OOTS #1228 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogar Demonblud]

Let's take a step closer. What happens when she finds out that the random goblin lackey is The Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, High Priest of the Dark One and quite possibly low Epic by this point? That info will probably upset whatever calculations she's made and motivate her to change plans.

[arimareiji]

I don't think people are reading enough into why Serini is saying/doing what she is.

Spoiler: collapsed for space

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If she had any intention of giving them amnesia juice and sending them on their way, would she tell them? She'd say she was an ally, get all the information she could from the trusting paladins, and then feed it to them.

Instead, she's telling them she doesn't trust them and, aside from how on earth she knows the specifics of how Soon's gate was destroyed, is clearly baiting them into arguing their case for why they are trustworthy. Once they do this, she 'reluctantly' accepts their help, since a pair of mid-levelled paladins will absolutely not hurt against a lich. They'll mention the expected reinforcements, and then...

Speaking of which, though... I'm wondering which will happen first; the paladins telling her about OotS, or the ambush on Xykon. I doubt Serini wants them doing that ambush right now without all the support they can get. Just a few weeks ago, everyone was talking about how even with surprise and breaking up Team Evil, the Order barely stands a chance, but with an Epic rogue and a pair of paladins, that might turn out differently.

It might sound weird to say, but although I think this is a really good point I wandered my way to a different conclusion.

I agree: It deserves analysis, why is Serini talking to them so freely if she's just going to wipe their memory of the conversation? But I think the last couple of panels are crucial to understanding why. She's using an ESP potion to read O-Chul's surface thoughts, which is why she probes for him to start thinking about when the Gate was destroyed (then gets her answer, which she immediately tells us).

Maybe she's trying to find out whether she wants their help? But in the last few panels, she tells them in not-quite-so-many words that there's zero chance she can trust their judgment. Or maybe she's probing for information? As far as we can see on the surface, she's the one giving the information - although it's suspiciously well-timed to what we see O-Chul thinking about.

Which brings me to the different conclusion I reached: She was telling the truth, and she does plan to wipe their memory of the conversation afterward. That might change, but it's going to take something unexpected.
_{Edit: Minor refactor}

[Thermophille]

She was telling the truth, and she does plan to wipe their memory of the conversation afterward. That might change, but it's going to take something unexpected.
_{Edit: Minor refactor}

Serini is an admitted liar, though. I could've sword there's a quote somewhere in the comic about trusting admitted liars, but I can't place it.

Admittedly, the idea of using an ESP potion or something is probably the best explanation for how she knows that oddly specific factoid, but I can't help but feel that she's letting the paladins talk freely because she wants their help, but also wants to be convinced.

[Clearbridge]

Long time reader, first time commenting, but something is really bugging me.

Trolls and goblin have the same issue right? They're just seen as fodder to gain XP in this world. So RC and the goblinoids plans to change their status should be appealing to Trolls as well, why wouldn't they want to tag along? And we have an entire strip about how Selini is friend with the Trolls and even is partially one, I would be surprised if that isn't going to come into play. Basically the question is, sure, Selini doesn't want the gate to be destroyed, she doesn't want Xykon to win, but why wouldn't she support RC or at the very least his plan?

She protects the Gate, but maybe not for those we think, maybe she knows about the Dark One, maybe SHE is the one he talks to since he doesn't talk to RC. plus she seems pretty chaotic, which would fit, she has no allegiance I can think of, but she does have green friends.

She doesn't want the Gate destroyed, she wants to control it to better the status of her troll friends, using RC in the process. And if the world is rebooted to give them that new status, it would explain the "existing was fun while it lasted part", because why would she know what the DO ignores, aka that he may not make it into the next iteration? All in all, her behavior could well fit into that explanation...Thoughts? "Yes? No? Just spitballing here"

[Giggling Ghast]

Trolls and goblin have the same issue right? They're just seen as fodder to gain XP in this world. So RC and the goblinoids plans to change their status should be appealing to Trolls as well, why wouldn't they want to tag along?

Except the Dark One's focus is on bettering the lot of goblinoids, not the other monster races. This "blackmail the gods" scheme is going to be difficult enough to pull off without having to negotiate for better lands and more rights on behalf of kobolds, orcs, trolls, ogres, troglodytes, lizard men, etc.

Besides, trolls aren't low-level XP fodder like goblins. A troll is a significant threat to your average tiny village. They do as much pushing around as they do getting pushed..

[Thermophille]

Long time reader, first time commenting, but something is really bugging me.

Trolls and goblin have the same issue right? They're just seen as fodder to gain XP in this world. So RC and the goblinoids plans to change their status should be appealing to Trolls as well, why wouldn't they want to tag along? And we have an entire strip about how Selini is friend with the Trolls and even is partially one, I would be surprised if that isn't going to come into play. Basically the question is, sure, Selini doesn't want the gate to be destroyed, she doesn't want Xykon to win, but why wouldn't she support RC or at the very least his plan?

She protects the Gate, but maybe not for those we think, maybe she knows about the Dark One, maybe SHE is the one he talks to since he doesn't talk to RC. plus she seems pretty chaotic, which would fit, she has no allegiance I can think of, but she does have green friends.

She doesn't want the Gate destroyed, she wants to control it to better the status of her troll friends, using RC in the process. And if the world is rebooted to give them that new status, it would explain the "existing was fun while it lasted part", because why would she know what the DO ignores, aka that he may not make it into the next iteration? All in all, her behavior could well fit into that explanation...Thoughts? "Yes? No? Just spitballing here"

Unless red-voice is a troll, we don't currently have reason to believe that her relationship with trolls is any deeper than favor for a favor 80 years ago. Not that there isn't one, but there isn't any indication as of now.

As for whether she wants to use the ritual herself for pretty much the same reasons as Redcloack, I find that highly unlikely. If that were the case, she would have killed the paladins and the Order, to help Xykon and Redcloack succeed. In fact, she would have just led them to the Gate, since she would want the ritual performed in that scenario, and she would have used that help to bargain with the Dark One to extend his deal to other monstrous races in addition to goblins. I'm all for speculation, but there is a great deal of evidence against this theory.

[arimareiji]

Serini is an admitted liar, though. I could've sword there's a quote somewhere in the comic about trusting admitted liars, but I can't place it.

Admittedly, the idea of using an ESP potion or something is probably the best explanation for how she knows that oddly specific factoid, but I can't help but feel that she's letting the paladins talk freely because she wants their help, but also wants to be convinced.

Just my take, but I think Serini trolls/lies for lulz the same way Roy snarks for lulz. And I'd venture they come from the same place, mockery without malice.

Spoiler: collapsed for space

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Setting that aside, what's the best way to subvert expectations? Mix truth with lies, and a paladin will be floundering for which is which. "She told us she's going to wipe our memories, so there's no point in talking to us. But here she's not only talking to us but even [apparently] giving us information about how much she knows. Obviously I should keep talking with her in the hope of convincing her, even though she just all-but-explicitly-told me that she can't trust our judgment."

(I think it's admirable of O-Chul, and I think Serini's taking unfair advantage - but I definitely haven't switched to the Look At Serini Eating Crackers Like She Owns The Place crowd. I think she's doing the best she can to keep the universe from ending, not with a bang but an "Oops!", and I think she has excellent reason to believe so.)

[Thermophille]

Either way, I suspect that the real reason Serini is talking to the paladins will be delved into fully within the next 3 comics.

[Ruck]

Oh, I'm not confused. I'm just wondering why something that makes no difference to the discussion and is so minor generally is worth the pedantry. Do you also correct everyone's grammatical errors in their posts before replying to their content?

You're on a forum full of nerd fans of a comic strip based on a game with a complex and often byzantine set of rules. Of course people are pedantic about those rules and details.

Unless red-voice is a troll, we don't currently have reason to believe that her relationship with trolls is any deeper than favor for a favor 80 years ago. Not that there isn't one, but there isn't any indication as of now.

Where'd you get "80 years ago"?

On my previous readings of that page, I thought it indicated hesitation. Your interpretation hadn't occurred to me, but I think it makes more sense than my original read.

Peelee explained it better and in more detail than I did, so I didn't feel like I needed to get any further with mine. But yeah, I think it's a beat panel.

Long time reader, first time commenting, but something is really bugging me.

Spoiler: for length

Show

Trolls and goblin have the same issue right? They're just seen as fodder to gain XP in this world. So RC and the goblinoids plans to change their status should be appealing to Trolls as well, why wouldn't they want to tag along? And we have an entire strip about how Selini is friend with the Trolls and even is partially one, I would be surprised if that isn't going to come into play. Basically the question is, sure, Selini doesn't want the gate to be destroyed, she doesn't want Xykon to win, but why wouldn't she support RC or at the very least his plan?

She protects the Gate, but maybe not for those we think, maybe she knows about the Dark One, maybe SHE is the one he talks to since he doesn't talk to RC. plus she seems pretty chaotic, which would fit, she has no allegiance I can think of, but she does have green friends.

She doesn't want the Gate destroyed, she wants to control it to better the status of her troll friends, using RC in the process. And if the world is rebooted to give them that new status, it would explain the "existing was fun while it lasted part", because why would she know what the DO ignores, aka that he may not make it into the next iteration? All in all, her behavior could well fit into that explanation...Thoughts? "Yes? No? Just spitballing here"

Heh, I was just re-reading the Book 7 strips last night, and while I don't know if I took it as far as you did, the parallel between the trolls' lot in life and the goblins' definitely occured to me.

[luagha]

Let's take a step closer. What happens when she finds out that the random goblin lackey is The Bearer of the Crimson Mantle, High Priest of the Dark One and quite possibly low Epic by this point? That info will probably upset whatever calculations she's made and motivate her to change plans.

I will definitely say that this sequence of comics have gotten me near screaming at the screen with what O-chul SHOULD say in this situation.

In that way it is a rousing success.

[Peelee]

Peelee explained it better and in more detail than I did, so I didn't feel like I needed to get any further with mine. But yeah, I think it's a beat panel.

I also cheated; in my early 20s I had a book about how to draw comics, which went into a lot of detail about the medium.

[Ruck]

I also cheated; in my early 20s I had a book about how to draw comics, which went into a lot of detail about the medium.

I dunno if it was Understanding Comics, but that immediately made me think of Scott McCloud, whose work I generally enjoy.

Comics aren't really my medium, but I have enough experience with storytelling, both academic and practical, that the beat purpose of the panel made inherent sense to me.

[Anitar]

A thought: The way Serini phrases the first panel, she's specifically avoiding any mention of Orangevoice. For that matter, she didn't say a word to/about Orangevoice in #1189 until both paladins were down for the count. What's the point of keeping this (apparent) minion's existence a secret from them?

A second, unrelated thought: I still don't get what the deal with her cloak is. It's way too big for a halfling. My first thought was that she could have gotten it from the trolls... but no, it's too small for them.

And a third: I guess Serini's appearance isn't counted as a spoiler anymore, if it's on full display in the comic announcement's thumbnail?

[Jasdoif]

A thought: The way Serini phrases the first panel, she's specifically avoiding any mention of Orangevoice. For that matter, she didn't say a word to/about Orangevoice in #1189 until both paladins were down for the count. What's the point of keeping this (apparent) minion's existence a secret from them?

Maintaining the element of surprise?

[DLcygnet]

That throne room was protected from scrying by a spell powerful enough to keep Xykon from looking inside, yet Serini seems to know what happened there.I wonder how she got that information.

There were only 2 other people present that she might willingly talk to. Soon's spirit, assuming she has another friend that would let her commune with him. Or Miko. And I have no idea what convoluted plot twist it would take to resurrect her.

UNLESS she happened to scry on the Azure city crew right as V and O'chul teleported in on top of everybody after their escape from Xykon... "twas my blade that did the deed."

[Peelee]

There were only 2 other people present that she might willingly talk to. Soon's spirit, assuming she has another friend that would let her commune with him. Or Miko. And I have no idea what convoluted plot twist it would take to resurrect her.

3 other people. Why would Serini not use an excellent source like the Oracle?

[bunsen_h]

3 other people. Why would Serini not use an excellent source like the Oracle?

The "one question per client per visit" rule is limiting. Bringing other people along to ask additional questions is possible, but how many people can be trusted? Orange-voice, presumably, but others?

[Peelee]

The "one question per client per visit" rule is limiting. Bringing other people along to ask additional questions is possible, but how many people can be trusted? Orange-voice, presumably, but others?

Asking "what happened to the last Gate" each time a Gate falls is only one question.

[Anitar]

Asking "what happened to the last Gate" each time a Gate falls is only one question.

"It broke."

[Peelee]

"It broke."

Again, no reason to think the Oracle isn't as much of a jerk to Serini as he is to humans and a halfling that is going to kill him.

And, at the very least, we know that adventurers half her level were able to hang the Oracle out a window and get a more detailed answer, so there's an alternate for ya.

[Wildstag]

So with the way she judges O-Chul, does this mean she does not know about the Godsmoot, or more specifically, the extent to which O-Chul knows about the Godsmoot? Because at this point destroying the gate does nothing; the Gods would rather end the world than see the gate used against them, so their best options don't involve destroying the gate. It is fighting until death to prevent Xykon from reaching the gate.

[Ruck]

Asking "what happened to the last Gate" each time a Gate falls is only one question.

"It broke."

Again, no reason to think the Oracle isn't as much of a jerk to Serini as he is to humans and a halfling that is going to kill him.

And, at the very least, we know that adventurers half her level were able to hang the Oracle out a window and get a more detailed answer, so there's an alternate for ya.

The question could also be more specific-- "Who broke the gate?" or "How was the last Gate destroyed?" or something like that.

[Kelenius]

Again, no reason to think the Oracle isn't as much of a jerk to Serini as he is to humans and a halfling that is going to kill him.

To add to this, the Oracle seems genuinely concerned about the state of the gates, considering he tried to correct Roy's question.

I don't think he's the source of her information, though. That would be the fourth time his prophecies are used to kick-start a plot? Seems unlikely to me.

[4sigma]

A second, unrelated thought: I still don't get what the deal with her cloak is. It's way too big for a halfling. My first thought was that she could have gotten it from the trolls... but no, it's too small for them.

I'm also curious about this. My current best theory is that it's a (human sized) magic item such as a cloak of fire resistance that Serini wears it because her troll flesh is vulnerable to fire. But I admit I don't really love that theory. I think in the D&D universe, magical clothing tends to resize to fit the wearer? I don't recall Belkar having any wrong-sized magic items, for example.

The staff that she carries is also rather large for her. Maybe she has that because she needs to stir the large cauldron, but then why such a large cauldron instead of a halfling-sized one? I guess the cauldron could also be a human-sized magic item.

Alternate theory is that this has something to do with orange-voice. I.e. maybe the cloak confers the knowledge of potion-making and has to be worn when operating the magic cauldron. If orange-voice is human-sized and also uses the cauldron, then the cloak, staff, and cauldron are human-sized so that either orange-voice or Sereni can use them.

Again, not sure I really love that theory either. Anyone else got a better one?

[dancrilis]

Serini is an admitted liar, though. I could've sword there's a quote somewhere in the comic about trusting admitted liars, but I can't place it.

Here you go.
It was referenced here in comic.

[Riftwolf]

So with the way she judges O-Chul, does this mean she does not know about the Godsmoot, or more specifically, the extent to which O-Chul knows about the Godsmoot? Because at this point destroying the gate does nothing; the Gods would rather end the world than see the gate used against them, so their best options don't involve destroying the gate. It is fighting until death to prevent Xykon from reaching the gate.

But O-Chul doesn't really know about the Godsmoot either. Assuming V sent a sending to him (which I'd question, as it's not like him knowing is going to help), it's limited to 25 words. He and Lien didn't react with a huge amount of relief when V said crisis had been delayed, which you'd expect from two people who'd found out Deus was Exing your Machinas.
The Godsmoot isn't going to be important in this book (unless it is), as it was mainly a driving force in the last book and now mostly out of the protagonists hands. I doubt Serini knows or cares what the Gods are doing, as she's got zero ability to affect that outcome.

[Mic_128]

I
I agree: It deserves analysis, why is Serini talking to them so freely if she's just going to wipe their memory of the conversation?

My thinking is it's for her own enjoyment. She said she "doesn't blend in with halfling society anymore" and talks about "belonging out here with the monsters" so they're likely the first non-trolls she's spoken with for decades (with the posible exception of Orange Text, whoever they are.) It's also probably the first time in even longer she can talk about the Gates with anyone (except for Orange Text, again)

Especially after this past year, I think we all know how much being isolated and only having a small group to talk with can suck, so I can easily see this being a chance to enjoy conversation before doping them up and sending them on their way.

[Peelee]

To add to this, the Oracle seems genuinely concerned about the state of the gates, considering he tried to correct Roy's question.

I don't think he's the source of her information, though. That would be the fourth time his prophecies are used to kick-start a plot? Seems unlikely to me.

Nitpick, but is it a prophecy if it happened in the past? It's happened before with the ABD asking who killed her son. The Oracle is a known potential source of information in Srickworld, after all.

[Schroeswald]

You're on a forum full of nerd fans of a comic strip based on a game with a complex and often byzantine set of rules. Of course people are pedantic about those rules and details.

I’ve seen much more pedantic arguments here than Peelee correcting a minor factual inaccuracy, I’m even in several peoples sigs because of one.

[Peelee]

I dunno if it was Understanding Comics, but that immediately made me think of Scott McCloud, whose work I generally enjoy.

Comics aren't really my medium, but I have enough experience with storytelling, both academic and practical, that the beat purpose of the panel made inherent sense to me.

BTW, it was not but I did get that one in college for a lit course.