Opinions on Kara-Tur

[Satinavian]

On a slightly different note, many RPGs (and other sorts of games) face a strange pressure in that there's actually not a lot of desire for Fantasy-Asia, there's desire to play Asian inspired fantasy characters in Fantasy Europe. People want to play samurai, ninja, and Kung-Fu masters in the West rather than bothering with actually going to the source. This is very clear in the superhero genre, which includes all sorts of characters with supposedly East Asian martial arts training (including the OG himself, Batman) while being firmly Western-based characters. Exactly why this happens is no doubt some sort of complex sociological phenomenon - one that it should be noted seems to be universal, as many East Asian origin properties low to include Western-origin characters and fighting styles - but its definitely a thing.

Having had quite a number of fantasy asia campaigns i would disagree with that.

[t209]

Having had quite a number of fantasy asia campaigns i would disagree with that.

You do, but probably small.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by t209
You do, but probably small.

What exactly do you mean here?

[t209]

What exactly do you mean here?

Like "audience and people who want such setting" would be rather small.

[Tanarii]

You do, but probably small.

Like "audience and people who want such setting" would be rather small.

Is this a riddle or poetry?

[t209]

Is this a riddle or poetry?

I was just saying that while there are people who might want fantasy asia setting, the audience would be too small enough to publish one.
Aside from homebrews and third party.

[The Glyphstone]

The confusion seems to have come from you leaving out half the words required to form a coherent sentence in the original reply...

[Beleriphon]

I haven't paid much attention to WotC in quite a while now. Do you mean they're not putting out detailed setting supplements? And if not, why not?

Why, because according to their own sales numbers, which they don't release but I'm assuming somebody at WotC has actually looked at, big setting books don't sell super well past a certain point while adventures sell better and they can link setting material to the adventures. If you'll note WotC is releasing I think four books per year, basically on per quarter, three are split between player material and DM material and one is an adventure. There have been a few exceptions, but those are kind of extra stuff. For example Acquisitions Inc. is a WotC published booked but it was written by the Penny-Arcade crew rather. Wildemount is similar (I think I don't own it) in that it was published by WotC but not written by the staff.

[t209]

Just curious, did any of the L5R staff part of Kara-Tur in TSR days.
I mean some of its idea did get implemented in card-game and non-3E OA books.
Like Shugenja and maybe some ideas from OA's region books (Hai Yuan maybe Mantis Clan or Tien Lun/Plains of Dispute* being Scorpions).
*I know it's borderlands and DMZ againt Tu Lung, but I kinda feel that the writer should have used "bandits, soldiers and their families, or convoys for forts" or put in reason why they are defending the province along with proses, descriptions of people, locations, and "nothing grows here" if you ignore that Chu'Yuan already fulfilled the borderlands without resorting to "these locals are treacherous, violent, and always think about stabbing people yet live in area with nothing grows".

[Satinavian]

I was just saying that while there are people who might want fantasy asia setting, the audience would be too small enough to publish one.
Aside from homebrews and third party.

Don't know. Other systems do that quite regularly. Looking a.g. at Splittermond that fantasy-China
Was one of the most popular setting books and also one of the earlier ones. And it is not even the only fantasy-Asia-Setting. We also have

Spoiler: other Splittermond fantasy Asia setting books

Show

There more fantasy-Asia setting books than fantasy-Europe setting books (and some that are neither like fantasy-Oceania, fantasy-Sahara or pure fantastical setings without close links). Ant that is likely to continue as we don't have books for fantasy-Japan and fantasy-central-Asia yet while those do have a place on the world map and even some official modules.

And that certainly is not because the players of Germanies third most popular fantasy game want to play in fantasy Europe all the time.

If you don't treat fantasy-Asia as some tacked on half-hearted extra, players will likely embrace playing there.

[sktarq]

I think there is a pretty steep learning curve of pre-1700's cultures by most modern players. There is a quite clear self-delusion that this is an issue that can be ignored in the not!Europe settings but is difficult in the not!Asia, not!MiddleEast, not!Africa, and not!pre-columbian-western-hemisphere type settings. I am regularly amazed at how ignorant of other cultures and history most people (including most D&D players) are. So adding historical realism just makes the player do work in a way that isn't fun for them. Realism isn't fun for most. And this is true for dealing with the politics of family ties, family punishments by imperial forces, social pressures due to birth or religion, the mentality of what makes a hero to the local culture etc and that is true for the Roman Empire, The Chinese Empire, or whatever other group you may want.
It is just really obvious in situations like Kara Tur....enough that it makes people uncomfortable.



Also as for cultures living right next together but not mixing...it really does happen. Look at places like Syria or the Crimea. In the Crimea when the Russians invaded there were still towns that were Greek (remains of colony from classic Hellenistic times), towns who mostly spoke Gothic (yes the goths who were left behind when the rest moved into the Roman empire) along with the dominant remains of Tartars/Golden Horde/Crimean Khanate etc. So such cultural smoothing is not a forgone conclusion. So wide cultural mix is possible . So wanting to pull from say Japan, Korea, Manchu, Xian, Nanjing, Wuhan, and dozens of others really shouldn't be impossible to do well.

[t209]

I think there is a pretty steep learning curve of pre-1700's cultures by most modern players. There is a quite clear self-delusion that this is an issue that can be ignored in the not!Europe settings but is difficult in the not!Asia, not!MiddleEast, not!Africa, and not!pre-columbian-western-hemisphere type settings. I am regularly amazed at how ignorant of other cultures and history most people (including most D&D players) are. So adding historical realism just makes the player do work in a way that isn't fun for them. Realism isn't fun for most. And this is true for dealing with the politics of family ties, family punishments by imperial forces, social pressures due to birth or religion, the mentality of what makes a hero to the local culture etc and that is true for the Roman Empire, The Chinese Empire, or whatever other group you may want.
It is just really obvious in situations like Kara Tur....enough that it makes people uncomfortable.

Well, I am not sure if DM at that time would "Roll for courtly gesture...and you are executed on the spot for missing for a few inch in bowing to the Daimyo" even by "player-kill-heavy" OAD&D era.
Heck, even Swords of the Daimyo had a "export" prologue where it seems to want to kill players at level 5--even encouraging to go west even with morale penalty that lead to mutiny--and probably replace with local pre-gen that they may or may not have a say in.
And even reaching Kara-Tur, it also had "you got jailed, but you might be free months later albeit with catch" that might not sit well for someone who wanted far-east fantasy but had to go through tedious seission.
Assuming if DM would be creative enough to make a better prologue, or just skip it and make a better hook.

[t209]

Speaking of Kara-Tur, is there any other Asian Fantasy setting and how are they compared to Kara-Tur?
Also maybe what kind of home-rule or addendum to deal with shortfalls (namely "how to get Ninja, Barbarian, and Shugenja to work together despite how contradictory their goals are").

[Beleriphon]

Speaking of Kara-Tur, is there any other Asian Fantasy setting and how are they compared to Kara-Tur?
Also maybe what kind of home-rule or addendum to deal with shortfalls (namely "how to get Ninja, Barbarian, and Shugenja to work together despite how contradictory their goals are").

Tenra Bansho Zero, an actual RPG that is made in Japan for Japanese consumers.

Qin: The Warring States - guess what it's modeled after!

Sengoku - also, take a guess.

Depending on how you take it Exalted can be Asian inspired.

[Satinavian]

I know a couple of fantasy Asia settings, but to be honest, i am not particularly knowledgable about Kara-Tur, which makes comparisons difficult.
But if you ask a bit more concrete questions, i might go into details.

Also none of them are D&D.

[Max_Killjoy]

Rokugan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rokugan

[t209]

Rokugan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rokugan

Yeah, I was wondering if any of L5R writers worked for TSR before.
I know they adapted for 3E but just heard about it from AznsRepresents (but they do seem to be assuming it from 3E though, but they do point out similarities with some provinces* as clans).
*For some reason, the Plains of Dispute locals being treacherous and evil...instead of trying to say “outposts, military garrison families, soldiers serving in exchange for farms, and maybe bandit/raider clans paid off by either side”.