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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Help phrasing a DM rule

    One of my Rules for DMs is:

    32. Support player ideas that are cool, creative, imaginative, and reasonable. That does not mean supporting ideas that are cool, creative, imaginative, and unreasonable.
    a. The "Rule of Cool" must always be limited by the "Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous".
    c. If the idea is one you can see Aragorn, Conan, Captain America, or James Bond trying, allow it – for the right character. [Don’t let the Conan-clone play the James Bond stunt.]


    I'm not sure that "limited" is the ideal verb for sub-rule a.
    "Governed"?
    "Constrained"?
    "Bounded"?
    Something else?

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    The "Rule of Cool" must always be filtered through the "Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous".

    Culling the outliers while keeping things below a threshold? It’s a low pass filter clearly.
    If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    "... be balanced by..."
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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    a. The "Rule of Cool" must always be tempered by the "Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous".

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    The "Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous" overrides the "Rule of Cool".

    "Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous" shall be observed when applying "Rule of Cool".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kol Korran View Post
    Instead of having an adventure, from which a cool unexpected story may rise, you had a story, with an adventure built and designed to enable the story, but also ensure (or close to ensure) it happens.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    I feel like this is a subset of:

    “In situations not covered by the rule book, the players should be 70% right, 70% of the time”.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    I vote
    "Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous" shall be observed when applying "Rule of Cool".

    or maybe "must be observed"
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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    I would say to throw out any and all references to "rule of cool". Since you already have "don't be ridiculous", anything that passes that filter is fair game.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    I feel like sub-rule (a) is basically redundant. If you are already saying you won't support unreasonable ideas, that should take care of anything that wouldn't pass a "don't be ridiculous" filter.

    Edit to add: Sub-rule (b) has the feel of clarifying and adding to the rule, so it's fine.
    Last edited by Composer99; 2021-03-15 at 07:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    "The Rule of Cool" can only apply if a random 5 year old Girl cannot see the Flaws in the "Cool" Plan. ^^
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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Some really good ideas here. You're all helping me think this through. Keep it coming.

    Xervous, Lord Torath, and Stone Seraph have offered new phrasings that I'm considering.

    lacco36 gave a phrasing that communicates well. But I think it's rhetorically stronger if the final three words of the sentence are "don't be ridiculous".

    Graydeath, that's funny. But I don't object to a cool plan with flaws; I object to one that's nonsense. Jumping over the gnolls running up the stairs at you, hoping to reach the landing behind them and attack from behind? I like it; I see flaws, but it's cool. Knocking down the entire castle on them with your sword? Don't be ridiculous.

    Kraynic and Composer99 are absolutely correct that it's more-or-less redundant. That doesn't bother me, but it's a good observation.

    The purpose of this sub-rule is to explicitly address the "Rule of Cool". It's intentionally redundant, to address a specific misunderstanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by KineticDiplomat View Post
    I feel like this is a subset of:

    “In situations not covered by the rule book, the players should be 70% right, 70% of the time”.
    I like the general approach, but this can also lead the DM astray. The problem with this is that it is so player-dependent. In games I've run, Rob, April, and Wil are 95-100% right, 95-100% of the time. But I've also had players that were 30% right, 30% of the time. [These are also generally the players who think the "Rule of Cool" should allow their characters to ignore the rules.]

    When the DM brings up the "Rule of Cool", it's to allow a clever, flamboyant, swashbuckling move. But all too often, when a player brings it up, he's trying to do something absurd and impossible. That's what this rule is trying to address.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Well, you should clarify youre not palying Scion or Exalted then, cause bringing down a castle with a sword?
    Eminently doable.

    Jumping over the mountain high Werethingy and binding it with twine? Dont be ridiculous, its a kitty, it willö poaly with the Twine isntead ^^
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”

    01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110

    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    lacco36 gave a phrasing that communicates well. But I think it's rhetorically stronger if the final three words of the sentence are "don't be ridiculous".
    At my job that comes with the territory.

    Question: is there an actual "Rule of Don't Be Ridiculous"?

    I assumed there is an actual rule, but if not, then the redundancy is necessary. But as a RAMS guy, I think redundancies in general are not a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Kraynic and Composer99 are absolutely correct that it's more-or-less redundant. That doesn't bother me, but it's a good observation.
    Especially in this case, where it further refines what kind of game players can expect from the GM: one where cool actions that are possible will be encouraged, but ridiculous ones will not be tolerated. Without the "Dare to Be Cool" part, the "Beware Foolish Actions" will most probably make players think it's more about being safe than cool.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kol Korran View Post
    Instead of having an adventure, from which a cool unexpected story may rise, you had a story, with an adventure built and designed to enable the story, but also ensure (or close to ensure) it happens.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    You've convinced me that I'm not really communicating. So now I think my sub-rule should become the main rule. What do you think of this revision?

    The “Rule of Cool” must always be governed and limited by the “Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous.”
    a. Support player ideas that are cool, creative, imaginative, and reasonable. That does not mean supporting ideas that are cool, creative, imaginative, and unreasonable.
    b. If the idea is one you can see Aragorn, Conan, Captain America, or James Bond trying, then allow it – for the right character. [Don’t let the Conan-clone play the James Bond stunt.]

    This makes the strongest point the main rule, followed by two sub-rules that explain, and then give a tool for considering the question.

    Is that better?


    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Well, you should clarify youre not palying Scion or Exalted then, cause bringing down a castle with a sword?
    Eminently doable.

    Jumping over the mountain high Werethingy and binding it with twine? Dont be ridiculous, its a kitty, it willö poaly with the Twine isntead ^^
    That shows the limitations of my example, not my rules. Feel free to substitute an example of your own (as you in fact did).

    And doesn't the title "Rules for DMs" clarify that I'm not talking about Scion or Exalted? Do those games use the term "DM"?

    [To be fair, I have run several games, including Champions, Flashing Blades, TOON, Pendragon, and several versions of D&D. The principles behind these rules apply to all of them, whether they have Dungeon Masters or not. But two rules and one sub-rule are D&D-specific, and the examples I use are all fantasy role-playing examples using D&D terms.]

    I considered calling it "Rules for GMs", but that titles seems less interesting, somehow. I suspect that's because I started in 1975, when D&D was the only rpg.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneSeraph View Post
    a. The "Rule of Cool" must always be tempered by the "Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous".
    I like this word by far the best.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Presume good faith on the part of your players. If they propose something, they think it's reasonable. You owe it to them to take that idea in good faith and think of how it might be possible.

    If it's not possible due to things unknown by the players, it does not have to be accepted. They can find out the information later!

    If there are requirements the players are unaware of, inform them of what would be required. The things that are required might not be possible if the task is actually impossible!

    Outside of hidden information, treat the players thinking something is plausible, and you thinking it's not, as a matter of incomplete communication, and inform them of the things that make their idea implausible.
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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Perhaps 'The "Rule of Cool" must always be subordinate to the "Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous".'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    The problem with this is that it is so player-dependent. In games I've run, Rob, April, and Wil are 95-100% right, 95-100% of the time. But I've also had players that were 30% right, 30% of the time. [These are also generally the players who think the "Rule of Cool" should allow their characters to ignore the rules.]

    When the DM brings up the "Rule of Cool", it's to allow a clever, flamboyant, swashbuckling move.
    The problem with this is that it is so DM-dependent.
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay R View Post
    Is that better?
    I'd say so. The rule posits the existence of RoC and RoDBR simultaneously, as well as giving a rough idea of their relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneSeraph View Post
    a. The "Rule of Cool" must always be tempered by the "Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous".
    Quote Originally Posted by martixy View Post
    I like this word by far the best.
    Ditto. It states that RoC should in fact be used, but with sensible moderation.
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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    I like the rule, although I would officially call out the Balki corollary to the rule of cool. That way, people as old as D&D will remember and get a chuckle, and younger people will ask and you can say in your best Myposian accent, "Don't be ridiculous".

    Of course, it could be only me that remembers that show.
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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
    I like the rule, although I would officially call out the Balki corollary to the rule of cool. That way, people as old as D&D will remember and get a chuckle, and younger people will ask and you can say in your best Myposian accent, "Don't be ridiculous".

    Of course, it could be only me that remembers that show.
    Of course we remember, don't be ridiculous.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Thanks for all the suggestions. It really helps to have all the options laid out.

    I will go with Devils_Advocate's suggestion:

    The “Rule of Cool” must always be subordinate to the “Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous.”
    a. Support player ideas that are cool, creative, imaginative, and reasonable. That does not mean supporting ideas that are cool, creative, imaginative, and unreasonable.
    b. If the idea is one you can see Aragorn, Conan, Captain America, or James Bond trying, then allow it – for the right character. [Don’t let the Conan-clone play the James Bond stunt.]


    [I won't call it the Balki corollary, because I never saw Perfect Strangers, and never knew who Balki was until I followed your link. I started playing D&D in 1975, more than a decade before Perfect Strangers. But you are free to call it anything you like.]

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Seems good to me as is. Mind showing is the first 31 rules?
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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Credence View Post
    I like the rule, although I would officially call out the Balki corollary to the rule of cool. That way, people as old as D&D will remember and get a chuckle, and younger people will ask and you can say in your best Myposian accent, "Don't be ridiculous".

    Of course, it could be only me that remembers that show.
    After watching that whole thing I am now suffering from semantic satiation and that word sounds like greek to me. Literally. Sounds like a greek given name. Hi Ridikolos, I'm dad.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Seems good to me as is. Mind showing is the first 31 rules?
    Here's the version I had as of last May. I'm actually up to 39 rules now.

    I'll probably post the updated version in a couple of months, and ask for more feedback, but I don't plan to do that more than once a year.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Sitting here and nodding sagely to each and every one of them makes me feel like I have passed some great DMing milestone.

    Like I have finally ascended.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    It seems you've decided on your wording, so this might be a day late and a dollar short, but FWIW I would remove 'Don't be ridiculous' altogether. The entire reason for adding the restricting clause is to impose (slightly more) objective limits on the entirely subjective idea of 'Cool.' So, doing that by creating another entirely subjective rule is just gilding the lily.

    You're basically saying saying "Go as far as you want" but also "Not too far." Skip saying "Not too far" and just tell us what too far looks like.

    I would go with something like:

    32. Unless the situation demands otherwise, default to supporting player ideas that are fun, creative, imaginative, and that make the game more interesting and engaging for everyone (including you), even if the rules don't strictly allow them. This is commonly known as 'The Rule of Cool.'
    a. Players invoking the "Rule of Cool" should try to stay within the genre and scope of the game in question. Unless there's a good reason to suspect otherwise, James Bond probably can't use a broadsword and Conan probably can't smooth talk his way into a fancy party. And neither is likely to take raise an army and conquer all the lands (unless it's that kind of game).
    b. The key element of The Rule of Cool isn't the idea, it's the impact the idea has on the game ('make the game more interesting and engaging for everyone'). Ideas, even good ones, that shut down the story ("Let's just call the eagles and have them fly Frodo to Mount Doom") should be valued less than ideas that deepen, broaden, complicate, or develop it ("I try to convince the Ents to come fight Saruman with us.").
    Last edited by truemane; 2021-03-18 at 10:34 AM.
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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Quote Originally Posted by truemane View Post
    It seems you've decided on your wording, so this might be a day late and a dollar short, but FWIW I would remove 'Don't be ridiculous' altogether.
    Don't worry about being late; there's no deadline. I'm not submitting these rules to a publisher. If I want to re-phrase a rule next week, or next year, then I will.

    Quote Originally Posted by truemane View Post
    The entire reason for adding the restricting clause is to impose (slightly more) objective limits on the entirely subjective idea of 'Cool.' So, doing that by creating another entirely subjective rule is just gilding the lily.
    That's an interesting guess about what my reason is, but it's not what I had in mind. Remember, clause a was the main clause last week. I didn't add that clause to the clause about "Don't Be Ridiculous"; I added the DBR clause to it. The DBR clause was originally a specific example. I just recently decided that it was really the main point -- besides being the most interesting sentence.

    Primarily, I want clause a in my head to use when a player demands to be allowed to do something unreasonable. It's not really a restricting clause (it doesn't restrict); it's an explicating clause.

    Quote Originally Posted by truemane View Post
    You're basically saying saying "Go as far as you want" but also "Not too far." Skip saying "Not too far" and just tell us what too far looks like.

    I would go with something like:

    32. Unless the situation demands otherwise, default to supporting player ideas that are fun, creative, imaginative, and that make the game more interesting and engaging for everyone (including you), even if the rules don't strictly allow them. This is commonly known as 'The Rule of Cool.'
    a. Players invoking the "Rule of Cool" should try to stay within the genre and scope of the game in question. Unless there's a good reason to suspect otherwise, James Bond probably can't use a broadsword and Conan probably can't smooth talk his way into a fancy party. And neither is likely to take raise an army and conquer all the lands (unless it's that kind of game).
    b. The key element of The Rule of Cool isn't the idea, it's the impact the idea has on the game ('make the game more interesting and engaging for everyone'). Ideas, even good ones, that shut down the story ("Let's just call the eagles and have them fly Frodo to Mount Doom") should be valued less than ideas that deepen, broaden, complicate, or develop it ("I try to convince the Ents to come fight Saruman with us.").
    For what you are trying to do, that is an excellent phrasing.

    But it's not what I'm trying to do.

    You are trying to write a game rule -- a clear, unambiguous rule that tells strangers exactly what to do. Your description is clear and useful. But it has no zip. That's not a problem for a rulebook rule. People don't read rulebooks for enjoyment, but to learn the rules.

    I'm trying to write a set of reminders for myself, and others like me, that remind me (and them) what the potential pitfalls of DM judgment are. To have value, they need to be interesting enough for me to enjoy re-reading them. "The 'Rule of Cool' must always be subordinate to the 'Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous' " is phrased to be interesting enough that I will be willing to re-read it on a regular basis.

    But as I said, for what you are trying to do, that's a well-written rule.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    OK this is the structure I would use something more like this:

    • When applying the "Rule of Cool" remember that cool thing are often:
      • Plausible: Suddenly summoning Cthulhu is not cool, its just weird.
      • Flavourful: The coolest things a character with do usually come from the less cool things they do.
      • Constructive: While they might destroy a building they will not destroy the campaign.

    Edit to taste and I'll explain why I presented this way. First is Rule of Don't be Ridiculous is long an unwieldy. All the "Rule of" names I know of have one or two syllables (Rule of Rose, Rule of Eleven and even rule of law), you might be able to get away with Rule of Common Sense but even that is pushing it so I recommend you drop it, but that part is definitely taste. But I do think the main point giving context and then three points within it was better than a point, with a rephrasing and an example as sub-points (is there a significant difference between don't be ridiculous and don't support unreasonable ideas). Speaking of which I threw out all the old phrasing to try and give each sub-point a label to be the snappy reminder. And I pulled the third one out of someone else's post to build on the theme of things that might seem cool but are not.

    If I've gone to far how about something like "... cool things are not: ridiculous ... unreasonable ... out-of-character ..." might give you this general structure but let you keep the wording closer to what you have.

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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    I think the reason you don't like how it sounds is that there's just no such thing as a "rule of don't be ridiculous". Cut the wordiness down and simply expand the first line to:

    32. Support player ideas that are cool, creative, and reasonable. These ideas should be plausible within the game's setting, not directly contradict any of the system's rules, and they should be consistent with the character's capabilities and temperament.
    Last edited by WindStruck; 2021-03-21 at 11:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Help phrasing a DM rule

    Quote Originally Posted by kyoryu View Post
    Presume good faith on the part of your players. If they propose something, they think it's reasonable. You owe it to them to take that idea in good faith and think of how it might be possible.
    Having encountered numerous times the ridiculous things that players think in good faith is reasonable, this doesn't seem like a good baseline for judgement to me.

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