OOTS #1228 - The Discussion Thread

[LoRdofCookIES]

I think Serini is going to be a fantastic character! Can't wait for more of her.

Also, she may not know what happened in the Godsmoot, but she does know (or can easily assume) that if the gate is destroyed the Snarl will be freed and destroy the world.

[bunsen_h]

Tnr gold on "Serini knows some things through the Oracle".

That would be my guess. "What was the name and allegiance of the person who was most directly responsible for destroying Soon's gate? What tool or method did they use to destroy Soon's gate?"

Another possibility is that this isn't the first time that Serini has had this conversation with the paladins, but they've forgotten about the earlier run-through(s).

[Riftwolf]

Oh snap! Looks like Serini could see the Gates when they were destroyed! Looks like the Order of the Stick aren't gonna be in Serini's best books, and one of my crazy theories is proved 3/4 right!

[danielxcutter]

If you think about it, Serini's probably the best Scribbler to appear without overshadowing the OotS; Soon or Kraagor could probably do as much damage, each, as any three members of the Order and don't even get me started on the casters.

[vonBoomslang]

How I expect the following conversation to go, paraphrased.

"You... you were scrying on us?"
"Shyeah of course I was!"
"But you all swore an oath not to interfere in one another's gate?"
"Ha! Did you seriously expect we'd be so wildly irresponsible to not... keep an eye on..... oh gods, you did."

[Storm_Of_Snow]

The throne room is protected from scrying. Remember even Xykon couldn't see into the room.

Xykon's Tee-vo couldn't scry into the throne room, but Eugene's "Epic Inside" scrying cloud could cut through Dorukan's Cloister effect when Xykon casts it. There's also the board that shows the state of the gates - second panel here https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html, which presumably needs to get around the scry block.

Maybe it's something Girard worked on and gave to Serini as she was the one he trusted most
(and potentially either forked the scry result to himself, or kept even more powerful things for himself and the rest of his family) - or maybe Girard's also at least partially responsible for the defences of Monster Hollow.

Or as said, perhaps Serini scryed on the surviving members of the Sapphire Guard and picked up O-Chul's mention that it was his katana that destroyed the gate.

[danielxcutter]

Xykon's Tee-vo couldn't scry into the throne room, but Eugene's "Epic Inside" scrying cloud could cut through Dorukan's Cloister effect when Xykon casts it. There's also the board that shows the state of the gates - second panel here https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html, which presumably needs to get around the scry block.

Maybe it's something Girard worked on and gave to Serini as she was the one he trusted most
(and potentially either forked the scry result to himself, or kept even more powerful things for himself and the rest of his family) - or maybe Girard's also at least partially responsible for the defences of Monster Hollow.

Or as said, perhaps Serini scryed on the surviving members of the Sapphire Guard and picked up O-Chul's mention that it was his katana that destroyed the gate.

Those clouds are likely powered by the plane of Celestia itself; they're not a terribly good indicator of how much of a punch most divinations pack.

[Lord Raziere]

Its possible that Serini is just using her rogue's insanely high Sense Motive or something like that to get a read on O-Chul and what he is likely to do. lucky guess has nothing to do with it when your skill check bonus beats the DC all by itself and O-Chul is bad at lying. some people are just very good getting a read on others.

[Reboot]

Durkon/Vaarsuvius Sent to them just yesterday. They should know almost everything the Order knows.

"Crisis delayed. Durkon resurrected. En route to your location; arrival expected in two days. Please advise as to your present location; current status of Xykon."

That isn't the tail end of the message. That's the entire message, thanks to Sending's 25 word limit. Literally all they know about book 6 is that bad things were happening, and still might happen ("delayed" not "averted"), but Durkon is now not (un)dead any more at least. [And then they got captured and later messages from D/V bounced.]

[CountDVB]

What a schock that Serini had sensible reasons to capture the paladins and was not in fact evil.

Anyways this indicate that Serini will treat the Order much in the same way that she is treating Lien and O-Chul since they are responsible for the destruction of two gates.

True though unlike the Paladins, they'll be much tougher customers to deal with at least regarding arguments and so on. We don't know how much Serini knows regarding the circumstances of them.

However, this does make me wonder her plans, given her comments regarding the end of Utterly Dwarved on doing something and that it was fun existing, meaning that whatever her goals or plans are, it would likely see things undone or so on.

[GregTD]

I’d like to say maybe this will shut up arguements about Serini being evil but I’ve been here far too long to expect that, maybe it will slow down though.

She's not evil, she's worse than that: she's ignorant, and wrong.

It's often easier to work with evil, which at least has self interest you can appeal to.

Curing ignorance? When it's backed up by decades of carried grievance? That can be more challenging

Hmm, they aren't going to let Redcloak have control of the gate since he is the Dark One's servant. If Xykon took control of the gate and then backstabbed Redcloak so that he doesn't have to share power - Xykon is all about power - he'd be narratively consistent (he uses Redcloack, and abuses him, and will have no need for him once he has the gate). In that case, the Gods might not like the situation the Gate is in but the threat to them isn't of the same magnitude as Redcloak having the gate and thus the Dark One having control of it. (Redcloak's plan to back stab Xykon is pretty well established, aside from the the joke about 'you can't sneak attack a liche since it's undead ' ... which is one of D&D 3.5e's stupider rules ... )

Would somebody please remind me: what are the consequences of Xykon getting the gate vs. it being destroyed?

I think I recall the Snarl being freed/world being destroyed by the gates all breaking (and this is the last one), but I am unsure now what Xykon's goals with the Gates are.

So far as we know, Xykon's plan to use the Gate for world domination starts with casting a spell with Redcloak.

We do know that said spell will give the Dark One power over the Gate.

We do know the Gods will destroy the world and start things over again, rather than let the Dark One use it against them.

So if Xykon gets near to taking control over the final Gate, we expect that the Gods will have a new vote, and destroy the world, again.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I wonder if what we're seeing here is the result of an Epic level Gather Information check.

[understatement]

She's not scrying. It's just O-Chul's flashback, which is why he has the "uh oh" expression, along with Serini meta-riffing on paladin oaths afterward.

She does know a paladin must have destroyed the Azure City Gate, since a) only paladins know about it and b) Xykon wouldn't destroy it.

[fuschiawarrior]

However, this does make me wonder her plans, given her comments regarding the end of Utterly Dwarved on doing something and that it was fun existing, meaning that whatever her goals or plans are, it would likely see things undone or so on.

I think she was being bitter and sarcastic about their situation and whatever her plans are, they don't include stop existing and today strip pretty much confirm this. If she wanted to undone the world, she could have done it already as she knows where the Gate is and can destroy it.

[gbs5009]

I wonder if what we're seeing here is the result of an Epic level Gather Information check.

I can think of two possibilities that don't seem to have been considered yet.

One is that smashing the gate left some residual effect on O-Chul's sword that she's picked up on.

The other is that the green miasma given off by the potion triggers the amnesia effect without even drinking it, and Serini is benefiting from getting to do this interrogation on loop.

[Fyraltari]

She's not scrying. It's just O-Chul's flashback, which is why he has the "uh oh" expression, along with Serini meta-riffing on paladin oaths afterward.

She does know a paladin must have destroyed the Azure City Gate, since a) only paladins know about it and b) Xykon wouldn't destroy it.

I agree that she probably guessed that, along those lines however b) is wrong: Team Evil wouldn't intentionnally destroy a Gate but that didn't save Lirian's Gate.

[GregTD]

How will the gods destroy the world? Only one minor deity hasn't made their decision yet and he's not going to until the leaders of the Dwarf clan can find a big enough tree to kill and make a table out of. To do anything else means breaking a compact that has lasted for apparently billions of years.

A priest on the "don't destroy the world" side gets instructed by his / her God to commit suicide. That God is no longer represented, the God's vote no longer counts, the tie is ended.

Which means that that priest dies roughly 5 seconds before everyone else. Not a big loss.

You're not allowed to leave the Godsmoot if you're the God's representative. You're not allowed to attack another God's representative. But your bodyguard can attack you, so even if suicide is explicitly ruled out, the elimination can still happen

"Crisis delayed. Durkon resurrected. En route to your location; arrival expected in two days. Please advise as to your present location; current status of Xykon."

That isn't the tail end of the message. That's the entire message, thanks to Sending's 25 word limit. Literally all they know about book 6 is that bad things were happening, and still might happen ("delayed" not "averted"), but Durkon is now not (un)dead any more at least. [And then they got captured and later messages from D/V bounced.]

"Crisis delayed."

What crisis?

That would be the crisis V sent to them about in previous Sendings. You know, the crisis where the Gods are going to end all life on the prime material plane and start over again?

IMAO it's hard to find any reasonable behavior that leaves the Paladins not up to date on that problem

[SlashDash]

{scrubbed} that scene was not happening in the throne room.

Umm... Yes it was. The gate was literally in the throne of Azure City
They even mentioned the words "throne room" several times in the battle.

I feel like O-Chul is selling himself short here. He has most of Xykon's build figured out thanks to personal experience probably unmatched among any of the lich's enemies. Moreover, he's one of the people who Xykon (and probably Redcloak too) would drop everything to go after. Coupled with his durability, he's the ultimate decoy — that's the sort of thing that very likely could improve whatever plan Serini has cooked up to use against Xykon.

Let's not forget, O-Chul's friendship with the monster in the dark. O-Chul knows the monster is on their side since he saw the monster doing the trick with painting the doors.

So he could reasonably assume that the could get it to switch sides in a battle.

And Mr. Stiffly was under the Cloister effect, then. But she could be scrying, say, Hinjo.

No she couldn't since Hinjo doesn't know what really happened.

Remember Hinjo asked O-Chul if he destroyed the gate (forgot the strip number) and O-Chul said he thought about it and it was his sword that did it because he didn't want to tarnish Miko's reputation.

So scrying on Hinjo would net you a wrong story and her exact phrasing about "someone" using his personal katana is too on the nose to fit the story Hinjo believes.

[fuschiawarrior]

The Gods can destroy the world in a instant and the ritual casting time is like a week, if I'm remembering right. With this time frame They can find a way to finish the current vote and start another one without resorting to suicide (by the way can we stop using suicide as a solution to problems brought by the comic, please? If this makes Eugene, a fictional character, look callous, it certainly make a real person looks like a douche too)

[GregTD]

The Gods can destroy the world in a instant and the ritual casting time is like a week, if I'm remembering right. With this time frame They can find a way to finish the current vote and start another one without resorting to suicide (by the way can we stop using suicide as a solution to problems brought by the comic, please? If this makes Eugene, a fictional character, look callous, it certainly make a real person looks like a douche too)

There's a massive difference between "you commit suicide so everyone else can continue living" and "you commit suicide. The rest of us will be joining you in about 5 seconds."

We don't know all the Godsmoot rules. We don't know if there's rules about location being different, gap in between, etc.

We do know that a God's vote doesn't count if the God has no representative there.

So we can build long threads wanking about various ways they might be able to pull it off, burning electrons to absolutely no point, or we can point out that there's a very straightforward to change the vote.

People of sense do the later

[CountDVB]

She's not evil, she's worse than that: she's ignorant, and wrong.

It's often easier to work with evil, which at least has self interest you can appeal to.

Curing ignorance? When it's backed up by decades of carried grievance? That can be more challenging

So far as we know, Xykon's plan to use the Gate for world domination starts with casting a spell with Redcloak.

We do know that said spell will give the Dark One power over the Gate.

We do know the Gods will destroy the world and start things over again, rather than let the Dark One use it against them.

So if Xykon gets near to taking control over the final Gate, we expect that the Gods will have a new vote, and destroy the world, again.

Yeah, if Serini is making assumptions without knowing the whole story, that could lead to some serious trouble.

Meanwhile, we do't know how much Xykon knows on Redcloak yanking his chain and lying on it. He's prepared for it, but perhaps he thinks Redcloak still lacks the balls to make a move. However, we know Redcloak is willing to let the world be destroyed for a long shot so he doesn't own up to his mistakes. I'm reminded of how Xykon said he ripped his flesh off to avoid weakness; I wonder if Xykon would invoke being proud of Redcloak to shame him or to get under his goblin skin.

You're gonna destory the world than admit you screwed up? To avoid weakness? Heh, didn't think you had the balls, Redcloak. Finally you're in the big leagues now.

Heck, we don't even know if Redcloak or Dark One's plans will work, though they may be okay getting crushed out of existence if they take everyone else out of the way.

[Fyraltari]

Umm... Yes it was. The gate was literally in the throne of Azure City
They even mentioned the words "throne room" several times in the battle.

You can't tell because of the redtext but Stabbey is talking about the scene they linked to upthread where O-Chul fills Hinjo in about what happened in the throne room. More specifically that he made the choice to destroy Soon's Gate and that it was his blade that did the deed. That discussion did not happen in the throne room.

[Wraithfighter]

I don't think Seriri is entirely dead-set on mind-wiping O-chul and Lien, honestly. Either that or she's, well, an idiot.

Comparing destroying Gate 3 of 5 to destroying the only remaining Gate is kinda... well, not comparable? Roy's pretty firm on the "don't destroy the last gate" plan, and he's the guy that was going "we have to proactively destroy the second-to-last gate because we have no way to effectively defend it". And surely Serini would understand that getting rid of a failsafe when there's redundancies still in place isn't the same as removing the final protection.

Rather, I think she's smart and mentally flexible enough, based on everything we've seen, to realize that her odds of stopping Xykon, as infinitesimal as they are right now, go up with Team Paladin helping her, but only if they're willing to follow her lead and not, you know, blow up the world. She was probably spying on them for a while before she decided to capture them and, frankly, if she wanted to give them the Amnesia potion...

...why capture them in the first place? Xykon wasn't imminently about to find the Gate any moreso than he was a week or month earlier. She could brew the potion up, get a pair of vials ready, go over to them, knock them out, pour the potion down their throats, and take them far away. The only reason to capture them, and allow them to wake up, is to be able to talk to them and make sure that it's needed, or if they could be convinced to change their plans. Note also that she came across them maintaining discrete surveillance on a super-evil monster bent on world domination. If Paladins could be convinced to not fight the big bad, but watch and wait, then maybe they could be convinced to risk Xykon seizing the gate instead of destroying it.

Not that Serini's not willing to drug them and release them back into the wild, of course. Duh. But I also think that she wants to be convinced that its not the right call to make, which is why she's having this conversation in the first place.

[PontificatusRex]

I wonder how much of Serini's information is from the Sendings from the OotS that she never answered?

[Yirggzmb]

There's a massive difference between "you commit suicide so everyone else can continue living" and "you commit suicide. The rest of us will be joining you in about 5 seconds."

We don't know all the Godsmoot rules. We don't know if there's rules about location being different, gap in between, etc.

We do know that a God's vote doesn't count if the God has no representative there.

So we can build long threads wanki9ng about various ways they might be able to pull it off, burning electrons to absolutely no point, or we can point out that there's a very straightforward to change the vote.

People of sense do the later

I mean, I don't think the people still at the moot waiting are actually physically unable to leave (the Order left just fine). Just that they're under orders not to because of the rules. So even without the suicide option, the gods could probably just tell their cleric(s) to leave the premises. Just as simple, but less unfortunate implications for people to point out.

[Psyren]

Serini's insistence on not letting the paladins get anywhere near the gate suggests that she knows full well what will happen if the last one is destroyed, and is as in favor of "thinking safely inside the box" as the Order is.

There are ways within RAW to find what happened even without scrying. Most divinations that look into the past do not require a scrying censor after all. All Serini would really need is a scroll of Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore or Commune.

Heck she could even NOT know what happened but have any number of items that allow Detect Thoughts at will and thus have found out what happened from the paladins right in front of her.

Durkon/Vaarsuvius Sent to them just yesterday. They should know almost everything the Order knows.

OK, she's been scrying him, despite the fact that that was supposed to be impossible for the throne room. That's WAY too specific and covering the exact loophole that happened to be something she just made up on the spur of the moment.

Oh snap! Looks like Serini could see the Gates when they were destroyed! Looks like the Order of the Stick aren't gonna be in Serini's best books, and one of my crazy theories is proved 3/4 right!

@ all the: "how could she scry on the scry-proof throne room" - she's an epic rogue! She could have had a front-row seat to the whole battle and nobody would've known, Xykon and Redcloak included.

[The MunchKING]

@ all the: "how could she scry on the scry-proof throne room" - she's an epic rogue! She could have had a front-row seat to the whole battle and nobody would've known, Xykon and Redcloak included.

"Giant blast" says she better have O-chul's hitpoints, or only slightly less and troll regen if she wants to walk away from it. :p

[Fyraltari]

@ all the: "how could she scry on the scry-proof throne room" - she's an epic rogue! She could have had a front-row seat to the whole battle and nobody would've known, Xykon and Redcloak included.

And she didn't do anything to stop Team Evil?

[Psyren]

"Giant blast" says she better have O-chul's hitpoints, or only slightly less and troll regen if she wants to walk away from it. :p

Or, you know, Evasion

And she didn't do anything to stop Team Evil?

Epic rogue vs. epic sorcerer lich probably would not have ended the way you think it would. And Miko made that moot anyway.

[Yirggzmb]

And she didn't do anything to stop Team Evil?

But if she's scrying, would she even be able to do anything to affect the situation?