If the Dark One is toast, isn't Hel toast too?

[Archives]

I mean it's an army of GOBLIN souls. They were a match for low-level PCs when they were alive, and now they are going to try and go against Solars and Deevas?

Overwhelming numbers can only cover so much of a force gap.

Making a lot of assumptions there.

[sihnfahl]

What you're overlooking is she's gotten quite a lot of souls, just not as many as she'd like.

Or more to the point - not as many as she expected based off the wager she made with Loki and Thor.

Based off past experiences, she expected a LOT of souls, mortals being mortals.

But with a certain someone cluing the dwarves in, resulting in a VERY lawful society, that number didn't reach the projections.

[The MunchKING]

Making a lot of assumptions there.

Yeah, but it's closer to what we see in the comic, rather than the usual rules on petitioners.

[Grey Watcher]

(Minor nitpick: Hel was getting a truly meagre amount of dwarven souls for those centuries (the world is less than two millenia old, so it can't be millenia), while Big Purple gets all the goblinoid souls and goblinoids get killed a lot.)

Do we know that it's under 2,000 years old? I could swear Rich said somewhere that the date 1184 (or is it '85 by now) is on a calendar that doesn't start at the creation of the world, so there was some amount of history between the creation of the world and whatever event the Northern (?) calendar is counting from. And to my recollection (which may indeed be flawed) just how much history has never been established.

[Emanick]

Do we know that it's under 2,000 years old? I could swear Rich said somewhere that the date 1184 (or is it '85 by now) is on a calendar that doesn't start at the creation of the world, so there was some amount of history between the creation of the world and whatever event the Northern (?) calendar is counting from. And to my recollection (which may indeed be flawed) just how much history has never been established.

That's correct; it's in some bonus material in one of the compilation books, IIRC. So our best guess is that the current planet is a few thousand years old, given Thor's comment on the longevity of worlds that "we're up to a few thousand years each, give or take."

[Ginasius]

But here I'm just going into speculative theodymanics

Great word!

Is it an invention of yours or is it part of the D&D culture?

[brian 333]

I wouldn't be too quick to discount TDO's minions. While they may have begun as lowbie-bait, they have been drilling hard in the afterlife and are probably being powered up by the devotion being offered by the living goblins.

However, while Hel gains a trickle of juice from all of the followers of the Northern Pantheon, TDO has no other pantheon mates to share Belief with. Most Northerners would know Hel, whereas most would not know TDO.

[Grey Watcher]

I wouldn't be too quick to discount TDO's minions. While they may have begun as lowbie-bait, they have been drilling hard in the afterlife and are probably being powered up by the devotion being offered by the living goblins.

However, while Hel gains a trickle of juice from all of the followers of the Northern Pantheon, TDO has no other pantheon mates to share Belief with. Most Northerners would know Hel, whereas most would not know TDO.

I wonder if cross-pantheon Belief counts? Malack, for example, was vaguely aware of Hel and her deal. Does that little bit count even though he's a Westerner? If so, then TDO could potentially be at a severe disadvantage, since it seems not many non-goblins are even aware of him. (I may be misremembering, but I believe Minrah didn't know who TDO was until Thor mentioned him.)

[Goblin_Priest]

I mean it's an army of GOBLIN souls. They were a match for low-level PCs when they were alive, and now they are going to try and go against Solars and Deevas?

Overwhelming numbers can only cover so much of a force gap.

Well, per RAW, all petitioners have 2HD, regardless of how powerful they got in life. This setting doesn't seem to go by that, though.

Secondly, outsiders such as solars and deevas are powered by the petitioners. I don't think it's laid out super clearly anywhere, but some places seem to suggest that petitioners can directly morph into various outsiders (like lemures replacing LE petitioners, and the lucky ones getting promotions to higher forms of baatezu races), or that the plane absorbing these souls then allows it to independantly spawn new outsiders.

So if TDO gets a bunch of goblinoid petitioners, he's probably turning some of them, directly or indirectly, into outsiders. Yugguloths and such, presumably.

[Emanick]

Well, per RAW, all petitioners have 2HD, regardless of how powerful they got in life. This setting doesn't seem to go by that, though.

Secondly, outsiders such as solars and deevas are powered by the petitioners. I don't think it's laid out super clearly anywhere, but some places seem to suggest that petitioners can directly morph into various outsiders (like lemures replacing LE petitioners, and the lucky ones getting promotions to higher forms of baatezu races), or that the plane absorbing these souls then allows it to independantly spawn new outsiders.

So if TDO gets a bunch of goblinoid petitioners, he's probably turning some of them, directly or indirectly, into outsiders. Yugguloths and such, presumably.

TDO seems to be located on Acheron. Does Acheron turn souls into Outsiders?

Also, from what we've seen, I'm kind of skeptical that the souls-into-Outsiders thing is going on in the OOTSverse, but the in-comic (and out-of-comic, in the form of Rich's comments) evidence is so scanty that I don't think there's enough evidence to really make a good case either way.

[Goblin_Priest]

TDO seems to be located on Acheron. Does Acheron turn souls into Outsiders?

Also, from what we've seen, I'm kind of skeptical that the souls-into-Outsiders thing is going on in the OOTSverse, but the in-comic (and out-of-comic, in the form of Rich's comments) evidence is so scanty that I don't think there's enough evidence to really make a good case either way.

Why wouldn't it?

Infernal Battlefield of Acheron
Thuldanin.

The hue and cry of battle is the first sound a soldier hears when arriving on Acheron and the last sound a refugee hears when leaving. That’s all Acheron offers: conflict, war, strife, and struggle. Many armies populate Acheron, but leaders are scarce. Truly, rebels without a cause are common on Acheron, whether they’re mortals, fiends, or celestials.

Avalas, Thuldanin, Tintibulus, and Ocanthus are the layers of Acheron, each made of island- or even continent-sized iron cubes floating in an airy void. Sometimes the cubes collide, and echoes of past collisions linger throughout the plane, mingling with the ring of sword on sword as armies clash across the faces of the cubes.

Acheron has the following traits.

Objective directional gravity. Which way is down depends on which face of a cube you’re on. Walking across edges between faces can be dizzying for the inexperienced.
Divinely morphic. Acheron changes at the whim of its deities. Ordinary creatures must use spells and physical effort to change the infernal battlefield.
Mildly law-aligned.

Random Encounters: Use the Hellish Encounters table for random encounters on Acheron.

Spoiler: Example Acheron Site: Thuldanin’s War-Cubes

Show

The cubes of this layer are riddled with pockets and hollows. Surface pits lead down into labyrinthine spaces cluttered with the refuse of every war that was ever fought here.

Broken scraps of a myriad of devices are everywhere. Great ships that have burst asunder, toppled siege towers, enormous weapons, steam-driven carriages, flying devices of every description, and contraptions with even more obscure sources of power and purpose can be found within these cubes. Most of the refuse is inoperative, petrified to stonelike immobility by the “preservative” quality of the layer.

Scavenging for intact weapons is an occupation for many a team of salvagers and opportunists, because many quality weapons and engines of war are scattered through the rubble on Thuldanin. But wise salvagers don’t spend too long on Thuldanin, because creatures can be petrified just as objects can be. Any given object or creature has a 1% cumulative chance per 30 days spent on Thuldanin of spontaneously petrifying into stone. Objects or creatures petrified by the natural qualities of Thuldanin cannot be returned to their previous state, except by such high-level magic as a wish or miracle spell.

To make encounter maps for the war-cubes, simply create expansive dungeon terrain: large rooms, wide hallways, tall ceilings, and so forth. Then fill much of it with junk (light rubble or dense rubble). Add large structures such as catapults, war galleys, and strange clockwork devices. Finally, add a few statues—unfortunate ex-adventurers who lingered too long looking for treasure.

Characters searching for treasure will undoubtedly confront rival salvagers; Thuldanin is known throughout the Great Wheel, so almost anyone or anything can be searching the caverns of the war-cubes. Not everything in Thuldanin is ruined. Constructs such as inevitables and golems might yet be functional, springing to action when the characters draw near. To represent the riches of the war-cubes, consider all creatures encountered here (except the constructs) to have double standard treasure. But rather than putting the treasure with the creatures, hide it among the debris of war and let the characters find the loot.

Additionally:

Outsider Type: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

I see little reason to believe that TDO wouldn't have various evil, and perhaps even neutral-aligned outsiders at his service. Some associations would seem natural, such as with barghests.

[Morty]

Neither Hel's nor the Dark One's demise between worlds is certain. The Dark One is likely enough to die that Thor and the Order won't risk it. Hel is likely enough to die that Loki is worried. But she either isn't worried or doesn't realize what the risk is - given her mental state, I wouldn't rule out either one. I feel like that's about all the can be said, but it's enough.

[Riftwolf]

Just a thought: if TDO gets enough goblin souls that his power rivals another Pantheon (spurious at best, I know), he has no place in the carefully maintained Pact the other gods require to stop the Snarl escaping. In other words, he's a threat they'd want to contain, not broker with.

[Doctor West]

No, no, no. If the Dark One is toast, Hel is an english muffin.
(Yes, I know, the time for joke answers is long past. I'm slow. )

[Peelee]

No, no, no. If the Dark One is toast, Hel is an english muffin.
(Yes, I know, the time for joke answers is long past. I'm slow. )

Ohhh, that was a good one. I'm jelly.

The time for joke answers is never past!

[Riftwolf]

No, no, no. If the Dark One is toast, Hel is an english muffin.
(Yes, I know, the time for joke answers is long past. I'm slow. )

Does that make Thor the crumpet?

[Grey Watcher]

Ohhh, that was a good one. I'm jelly.

There's a very narrow margarine to make a joke first.

[Peelee]

There's a very narrow margarine to make a joke first.

Any joke you can make I can make butter.

[hamishspence]

I see little reason to believe that TDO wouldn't have various evil, and perhaps even neutral-aligned outsiders at his service. Some associations would seem natural, such as with barghests.

There's a LN outsider in MM3 that's native to Acheron - the Justicator. Those look like angels, but with black-and-white feathered wings.

I could see some of those serving The Dark One.

[Grey Watcher]

Any joke you can make I can make butter.

I can't believe it's not...

[Doctor West]

Does that make Thor the crumpet?

Being American, I had to google to find out what a crumpet actually is. Looks kind of like a Chaotic Good muffin, so let's say yes.

Please don't start a serious argument about the alignment of savory baked goods.

[Ruck]

Please don't start a serious argument about the alignment of savory baked goods.

Scones are Lawful Evil.

[RatElemental]

Another factor I haven't seen anyone bring up: If the snarl snarls the world and eats all the dwarves, Hel doesn't get squat to make up for her extended starvation period. In this situation I could see her fading out completely before the next world.

I think that is the hypothetical Loki was talking about.

[Peelee]

Toast, obviously, is True Neutral, so neither Hel not TDO are toast.

[Riftwolf]

Scones are Lawful Evil.

They're native to the dry dusty wastelands of Gehenna, like turkeys.

Toast, obviously, is True Neutral, so neither Hel not TDO are toast.

I'd argue Toast soldiers are Chaotic Good, burnt toast is evil, LE is burnt toast with the burnt area covered in butter.

[Taevyr]

Chocolate chip cookies are neutral good. Raisin cookies are chaotic evil.

Also: if all the gods are toast, do the quiddities serve as flavouring?

[Peelee]

Chocolate chip cookies are neutral good. Raisin cookies are chaotic evil.

Also: if all the gods are toast, do the quiddities serve as flavouring?

I'd imagine chocolate chip cookies are Lawful good and M&M cookies are chaotic good

[Grey Watcher]

Chocolate chip cookies are neutral good. Raisin cookies are chaotic evil.

Also: if all the gods are toast, do the quiddities serve as flavouring?

I'm now imagining the pantheon names in the movie snack setting: The Ketchup Pantheon (red), the Butter Pantheon (yellow), and the Frosting Pantheon (blue).

[Peelee]

I'm now imagining the pantheon names in the movie snack setting: The Ketchup Pantheon (red), the Butter Pantheon (yellow), and the Frosting Pantheon (blue).

Headcanon'd.

It's either that or the Strawberry, Lemon, and Blue Raspberry pantheons.

[Taevyr]

Headcanon'd.

It's either that or the Strawberry, Lemon, and Blue Raspberry pantheons.

Seems a bit too healthy for the moviesnack setting; but a hypothetical fruit-based setting sounds like a trip