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    Default Complete Mage Errata

    Well... the title says it all.

    Errata is out today for the Complete Mage
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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Yay Clarification on Abjurant Champion + Mage Armor! Boo what they decided.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelik View Post
    Yay Clarification on Abjurant Champion + Mage Armor! Boo what they decided.
    Pffft, cuz a full BAB full caster progression d10 class really should pick up +10 AC over 5 levels. That's 10 times more bonus AC than monks get, by the by. Ten.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    So incredibly irrelevant to my life and game that it made me laugh. Did anyone ever actually use those feats or spells?...?

    All in all, the only relevant part is about Abjurant Champion and that was expected, I like the class but it's a bit too strong for my taste...
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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Abjurant Champion ? I agree that the decision doesn't fit the flavor, but it removes some of the brokeness of that PrC.

    Still, there are some armor-like abjuration spells a this old thread of my shows.
    The Countess of Mispelling hath returned !__________________________________________________ _________Behold my magnetoresistance !
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    This isn't just any drow. This is a drow who is willing to have a good-aligned flying snake come out of her body so she can then fart rainbows.
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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Thanks. I also noticed that they put out PHBII errata last month, including this:

    Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission]
    Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit” section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat.”

    Buuut, that still allows you to use 0-level metamagics as negative levels to counteract other metamagic adjustments, I'd say. :)

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by KIDS
    So incredibly irrelevant to my life and game that it made me laugh. Did anyone ever actually use those feats or spells?...?
    I used Storm Bolt once because it was the best middle ground I could find between dominating with a Wizard and absolutely sucking.

    I guess this means half-assing it as a Wizard requires spell slots to pull off.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    The PHB2 errata was discussed in a different thread.

    Aside!
    I'm glad they finally released the errata this week, having just taken abjurant champion in a campaign I'm in, it's nice to know that replacing mage armor was a wise decision.
    At least they didn't omit the armor bonus part, just the misleading part. Ectoplasmic Armor is still a decent, though specific, replacement.
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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Abjurant Champion broken? Next to full casters? (Yes you can Full caster it, but you don't need the AC, and generally speaking you are already swift casting every round by that level, and of course the BAB thing doesn't help at all.)

    And yes, they should get more free AC then a Monk. Everyone should get more free AC then a Monk. Monks should get more free AC then Monks. Monks suck. But really, If a class is designed for defense, then it should be good at it. (A monk is designed for suck, so that doesn't apply.)

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    +10 ac is for too much to be balanced for a 5 level prestige class, in my honest opinion.

    Then again, monk can get more than that in 1 level, and Arcane Duelist can get it in two - so I think what I mean to say is that +10 is more anything than you should be able to get without needing to focus very hard on a specific ability score.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by SadisticFishing View Post
    +10 ac is for too much to be balanced for a 5 level prestige class, in my honest opinion.

    Then again, monk can get more than that in 1 level, and Arcane Duelist can get it in two - so I think what I mean to say is that +10 is more anything than you should be able to get without needing to focus very hard on a specific ability score.
    +9 Armor AC, and +9 Shield AC, isn't as much as it would seem - given that it doesn't stack with a real shield or real armor.
    And AC doesn't curve as quickly as BAB and to hit bonus. By the time you're getting levels in abjurant champion with a full caster, the AC isn't going to matter much.
    There are still ways to use the extra armor - ectoplasmic armor is nifty for defense against incorporeal specifically. With that and shield you can get up to an effective +23 to your AC against incorporeal touch attacks.

    Really, I don't think it mattered entirely too much either way. I find abjurant champion was a well built PrC (though perhaps was light on requirements a tiny bit) with or without it.
    Last edited by Reinboom; 2007-11-09 at 03:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    I'd beg to differ. Any character who decides to get his AC up can be virtually impossible to hit, with any CR-appropriate encounter requiring a 18+ to actually lay a finger on him. The only thing I've found to work to consistently hit people is someone with at least a barbarian level, because +3 to hit from 1 level is good, and sticking Frenzied Berserker on top of that makes hitting people a realistic idea instead of a fleeting dream.

    Law Devotion helps too, but is just stupid -_-

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Oh, and it seems the FAQ was updated on the 29th of October. It's news to me, so I am sharing it.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by SadisticFishing View Post
    I'd beg to differ. Any character who decides to get his AC up can be virtually impossible to hit, with any CR-appropriate encounter requiring a 18+ to actually lay a finger on him.
    What on Earth are you talking about? In my experience AC is a non-factor. Sure at low levels you can actually be hard to hit, but anytime past 10 you get hit all the time. Maybe if you poured every gp into magical armor class, maybe. But then you could just be a Pixie, equally as hard to hit, and equally as useless.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by SadisticFishing View Post
    I'd beg to differ. Any character who decides to get his AC up can be virtually impossible to hit, with any CR-appropriate encounter requiring a 18+ to actually lay a finger on him. The only thing I've found to work to consistently hit people is someone with at least a barbarian level, because +3 to hit from 1 level is good, and sticking Frenzied Berserker on top of that makes hitting people a realistic idea instead of a fleeting dream.
    Max level abjurant champion - pretending that mage armor worked with it - ...
    Level 11? For a build completely focused on abjurant champion, that's the 2nd fastest you can get in (straight off of level 6, suggesting wizard 2/full BAB 4).
    Already, you're gimped, since you aren't living up to both halves of your classes to their fullest.
    Any creature should have around +6 to +14 -or 10 on average to hit higher than 1st level. That's a pretty significant range - and that's playing it down.
    Compared to 1st level, your available AC increased by 10.
    ...
    You are no harder to hit than you were at 1st level on average.
    With greater mage armor, that still puts you only slightly harder to hit.
    Yes, you can focus on it with other items, but that's no worse than what the AC vs to hit system already is. And this, once again, is suggesting a gimped build. Also, the AC from this isn't raising after that point. Everything elses BAB and str or dex is. If you went fullcaster into Abjurant Champion (you'd end up being level 15 when you were done - or 14 if using Ruathar as a medium), you will end up being about 4 to 6 AC behind the recommended enemies new to hit, even. You will be hit easily.

    Even with mage armor gone (which was bested by a full plate anyways, +1 Full Plate = +9, Mage Armor [if it worked with the abjurant champion ability] would've only given +9), nothing changed here. Really. The Abjurant Champion was just slightly more disappointed. More like an "aww... shucks" than a "zOMG huge loss!".


    On errata:
    Did anyone notice
    Quote Originally Posted by Errata
    Page 06 – Heart of Air
    [Substitution]
    The spell’s “wu jen 2 (air)” tag should
    instead read “wu jen 2 (general).”
    That the errata needs errata? That should be page 106, not 06.
    Silly WotC_GregB.
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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelik View Post
    What on Earth are you talking about? In my experience AC is a non-factor. Sure at low levels you can actually be hard to hit, but anytime past 10 you get hit all the time.
    AC remains important to a melee character (and to a lesser degree any other character) all the way to level 20.

    Let's do a basic setup for a defensively minded abjurant champion, level 11.

    Base 10
    +8 natural armor, alter self to tren
    +5 enhancement natural armor, dragonskin spell (SpC)
    +2 deflection, ring of protection +2 (8000 gp)
    +1 insight, dusty rose ioun stone (5000 gp)
    +1 luck, robe of the vagabond (CCha, 6000 gp)
    +9 shield, shield spell
    +6 armor, greater mage armor spell (SpC)
    +3 Dex, assisted by +2 Dex item (4000 gp)

    = AC 45

    Most of the spells can be cast before combat. Casting shield is swift action for an abjurant champion. Polymorph or outsider alter self would push the AC even higher. So would feats like Combat Expertise, Carmendine Monk (ChaVal) or Ascetic Mage (CAdv). There are other ways if you really want to focus on AC.

    So yes, another +5 armor bonus from mage armor on top of AC 45 could be a non-factor, but that's because most opponents only hit on a natural 20 anyway...
    Last edited by Iku Rex; 2007-11-09 at 08:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Iku Rex
    ...= AC 45
    But then he's hit by one of the no-attack-roll save-or-dies that most high level monsters are able to produce. Or he's hit by a touch attack.

    Those aren't just cheesy answers either, they're how the game works past level 11 or 12.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Whether or not you can actually avoid getting hit, AC is still very important at high levels. It won't matter to a a lot of high-level monsters whether your AC is 35 or 45 for the purposes of hitting, but it does mean they can't use Power Attack as much.

    And it's a misconception that you'll always be hit at higher levels. It's pretty easy to get your AC up to a point where a balor will have trouble hitting you. Those enemies have other attack options, of course, but they also use melee attacks. It's not worth focusing exclusively on AC, but it also shouldn't be ignored, or else everything with Power Attack will cheerfully mutilate you.

    Errata looks pretty standard; the Abjurant Champion clear-up is the only really important one. I've always considered the swift-action casting of abjurations to be its best class feature, not the AC boost, so it doesn't seem to have significantly impacted the class.
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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Temp View Post
    But then he's hit by one of the no-attack-roll save-or-dies that most high level monsters are able to produce. Or he's hit by a touch attack.
    So what's the thinking here? "A high AC character isn't invulnerable to all attacks, so AC is useless"?

    Plain ol' melee damage remains a primary threat at high levels, especially if you put yourself in harm's way on purpose. (Melee character.) No-attack-roll save-or-dies are not as common as you make them out to be, and the save DC is often quite manageable.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Iku Rex View Post
    So what's the thinking here? "A high AC character isn't invulnerable to all attacks, so AC is useless"?

    Plain ol' melee damage remains a primary threat at high levels, especially if you put yourself in harm's way on purpose. (Melee character.) No-attack-roll save-or-dies are not as common as you make them out to be, and the save DC is often quite manageable.
    It's not useless, of course, but if you have magic to defend yourself with (like if you're an Abjurant Champion..) you've got better options. Make yourself invisible. Stack miss chances with spells like Blur and Displacement. Cast Mirror Image. Use Stoneskin and its like to get DR. These options protect against more than just standard physical attacks.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    It's not useless, of course, but if you have magic to defend yourself with (like if you're an Abjurant Champion..) you've got better options. Make yourself invisible. Stack miss chances with spells like Blur and Displacement. Cast Mirror Image. Use Stoneskin and its like to get DR. These options protect against more than just standard physical attacks.
    Those are not better options. They are additional options. High AC is a basic no frills defense that protects you without the need to spend the majority of the battle buffing.

    Yes, a high level abjurant champion has spells like (improved) blink, greater mirror image (PHBII) and heart of earth (CMag) available to him, but that's hardly a reason to make him more powerful by giving him unhittable AC on top of everything else.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Iku Rex
    So what's the thinking here? "A high AC character isn't invulnerable to all attacks, so AC is useless"?
    Just the first half of that statement, a 45 AC doesn't make a character invincible.

    A high AC is the same thing as the Mindblank spell: you remove a number of the offensive options that can be used against you, but there are still plenty to worry about.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Iku Rex View Post
    High AC is a basic no frills defense that protects you without the need to spend the majority of the battle buffing.
    Except that apparently you do need to spend half of combat buffing, according to the previous AC build (Or you cast the miss chances before battle, just like you did with Abjurant Champion.)

    As for the build itself. Note the first entry, Alter Self. Ignoring for a moment the brokenness of that, if you are an Abjurant Champion at that level, guess what, you can fly. Do that and make it meaningless.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelik View Post
    Except that apparently you do need to spend half of combat buffing, according to the previous AC build (Or you cast the miss chances before battle, just like you did with Abjurant Champion.)
    The "short" duration spells listed are 10 min/level. 110 minutes per casting, or 220 minutes with Extend spell or a metamagic rod. That's plenty of time to get through most "dungeons".

    Displacement, blink and greater invisibility are 1 round/level. They usually last only one battle, and most of the time you won't have time to cast them beforehand. 1 min/level spells are a little better, but there's no telling how many you'll need in a day and unless can convince the rest of the party to rush heedlessly forward they too may last only one battle.

    Having spells with a long duration is a big deal for a buff-based character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelik View Post
    As for the build itself. Note the first entry, Alter Self. Ignoring for a moment the brokenness of that, if you are an Abjurant Champion at that level, guess what, you can fly. Do that and make it meaningless.
    Alter self is a standard, low-level core spell. Disregarding it in a balance discussion is like insisting on balancing fighters based on the assumption that they'll have to fight with overripe fruit because you think greatswords are broken. And you'll notice that even with -8 AC the character would still have a solid AC.

    And fly? You think fly will make it impossible for high level opponents to hit you? In narrow dungeon corridors? As a melee character?!

    Edit: Not to mention the rest of the party.

    EditEdit: SweetRein has started a new thread for this topic: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62922 .
    Last edited by Iku Rex; 2007-11-10 at 12:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Iku Rex View Post
    Alter self is a standard, low-level core spell.
    And Polymorph is a standard, mid-level core spell. But that doesn't mean it isn't ridiculously broken. Why don't you just buy a Candle of Invocation, or Polymorph Any Object? Taking advantage of limitless transformative spells isn't allowed in most games. Can you get eight AC from any other spell in the game without 5 levels of class features? No. A level 3 Spell grants you only 6 AC, and that of an inferior type (because you can get that AC other ways, such as a +2 Mithril Twilight Chainshirt.)

    Alter Self is known for doing one thing, giving you access to third level spells at level 3. Alter Self can give you 8 AC, or it can give you a fly speed equal to the spell flight, with better maneuverability. Guess what, it's not as standard as a Great Sword, it's been banned (along with all Polymorph cheese) from most games I've played in.

    And look again at that AC. -8 from Alter Self, you have 37. 37 isn't going to help you much at all at higher levels. Even 45 would get hit often enough when you are looking at +30 to attack or more (usually more). But 37 isn't going to save you at all. Sure you won't be power attacked for full by that Balor, but you'll absolutely be hit by it.

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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    everything with Power Attack will cheerfully mutilate you.
    So incredibly well described...
    There is no good and evil. There is only more and less.
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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata

    Maybe I missed that somewhere else on "Teh Intarwebs" (I love saying that) but I am very confused about the Moderate School Esoterica for the Illusionist Master Specialist.

    The text says Illusion: You gain concealment.

    That's it. No percentage, no description later, no bonuses listed. Just concealment. Maybe it's 100% concealment, maybe it's 5%. It is very vague and not helpful at all.

    Please, please, someone point me in the direction of someone who has figured out what this means. Since Wizards neglected to put it in the errata I can only hope it was heavily discussed and worked out elsewhere beforehand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talya
    Anyone casting a ninth level spell should not be just bending the fabric of reality, but chewing up the fabric of reality and spitting it out. It represents an expenditure of raw magical force that should be momentous, and should have similar shock value as the events following Grand Moff Tarkin's "You may fire when ready."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkxarth View Post
    Maybe I missed that somewhere else on "Teh Intarwebs" (I love saying that) but I am very confused about the Moderate School Esoterica for the Illusionist Master Specialist.

    The text says Illusion: You gain concealment.

    That's it. No percentage, no description later, no bonuses listed. Just concealment. Maybe it's 100% concealment, maybe it's 5%. It is very vague and not helpful at all.

    Please, please, someone point me in the direction of someone who has figured out what this means. Since Wizards neglected to put it in the errata I can only hope it was heavily discussed and worked out elsewhere beforehand.
    Concealment, ever since 3.5, means a 20% miss chance. It also let you hide. Total concealment is a 50% miss chance. All those other percentages are gone.
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    Default Re: Complete Mage Errata



    Thanks both of you, I was just totally confused.
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    Truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Talya
    Anyone casting a ninth level spell should not be just bending the fabric of reality, but chewing up the fabric of reality and spitting it out. It represents an expenditure of raw magical force that should be momentous, and should have similar shock value as the events following Grand Moff Tarkin's "You may fire when ready."

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