AITA - Slightly homebrew grappling rules

[Enderasha]

To be clear these rules are symmetrical and apply both to players and monsters. So the relevant text in the PHB is:

Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.

These rules don't say "regardless of the weight of the creature". My interpretation, or at least the one I'm going with, is that this text assumes you meet the criteria for what it is you are trying to do and simply states regardless of which option you choose your movement is halved. Therefore the weight of what you are trying to pick up and drag is factored into the equation.

What I've been doing with my players, and I was up front about this, is taking into account the weight of my monsters and NPC's as well as the players and gave myself a handy chart with the lift and push capacity based on size. When someone tries to move a grappled creature I check to see if they're strong enough to do this and if they are they can.

I don't think players realize how heavy creatures are, especially those one size larger than you. A black bear (medium creature) weighs 300-600 pounds. A strength 20 character can just barely drag this bear around while grappled. A Brown Bear or Polar Bear can weight up to 900-1200 pounds therefore they cannot be dragged around unless the player has things like "powerful build" or is under an enlarge effect. Anything heavier than that likely isn't doable such as a stone golem or other beefy creature.

Is it reasonable to enforce this set of rules?

[Randomthom]

I don't think this would even qualify as homebrew to my eyes. You're correctly applying the grappling rules and the lifting & carrying rules. I'd probably simplify it for myself and allow the strong characters (maybe Str 17+) to be allowed to push/drag large creatures, everyone else would be limited to medium creatures.

[Enderasha]

I try to delineate type of creatures though. A Brown bear weights 1200 lbs, a Stone Golem weights 2000 lbs, and a Gorgon weighs 4000 lbs. All of them are large creatures.

Technically Jeremy Crawford posted on twitter (not that his tweets are canonical) but stated it was their intent to omit monster weight in stats so that it doesn't factor into these types of things like grappling. I just can't get behind that. I'm all for suspension of disbelief in my fantasy, i don't do hardcore realistic physics but this seems like a reasonable stance I think.

[Amnestic]

5e is intended to be streamlined, and from a quick glance down some monster manual entries most monsters do not have a weight listed, indicating that grapple-dragging shouldn't factor in weight. It is solely size-based by the rules.

However if you wanted to include weight requirements in your grapple drags that's a fair thing to do and I wouldn't have an issue with a DM implementing such a rule as long as I knew about it ahead of character creation (or have a chance to rebuild if I'm a grappler and it's added partway through a game - it might mean I need to retool some things to either stay a grappler, or move away from it). It's a house rule, it's a reasonable house rule that adds some complexity that isn't otherwise there, but that's fine.

[StoneSeraph]

I try to delineate type of creatures though. A Brown bear weights 1200 lbs, a Stone Golem weights 2000 lbs, and a Gorgon weighs 4000 lbs. All of them are large creatures.

Technically Jeremy Crawford posted on twitter (not that his tweets are canonical) but stated it was their intent to omit monster weight in stats so that it doesn't factor into these types of things like grappling. I just can't get behind that. I'm all for suspension of disbelief in my fantasy, i don't do hardcore realistic physics but this seems like a reasonable stance I think.

These creatures weigh quite a bit, that's true, but presumably they're also standing and balancing while engaged in combat; a brown bear isn't going to immediately sit on his backside in response to something trying to push it backwards. I make the assumption that, when grappled, the target is trying to stay on its feet and that the "drag" is the allowance of pushback while also maintaining balance. But that's just my interpretation.

If you want, you could go full Shadow of the Colossus and allow your grappler players to climb their targets, depending on size. Conversely, you could allow those large targets to attempt to carry the smaller creatures (or player characters) that are climbing them and use them as improvised weapons. I can see the weeds growing from here, though, so that may not be the way to go, but it's an idea that, with an elegant solution, could be interesting.

[PhoenixPhyre]

These creatures weigh quite a bit, that's true, but presumably they're also standing and balancing while engaged in combat; a brown bear isn't going to immediately sit on his backside in response to something trying to push it backwards. I make the assumption that, when grappled, the target is trying to stay on its feet and that the "drag" is the allowance of pushback while also maintaining balance. But that's just my interpretation.
.

Yeah. You're not carrying deadweight. You're twisting someone's arm or dragging them while they resist. Like pulling a toddler by the arm. You're not picking them up or dragging their entire weight against friction--they're carrying themselves and walking.

The grapple check is just as much about "can I control your movement" as it is "can I physically grab hold of you". A Small creature can grab a Large creature, but they can't control their movement. So no grapple[1].

[1] instead you should probably use the "climbing on larger creatures" variant rule from the DMG.

[Enderasha]

I get that they aren't dead weight. Hence why I cut some slack in terms of the weight. I am not assuming that the player is pushing the entire 600 pounds of the black bear i was simply mentioning their weight as a reference. I do assume that they are dealing with a decent percentage of its weight. Thematically certain creatures, like the stone golem, a roper, or gorgon, are extremely dense and make sense that they'd be harder to move. The forgotten realms wiki is actually really helpful as it lists suggested weights for a lot of standard monsters.

I know there are other ways this can be run I'm more just asking whether this, as long as it is presented to players, is reasonable as a house rule in the form presented.

Could also make it a contested straight strength check (not athletics) when trying to drag something as it is literally the two of you playing tug of war when trying to relocate them. Give large+ creatures a size bonus like older editions. This is a little clunky and a bit more 3.5-ish. I think it's less elegant to do it this way since it forces a lot more rolling but it does remove the weight from the equation entirely.

[Unoriginal]

I get that they aren't dead weight. Hence why I cut some slack in terms of the weight. I am not assuming that the player is pushing the entire 600 pounds of the black bear i was simply mentioning their weight as a reference. I do assume that they are dealing with a decent percentage of its weight. Thematically certain creatures, like the stone golem, a roper, or gorgon, are extremely dense and make sense that they'd be harder to move. The forgotten realms wiki is actually really helpful as it lists suggested weights for a lot of standard monsters.

I know there are other ways this can be run I'm more just asking whether this, as long as it is presented to players, is reasonable as a house rule in the form presented.

Could also make it a contested straight strength check (not athletics) when trying to drag something as it is literally the two of you playing tug of war when trying to relocate them. Give large+ creatures a size bonus like older editions. This is a little clunky and a bit more 3.5-ish. I think it's less elegant to do it this way since it forces a lot more rolling but it does remove the weight from the equation entirely.

You're nerfing grappling by introducing a factor the game purposely left out, and you're already thinking about how it will make things less enjoyable for at least some players.

Regardless, if you want to introduce this house rule -any house rule-, it's your prerogative as a DM. Just make crystal clear to all the players that attempting to move an opponent you have determined as being too heavy will be more difficult.

Also, for fairness's sake, if the too heavy creatures are difficult to move by hand, please at least give them similar resistance to magical attempts to move them, like Thunderwave or Thorn Whip.

[Joe the Rat]

Tagging in:

It looks like mostly an abstraction - a large creature is probably in the drag weight range of a strong medium-sized PC - it's being more generous in allowing slowed movement over drag movement. I'd be inclined to let it sit. The point about forcing movement (pain, leverage, flat out dragging) works here as well. Mostly.

If you do want to play with weight, then you should be able to carry creatures of smaller size (no movement issues beyond encumbrance) - you might want to come up with some sort of ruling on when you are dragging the precocious halfling (affecting movement), and when you have them in a football carry or straight-armed away from your body like an emetting toddler.

On the point of moving the grapplee: when you move, your speed is halved - moving yourself and the grapplee. I frequently have players that want to move the grapple target without moving themselves. What I've ruled is that when you are grappling someone, you can move them separately at a cost of your movement - treating the normal movement penalty as spending movement for yourself, and your dance partner.

[Enderasha]

I admit a lot of this is derived from me wrestling (pun intended) with player tactics that came about in the last game I ran and know it will creep up again. Players went expertise/advantage/or both on athletics checks for grapples to the point where almost no monster can realistically resist despite their strength score. This was then coupled with grapple=>Shove to prone which serves almost the exact same purpose as the pin action a grapple feat player can except the shove can be done in place of a single attack and doesn't impart restrained onto the grappler. The grapplee still has disadvantage on all physical attacks from the ground and all melee attacks against them are at advantage.

I like having diversity in my enemies and villains and plot NPC's but unless they flew, had teleport, or freedom of movement (which is surprisingly a large percentage of monsters, humanoids, and the like; and even then freedom of movement can be counterspelled)they could just be pushed face first into the ground and be screwed then subsequently dragged through whatever static spells were active on the battlefield such as web, wall of fire etc.

I want to reign in grappling for people that don't have any of the feats and fighting styles that are specifically designed to make it better.

Also regarding forced movement and grapple. If you hit someone with a Crusher or Swarmkeeper etc and move them away from a grapple then the grapple immediately ends per the rules. Is there anything legally that prevents someone from simply using the shove action on their ally who can willingly fail to resist and push them out of the grapple?

[Amnestic]

Is there anything legally that prevents someone from simply using the shove action on their ally who can willingly fail to resist and push them out of the grapple?

You can't willingly fail being shoved. Choosing to fail saves/contests crops up in some spells, but it's not a universal rule.

If you want to change that, again, feel free, but it's not the rules as standard.

[R.Shackleford]

With a 15 Strength, in 5e, my medium sized character...

Has a Carrying Capacity of 225 lbs (Str Score x 15)

Can Push, Drag, or Lift 450lbs (Str Score x 30... Carrying Capacity x2). While pushing or dragging weight in excess of 225 lbs (carrying capacity), my speed drops to 5 feet.

So, as long as it works along these lines, it should be fine.


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Strength 20 has a Carrying Capacity of 300 lbs BUT a push/drag/life of 600 lbs.


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However, martials are screwed over in the game as is, so I would just ignore this in battle and go with the fact that a martial fighting type would know how to use the weight of a creature against it... Because they are just that good.

Side note, grappling a black bear should totally be Strength (Animal Handling) check lol



Edit: Pushing/pulling a human is much easier and different than dragging a human. Or anything that is living. You aren't dragging the bear, you're making it move.

Have someone go limp and try to pick them up or pull them across the floor (by their legs) and then just pick them up normally. Center of gravity and a bunch of other things come into play. Even with lifting. I can pick up a 300 lbs human but 300 lbs of metal isn't happening.

So, you aren't a jerk for making the houserule as it comes from a good place, but you're wrong for implementing it.

[Unoriginal]

I admit a lot of this is derived from me wrestling (pun intended) with player tactics that came about in the last game I ran and know it will creep up again. Players went expertise/advantage/or both on athletics checks for grapples to the point where almost no monster can realistically resist despite their strength score. This was then coupled with grapple=>Shove to prone which serves almost the exact same purpose as the pin action a grapple feat player can except the shove can be done in place of a single attack and doesn't impart restrained onto the grappler. The grapplee still has disadvantage on all physical attacks from the ground and all melee attacks against them are at advantage.

I like having diversity in my enemies and villains and plot NPC's but unless they flew, had teleport, or freedom of movement (which is surprisingly a large percentage of monsters, humanoids, and the like; and even then freedom of movement can be counterspelled)they could just be pushed face first into the ground and be screwed then subsequently dragged through whatever static spells were active on the battlefield such as web, wall of fire etc.

I want to reign in grappling for people that don't have any of the feats and fighting styles that are specifically designed to make it better.

Also regarding forced movement and grapple. If you hit someone with a Crusher or Swarmkeeper etc and move them away from a grapple then the grapple immediately ends per the rules. Is there anything legally that prevents someone from simply using the shove action on their ally who can willingly fail to resist and push them out of the grapple?

My best advice is to *not* nerf something because the players have """"too much""" success with it.

How about, rather than "reign in" grappling, you have the enemies participate in the fun?

What I mean by that is, you have a technique that is both effective by the rules AND known as effective in-universe, why would the PCs be the only ones to use it?

Give some NPCs proficiencies and expertises in Athletics, plus grapple moves, and moves that work on grappling opponents, for example.

You can have wrestlers, and have some of them recognize the PCs as fellow wrestlers.

[Enderasha]

Even if you can't choose to fail if you have any ally or there is a minion with better strength than the villain then they'd likely win. It would remove the PC's grapple skill from the equation entirely.

It also just strikes me as stupid that most play styles take feats to make what they do stronger. Crossbow expert, Sharpshooter, GWM etc. Maybe just change the awful grappler feat so that grapple=>push prone is exclusively a thing those with the feat can do. Similarly the grappler feat could negate weight restrictions when dragging monsters of one size larger than you. I'd like someone to need to invest in grappling as a playstyle as opposed to simply choosing Athletics as one of their expertise skills.

[BoutsofInsanity]

I admit a lot of this is derived from me wrestling (pun intended) with player tactics that came about in the last game I ran and know it will creep up again. Players went expertise/advantage/or both on athletics checks for grapples to the point where almost no monster can realistically resist despite their strength score. This was then coupled with grapple=>Shove to prone which serves almost the exact same purpose as the pin action a grapple feat player can except the shove can be done in place of a single attack and doesn't impart restrained onto the grappler. The grapplee still has disadvantage on all physical attacks from the ground and all melee attacks against them are at advantage.

I like having diversity in my enemies and villains and plot NPC's but unless they flew, had teleport, or freedom of movement (which is surprisingly a large percentage of monsters, humanoids, and the like; and even then freedom of movement can be counterspelled)they could just be pushed face first into the ground and be screwed then subsequently dragged through whatever static spells were active on the battlefield such as web, wall of fire etc.

I want to reign in grappling for people that don't have any of the feats and fighting styles that are specifically designed to make it better.

Also regarding forced movement and grapple. If you hit someone with a Crusher or Swarmkeeper etc and move them away from a grapple then the grapple immediately ends per the rules. Is there anything legally that prevents someone from simply using the shove action on their ally who can willingly fail to resist and push them out of the grapple?

I think you are going about this the wrong way. You aren't really trying to implement a more realistic rule set to create more verisimilitude. You are trying to nerf a player tactic that you feel is unfair. And I think you think it's unfair is because you don't know how to counter it.

Lets start with this part first. Nerfing the Natural Ability of Big Men/Women to do stuff.
But it's supposed to be unfair. Being good at grappling is really that good. We know now, that one thing will dominate every other person in real life. Grappling wins fights. Against everyone. Unless you have knockout power, or amazing defense, we know that in real life, if someone as strong as you has grappling knowledge, they will beat you in a fight. Now give that person magical power, strength that's beyond human, and put them in armor? Just control alt delete whatever plans you might have had.

It's supposed to be that way.

Big men, with knowledge and strength can do all sorts of crazy things. And in a world, where with one action, a spell caster can paralyze an opponent from range, nerfing the one god given ability of a melee user who has to close in and get close to do their grapple thing is in my opinion misguided.

But mechanically, you have ways around it.

• If the target being grappled is moved out of grapple range then the grapple just ends
• That means with a shove, forced movement or etc you can stop grapples from happening
• Literally beat the crap out of the grappler - If they are grappling, they aren't doing damage - So hit them while they hang out
• You gotta have more than one enemy. Run multiple creatures so they can help out.
• And unfortunately, if a guy is all by himself, well the grappler is gonna win that fight. That's just how it goes.

This is an ability that a player invested in, spent part of his build to be able to do. Let them do it. There are so many other things that are busted in 5e, dont' worry about the one thing melee guys can do that basically stomps players. Here are some other things, per PHB 195 top right corner that an expertise athletics guy can do to an enemy.

• Opposed Athletics to strip the weapon from an opponent
• Opposed athletics to Trip
• Opposed Acrobatics versus whatever to feint
• Sleight of hand to disguise a weapon attack
• Target actual armor and arms to break equipment
• Hell - Fancy spell book, Athletics to grab the item and yeet it away

If the player can imagine it, and it has basis in reality, they can do it. And as the Forums already have made clear, that spell casters are way better than non spell casters, I don't think nerfing a character strategy that does work, is a good idea.

[Enderasha]

It's less of an issue with NPC's though most rogue-ish or caster-ish NPC's typically don't have Athletics. If the enemy is anything other than an actual NPC with class levels it has multiattack. Per the rules any enemy with multiattack cannot sub in a grapple or shove in place of an attack this is purely a thing players can do since they utilize the standard attack action.

[Unoriginal]

It's less of an issue with NPC's though most rogue-ish or caster-ish NPC's typically don't have Athletics.

If a squishy wizard type gets in a position where they get grappled, it should be bad for them, IMO. Rogue-ish NPCs can use DEX and Acrobatics to escape grapple.

If the enemy is anything other than an actual NPC with class levels it has multiattack. Per the rules any enemy with multiattack cannot sub in a grapple or shove in place of an attack this is purely a thing players can do since they utilize the standard attack action.

Or you could give the NPC a grapple move they can use as part of their Multiattack. Or ignore the rules that say you cannot use a grapple or shove as part of a Multiattack.

[Enderasha]

This is an ability that a player invested in, spent part of his build to be able to do. Let them do it. There are so many other things that are busted in 5e, dont' worry about the one thing melee guys can do that basically stomps players. Here are some other things, per PHB 195 top right corner that an expertise athletics guy can do to an enemy.

I'm not sure that is correct. The investment is actually fairly low. Any method of gaining advantage or expertise is all you really need if you're strength based. The way the game works you don't even need a single feat or special investment. The grapple=>shove does everything the grapple feat with easier action economy of the part of the player.

Even in a fight with multiple enemies the odds of a minion or additional enemy winning that contested roll is extremely low. I like grappling working and I think it's a fun and interesting tactic I'm just not sure whether it works as intended with minimal investment. I made a mistake of having a fight with a sacrificial pit and a number of enemies in the combat. The grappler just picked up two at a time and dragged them over to the pit. Not a single enemy won against his +8 athletics roll with advantage.

Maybe I just need to learn to design encounters better but it just seems crappy for me to specifically set fights up to ensure this tactic or throwing my dudes off a cliff or to shut down the main bad guy completely while the party mops up the minions doesn't happen.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe I just need to learn to design encounters better but it just seems crappy for me to specifically set fights up to ensure this tactic or throwing my dudes off a cliff or to shut down the main bad guy completely while the party mops up the minions doesn't happen.

So setting up the fight for this to not happen seems crappy to you, but setting the rules for this to not happen is fine by you?

[BoutsofInsanity]

I'm not sure that is correct. The investment is actually fairly low. Any method of gaining advantage or expertise is all you really need if you're strength based. The way the game works you don't even need a single feat or special investment. The grapple=>shove does everything the grapple feat with easier action economy of the part of the player.

Even in a fight with multiple enemies the odds of a minion or additional enemy winning that contested roll is extremely low. I like grappling working and I think it's a fun and interesting tactic I'm just not sure whether it works as intended with minimal investment. I made a mistake of having a fight with a sacrificial pit and a number of enemies in the combat. The grappler just picked up two at a time and dragged them over to the pit. Not a single enemy won against his +8 athletics roll with advantage.

Maybe I just need to learn to design encounters better but it just seems crappy for me to specifically set fights up to ensure this tactic or throwing my dudes off a cliff or to shut down the main bad guy completely while the party mops up the minions doesn't happen.

DUDE THATS AWESOME THOUGH. I bet the player felt so freaking cool. I mean, that's exactly how it should work!


And don't design around it. Don't do that at all. Just design the encounter. And if the grappling works out, it works out. If it doesn't it doesnt. They can't do it to creatures larger than large, and they can't really do it to more than one or two creatures at a time. And remember, being grappled only stops you from moving, it doesn't do anything to attacks. That's if they are shoved prone. Which takes an additional attack.

I would level up your GMing is where I would start. It's time to go to the next level. A couple of things.

• If the main bad guy get's grabbed, the main bad guy made a mistake, you didn't make a mistake.
• Your grappling guy? He can be targeted. Do that.
• If he is grappling, he aint attacking - Big trade offs there
• You can use acrobatics to escape, so don't forget that
• Any forced movement or stuns or anything can break grapples
• Use a variety of enemies to win, you have guys in the front to stop your big man from doing big man things. Pawns are sacrifices of course. Then shoot him from range.

You can do it. Don't let this part get you down. You didn't fail. Sometimes, things just work. I've had over many years had many an encounter just implode from...

• Force cage
• 600 foot assassinate sniper shot
• Counterspell
• The Darkness Spell vs. Undead Beholder
• Healing word
• Paladin tanked 7 Beholder rays in a row
• Freaking Expertise bard in charisma checks and deception
• Base Passive Perception of 26

It happens and the players feel good and you just roll on with the punches and enjoy their revelry.

[Enderasha]

So setting up the fight for this to not happen seems crappy to you, but setting the rules for this to not happen is fine by you?

To be clear I'm not trying to come off this way. I understand martials are at a disadvantage typically compared to casters and that doing anything to weaken them is kind of rough. I also play with heavily optimized players so maybe that can kind of push things a bit further and test my mettle as a DM. The weight restriction for dragging opponents was more me trying to wrap my head around a character forcefully dragging something that weighs twelve times as much of it that is likely just as strong as they are. Maybe it's a bit to much physics for D&D. The grapple shove versus grapple pin was more just not understanding why the feats and perks to make grappling better typically suck and what you can do for free is definitively better. I like the idea of people investing in a play style and it seems more interesting to make grappler much better and move improved grappling stuff there.

DUDE THATS AWESOME THOUGH. I bet the player felt so freaking cool. I mean, that's exactly how it should work!


And don't design around it. Don't do that at all. Just design the encounter. And if the grappling works out, it works out. If it doesn't it doesnt. They can't do it to creatures larger than large, and they can't really do it to more than one or two creatures at a time. And remember, being grappled only stops you from moving, it doesn't do anything to attacks. That's if they are shoved prone. Which takes an additional attack.

I would level up your GMing is where I would start. It's time to go to the next level. A couple of things.

If the main bad guy get's grabbed, the main bad guy made a mistake, you didn't make a mistake.
Your grappling guy? He can be targeted. Do that.
If he is grappling, he aint attacking - Big trade offs there
You can use acrobatics to escape, so don't forget that
Any forced movement or stuns or anything can break grapples
Use a variety of enemies to win, you have guys in the front to stop your big man from doing big man things. Pawns are sacrifices of course. Then shoot him from range.



You can do it. Don't let this part get you down. You didn't fail. Sometimes, things just work. I've had over many years had many an encounter just implode from...
Force cage
600 foot assassinate sniper shot
Counterspell
The Darkness Spell vs. Undead Beholder
Healing word
Paladin tanked 7 Beholder rays in a row
Freaking Expertise bard in charisma checks and deception
Base Passive Perception of 26


It happens and the players feel good and you just roll on with the punches and enjoy their revelry.

I will always be my players biggest cheerleader. I love my players for the few games I run and I always appreciate narrative, RP, experience, and awesome player fist pumping cool moments over everything else. I'm not even a bloodthirsty DM but I'm always trying to balance encounters on the line between challenging and too difficult and they really can swing wildly one way or the other.

I get frustrated with myself when an encounter with really cool mechanics gets trivialized (or vice versa a trash mob fight turns near lethal due to ****ty rolls) which leads to an anticlimactic moment for the players. Hell when my players fought a Djinn Assassin which had magic resistance, intended to be a miniboss, it rolled a 1 and a 2 on its very good Charisma save against the banish and that was the end of that. I wasn't mad, they were elated. The grappling thing just came up in a number of fights since not EVERY fight can be designed to counter it, and really downgraded their difficulty. Statistically, even with minions or a troupe of monsters, the odds of the extra creatures being able to help break the grapple was very low so they would give up their entire multi attack for nothing more often than not. I did have them try.

The other rule I wasn't sure of was how does grappling a friend in a grapple work. If your ally is grappled can you grapple your ally and simply pull them out of the grapple? If you are a wizard with strength 8 and your friend the wizard with strength 8 is in a bear hug with a giant can you, if you win a grapple check with your friend, pull them out with no resistance? I think RAW the grappler has no say in the matter. It seems like an odd thing. Using this for enemies if you have a main bad guy and a bunch of adds, if they statistically have almost no shot of beating the PC can they just grapple the big bad and pull?

[BoutsofInsanity]

I get frustrated with myself when an encounter with really cool mechanics gets trivialized (or vice versa a trash mob fight turns near lethal due to ****ty rolls) which leads to an anticlimactic moment for the players. Hell when my players fought a Djinn Assassin which had magic resistance, intended to be a miniboss, it rolled a 1 and a 2 on its very good Charisma save against the banish and that was the end of that. I wasn't mad, they were elated. The grappling thing just came up in a number of fights since not EVERY fight can be designed to counter it, and really downgraded their difficulty. Statistically, even with minions or a troupe of monsters, the odds of the extra creatures being able to help break the grapple was very low so they would give up their entire multi attack for nothing more often than not. I did have them try.

The other rule I wasn't sure of was how does grappling a friend in a grapple work. If your ally is grappled can you grapple your ally and simply pull them out of the grapple? If you are a wizard with strength 8 and your friend the wizard with strength 8 is in a bear hug with a giant can you, if you win a grapple check with your friend, pull them out with no resistance? I think RAW the grappler has no say in the matter. It seems like an odd thing. Using this for enemies if you have a main bad guy and a bunch of adds, if they statistically have almost no shot of beating the PC can they just grapple the big bad and pull?

Ill start with answering your question because that's easier.

Short answer is no. Now there isn't a specific rule for this. So you have to adjudicate. But again page 195 of the PHB tells you how.

Turn 1
Giant grabs wizard (Opposed Athletics v Acrobatics)

Wizard on his initiative attempts to escape grapple and fails.

Barbarian Rushes in and attempts to free the Wizard. Contest of skill with Giant over who has grapple control over Wizard. - Barbarian replaces one of his attacks to opposes Athletics to Giant's Athletics to free the Wizard. Fails, attempts with second attack and succeeds. --> This could also just be the "Escape Grapple Action" but used by the Barbarian in place of the Wizard. Either way works fine but, I would use the attack replacements instead of the Action as it's less punishing and more dynamic.

Picture the barbarian running up and Wrestling with the Hand. Screaming his rage to free his arcane friend, dramatically grabbing the hand and thumb leveraging all his awesome strength against a Giant's powerful might. Freaking cool.

Barbarian attempts to run away from the Giant dragging the Wizard, Giant opportunity attacks. Etc.

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That's how I would handle your scenario if necessary.


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For your first part. That frustration is part and parcel with the game unfortunately. As the DM I've felt it plenty of times. The trick is to up the encounter difficulty without upping it's complexity. Using tactics and knowing that you have a beast of an isolating tank means you should keep that in mind.

Barbarians are tough to DM for. They are hard hitting and tough to threaten with rages. You need to look up 4e monster manuals. Think about your monsters in the following away

• Brutes - Tough disruptive - They are in the front with lower AC and higher hp with a decent damage output. They aren't very maneuverable.
• Soldiers - Strong defenses lower damage - More tactical they defends high priority targets
• Skirmishers - High Damage and High Mobility - These guys rush around the sides and attack the back line. They are weak to damage but deal high damage or debilitating effects
• Leaders - These guys are your supports. They buff their allies and are average in HP/AC/Damage
• Controllers - Weak in HP and Damage they debuff the Players
• Minions - Cannon fodder. They are still dangerous but typically die in one to two hits. Do moderate damage. They are way more dangerous with all the above support.

By having roughly 30 to 50% more units on the field then you do with players you won't have to deal with lower rolls affecting your outcomes because on average you will have more things that don't depend on one thing going right.

Your Grappler might be able to rush down the leader and smash him. While he is doing that the Flanker's and Brutes just rushed the Backline and made your wizard wet himself when he took 4d6 sneak attack damage. The Grappler can only be so many places. Use that to your advantage.