A Critical Flaw in the Tippyverse

[Silly Name]

The GM can make whatever decisions they want to make the story fun. Personally, I don't think "sudden nuclear war!" is a very fun campaign for Tippyverse.

It's not like apocalypse is inevitable either for Tippyverse. Remember, Tippyverse is not "Mindrape everyone lolol." Implying there is some degree of decency in there.
I would think decent people would ally with other decent people eventually.

And yes, ALL solutions can be overcome peacefully at those levels, if only because people realize that there is literally no point to fighting amongst each other (put those 20+ ints to work, people!) due to resources being plentiful and the very real possibility that any major war will result in a slowly cooling debris field where the planet once was.

Doesn't the Tippyverse sorta imply a post-scarcity society? I don't think that, based on those premises, a campaign in the Tippyverse is particularly fun. Or even exists: there are no problems to solve, especially if we assume we end up with a society where rationality and moral principles end up prevailing.

If anything, such a world should act as the Confederacy in Star Trek: ok, we've achieved global peace and every single person has their every need and want meet at zero cost and with no harm to others. So now we look to space/other worlds/dimensions/whatever to explore and discover because that is where interesting things and conflict can happen. Which means the Confederacy/Tippyverse is just a background element that explains why and how the protagonists are travelling across space.

[Destro2119]

Exactly this idea basically. I think this sort of spacefaring civilization would be far more interesting than "lol apocaplyses destroy tippyverse."

Heck, as lead up to this campaign you could have a campaign revolving around defusing the "cold wars".

Which BTW are not INEVITABLE, otherwise very few of us would be here today.

And besides in Tippyverse places have little need to attack anyways due to 99% resource independency.

But maybe an "alien spaceship crash" is a good impetus for a world government anyways.

PS: I made a new thread on just this campiagn topic!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...8#post25004998

[liquidformat]

Exactly this idea basically. I think this sort of spacefaring civilization would be far more interesting than "lol apocaplyses destroy tippyverse."

Heck, as lead up to this campaign you could have a campaign revolving around defusing the "cold wars".

Which BTW are not INEVITABLE, otherwise very few of us would be here today.

And besides in Tippyverse places have little need to attack anyways due to 99% resource independency.

But maybe an "alien spaceship crash" is a good impetus for a world government anyways.

PS: I made a new thread on just this campiagn topic!

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...8#post25004998

Where did I say anything like "lol apocaplyses destroy tippyverse." or that apocalypse is INEVITABLE? Heck even Tippy gave apocalypse as one of the three outcomes of the base premise I just believe it has more weight than Tippy believes it to. But that also really depends on what people are fighting over.

The show altered carbon is decent example of the chaos in a tippyverse type of setting. You have an elite population that have effectively achieved immortality and while the elites could strive for equality they don't because its a more selfish capitalistic society. So you end up with poor rebelling because of inequality and a separate group rebelling because they believe immortality is wrong. I could easily see a powerful and devoted group of druids and their supporters rebelling against a tippyverse society not because of scarcity but because they are disgusted with a bastardization of nature. Heck in a lot of setting that is pretty much the idea behind most druids...

[Destro2119]

Where did I say anything like "lol apocaplyses destroy tippyverse." or that apocalypse is INEVITABLE? Heck even Tippy gave apocalypse as one of the three outcomes of the base premise I just believe it has more weight than Tippy believes it to. But that also really depends on what people are fighting over.

The show altered carbon is decent example of the chaos in a tippyverse type of setting. You have an elite population that have effectively achieved immortality and while the elites could strive for equality they don't because its a more selfish capitalistic society. So you end up with poor rebelling because of inequality and a separate group rebelling because they believe immortality is wrong. I could easily see a powerful and devoted group of druids and their supporters rebelling against a tippyverse society not because of scarcity but because they are disgusted with a bastardization of nature. Heck in a lot of setting that is pretty much the idea behind most druids...

Yes, but I personally think campaigns to stop apocalai and advance society are cooler than "yep the apocalypse happened. Better get to playing normal DnD again!"

To each their own.

[icefractal]

I feel like a "rolling apocalypse" is the most natural for D&D settings, as there are a lot of ways to achieve highly advanced empires and also a lot of ways to destroy them.

So at a given time, some places are just starting their path to Tippyverse status, some are already there, some are collapsing, some are hazardous ruins, and some are small villages rebuilding from the last collapse.

This provides a source for those highly-stocked dungeons (ruins from a Tippy-stage empire that could mass produce magic), and a range of places to go depending on how much civilization you're looking for.

And I wouldn't say that the collapse is inevitable, just that it's happened to most of the empires that have come before. So preventing that is a possible goal.

[Clistenes]

Well, if the Tippyverse can be created, but it is relatively easy to destroy, that would explain why most D&D worlds don't go magitech and remain pre-industrial economies... after a few failures, powerful spellcasters give up on creating a post-scarcity world and either retreat to heavily defended, hidden demiplanes where they create their private paradises and perfect cities, or they stay in their world and try to help people with their magic without creating magitech-based states...

That would create a fatalistic mindset among the population, who would try to live day to day, in the present, without really trying to improve their world. Religion would fill the void, and people would focus on the afterlife and on messianic prophecies. Villains would mostly be of the "loot everything I can and take it to my den" rather than the "try to create my own empire" type...

You know, if you accept that the Tippyverse is easy to destroy you end with a world that isn't so different from your vanilla D&D pre-industrial pseudo-feudal world...

[Heliomance]

I'm currently running a game in a post-Tippyverse. Backstory is that the cold war state was broken when someone discovered epic magic, global thaumonuclear war broke out, until the fabric of reality was threatened to the point that Mechanus invaded and bombed the Prime back to the stone age, pretty much eradicating magic. Some centuries later, magic is just starting to leak back into the world, and the PCs are exploring the ruins of the ancient cities trying to work out what happened.

[Melcar]

I'm currently running a game in a post-Tippyverse. Backstory is that the cold war state was broken when someone discovered epic magic, global thaumonuclear war broke out, until the fabric of reality was threatened to the point that Mechanus invaded and bombed the Prime back to the stone age, pretty much eradicating magic. Some centuries later, magic is just starting to leak back into the world, and the PCs are exploring the ruins of the ancient cities trying to work out what happened.

Not even sure that makes any sense... The first person to gain access to epic magic (and assuming the rules are being run as RAW) could not in any situation ever be threatened again! Full stop! The rules makes it so, that any epic spell can be made instantaneously, at zero cost at Spellcraft DC 0. So epic magic makes anyone who has access to it basically immune to all... because that is actually a permanent spell you could create with the epic spell rules... so you can't nuke others who have access to epic magic, because well they are immune. There is really no MAD to consider, because you cannot be destroyed yourself ever after gaining access to it. At this level of play, there are no threats bar Lady of Pain or AO or some other cosmic entity, which has immunity piercing abilities. And even then, your contingencies would probably prevent even one such as AO or LoP from really hurting you.

I'm not trying to say your idea is bad, I'm simple saying apply the rules as written logically (as is somewhat the intent of Tippyverse as I understand it) and the worlds becomes a place where literally everyone has access to magic and unlimited money. No one works, because everything is created magically. There are no farming, no hunger, no drought, no war, no suffering... its just. Dial up a zodar, wish it to be done, or pay someone with your unlimited wealth! And this is not the work of high level arch mages, but level 1 commoners with UMD optimized just a bit...

[InvisibleBison]

Not even sure that makes any sense... The first person to gain access to epic magic (and assuming the rules are being run as RAW) could not in any situation ever be threatened again! Full stop! The rules makes it so, that any epic spell can be made instantaneously, at zero cost at Spellcraft DC 0.

That's not necessarily true. RAW, all epic spells require DM approval. In online discussions, we tend to assume that DMs will approve anything that isn't in violation of the rules, but that's just a convenience to make discussions possible. Actual games are under no obligation to make that assumption. In their game, an actual DM can forbid all DC 0 epic spells, or all epic spells that mitigate the DC by more than 50%, or whatever else they desire, without stepping outside of RAW in the slightest.

[Melcar]

That's not necessarily true. RAW, all epic spells require DM approval. In online discussions, we tend to assume that DMs will approve anything that isn't in violation of the rules, but that's just a convenience to make discussions possible. Actual games are under no obligation to make that assumption. In their game, an actual DM can forbid all DC 0 epic spells, or all epic spells that mitigate the DC by more than 50%, or whatever else they desire, without stepping outside of RAW in the slightest.

RAW, everything require DM approval... whats your point?

Sorry, but are you not just stating the obvious...? That this TO discussion has very little to do with most actual games? I don't mean to offend, but I don't understand what point your trying to make... This is an online discussion, where we do explicitly assume DM will approve the rules as is, because if we don't, "ask your DM" would be the sole answer to every question here...

[icefractal]

"DC 0 means instantaneous" is not entirely unambiguous. For magic items, 0-level spells mean half the cost of a 1st level spell, not zero.

And given as epic spells have the same GM-approval stance as custom magic items, I don't feel like "DC 0 spells exist and everyone instantly learns all of them" is any more of a thing to rely on than "use activated True Strike item, 2000 gp, why does anyone think AC matters?"

[Clistenes]

Epic Magic changes everything. At that point you basically are roleplaying a deity, not an adventurer...

Tippyverse settings are based on non-Epic magic, because once you go Epic... well anything goes .. you aren't just feeding people with your magic, you are reincarnating them as Titans or whatever you want...

[Destro2119]

TBH, while "rolling apocalai" might be a thing, I am more interested in TPverse campaigns that would actually focus on the events that happen in the Tippyverse. Preventing the "cycle of rolling apocalai" would be a good campaign for me.

[InvisibleBison]

RAW, everything require DM approval... whats your point?

Sorry, but are you not just stating the obvious...? That this TO discussion has very little to do with most actual games? I don't mean to offend, but I don't understand what point your trying to make... This is an online discussion, where we do explicitly assume DM will approve the rules as is, because if we don't, "ask your DM" would be the sole answer to every question here...

You said that Heliomance's game's backstory didn't make sense, because anyone who has epic magic is immune to everything. My point is that statement is only correct if the DM chooses to allow it to be correct, and it is absurd to think that Heliomance would apply the rules in a way that prevented the game she wanted to run from being possible.

[liquidformat]

Not even sure that makes any sense... The first person to gain access to epic magic (and assuming the rules are being run as RAW) could not in any situation ever be threatened again! Full stop! The rules makes it so, that any epic spell can be made instantaneously, at zero cost at Spellcraft DC 0. So epic magic makes anyone who has access to it basically immune to all... because that is actually a permanent spell you could create with the epic spell rules... so you can't nuke others who have access to epic magic, because well they are immune. There is really no MAD to consider, because you cannot be destroyed yourself ever after gaining access to it. At this level of play, there are no threats bar Lady of Pain or AO or some other cosmic entity, which has immunity piercing abilities. And even then, your contingencies would probably prevent even one such as AO or LoP from really hurting you.

I'm not trying to say your idea is bad, I'm simple saying apply the rules as written logically (as is somewhat the intent of Tippyverse as I understand it) and the worlds becomes a place where literally everyone has access to magic and unlimited money. No one works, because everything is created magically. There are no farming, no hunger, no drought, no war, no suffering... its just. Dial up a zodar, wish it to be done, or pay someone with your unlimited wealth! And this is not the work of high level arch mages, but level 1 commoners with UMD optimized just a bit...

Most if not all settings have gods which are by definition epic spellcasters and it seems to be in their benefit to not allow anyone else to become a epic level character as any epic level character could potentially infringe upon their domain of power. Therefore why would the gods ever allow anyone to become epic? For that matter, gods want followers and it is in their benefit to not allow any society to get to post scarcity level as people don't really need gods post scarcity after all what is the point of a god in a society where you are immortal and have need for nothing? So why wouldn't the gods just nuke any society that gets too close to post scarcity to keep their worshipers in their place?...

[Destro2119]

Uhhh, maybe the gods can be the ones who help them to get to Post-Scarcity in the first place?

I mean, in Starfinder the god of tech literally gives people FTL. I can't really picture a situation in which the people just forget about gods. In TP verse, clerics and churches would be extremely powerful due to healing alone.

I mean, gods are typically so far above mortals that anything they can do offensively can't even really affect them.

They have probably just coded in defenses for themselves that prevents epic magic from working on them.

[liquidformat]

Uhhh, maybe the gods can be the ones who help them to get to Post-Scarcity in the first place?

I mean, in Starfinder the god of tech literally gives people FTL. I can't really picture a situation in which the people just forget about gods. In TP verse, clerics and churches would be extremely powerful due to healing alone.

I mean, gods are typically so far above mortals that anything they can do offensively can't even really affect them.

They have probably just coded in defenses for themselves that prevents epic magic from working on them.

I am sorry but no you can't. You can either have gods and 'cycle of rolling apocalai' or you can have tippyverse; they are mutually exclusive choices.

If you have gods then you have all the gods and if you have all the gods you are always going to have a very good reason for wars since there are gods with the mission of destroying other gods. As long as you have gods and keep the faith the eternal war for mortals' souls will continue to go on and mortals will have a 'valid' reason to go about attacks of mutual destruction.

Also since when do clerics need the gods, the gods just get in the way of optimization since they restrict your domain choice and clerics function just fine without any choosing any god.
OT is what Tippyverse is all about and gods just get in the way of that.

[Destro2119]

Well yeah, in TPverse by canon all gods are essentially just overdeities who don't even really do anything.

In a setting like Golarion or PFverse, you would probably have gods just subtly nudging people away from infinite magic traps (which BTW do exist in canon in that game's universe) and more towards a progression we IRL would find to be more sane.

[Heliomance]

Not even sure that makes any sense... The first person to gain access to epic magic (and assuming the rules are being run as RAW) could not in any situation ever be threatened again! Full stop! The rules makes it so, that any epic spell can be made instantaneously, at zero cost at Spellcraft DC 0. So epic magic makes anyone who has access to it basically immune to all... because that is actually a permanent spell you could create with the epic spell rules... so you can't nuke others who have access to epic magic, because well they are immune. There is really no MAD to consider, because you cannot be destroyed yourself ever after gaining access to it. At this level of play, there are no threats bar Lady of Pain or AO or some other cosmic entity, which has immunity piercing abilities.

I'm not seeing how that negates my campaign backstory, tbh. I didn't say the Epic casters were able to hurt each other, I said their attempts to were threatening the very fabric of reality - so the whole of Mechanus came down like a hammer. Primus Himself absolutely counts as "some other cosmic entity".

[Destro2119]

On the topic of "epic magic", I'm more on with the whole concept being more plot events that allow things like terraforming a planet/reanimating all undead.

I'm ok with like offensive blast epic spells that are basically War Spells but faster but I'll agree that truly cheese things like trying to rewrite the rules of the game to force AoOs or something is something that will be shut down.

[Clistenes]

Do you guys know about some good threads about how to implement the Tippyverse in 5e?

I'm looking for inspiration for a 5e post-scarcity Magocracy...

[Silly Name]

Do you guys know about some good threads about how to implement the Tippyverse in 5e?

I'm looking for inspiration for a 5e post-scarcity Magocracy...

A lot of the things that are used in the Tippyverse don't exist in 5e. It's certainly possible to make something similiar, but the different rules will produce different results.

I'd start by seeking out Simulacrum/Wish loops that can produce infinite wealth.

[Clistenes]

A lot of the things that are used in the Tippyverse don't exist in 5e. It's certainly possible to make something similiar, but the different rules will produce different results.

Yep. That's the reason I am asking... I'm not sure how to do it...

Fabricate and Teleportation Circles are still a thing, so high level Wizards could still dominate the market, it just would take longer to achieve...

The fact that crafting rules don't require to spend xp, only work, time and resources would help, though... they could industrialize magic and create factories that churn low level magic items...

Also, according to Waterdeep Heist, apparently Constructs can create more Constructs using relatively simple resources, so we could have 1.-Fully automated factories, and 2.-Star Wars style droids everywhere...

[Schadenfreuda]

To address the original question of the thread:

Telportation Circle Is something of a red herring as far as Tippyverse dynamics go. Create a Gate into a private Demiplane (or any other plane) and another back out again and make the Gates permanent, and you can connect two cities with railroads or (very narrow) ship canals. However it's accomplished mechanically, the existence of easy teleportation magic means that all civilisations will naturally concentrate all their wealth and power into small and highly-defensible locations, just like how normal civilisations traditionally hid their cities and wealth behind walls. The existence of magic means that these cities will all-but-inevitably become self-contained post-scarcity arcologies ruled by mages (since no one can arrest or control a high-level mage if they aren't also a mage), though the details certainly will vary, but the concentration of wealth and power in magically-defensible cities is certain.

For that matter, the fact that Gate exists means that Tippyverse-style city-states will also become the dominant settlement pattern everywhere in their multiverse, not just on their home plane, because nothing about the other planes change the fundamental dynamic of teleportation magic and the need to defend against it and to a high-level mage or priest the difference between various planes is fairly academic.

How EmperorTippy described his world, the details I often disagree with, but the basic premise is sound if high-level mages exist the way the game rules describe.

[Zombulian]

I'm currently running a game in a post-Tippyverse. Backstory is that the cold war state was broken when someone discovered epic magic, global thaumonuclear war broke out, until the fabric of reality was threatened to the point that Mechanus invaded and bombed the Prime back to the stone age, pretty much eradicating magic. Some centuries later, magic is just starting to leak back into the world, and the PCs are exploring the ruins of the ancient cities trying to work out what happened.

I'm running a very similar game!

[rel]

It's worth reiterating that a setting with no tippyverse style vaults, a setting in the golden age of tippy and a setting where the great cities have fallen to the inexorable march of time can very plausibly look identical to the players until they hit very high levels and go looking for high level towns to sell their spare artifacts and commission the construction of new ones.