, and has in the real-world past.

I guess my question is: if she is being forced to choose between the nations/geopolitics and overall Villain Named, how can she shift her approach so that she is tackling this problem from that angle?

The geopolitical focus will just be an over ruler Name rather than an integral enforcer of the Accords specifically.

For my bet, I think she needs to meet with the Warlord, and pronounce a sentence on the Dread Empress of Praes. If she does anything but take counsel; dictate terms; and enforce them, she's out of the running for the villain game. That said? I'd say she needs to have Scribe handle the politics for her. Cat's handing things to a subordinate Name who no one trusts; isn't risking Vivienne's future; and Scribe will be able to get information for her through the meeting that Catherine wouldn't have herself.

Information control and political plotting is the Scribe's specialty. Delegating tasks to the Name fit for the job is exactly what an enforcer name would be about.

[Mith]

Yep! I can see that perspective. I guess what I'm viewing is that the White Knight has a Role, tied to uniting people in the face of a greater adversary. And the White Knight at the head of a Crusade is a tale as old as time. He is empowered by standing apart from politics by the Gods Above and his Role, but Catherine... doesn't, yet.



I agree—from a rational perspective, this should absolutely work, and has in the real-world past.



For my bet, I think she needs to meet with the Warlord, and pronounce a sentence on the Dread Empress of Praes. If she does anything but take counsel; dictate terms; and enforce them, she's out of the running for the villain game. That said? I'd say she needs to have Scribe handle the politics for her. Cat's handing things to a subordinate Name who no one trusts; isn't risking Vivienne's future; and Scribe will be able to get information for her through the meeting that Catherine wouldn't have herself.

Information control and political plotting is the Scribe's specialty. Delegating tasks to the Name fit for the job is exactly what an enforcer name would be about.

Cat is empowered by no one else around being able to overrule her save Sve Noc themselves. This is comparable in power to the White Knight, just not fully acknowledged due to Cat juggling so many hats for so long. Her doing so broadened her influence such that she had to be seen as the same broad weight as the centuries/millennia of White Knights. She is essentially Triumphant returned except most people want her to stick around. Since she is doing constructive work rather than large-scale construction, she will have a much larger shadow than the Empress Most Dread.

On a completely different note: Sve Noc may end up fully on par with Angels in time if they are this tied to the heart of the new Age, and one of it's chief founders. Their manifestation would be allowed by the Accords.

This assumes that this influence/period of relative peace enables them to recover and thrive in this new setting. Arguably the relative conditions of the drow have gotten worst since Cat arrived. However, it can actually improve in the future.

Still do not like the complete lack of narrative acknowledgement on the drow front.

[Fable Wright]

Cat is empowered by no one else around being able to overrule her save Sve Noc themselves. This is comparable in power to the White Knight, just not fully acknowledged due to Cat juggling so many hats for so long. Her doing so broadened her influence such that she had to be seen as the same broad weight as the centuries/millennia of White Knights. She is essentially Triumphant returned except most people want her to stick around. Since she is doing constructive work rather than large-scale construction, she will have a much larger shadow than the Empress Most Dread.

Eh... No one else around is able to make Ranger do anything she doesn't want to do, except maybe the Golden Bloom. This is greater in power than the White Knight, and she's up there with the Saint of Swords in terms of 'people who could kill the Dead King'. Ranger + Severance is a terrifying thought. But Ranger couldn't make the Accords work if she wanted to, because she doesn't have a country to bind them to.

In terms of broad influence, Amadeus the Black Knight was the terror of a continent for decades, and was romping merrily around Procer for months as his name grew weaker, because that wasn't what his Role was for. His Name would fizzle out if he tried to bring people together in a unified coalition to fight a greater evil, if he didn't become a Claimant for the White Knight.

Perceived influence and power ≠ narrative empowerment, is all I'm saying.

On a completely different note: Sve Noc may end up fully on par with Angels in time if they are this tied to the heart of the new Age, and one of it's chief founders. Their manifestation would be allowed by the Accords.

I... do not think Sve Noc could end up on par with the seven Choirs. One angel-corpse is enough to blast half of Calernia to dust. They act as the backers for a large percentage of Heroes. And most importantly, those Seven Choirs are equivalent in power to all of the infinite Hells and all the demons and devils living in them. They the Gods Above's equal and opposite answer to Bellow's Hell. A God Below that's free to act on Creation with the equivalent power of the combined hand of the infinite Hells would ruin the balance of power, and with it, the Wager that keeps the world in place.

Still do not like the complete lack of narrative acknowledgement on the drow front.

Yeah. Half of the Drow power source getting Ruined when facing against the Dead King, now that he has effective weapons, is... not great. I would say that this is a no news is good news thing, though—because of the nature of Sve Noc, Catherine would know if the Drow front collapsed entirely. It's just not as important as the Greater Breaches.