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Thread: Help phrasing a DM rule
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2021-03-15, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Help phrasing a DM rule
One of my Rules for DMs is:
32. Support player ideas that are cool, creative, imaginative, and reasonable. That does not mean supporting ideas that are cool, creative, imaginative, and unreasonable.
a. The "Rule of Cool" must always be limited by the "Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous".
c. If the idea is one you can see Aragorn, Conan, Captain America, or James Bond trying, allow it – for the right character. [Don’t let the Conan-clone play the James Bond stunt.]
I'm not sure that "limited" is the ideal verb for sub-rule a.
"Governed"?
"Constrained"?
"Bounded"?
Something else?
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2021-03-15, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
The "Rule of Cool" must always be filtered through the "Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous".
Culling the outliers while keeping things below a threshold? It’s a low pass filter clearly.If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?
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2021-03-15, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
"... be balanced by..."
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2021-03-15, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
a. The "Rule of Cool" must always be tempered by the "Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous".
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2021-03-15, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
The "Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous" overrides the "Rule of Cool".
"Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous" shall be observed when applying "Rule of Cool".Call me Laco or Ladislav (if you need to be formal). Avatar comes from the talented linklele.
Formerly GMing: Riddle of Steel: Soldiers of Fortune
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2021-03-15, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
I feel like this is a subset of:
“In situations not covered by the rule book, the players should be 70% right, 70% of the time”.
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2021-03-15, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-03-15, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
I would say to throw out any and all references to "rule of cool". Since you already have "don't be ridiculous", anything that passes that filter is fair game.
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2021-03-15, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
I feel like sub-rule (a) is basically redundant. If you are already saying you won't support unreasonable ideas, that should take care of anything that wouldn't pass a "don't be ridiculous" filter.
Edit to add: Sub-rule (b) has the feel of clarifying and adding to the rule, so it's fine.Last edited by Composer99; 2021-03-15 at 07:52 PM.
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2021-03-16, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
"The Rule of Cool" can only apply if a random 5 year old Girl cannot see the Flaws in the "Cool" Plan. ^^
A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”
01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110
Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”
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2021-03-16, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
Some really good ideas here. You're all helping me think this through. Keep it coming.
Xervous, Lord Torath, and Stone Seraph have offered new phrasings that I'm considering.
lacco36 gave a phrasing that communicates well. But I think it's rhetorically stronger if the final three words of the sentence are "don't be ridiculous".
Graydeath, that's funny. But I don't object to a cool plan with flaws; I object to one that's nonsense. Jumping over the gnolls running up the stairs at you, hoping to reach the landing behind them and attack from behind? I like it; I see flaws, but it's cool. Knocking down the entire castle on them with your sword? Don't be ridiculous.
Kraynic and Composer99 are absolutely correct that it's more-or-less redundant. That doesn't bother me, but it's a good observation.
The purpose of this sub-rule is to explicitly address the "Rule of Cool". It's intentionally redundant, to address a specific misunderstanding.
I like the general approach, but this can also lead the DM astray. The problem with this is that it is so player-dependent. In games I've run, Rob, April, and Wil are 95-100% right, 95-100% of the time. But I've also had players that were 30% right, 30% of the time. [These are also generally the players who think the "Rule of Cool" should allow their characters to ignore the rules.]
When the DM brings up the "Rule of Cool", it's to allow a clever, flamboyant, swashbuckling move. But all too often, when a player brings it up, he's trying to do something absurd and impossible. That's what this rule is trying to address.
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2021-03-16, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
Well, you should clarify youre not palying Scion or Exalted then, cause bringing down a castle with a sword?
Eminently doable.
Jumping over the mountain high Werethingy and binding it with twine? Dont be ridiculous, its a kitty, it willö poaly with the Twine isntead ^^A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”
01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110
Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”
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2021-03-16, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
At my job that comes with the territory.
Question: is there an actual "Rule of Don't Be Ridiculous"?
I assumed there is an actual rule, but if not, then the redundancy is necessary. But as a RAMS guy, I think redundancies in general are not a bad thing.
Especially in this case, where it further refines what kind of game players can expect from the GM: one where cool actions that are possible will be encouraged, but ridiculous ones will not be tolerated. Without the "Dare to Be Cool" part, the "Beware Foolish Actions" will most probably make players think it's more about being safe than cool.Call me Laco or Ladislav (if you need to be formal). Avatar comes from the talented linklele.
Formerly GMing: Riddle of Steel: Soldiers of Fortune
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2021-03-16, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
You've convinced me that I'm not really communicating. So now I think my sub-rule should become the main rule. What do you think of this revision?
The “Rule of Cool” must always be governed and limited by the “Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous.”
a. Support player ideas that are cool, creative, imaginative, and reasonable. That does not mean supporting ideas that are cool, creative, imaginative, and unreasonable.
b. If the idea is one you can see Aragorn, Conan, Captain America, or James Bond trying, then allow it – for the right character. [Don’t let the Conan-clone play the James Bond stunt.]
This makes the strongest point the main rule, followed by two sub-rules that explain, and then give a tool for considering the question.
Is that better?
That shows the limitations of my example, not my rules. Feel free to substitute an example of your own (as you in fact did).
And doesn't the title "Rules for DMs" clarify that I'm not talking about Scion or Exalted? Do those games use the term "DM"?
[To be fair, I have run several games, including Champions, Flashing Blades, TOON, Pendragon, and several versions of D&D. The principles behind these rules apply to all of them, whether they have Dungeon Masters or not. But two rules and one sub-rule are D&D-specific, and the examples I use are all fantasy role-playing examples using D&D terms.]
I considered calling it "Rules for GMs", but that titles seems less interesting, somehow. I suspect that's because I started in 1975, when D&D was the only rpg.
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2021-03-17, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-03-17, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
Presume good faith on the part of your players. If they propose something, they think it's reasonable. You owe it to them to take that idea in good faith and think of how it might be possible.
If it's not possible due to things unknown by the players, it does not have to be accepted. They can find out the information later!
If there are requirements the players are unaware of, inform them of what would be required. The things that are required might not be possible if the task is actually impossible!
Outside of hidden information, treat the players thinking something is plausible, and you thinking it's not, as a matter of incomplete communication, and inform them of the things that make their idea implausible."Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2021-03-17, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-03-17, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
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2021-03-17, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
I like the rule, although I would officially call out the Balki corollary to the rule of cool. That way, people as old as D&D will remember and get a chuckle, and younger people will ask and you can say in your best Myposian accent, "Don't be ridiculous".
Of course, it could be only me that remembers that show.Campaigning in my home brewed world for the since spring of 2020 - started a campaign journal to keep track of what is going on a few levels in. It starts here: https://www.worldanvil.com/w/the-ter...report-article
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2021-03-17, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2021-03-17, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
Thanks for all the suggestions. It really helps to have all the options laid out.
I will go with Devils_Advocate's suggestion:
The “Rule of Cool” must always be subordinate to the “Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous.”
a. Support player ideas that are cool, creative, imaginative, and reasonable. That does not mean supporting ideas that are cool, creative, imaginative, and unreasonable.
b. If the idea is one you can see Aragorn, Conan, Captain America, or James Bond trying, then allow it – for the right character. [Don’t let the Conan-clone play the James Bond stunt.]
[I won't call it the Balki corollary, because I never saw Perfect Strangers, and never knew who Balki was until I followed your link. I started playing D&D in 1975, more than a decade before Perfect Strangers. But you are free to call it anything you like.]
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2021-03-17, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
Seems good to me as is. Mind showing is the first 31 rules?
Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2021-03-18, 04:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
My attempt at non-awful fumble rules
Arcane Archer minimal fix (maybe not so minimal anymore)
Reworking the Complete Adventurer Tempest PrC
Expanding the Pathfinder Called Shots system
Keyboard shortcuts for d20srd.org
Guide to Optimizing To-Hit
Obscure Psionic Power Index
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2021-03-18, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
Here's the version I had as of last May. I'm actually up to 39 rules now.
I'll probably post the updated version in a couple of months, and ask for more feedback, but I don't plan to do that more than once a year.
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2021-03-18, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
Sitting here and nodding sagely to each and every one of them makes me feel like I have passed some great DMing milestone.
Like I have finally ascended.
My attempt at non-awful fumble rules
Arcane Archer minimal fix (maybe not so minimal anymore)
Reworking the Complete Adventurer Tempest PrC
Expanding the Pathfinder Called Shots system
Keyboard shortcuts for d20srd.org
Guide to Optimizing To-Hit
Obscure Psionic Power Index
🕷
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2021-03-18, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
It seems you've decided on your wording, so this might be a day late and a dollar short, but FWIW I would remove 'Don't be ridiculous' altogether. The entire reason for adding the restricting clause is to impose (slightly more) objective limits on the entirely subjective idea of 'Cool.' So, doing that by creating another entirely subjective rule is just gilding the lily.
You're basically saying saying "Go as far as you want" but also "Not too far." Skip saying "Not too far" and just tell us what too far looks like.
I would go with something like:
32. Unless the situation demands otherwise, default to supporting player ideas that are fun, creative, imaginative, and that make the game more interesting and engaging for everyone (including you), even if the rules don't strictly allow them. This is commonly known as 'The Rule of Cool.'
a. Players invoking the "Rule of Cool" should try to stay within the genre and scope of the game in question. Unless there's a good reason to suspect otherwise, James Bond probably can't use a broadsword and Conan probably can't smooth talk his way into a fancy party. And neither is likely to take raise an army and conquer all the lands (unless it's that kind of game).
b. The key element of The Rule of Cool isn't the idea, it's the impact the idea has on the game ('make the game more interesting and engaging for everyone'). Ideas, even good ones, that shut down the story ("Let's just call the eagles and have them fly Frodo to Mount Doom") should be valued less than ideas that deepen, broaden, complicate, or develop it ("I try to convince the Ents to come fight Saruman with us.").Last edited by truemane; 2021-03-18 at 10:34 AM.
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2021-03-20, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
Don't worry about being late; there's no deadline. I'm not submitting these rules to a publisher. If I want to re-phrase a rule next week, or next year, then I will.
That's an interesting guess about what my reason is, but it's not what I had in mind. Remember, clause a was the main clause last week. I didn't add that clause to the clause about "Don't Be Ridiculous"; I added the DBR clause to it. The DBR clause was originally a specific example. I just recently decided that it was really the main point -- besides being the most interesting sentence.
Primarily, I want clause a in my head to use when a player demands to be allowed to do something unreasonable. It's not really a restricting clause (it doesn't restrict); it's an explicating clause.
For what you are trying to do, that is an excellent phrasing.
But it's not what I'm trying to do.
You are trying to write a game rule -- a clear, unambiguous rule that tells strangers exactly what to do. Your description is clear and useful. But it has no zip. That's not a problem for a rulebook rule. People don't read rulebooks for enjoyment, but to learn the rules.
I'm trying to write a set of reminders for myself, and others like me, that remind me (and them) what the potential pitfalls of DM judgment are. To have value, they need to be interesting enough for me to enjoy re-reading them. "The 'Rule of Cool' must always be subordinate to the 'Rule of Don’t Be Ridiculous' " is phrased to be interesting enough that I will be willing to re-read it on a regular basis.
But as I said, for what you are trying to do, that's a well-written rule.
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2021-03-20, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
OK this is the structure I would use something more like this:
- When applying the "Rule of Cool" remember that cool thing are often:
- Plausible: Suddenly summoning Cthulhu is not cool, its just weird.
- Flavourful: The coolest things a character with do usually come from the less cool things they do.
- Constructive: While they might destroy a building they will not destroy the campaign.
Edit to taste and I'll explain why I presented this way. First is Rule of Don't be Ridiculous is long an unwieldy. All the "Rule of" names I know of have one or two syllables (Rule of Rose, Rule of Eleven and even rule of law), you might be able to get away with Rule of Common Sense but even that is pushing it so I recommend you drop it, but that part is definitely taste. But I do think the main point giving context and then three points within it was better than a point, with a rephrasing and an example as sub-points (is there a significant difference between don't be ridiculous and don't support unreasonable ideas). Speaking of which I threw out all the old phrasing to try and give each sub-point a label to be the snappy reminder. And I pulled the third one out of someone else's post to build on the theme of things that might seem cool but are not.
If I've gone to far how about something like "... cool things are not: ridiculous ... unreasonable ... out-of-character ..." might give you this general structure but let you keep the wording closer to what you have.
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2021-03-21, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule
I think the reason you don't like how it sounds is that there's just no such thing as a "rule of don't be ridiculous". Cut the wordiness down and simply expand the first line to:
32. Support player ideas that are cool, creative, and reasonable. These ideas should be plausible within the game's setting, not directly contradict any of the system's rules, and they should be consistent with the character's capabilities and temperament.Last edited by WindStruck; 2021-03-21 at 11:09 AM.
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2021-03-22, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Help phrasing a DM rule