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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    For the same reason they usually donít take arcana, or the same reason no one takes medicine.
    Those aren't analogous. Medicine is redundant. Arcana has few or no combat applications, and one expert can generally cover the whole party's needs. Stealth is more like Perception - - everyone in the party benefits from being proficient. You can gain action economy AND superior precombat positioning from good Stealth rolls. Why else do you think Captain America has Stealth proficiency in Winter Soldier?
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    For the same reason they usually donít take arcana, or the same reason no one takes medicine.

    Itís a waste of a skill proficiency, especially since heavy armor using classes are light in skills in the first place.

    Going from 1d20 at disadvantage to 1d20+3 at disadvantage is not a good use of a skill slot.
    I have literally never seen a dedicated heavy armor user take stealth.
    Depends. If we look at the most common PP scores and common buffs like PWT, proficiency is usually enough to insure that no one blows the party's stealth. Not to mention disadvantage is pretty easy to cancel out.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Depends. If we look at the most common PP scores and common buffs like PWT, proficiency is usually enough to insure that no one blows the party's stealth. Not to mention disadvantage is pretty easy to cancel out.
    In fact, proficiency alone pretty much cancels out disadvantage by level 5. Disadvantage, in many ways, is basically -3, and level 5 proficiency is +3.
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    In fact, proficiency alone pretty much cancels out disadvantage by level 5. Disadvantage, in many ways, is basically -3, and level 5 proficiency is +3.
    Aye. Grabbing proficiency to address weak points instead of buffing strong points is a very under appreciated strategy.
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Thats because it is what the rules say to do.
    Would you mind telling me where it says that?

    I know the general rules for stealth say that it is your stealth versus an opponents passive perception, but the rules section on group checks says that a DM can have everyone roll, and only half need to succeed, as it represents the more skilled members of the party helping out the less skilled ones. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm unaware of anything specific to stealth that makes group checks invalid for it.

    If anything, it is one of the extremes that group checks are specifically designed for. Their entire point is so that you can't just have everyone roll and either one success means everyone succeeds or one failure means everyone fails. It would kind of seem to defeat the entire purpose of having group check rules if key types of checks could not use them.

    Obviously, you could argue whether the group rules should apply for stealth, but I don't see anything in them that suggests they can't.
    Last edited by jas61292; 2021-03-05 at 06:04 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    ...Why else do you think Captain America has Stealth proficiency in Winter Soldier?
    Cuz it's worthwhile, since he's not already clanging to high heaven with every step?
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Advantage on stealth checks for 2 characters, upcast to add 1 additional per level? Or retain the all within 30ft?
    Honestly... I don't think it would make a huge difference to most parties, but my preference would be for everyone within 30ft. Squeeze some of the problem uses from it but keep it as powerful as you can whilst doing so.



    Quote Originally Posted by jas61292 View Post
    Reading this thread, it seems like everyone seems to assume that for stealth that every player must succeed for the group to sneak successfully. In my personal experience, when sneaking as a full group, the DM (whether myself or otherwise) simply uses the group check rules, and only half of the party needs to succeed. The exact way your DM handles checks like these greatly effects how a spell like this one would impact your game.

    In games that don't do group stealth checks, I can see how Pass Without Trace might seem balanced. +10 is a massive bonus, but you are essentially making a check with super disadvantage. With disadvantage and negative dex on the Heavy Armor user, they are still often going to be getting results in the mid to low teens, which are by no means guaranteed successes, especially at higher levels. And even if they get lucky, you could always have your Sorcerer or something, with a +2 or +3 Dex but no stealth proficiency, roll a 1 or 2 and be just as bad. The spell certainly makes it possible to succeed, and maybe even likely if the things you are trying to sneak past are not very perceptive, but its hardly a guarantee.

    On the other hand, in games like the one I play in where group checks are used, Pass Without Trace can be obscenely overpowered. In a standard party of 4, if you just have two people with decent dex and stealth proficiency, it becomes next to impossible to fail. Starting from when it comes into play at level 3, you can easily already have +4 or +5 stealth without any special investment, meaning your minimum rolls for those characters become 15 or 16. Anything with a passive of 14 or lower (which is a ton of things) will never spot your party. Higher levels just get ridiculous.

    With that said, I do think Pass Without Trace is a poorly designed spell. Regardless of power level, it just does not conform to the normal standards of 5e, which makes it feel really out of place. I don't know what would be balanced, but I think it would fit in a heck of a lot better if it either granted advantage, or set a minimum roll, like so many other features in the game do.
    The other assumption that seems to permiate this thread is that it isn't OK to split the party. That somehow if some of the party are sneaking about then the loud ones will be revealing their location because they are in the same place. Letting the stealthy characters have their time in the spotlight is fine as well and the tactical decision that need to be made around possibly having to execute a fighting withdrawal vs the benefits of stealth and the information it provides can be engaging. I am not sayin this needs to happen all the time but where stealth is important, let the stealthy benefi from their investment in a way that others don't.

    I agree though that it does demend on how the DM handles checks of this type. If you can drown out the noise of other party members by being really quiet or adding a stealthy person to a group actually lowers the total noise then things are a bit different.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by jas61292 View Post
    Would you mind telling me where it says that?
    PHB Chapter 9: Combat, Surprise, p189

    The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

    This is actually functionally impossible to resolve as described using Group checks. Even if you wanted to say "group checks can be used for any check", that isn't an option, as there is no rule for how to resolve in a comparison of many to many contests.

    Same thing applies for a group check to Hide, it's not possible to resolve without some kind of House Rule.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Aye. Grabbing proficiency to address weak points instead of buffing strong points is a very under appreciated strategy.
    Because itís a bad strategy. You can use the resource to be slightly below average at a skill you have inherent disadvantage in due to your play style (heavy armor), or use the same resource to be superlative in a skill you have a natural advantage in (say athletics for shoving and grappling)

    If youíll never be better at average in it itís not really worth it, especially when thereís a spell designed to provide you with a better bonus than you could ever achieve on your own.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Because itís a bad strategy. You can use the resource to be slightly below average at a skill you have inherent disadvantage in due to your play style (heavy armor), or use the same resource to be superlative in a skill you have a natural advantage in (say athletics for shoving and grappling)
    Fortunately you can do both because you get four skills, not one.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-03-05 at 06:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Fortunately you can do both.
    Except youíd be better off not doing both but just using the spell if available
    Last edited by Mikal; 2021-03-05 at 06:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I'm not talking about True Polymorph combos.

    Even the basic, OOB, RAI usage of Simulacrum to double a character's abilities and spell slots is broken, even before you then set a duplicate of a full caster to chain Wishing for more copies of the original. What other 7th level spell is there that gives you more 8th and 9th level spells?
    Well I guess some games are easier to break than others.

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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    PHB Chapter 9: Combat, Surprise, p189

    The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.

    This is actually functionally impossible to resolve as described using Group checks. Even if you wanted to say "group checks can be used for any check", that isn't an option, as there is no rule for how to resolve in a comparison of many to many contests.

    Same thing applies for a group check to Hide, it's not possible to resolve without some kind of House Rule.
    Hmmm.... I had not thought about the surprise rules. That is a good point.

    That being said, the surprise rules only really have effect if you are assuming that stealth is being used for an ambush, and that being spotted can only ever result in initiative being rolled. I don't think that is a correct assumption. If you are trying to sneak by some guards to get into a noble's house, for instance, you are trying to get past the guards, not up to them to attack them. Furthermore, if you are spotted, chances are they are going to yell at you and try and shoo you away, not swing a sword at you. As such, there is no reason to ever be looking at the surprise rules, and no issue would come up.

    To be honest, in my experience, stealth with the goal of getting past someone, rather than ambushing them, is by far the more common example. But this is absolutely group dependent, of course. While in some of these situations the creatures you are trying to sneak past will attack on sight if they see you, I don't see any issue with allowing the players to do a group check with the knowledge that if they are caught, none of them get surprise, since they are moving close together or something, and either all get in position unseen, or are all spotted.

    But yes, if the stealth is specifically for an ambush, a group check will not work.
    Last edited by jas61292; 2021-03-05 at 06:56 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by jas61292 View Post
    But yes, if the stealth is specifically for an ambush, a group check will not work.
    It also doesn't work in group hiding. That's many stealth vs many perceptions. There's no one DC for the single task.

    You can "cheat" it if all the opponents have the same passive perception and make a House rule that the PP in that case is the DC to beat. But if they're variable PPs or (for some reason) rolled perception, the house rule gets more complicated.

    It also makes no sense narratively, since stealth isn't something where the better folks can make up for the worse. If one person messes up, it takes down everyone.

    Now if the DM sets a stealth vs fixed DC (e.g not hiding) scenario, and determines that in this scenario one person won't hose the entire group, that it takes half to pull the other half down, and conversely half can pull the other half up, then it can work as a group check

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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Because itís a bad strategy. You can use the resource to be slightly below average at a skill you have inherent disadvantage in due to your play style (heavy armor), or use the same resource to be superlative in a skill you have a natural advantage in (say athletics for shoving and grappling)

    If youíll never be better at average in it itís not really worth it, especially when thereís a spell designed to provide you with a better bonus than you could ever achieve on your own.
    I disagree that grabbing a proficiency to be mediocre is a bad strategy in some cases. Perception is one that gets rolled a lot and applies to every character. If you fail, you're surprised and lose a round of actions and are more likely to take damage on that round. Mediocre stealth in combination with Pass Without Trace can overcome a poor Dex and Heavy Armor; this will result in a character being able to join in a potential ambush. I think in both of these cases it's definitely valuable to be proficient.

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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by 5eNeedsDarksun View Post
    I disagree that grabbing a proficiency to be mediocre is a bad strategy in some cases. Perception is one that gets rolled a lot and applies to every character.
    Perception skill is overrated by a lot of players.

    Passive PP is a fixed value and it should be used in 95% of all situations. The only time it doesn't get used is if you already know something is there to find, but can't find it right now, and you only get one shot at finding it. Basically, it's restricted to burning your action in combat to find something this round you just saw disappear the last few rounds. 2-3 points of PP has some defensive use if your DM likes to have enemies run an ambush constantly.

    But Stealth offensive use isn't nearly as strong for HA users, because disadvantage. Unless you're constantly attempting ambushes as the PCs .. in which case why the heck didn't you build a stealth team in the first place?

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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Perception skill is overrated by a lot of players.

    Passive PP is a fixed value and it should be used in 95% of all situations. The only time it doesn't get used is if you already know something is there to find, but can't find it right now, and you only get one shot at finding it. Basically, it's restricted to burning your action in combat to find something this round you just saw disappear the last few rounds. 2-3 points of PP has some defensive use if your DM likes to have enemies run an ambush constantly.

    But Stealth offensive use isn't nearly as strong for HA users, because disadvantage. Unless you're constantly attempting ambushes as the PCs .. in which case why the heck didn't you build a stealth team in the first place?
    But monsters relying on Darkvision have disadvantage too, to their passive perception. So there's several scenarios where Stealth proficiency is useful on a heavy armor wearer:

    (1) You take off your heavy armor and put on e.g. a breastplate because in the current scenario, stealth is more important than AC.

    (2) You're fighting in the dark (maybe with the help of a Darkvision spell) so a bunch of the monsters have Passive Perception ~6ish anyway, and your d20 (disadvantage) + 3ish Stealth roll is actually pretty decent!

    (3) Stealth in this scenario is tactically helpful (surprise rounds) but not vital, so having a ~40% chance of surprising the monsters is still worth doing. Let's not forgot that if the monsters don't see you, this overcomes poor Perception rolls on your part because the monsters don't see you either--one of your buddies who DID see the monsters will have time to warn you before you break cover and attack them.

    (4) You've got some kind of a stealth booster like Pass Without Trace or Enhance Ability (Dex) or Invisibility.

    (5) More than one of the above.

    You ask, "Why didn't you build a stealth team in the first place?" and the answer is, "Taking stealth proficiency is part of building a stealth team!" And it's cheap, so why not?

    From a powergaming perspective, every warrior should ideally have Stealth, Athletics or maybe Acrobatics (but usually Athletics), and Perception as proficiencies. From a RP perspective (or a challenge-seeking perspective) not every PC should be powergame-optimized, but tactically these skills have the greatest impact on combat.
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikal View Post
    Because itís a bad strategy. You can use the resource to be slightly below average at a skill you have inherent disadvantage in due to your play style (heavy armor), or use the same resource to be superlative in a skill you have a natural advantage in (say athletics for shoving and grappling)

    If youíll never be better at average in it itís not really worth it, especially when thereís a spell designed to provide you with a better bonus than you could ever achieve on your own.
    Those spells you're talking about are fairly expensive in terms of preparing them and their slot cost. There's nothing wrong with relying on your party to cover up weak points that you have but a single skill proficiency is a very cheap investment to increase the minimum stealth check for the entire party. Even with a negative modifier in dexterity, proficiency allows the heavy armor user to utilize pass without trace too much higher degree than anybody else in the party. With Tasha's opening up expertise to every class players are almost always better off spending that expertise focusing on a weak point rather than expanding their strengths. speaking of strengths expertise in athletics is usually redundant.

    The only reason not to have self proficiency is because it doesn't fit the image a character.

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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Perception skill is overrated by a lot of players.

    Passive PP is a fixed value and it should be used in 95% of all situations. The only time it doesn't get used is if you already know something is there to find, but can't find it right now, and you only get one shot at finding it. Basically, it's restricted to burning your action in combat to find something this round you just saw disappear the last few rounds. 2-3 points of PP has some defensive use if your DM likes to have enemies run an ambush constantly.

    But Stealth offensive use isn't nearly as strong for HA users, because disadvantage. Unless you're constantly attempting ambushes as the PCs .. in which case why the heck didn't you build a stealth team in the first place?
    Fair first point; I should have written that "Perception is applied a lot", not rolled. I think there is still value in having that fixed value be handful of points higher.
    Re: stealth.. My point would be that if you have a party with Pass without Trace you can still be a Heavy Armor user with Stealth (Say +14 bonus at mid levels) and overcome the disadvantage to beat Passive Perception in most cases. Basically you can have the best of both worlds: Strength based martial and still participate in ambushes.

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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    It also makes no sense narratively, since stealth isn't something where the better folks can make up for the worse. If one person messes up, it takes down everyone.
    I'm not going to debate the rules side of things much, as you make some good point, but I would disagree with this statement. A character skilled at sneaking absolutely could help out characters who are worse. First off, the description of group checks is not about characters "making up" for the shortcomings of others. It talks about helping each other out. The example used is with survival and avoiding hazards. Characters who have successful checks help the other characters navigate the hazards. I don't see why, for stealth, you could not have sneakier characters help out the less skilled ones by pointing out the best hiding spots, important places not to stand, and any potential hazards that could trip you up or give away your position.

    Ultimately though, the "logic" of the check is irrelevant because it is an abstraction. The rules for group checks exist as a way to eliminate the "one check to rule the all" style of play. Skill checks are an abstraction of what is happening in game. Simply allowing skill checks to correlate one to one with actual attempts by each character leads to situations where the entire group tries something always having super advantage or super disadvantage. That is not a fun, or realistic, no matter which way it goes.

    On the one hand, you can use group checks to say that, no, everyone cannot roll for Arcana separately to determine what this magic circle does. Either you let the person who is best at it roll (potentially with advantage from the help action), or have everyone roll and do a group check. If you do the former, it represents the most learned of the group explaining what they think, and the group trusting in their expertise. If you do the latter, it represents represents the group discussing the topic together and coming to a consensus. Mechanically, this means that you don't just get super advantage by having more people. Narratively it means that success is the group agreeing on something that is correct, and failure means the group could not come to a consensus, or that what was agreed upon was incorrect. Sure, maybe one individual did have the correct idea, but were convinced otherwise by the group as a whole. But whichever way you go about things, it is still an abstraction of what is happening.

    On the other hand, you have things like stealth, yes, but also potentially things like deception, where typically logic might dictate that one failure dooms the entire group. And while you could run it that way, group checks are just as much for abstracting the situation so that that does not happen. Say you have your entire group pretending to be some other group and trying to bluff your way into a private location. "Logically" any one of the members of the group breaking character (that is to say, failing their deception check), would set off the alarm bells and doom the entire operation. But that is not fun or interesting. And that is why group checks exist. Rather than just saying that one member screwing up dooms the group, you say that by having half the group succeed, they are able to cover for to worse liars, and deftly explain away any inconsistencies.

    Yes, in the end, stealth will always have some special issues because of its specific combat interactions. But I think the whole narrative argument makes no sense, as its all just an abstraction. A group check is not truly saying that "half of the characters succeeding is good enough." Its saying that "half the players rolling successfully represents the characters working together in a way such that they all succeed."
    Last edited by jas61292; 2021-03-05 at 08:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    From a powergaming perspective, every warrior should ideally have Stealth, Athletics or maybe Acrobatics (but usually Athletics), and Perception as proficiencies. From a RP perspective (or a challenge-seeking perspective) not every PC should be powergame-optimized, but tactically these skills have the greatest impact on combat.
    That's a valid perspective, if everyone is optimizing for the absolute best combat first and foremost. If the majority of a game is going to be combat encounters and the majority of those are going to be an ambush in either direction, I'd probably strongly consider it even on a Dex 8 HA wearer, as well as the party having at least two casters to put PWT up as much as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by jas61292 View Post
    Ultimately though, the "logic" of the check is irrelevant because it is an abstraction. The rules for group checks exist as a way to eliminate the "one check to rule the all" style of play. Skill checks are an abstraction of what is happening in game. Simply allowing skill checks to correlate one to one with actual attempts by each character leads to situations where the entire group tries something always having super advantage or super disadvantage. That is not a fun, or realistic, no matter which way it goes.

    On the one hand, you can use group checks to say that, no, everyone cannot roll for Arcana separately to determine what this magic circle does. Either you let the person who is best at it roll (potentially with advantage from the help action), or have everyone roll and do a group check. If you do the former, it represents the most learned of the group explaining what they think, and the group trusting in their expertise. If you do the latter, it represents represents the group discussing the topic together and coming to a consensus. Mechanically, this means that you don't just get super advantage by having more people. Narratively it means that success is the group agreeing on something that is correct, and failure means the group could not come to a consensus, or that what was agreed upon was incorrect. Sure, maybe one individual did have the correct idea, but were convinced otherwise by the group as a whole. But whichever way you go about things, it is still an abstraction of what is happening.
    From a abstract perceptive, I get where you're coming from. I've definitely used Intelligence (Lore) checks exactly that way.

    But also from a game balance perspective, I feel that the value of hiding as a group & surprise is strong enough that it's balanced around low skill characters being an intentional drag on the group, and larger groups being naturally worse at it. A reverse One Check to Rule Them All situation ... every check matters.

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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by NecessaryWeevil View Post
    Yes, if you can be seen clearly, you can't be hidden. But the spell makes you harder to see.
    Just curious where you get that from.

    "A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can't be tracked except by magical means. A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its passage."

    The spell only does what it says it does. There is a veil of shadows and silence that radiates from you. However, mechanically it does nothing, it describes what it looks like. The shadows do not provide any obscuration (light or heavy) and the "silence" doesn't actually make you silent - if anything, it just makes you quieter.

    What the spell actually does is add +10 to stealth checks and prevents you from being tracked except by magical means.

    If the spell actually caused obscuration, made you silent AND made sure that that you didn't leave any tracks then the spell text would say that the character was automatically hidden when under the effects of the spell. (Since being hidden is both unseen and unheard and if you aren't leaving any tracks then there are very few ways that such a creature could be noticed).

    However, the spell doesn't say that at all, only that the character gets +10 to stealth checks that rely on dexterity.

    So, I would have to say that the spell, in no way, makes you harder to see - it does not provide any form of obscuration (light or heavy) and thus does not prevent being seen from canceling any effect of trying to hide (the spell also does not say that a creature under the effect of pass without trace can try to hide while the invisibility spell clearly states that).

    If a creature has a clear view to another creature under the effect of Pass Without Trace then that creature is clearly visible, it is not hidden, and stealth does not apply at all - so the +10 does nothing in such a circumstance.
    Last edited by Keravath; 2021-03-07 at 03:02 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Personally, I'll be looking at Pass Without Trace from the perspective of "magic-user solves everything, again". At some point, I'll be making a pass through the spell lists to nerf or toss spells that, well, basically take a martial's schitck and jumps up and down on it whilst making fart noises.

    Don't get me wrong... I love casters. They are universally my favourite classes to play. But I'm acutely aware that martials would be so much less boring if the answer to "let's get in, lock the door, and set a tripwire bell on the shutters" wasn't "Knock, Arcane Lock, Alarm". Let casters focus on making the Laws of Nature shut up and sit down, and let the martials be, you know, good at things that shouldn't actually need magic.

    Pass Without Trace doesn't just shore up weaknesses... it eliminates them, whilst also making the rogue's Expertise in stealth redundant.

    But my argument has nothing to do with the balance or power of the spell. It's coming from a fundamental design concept I want to change. So I'm not sure it's relevant to this thread; feel free to ignore it if that's the case.
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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    I like this change.
    I have plans to strip almost all the +numbers effects out of the game from enhancement bonuses on magic items to the ubiquitous guidance cantrip and achieve the promise of bounded accuracy.

    This is going into my house rule ideas folder.
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  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Make Pass without a Trace a less broken spell

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnirbear View Post
    Pass Without Trace doesn't just shore up weaknesses... it eliminates them, whilst also making the rogue's Expertise in stealth redundant.
    Speaking as a rogue 1 / shadow monk 3, it doesn't make my expertise in Stealth FEEL redundant.

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