The Astral Plane?

[jjordan]

Help me out here. I've been reading through the DMG and MToF and the Astral Projection spell and it all seems.... poorly conceived.

It's a realm of thought but creatures can physically exist there? I mean, the githzerai carving pockets of order out of Limbo makes more sense than the githyanki living on the astral plane. In your astral form thought is what allows you to interact with the realm so you use intelligence to control movement and.... that's it? It feels like the writers took a look at the astral plane material, decided it was too complicated to address, and just decided it was whatever they needed it to.

Are there any good resources for the astral plane? Should I look at some old Spelljammer material?

[Millstone85]

It's a realm of thought but creatures can physically exist there? I mean, the githzerai carving pockets of order out of Limbo makes more sense than the githyanki living on the astral plane.

Except that the Outer Planes, including Limbo, are also realms of thought. Now, the DMG claims that each outer plane has a "border region" similar to the part of the Plane of Fire where you can find air to breathe, a ground to stand on, and even water to drink. The same could apply to the Astral.

Should I look at some old Spelljammer material?

Spelljammer is about space travel on the Material Plane. It has nothing to do with the Astral.

[Unoriginal]

It's probably even more confusing in older texts, though.

Spelljammer is about space travel on the Material Plane. It has nothing to do with the Astral.

Indeed. Outside of how the Astral Plane is used as an alternative to Spelljamming by Githyanki and a few others.

It's a realm of thought but creatures can physically exist there? I mean, the githzerai carving pockets of order out of Limbo makes more sense than the githyanki living on the astral plane.

What makes you think thoughts aren't physical in the D&D cosmology? More specifically, they are physical in the Astral Plane. Which is why the corpses of dead gods are here. Also why souls travel through it until they get attracted by the Outer Plane which is the most similar to them.

[Millstone85]

Indeed. Outside of how the Astral Plane is used as an alternative to Spelljamming by Githyanki and a few others.

And I have no idea how that alternative works. Is it just a matter of plane shifting twice, which potentially lets you reach any destination on your starting plane? Or do crystal spheres have individual color pools on the Astral?

[Unoriginal]

And I have no idea how that alternative works. Is it just a matter of plane shifting twice, which potentially lets you reach any destination on your starting plane? Or do crystal spheres have individual color pools on the Astral?

Mix of both. I would say that raids and exceptional travels use more the plane-shifting method, while more routine travels use the color pools or other portals if possible.

[Trask]

What makes you think thoughts aren't physical in the D&D cosmology?

To be fair, the universe is called the material plane

This has probably been a problem since the beginning of the game, just because the idea of planes in our own world are higher MENTALstates of being, achieved by meditation and/or communion with the divine. In D&D it needs to contain the other system elements of D&D within it, like hacking stuff and plundering treasure and so they are places we can just step into with our physical bodies and feel more like alternate earths/dimensions as a result. Really I think they should be called dimensions rather than planes.

One solution to this, if it really bothers you, is to make it so the Outer Planes and the Astral Plane can only be reached through Astral Projection via the spell, and just make that spell (and potions and scrolls of it) more present in the setting. You could create all sorts of creatures that prey on thought-forms and challenge the characters even in their astral bodies, leaving permanent effects on their real ones, like someone waking up slain by the horror of a deadly nightmare.

That would be more in line with how planes are really conceived of in non-D&D sources.

[jjordan]

Spelljammer is about space travel on the Material Plane. It has nothing to do with the Astral.

I was confusing it with Planescape. Oops.

One solution to this, if it really bothers you, is to make it so the Outer Planes and the Astral Plane can only be reached through Astral Projection via the spell, and just make that spell (and potions and scrolls of it) more present in the setting. You could create all sorts of creatures that prey on thought-forms and challenge the characters even in their astral bodies, leaving permanent effects on their real ones, like someone waking up slain by the horror of a deadly nightmare.

Yeah, I was wondering if I was going to have to homebrew this and it looks like the answer is yes. Bummer.

[Millstone85]

One solution to this, if it really bothers you, is to make it so the Outer Planes and the Astral Plane can only be reached through Astral Projection

Which raises the question of how celestials, fiends and other astral/outer creatures would achieve "material projection".

Answers might include:

• Finding a vessel (also called a "meat suit") through either forceful possession or voluntary channeling. Initially, the vessel would have its personality and mental stats replaced by those of the astral/outer creature. Later on, the vessel would fully transform into the astral/outer creature, now existing materially. Beings like aasimar and tieflings would have been created for the purpose of hasting this process.
• Hijacking a resurrection spell. An astral/outer creature that keeps a soul from being returned to the Material can answer the call in its place. The result is similar to the previous method, unless the spell is one that doesn't need a corpse. In this case, the spell directly gives the creature its full material form. Thus, spells that bring the dead back to life, not undeath, nonetheless get the stigma of necromancy.
• Being summoned. This typically only provides an ersatz of materiality, limited to the spell's duration.

And much like killing an astral projection only sends a soul back to its material body, killing an astral/outer creature on the Material only sends it back to its home plane.

[Trask]

Which raises the question of how celestials, fiends and other astral/outer creatures would achieve "material projection".

Answers might include:

• Finding a vessel (also called a "meat suit") through either forceful possession or voluntary channeling. Initially, the vessel would have its personality and mental stats replaced by those of the astral/outer creature. Later on, the vessel would fully transform into the astral/outer creature, now existing materially. Beings like aasimar and tieflings would have been created for the purpose of hasting this process.
• Hijacking a resurrection spell. An astral/outer creature that keeps a soul from being returned to the Material can answer the call in its place. The result is similar to the previous method, unless the spell is one that doesn't need a corpse. In this case, the spell directly gives the creature its full material form. Thus, spells that bring the dead back to life, not undeath, nonetheless get the stigma of necromancy.
• Being summoned. This typically only provides an ersatz of materiality, limited to the spell's duration.

And much like killing an astral projection only sends a soul back to its material body, killing an astral/outer creature on the Material only sends it back to its home plane.

"Material projection", I like that. The old chestnut of outerplanar creatures not really dying when you kill them on the material plane actually makes a lot of sense once you have the idea that the outer planes are really not material. Theres a nice symmetry to it and the way astral projection works.

[JackPhoenix]

Except that the Outer Planes, including Limbo, are also realms of thought.

Outer planes are realms of *concepts* (associated with alignments in classic take), not thought.

[Unoriginal]

Outer planes are realms of *concepts* (associated with alignments in classic take), not thought.

I think the point was that those concepts are things you think, not physical objects you interact with (which are reflections of the Inner Planes/of which the Inner Planes are reflections).

[Millstone85]

Outer planes are realms of *concepts* (associated with alignments in classic take), not thought.

I think the point was that those concepts are things you think, not physical objects you interact with (which are reflections of the Inner Planes/of which the Inner Planes are reflections).

Yeah, the nuance escapes me. In any case, 5e calls them realms of thought.

When discussing anything to do with deities, the language used must be highly metaphorical. Their actual homes aren't literally places at all, but exemplify the idea that the Outer Planes are realms of thought and spirit. As with the Elemental Planes, one can imagine the perceptible part of the Outer Planes as a border region, while extensive spiritual regions lie beyond ordinary sensory experience.

I also like the way the second part of OotS#1138 describes the Outer Planes forming from the Astral.

[JackPhoenix]

I think the point was that those concepts are things you think, not physical objects you interact with (which are reflections of the Inner Planes/of which the Inner Planes are reflections).

Not necessarily. You have Beastlands, which is about (certain interpretation of) nature and animals, rather than "thoughts", Limbo, which is pure chaos (not really related to thinking) and others.

[Unoriginal]

Not necessarily. You have Beastlands, which is about (certain interpretation of) nature and animals, rather than "thoughts", Limbo, which is pure chaos (not really related to thinking) and others.

The Beastlands are the concept of the wilderness and Limbo is the concept of chaos. Both only exist because there are people to think of them.

[Tanarii]

It's a realm of thought but creatures can physically exist there? I mean, the githzerai carving pockets of order out of Limbo makes more sense than the githyanki living on the astral plane. In your astral form thought is what allows you to interact with the realm so you use intelligence to control movement and.... that's it? It feels like the writers took a look at the astral plane material, decided it was too complicated to address, and just decided it was whatever they needed it to.

It's a transitive plane. There's not much too it, it's there so you can go from the material realm to the cognitive realms. Kind of like the ethereal let's you connect to the elemental realms.

Over time (meaning editions) it's gotten populated with other interesting stuff you might have as a destination. But what's important is the rules of travel, and threats that might delay, misdirect, or even kill you. Stuff that affects transit.

[Millstone85]

Kind of like the ethereal let's you connect to the elemental realms.

Speaking of which...

If the idea is to make the Astral Plane more like its typical description outside of D&D, then a character's astral form should be able to over right next to that character's body. But that's not someting you can do in the official Great Wheel because the Astral does not overlap the Material like that, the Ethereal does.

So how about deciding that there is only one transitive plane? The etherealness spell would now function like astral projection, except that your astral form appears in the layer of the Astral that overlaps the Material. The Etherealness creature trait would be changed accordingly, except for creatures of which the material existence is only ectoplasmic.

Granted, that's a big nerf all around, and the phase spider might have to be removed entirely.

[Unoriginal]

Speaking of which...

If the idea is to make the Astral Plane more like its typical description outside of D&D, then a character's astral form should be able to over right next to that character's body. But that's not someting you can do in the official Great Wheel because the Astral does not overlap the Material like that, the Ethereal does.

So how about deciding that there is only one transitive plane? The etherealness spell would now function like astral projection, except that your astral form appears in the layer of the Astral that overlaps the Material. The Etherealness creature trait would be changed accordingly, except for creatures of which the material existence is only ectoplasmic.

Granted, that's a big nerf all around, and the phase spider might have to be removed entirely.

I prefer how there is two transitive planes, and that ghosts and the likes exist by being in the wrong one.

[Witty Username]

Help me out here. I've been reading through the DMG and MToF and the Astral Projection spell and it all seems.... poorly conceived.

It's a realm of thought but creatures can physically exist there? I mean, the githzerai carving pockets of order out of Limbo makes more sense than the githyanki living on the astral plane. In your astral form thought is what allows you to interact with the realm so you use intelligence to control movement and.... that's it? It feels like the writers took a look at the astral plane material, decided it was too complicated to address, and just decided it was whatever they needed it to.

Are there any good resources for the astral plane? Should I look at some old Spelljammer material?

The Astral plane is the foremost transitive plane, all forms of planner travel touch the Astral (in 3.5 even teleportation visited the astral plane briefly as part of its function). It is a network of portals that connect to every other plane in existence and multiple places within them. The only society is the Githyanki that use it as a staging area for raiding other planes and fortifying it to block Mind Flayers from using it for travel (and anyone else for that matter).
My favorite bit of Astral projection is that you can still use color pools to travel to other planes and you will still be projected (your astral cord will fuse to the color pool allowing you to remain tethered to your physical body across multiple planes) allowing you to adventure with very low risk if you don't mind missing out on treasure.

The Astral plane can be used to travel between most crystal spheres (some like Eberron are cut off from the planes), I think my favorite lore tidbit is the Githyanki raid on the world of Athas (Dark Sun setting) which caused the Githyanki to declare the whole world off limits because of how bad it went.

[LumenPlacidum]

Is it just a matter of plane shifting twice, which potentially lets you reach any destination on your starting plane?

This is essentially how teleportation used to be. A single spell that shunted you into the Astral Plane, where you then schlepped your way a bit, and then shunted back. Since time doesn't pass on the Astral Plane, you moved instantaneously.

Of course, if time doesn't pass there, then how do you get connected to the correct time when you come back? The Astral must be connected through all times, meaning that everything that has ever happened in the Astral is happening somewhere there. It's just unimaginably vast. Perhaps time is a spatial dimension there? You might be able to travel forward or backwards in time if properly trained.

[Tanarii]

Time passes on the universe. It just doesn't pass in the astral. That just means things don't age in the astral.

[Millstone85]

I prefer how there is two transitive planes, and that ghosts and the likes exist by being in the wrong one.

In the proposed change, ghosts could be said to be stuck in the "Border Astral".

It is a network of portals that connect to every other plane in existence and multiple places within them.

If the table page 47 of the DMG is to be believed, the Astral possesses color pools to the Outer Planes, to the Ethereal, and to the Material, but not to the Energy Planes, to the Elemental Planes, or to the Echo Planes.

I am not entirely sure what the logic for that is. I think the Energy Planes have just really been pushed aside in this edition, since ethereal curtains do not lead to them either. Then the Elemental Planes and the Echo Planes must be considered the purview of the Ethereal. In that case, so should the Material, but it is just that special that the Astral directly connects to it anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

My favorite bit of Astral projection is that you can still use color pools to travel to other planes and you will still be projected

Not true in the 5e version of astral projection, where "your body and possessions are transported along the silver cord".

Which is a whole lot less interesting than what you just described.

Perhaps time is a spatial dimension there? You might be able to travel forward or backwards in time if properly trained.

An alternative approach to the planes that I rather like is having them be epochs of the same universe.

It goes something like this:

• the Ethereal Age, when the universe is pure force waiting to be shaped.
• the Elemental Age, when the universe explodes into primordial essences.
• the Fey Age, when the worlds are young and full of vitality.
• the Draconic Age, with periods of giant or human domination, but mostly dragons.
• the Shadow Age, when the worlds become old and empty.
• the Abstract Age, when all collapses around the conceptual asymptote of the Spire.
• the Astral Age, when the universe evaporates into a mist of memories.

The Ethereal and the Astral also constitute the poles of time itself, allowing travel.

Time passes on the universe. It just doesn't pass in the astral. That just means things don't age in the astral.

So it is not really time per say that stops in the Astral. Maybe it is a weird interaction of your physical body being where your astral form should be.

[Tanarii]

If the table page 47 of the DMG is to be believed, the Astral possesses color pools to the Outer Planes, to the Ethereal, and to the Material, but not to the Energy Planes, to the Elemental Planes, or to the Echo Planes.

I am not entirely sure what the logic for that is. I think the Energy Planes have just really been pushed aside in this edition, since ethereal curtains do not lead to them either. Then the Elemental Planes and the Echo Planes must be considered the purview of the Ethereal. In that case, so should the Material, but it is just that special that the Astral directly connects to it anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, in BECMI the astral only connected to the ethereal and the outer planes, to get to the user planes you had to go Material -> Ethereal -> Astral -> Outer. And then often to another outer, since they were nested. Since the great wheel already existed in AD&D long before this version was published, this was unique and took a bit to wrap my head around / remember when I returned to the edition later on. At the time I owned the ad&d manual of the planes and just used that instead.

Edit: huh, manual of the planes came out 2 years after BECMI's master rules. So it's possible I just didn't run any planar adventures from 85-87. That'd fit, I'd only been running games for 2 years so we didn't have any master level characters. (Technically we never did have ones that earned it.) But I may be wrong that the great wheel came first, I can't recall if it was published elsewhere for AD&D in general terms before MotP.

[Millstone85]

Yeah, in BECMI the astral only connected to the ethereal and the outer planes, to get to the user planes you had to go Material -> Ethereal -> Astral -> Outer.

That would make a lot of sense with the current model.

If I am reading the books correctly, the 5e cosmology is really two wheels:

• the Outer Planes, surrounding the Outlands, linked by the Astral.
• the Elemental Planes, surrounding the Material, linked by the Ethereal.

So, if you could only shift to an adjacent plane, you would go Material -> Ethereal -> Elemental Planes, or Material -> Ethereal -> Astral -> Outer Planes. And that might actually make planar travel more interesting. It would also explain why ghosts would go the Ethereal to begin with.

And then often to another outer, since they were nested.

Like having to go through Avernus and then seven more hells before you could reach Nessus?

[Unoriginal]

If I am reading the books correctly, the 5e cosmology is really two wheels:

• the Outer Planes, surrounding the Outlands, linked by the Astral.
• the Elemental Planes, surrounding the Material, linked by the Ethereal.

It is true it's two wheels, but not quite that configuration.

The Outer Planes, linked by the Astral, surround both the Material Plane (upon which are layered the Feywild and the Shadowfell) and the Outlands.

Also worth noting that the Elemental Planes are themselves surrounded by the Elemental Chaos.

[jjordan]

As I do more research on the subject I'm becoming somewhat daunted. I'd like for combat on the astral plane to rely more heavily on intelligence and wisdom, for instance. I can write up a few homebrew guidelines for this but then I find myself contradicting established rules and lore. Unfortunately I think my issues stem from a dislike of the accreted cosmology of D&D. I could deal with this by creating a separate cosmology. And I could reconcile this separate cosmology with the existing cosmology by casting them as different interpretations/explanations of reality put forward by different schools of thought. The remaining problem is the spells. The standard spells are based on the standard cosmology. I'd have to re-write the spells to accommodate multiple cosmologies or create variations of the spells for each cosmology. The latter seems like the most acceptable choice.

For my part I would prefer the astral plane to be the medium in which reality exists. It is a realm of concepts (the Platonic ideal chair would exist here as a concept, not an actual chair) and reality is given form from this medium (actual chairs, to extend the example). Threads of reality (replacing the idea of planes) move through this medium which surrounds and overlaps them. This makes it possible for threads/planes to be directly connected in places but also require travel through the astral medium.

[Naanomi]

The The Astral plane can be used to travel between most crystal spheres (some like Eberron are cut off from the planes), I think my favorite lore tidbit is the Githyanki raid on the world of Athas (Dark Sun setting) which caused the Githyanki to declare the whole world off limits because of how bad it went.

The adventure based on that isn't bad, degenerated gith and an ancient psionic weapon and all that.

Eberron is a lot like Athas: it is still a crystal sphere, there are just demiplanes around it that one would have to traverse first before getting to the recognizable transitive Planes

[Millstone85]

The Outer Planes, linked by the Astral, surround both the Material Plane (upon which are layered the Feywild and the Shadowfell) and the Outlands.

Then what I am having difficulty with is the Material being surrounded by both the Elemental and Outer Planes, while the Outlands is surrounded only by the Outer Planes. Especially if, as I now see in the DMG, the wheels are concentric.

The default cosmological arrangement presented in the Player's Handbook visualizes the planes as a group of concentric wheels, with the Material Plane and its echoes at the center. The Inner Planes form a wheel around the Material Plane, enveloped in the Ethereal Plane. Then the Outer Planes form another wheel around and behind (or above or below) that one, arranged according to alignment, with the Outlands linking them all.

That means the Material, Echo and Elemental Planes, plus the Ethereal that binds them, all take precedence over the Outlands for the center of the Outer Planes.

Maybe the Outlands orbits an ethereal bubble. Or maybe the Outlands is resting atop the bubble. Or maybe it is under it, giving the impression that the Spire is going to poke the bubble.

For my part I would prefer the astral plane to be the medium in which reality exists. It is a realm of concepts (the Platonic ideal chair would exist here as a concept, not an actual chair) and reality is given form from this medium (actual chairs, to extend the example).

I remember an SCP tale doing something both funny and terrifying with this concept. The idea is that there is a limited amount of the medium and, from that perspective, a single human brain is bigger than an uninhabited galaxy. And so, as the human population grows, the stars are blinking out.

[Naanomi]

Then what I am having difficulty with is the Material being surrounded by both the Elemental and Outer Planes, while the Outlands is surrounded only by the Outer Planes. Especially if, as I now see in the DMG, the wheels are concentric.

The map in the DMG is conceptual, not literal... The inner and outer planets are not 'around' the infinite prime in any meaningful way. It goes inner->ethereal->prime->astral->outer on some dimensional axis; and positive->feywyld->prime->shadowfel->negative on another (more or less, the positive and negative touch everywhereish but only generate echo planes on the prime as far I can tell); with a few demiplanes adrift in some part or another, and the far-realm out there not existing in nonrational ways wherever it does or doesn't

[Trask]

The map in the DMG is conceptual, not literal... The inner and outer planets are not 'around' the infinite prime in any meaningful way. It goes inner->ethereal->prime->astral->outer on some dimensional axis; and positive->feywyld->prime->shadowfel->negative on another (more or less, the positive and negative touch everywhereish but only generate echo planes on the prime as far I can tell); with a few demiplanes adrift in some part or another, and the far-realm out there not existing in nonrational ways wherever it does or doesn't

This. There is a passage in the DMG that says as much, planar models are just that, models. There is no way to know for certain "where" the planes are exactly, or if they even exist in physical space in relation to each other, they aren't like planets in that regard, it's not astronomy, it's more like going to another universe entirely, hence the whole "multiverse" terminology of D&D.

Terms like "inner, outer, upper, and lower" in regards to planes is more of a metaphysical statement of how they exist in relation to the material plane and human existence. It's a metaphysical truth that heaven is above hell, even if there is no literal spatial relationship between them.

[Unoriginal]

Then what I am having difficulty with is the Material being surrounded by both the Elemental and Outer Planes, while the Outlands is surrounded only by the Outer Planes. Especially if, as I now see in the DMG, the wheels are concentric.

[...]

Maybe the Outlands orbits an ethereal bubble. Or maybe the Outlands is resting atop the bubble. Or maybe it is under it, giving the impression that the Spire is going to poke the bubble.

If using the Great Wheel model, I think it's best to conceptualise the Outlands as the end of the axis on which the wheel turns, while the Prime Material is the actual center of the wheel's circumference.

In a metaphysical sense, the Outlands are what happens when the Outer Planes' influences are perfectly balanced, as opposed to the Material Plane from which the Outer Planes radiate

The map in the DMG is conceptual, not literal... The inner and outer planets are not 'around' the infinite prime in any meaningful way. It goes inner->ethereal->prime->astral->outer on some dimensional axis; and positive->feywyld->prime->shadowfel->negative on another (more or less, the positive and negative touch everywhereish but only generate echo planes on the prime as far I can tell); with a few demiplanes adrift in some part or another, and the far-realm out there not existing in nonrational ways wherever it does or doesn't

Indeed. The Great Wheel isn't even the only existing planar model, it's just the most prevalent one because it's mainstream in Sigil.

It's more or less the setting's equivalent of the "atom as planet with electrons gravitating as moon" diagrams.