CoDzilla Vs Wizard

[Jimp]

A. Druidzilla Vs Batman Wizard

B. Clericzilla Vs Batman Wizard

ECL 20, full WBL. Assume standard ultra optimised builds, but no infinite loops.

Discuss.
*Gets the popcorn*

[Kurald Galain]

ECL 20, full WBL. Assume standard ultra optimised cheese.

By that, you mean Pun-Pun and the Mortiverse?

[cupkeyk]

I would say clericzilla. Since he can center an amf on him and still beat the crap out of a wizard with his mace.

[Vva70]

In a showdown environment?
Batman > Druidzilla > Clericzilla.

In a competition for power and versatility versus DM applied challenges?
Druidzilla > Clericzilla > Batman

All of which can vary due to circumstances of course. And any one of them could conceivably become Pun-Pun, so that's a draw.

[Freelance Henchman]

Does it even matter at this level of power? They are ALL overpowered, it comes down who manages to sneak in the cheese without the DM noticing.

[Spiryt]

Monk will win. She's a GM's girlfriend

[tyckspoon]

Monk will win.

Obviously.

Ok, taking a serious stab at this (and excluding prestige classing..): The arcane spell list is generally better, which favors the Wizard. However, the cleric can get access to most arcane effects by way of Anyspell (, Greater) and Miracle. It's not as efficient as the Wizard casting them himself, but these spells will let the cleric do something like set a Contingency. The Druid will do fine if he can get a grip on one of the others, but he can't. His spell list has a lot of trouble competing directly with the arcane list.

So who wins? Flip a coin. Then use it to go buy a pack of gum or something. It'll be far more productive than this discussion.

[Karsh]

Spoiler

Show

Please... stop trying to start flamewars. These discussions don't accomplish anything and clutter up the boards.

[Chronos]

There's got to be some way for a druid to gain the extraordinary special qualities (as opposed to special attacks) of wildshape forms, right? Because if so, I think the appropriately-cheesed druid can probably beat anyone, short of infinite loop cheese (i.e., no Pun-Pun, Omniscifer, Imbued Healing infinite damage, wish-for-more-wishes chains, etc.).

[tyckspoon]

There's got to be some way for a druid to gain the extraordinary special qualities (as opposed to special attacks) of wildshape forms, right? Because if so, I think the appropriately-cheesed druid can probably beat anyone, short of infinite loop cheese (i.e., no Pun-Pun, Omniscifer, Imbued Healing infinite damage, wish-for-more-wishes chains, etc.).

Oh, yes, quite easily in fact. It's called 'casting Shapechange'. Unfortunately, this does not give the Druid any unique advantage in the contest; the Wizard can do it too, and the spell is on the Animal domain's list.

[Hario]

There's got to be some way for a druid to gain the extraordinary special qualities (as opposed to special attacks) of wildshape forms, right? Because if so, I think the appropriately-cheesed druid can probably beat anyone, short of infinite loop cheese (i.e., no Pun-Pun, Omniscifer, Imbued Healing infinite damage, wish-for-more-wishes chains, etc.).

They can, its called Planar shephard PrC they get SLA /3day by level 10 which can turn yourself into a djinni and have one of your friends use infinite wishes. Or just get the plane in eberron that runs 10x as fast as reality and destroy the wizard before his immediate action celerity goes off.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Druid - 8, Planar Shephered - 10, MoMF -2 is pretty tough to beat without any gear (Crazy things like turning into a Efreeti for wishes you can grant yourself because you are still human according to the rules or a Solar, Planar Timestopping for your and your animal companion). Then you add in 760,000 GP of it to the mix.

[Laurellien]

Archivist steps in and wipes the floor with all of them.

[Vva70]

They can, its called Planar shephard PrC they get SLA /3day by level 10 which can turn yourself into a djinni and have one of your friends use infinite wishes. Or just get the plane in eberron that runs 10x as fast as reality and destroy the wizard before his immediate action celerity goes off.

Actually, foresight and celerity would most likely supersede planar bubble, since it is an interrupting effect rather than a simple time-based effect. That gives the wizard a time stop and from there it's all over. That's why I believe the wizard would win in a showdown. Foresight => celerity => time stop is darn near impossible to beat in an arena environment. But yes, planar bubble is one of the main reasons I put the druid as doing better than the cleric in that environment.

And as far as sheer utility goes, planar bubble smacks the wizard all around for general-purpose use, which is why I said that in parallel challenges the druid would be top dog. The cleric also gets to shine here, whether by DMM-persist, DMM-quicken, or dweomerkeeper cheese (or all of the above). Note that dweomerkeeper can be entered with no arcane caster levels through a feat in PGtF (don't remember the name, magical training or something like that).

[Jimp]

Please... stop trying to start flamewars. These discussions don't accomplish anything and clutter up the boards.

What's wrong with asking who would win between some of the strongest classes in 3.5E? Everyone talks about how these classes can beat anything, so I wanted to ask the boards how they would fare against eachother. Best Vs Best sorta thing.

[Chronos]

Oh, yes, quite easily in fact. It's called 'casting Shapechange'.

Wouldn't work, since the combo I'm thinking of needs Natural Spell, too (which doesn't work with Shapechange).

They can, its called Planar shephard PrC they get SLA /3day by level 10 which can turn yourself into a djinni and have one of your friends use infinite wishes.

First of all, that doesn't give you the extraordinary special qualities of a form (which is what I asked for), and second, I specifically said I didn't want infinite loops, since once you allow infinite loops, it's just Pun vs. Pun.

[tyckspoon]

Actually, foresight and celerity would most likely supersede planar bubble, since it is an interrupting effect rather than a simple time-based effect. That gives the wizard a time stop and from there it's all over. That's why I believe the wizard would win in a showdown. Foresight => celerity => time stop is darn near impossible to beat in an arena environment. But yes, planar bubble is one of the main reasons I put the druid as doing better than the cleric in that environment.

And as far as sheer utility goes, planar bubble smacks the wizard all around for general-purpose use, which is why I said that in parallel challenges the druid would be top dog. The cleric also gets to shine here, whether by DMM-persist, DMM-quicken, or dweomerkeeper cheese (or all of the above). Note that dweomerkeeper can be entered with no arcane caster levels through a feat in PGtF (don't remember the name, magical training or something like that).

Planar Bubble's effects depend on what plane you're attuned to. That's not a quality you can swap out, and if the cosmology does not include a plane with a favorable time trait, planar bubble is not as good as Time Stop. If you're an Eberronian Planar Shepherd and you're aiming for optimization/cheese, then yeah, you get the 10:1 time trait, but if you're using Great Wheel cosmology, what plane do you use?

[Jimp]

once you allow infinite loops, it's just Pun vs. Pun.

Good point, forgot to put that in the opening post.
Infinite loops = not for now

[tyckspoon]

Wouldn't work, since the combo I'm thinking of needs Natural Spell, too (which doesn't work with Shapechange).First of all, that doesn't give you the extraordinary special qualities of a form (which is what I asked for), and second, I specifically said I didn't want infinite loops, since once you allow infinite loops, it's just Pun vs. Pun.

Oh. Ok. Seven levels in Master of Many Forms. Alternately, cast Enhance Wild Shape from the Spell Compendium; 4th level spell, hour/level duration, lets you apply one enhancement chosen from a list to your next use of Wild Shape. One of the options is gaining extraordinary abilities. (The other options- become a plant, small boost to Dex, Strength, or Con. Since you can get Plant shapes with normal Druid progression and the stat boosts completely suck for a 4th level spell, I'm pretty sure the real intent of this spell is using it to get extraordinary qualities.)

[Chronos]

All right, then, one of those methods, combined with the Aberrent Wild Shape feat, to become a will-o'-wisp. Immunity to almost all spells, undispellable perfect flight and invisibility, and I'm still a full caster. The wisp's own offensive capabilities are pretty pathetic, requiring it to close to melee range, but thanks to Natural Spell, the druid can just hover out of reach of anything non-flying and spam Nature's Allies, Baleful Polymorphs, Sunbeams, and whatever else is useful on the druid spell list. There are some damage spells that don't offer spell resistance (like the orbs), but those still need to hit the wisp's touch AC of 29, and a druid can blast just as well as a wizard, with more hit points. He can Dispell or Greater Dispell anything unpleasant stuck in a forcecage with him, or Word of Recall out.

[dyslexicfaser]

All this gives me a mental image of big, rubbery monsters in the shapes of clerics, druids, and wizards rampaging through Tokyo.

[tyckspoon]

All right, then, one of those methods, combined with the Aberrent Wild Shape feat, to become a will-o'-wisp. Immunity to almost all spells, undispellable perfect flight and invisibility, and I'm still a full caster. The wisp's own offensive capabilities are pretty pathetic, requiring it to close to melee range, but thanks to Natural Spell, the druid can just hover out of reach of anything non-flying and spam Nature's Allies, Baleful Polymorphs, Sunbeams, and whatever else is useful on the druid spell list. There are some damage spells that don't offer spell resistance (like the orbs), but those still need to hit the wisp's touch AC of 29, and a druid can blast just as well as a wizard, with more hit points. He can Dispell or Greater Dispell anything unpleasant stuck in a forcecage with him, or Word of Recall out.

mm. That's not bad. Master of Many Forms doesn't advance casting, tho, and being behind on casting progression is going to kill you in this match, so you probably want to use the spell (or a different prestige class that's less harsh. There probably is one somewhere.) The problem is the spell is dispellable, and if you're deathmatching with full casters, the Wizard may well go nuclear- he disjuncts you. You might not be forced out of your Wildshape, but you definitely lose the spell that was giving you the Ex qualities and, by extension, the qualities themselves.

[Helios Sunshard]

I have little experience with D&D (this forum has been a really good way to notice things that i would have never thought of), but it seems that the Cleric isnt as brokenly powerful as the druid or wizard, is there any way for him to get to their power level? (yes, i know they are still strong, i just wanted to know which kind of thing-that-you-must-not-do-becuase-it-destroys-the-game can they do other than DMM) i think i am asking this because yesterday i saw the Planar shephard Prc.

[Ramos]

Wizard defeats both cleric and druid with a sculpted AMF and Invoke Magic or Orb spells. Automatic removal of all buffs-including druid's wildshape-while you can still attack with 4th level and lower spells. Just throw a twinned DC 30 save or die (Phantasmal Killer) to them and they'll die 95% of the time.

[tyckspoon]

I have little experience with D&D (this forum has been a really good way to notice things that i would have never thought of), but it seems that the Cleric isnt as brokenly powerful as the druid or wizard, is there any way for him to get to their power level? (yes, i know they are still strong, i just wanted to know which kind of thing-that-you-must-not-do-becuase-it-destroys-the-game can they do other than DMM) i think i am asking this because yesterday i saw the Planar shephard Prc.

Get your caster level as high as you can (Orange Ioun Stone, Bead of Karma, Divine Spell Power feat, etc). Cast Holy Word or Blasphemy, depending on the alignment you want to affect. If your caster level is at least as high as the target's HD, the least effect it can have is no-save blindness. There's probably more Cleric-based builds in the Wizard's Char-Op board's collection of game breakers, but I'm having trouble locating that particular thread right now.

[deadseashoals]

In an arena, with characters built for the arena, whoever wins intiative. Optimized full casters at level 20 are far too deadly to allow anyone to survive a single round of their savage assaults. So the Druid is going to lose, since he doesn't have access to moment of prescience.

In a "regular" campaign (insofar as such a campaign would allow the Planar Shepherd and Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell) it's probably the Druid / Planar Shepherd. It's the most versatile.

Still, who cares? These kinds of hijinks aren't actually fun in a real game, and any one of these characters will rip the face off of anything else within 7 CRs, except maybe a Sorcerer or Psion.

[Chronos]

Just throw a twinned DC 30 save or die (Phantasmal Killer) to them and they'll die 95% of the time.

There are a lot of defenses against Phantasmal Killer, though. True Seeing, Mind Blank, immunity to fear, not being alive (the ever-popular necropolitan), spell resistance, or making either of your saves will stop it.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Of course, this thread critically misses the biggest baddie, the artificier. With him in, you have legal, not-monster-dependent Pun-Pun like cheese.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I have little experience with D&D (this forum has been a really good way to notice things that i would have never thought of), but it seems that the Cleric isnt as brokenly powerful as the druid or wizard, is there any way for him to get to their power level? (yes, i know they are still strong, i just wanted to know which kind of thing-that-you-must-not-do-becuase-it-destroys-the-game can they do other than DMM) i think i am asking this because yesterday i saw the Planar shephard Prc.

Wizard:Druid, what does the scouter say about the cleric's power level?

Druid:Looks, in horror, then smashes the scrying glass in his hand..
All together now -
IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAND!

Memes. Gotta love'em.

Still I would reiterate the point - clerics shine at mid-levels, although persisted stuff and super-Holy Words are still very powerful all the way through, especially against enemies with levels (who have fewer HD for their CR).

Archivist steps in and wipes the floor with all of them.

Wizard 1/ Cloistered Cleric 1 of Mystra / Archivist 8 / Dweomerkeeper 10. Oh yeah.

Take alternative source spell, DMM persist, and you are now ahead of the spellcasting of wizards, able to cast any spell in the game (helps if you have an artificer cohort), in armour, in an antimagic field, persisted, with 4 supernatural spells/day (wish, with six days' prep time, will give you an inherent +4 to each ability). You essentially out-batman batman.

[bugsysservant]

Well, lets see:

Druid-can turn into a will'o'wisp with a few feats, granting infinite SR. Can out melee any class if it comes down to it. IF you take Planar Shepherd you power greatly increases, but you need allies. Likewise, you can get free wishes, but only with allies (that I know of).

Cleric-can invest in DMM. With nightsticks every spell lasts 24 hours, has maximum results, you get another quickened spell a round, and any other effect you want to tack on. If you boost your CL with Heirophant, bead of Karma, ioun stone, and a few other effects, you can easily get your CL up high enough to dominate with holy word (that's 30 right there, enough kill the wizard automatically and the druid if he isn't will'o'wisp'd). Can crush the wizard in mellee if he has to-can just lay down a AMF and pound. Probably can be better prepared than the others since clerics tend to have excellent divinations.

Wizard-has the best spells, but is also the squishiest. Can unleash spell combos that can kill the others-maybe.

So yeah, the batman is powerful, but so are the two -Zillas. Ultimately, initiative will count the most.