Girl Genius XXIX: A giant corkboard of continuity madness

[Shining Wrath]

When you find yourself in a place where Tarvek appears to be ethical - you may be in a bad place.

[Spamotron]

The problem I have with Othar is that his plan won't actually solve anything. Even if you buy his premise that the Spark is inherently destructive and bad for humanity. It's been shown that random peasants with no known history of the Spark in their family can break through and become a Spark. So all he'll accomplish is cause anarchy from turning Europa upside down with mass murder of much of its existing power structure, only to have everything go back to square one in a few generations. The fact that Othar himself doesn't realize this is fine, he's insane. The fact that absolutely no one else has pointed it out is annoying.

[The Glyphstone]

The problem I have with Othar is that his plan won't actually solve anything. Even if you buy his premise that the Spark is inherently destructive and bad for humanity. It's been shown that random peasants with no known history of the Spark in their family can break through and become a Spark. So all he'll accomplish is cause anarchy from turning Europa upside down with mass murder of much of its existing power structure, only to have everything go back to square one in a few generations. The fact that Othar himself doesn't realize this is fine, he's insane. The fact that absolutely no one else has pointed it out is annoying.

Most of the people he interacts with frequently are also Sparks or minions, so they're also crazy. The only genuinely rational character in the comic is Von Zinzer.

[Vinyadan]

This is really the most chilling Othar has been. Although, I loved that even the Geister was slack-jawed and Othar praising Tarvek's ethics.

Yea, it's hard to remember that they have known him since he was something like five, and must have seen him grow and pick up the dagger and deceit routine from his family.

[Squire Doodad]

The problem I have with Othar is that his plan won't actually solve anything. Even if you buy his premise that the Spark is inherently destructive and bad for humanity. It's been shown that random peasants with no known history of the Spark in their family can break through and become a Spark. So all he'll accomplish is cause anarchy from turning Europa upside down with mass murder of much of its existing power structure, only to have everything go back to square one in a few generations. The fact that Othar himself doesn't realize this is fine, he's insane. The fact that absolutely no one else has pointed it out is annoying.

The Baron had him trapped specifically so he could read his 50 page dissertation on the subject to Othar. Sadly, he was distracted, and the Baron didn't think of making sure Othar's reward for listening - a doohickey in just the right place for Othar to have a free gallivanting around the castle - was out of reach. Alas, he managed to escape before the Baron could begin explaining the ideal targeted Spark-handling system.

[Radar]

(...) The fact that Othar himself doesn't realize this is fine, he's insane. The fact that absolutely no one else has pointed it out is annoying.

As you said: Othar is insane and pretty much everyone who got to know him realizes this as well. Can you really argue with an insane person? A spark at that, so with that much more ego and blind conviction to his ideas?

[Vinyadan]

As you said: Othar is insane and pretty much everyone who got to know him realizes this as well. Can you really argue with an insane person? A spark at that, so with that much more ego and blind conviction to his ideas?

Othar might be in the mindset of doing an experiment, like that "give me four thousand orphans, a labyrinth, and enough cheese" dude. Only his experiment is killing all sparks.
Besides, the fact that there will be more sparks might be something he is perfectly aware of, and pretending to suddenly realise it would be the perfect justification to cop-out from killing himself at the end.

[Shining Wrath]

The Baron's plan for controlling mad boys - finding out where in the brain the Spark is located so it can be removed if necessary - is a little less lethal than Othar's, but does require debilitating experimentation on unwilling human subjects, which is also usually adjudged evil. Which one is worse I leave to your own personal ethos.

I suspect the Baron has drilled holes in more skulls than Othar has killed.

Now consider that everyone considers The Other to be much worse than the Baron or Othar. We don't know exactly what The Other's crimes were before she disappeared (other than revenants), but let's just pause for a moment and consider what they might be. And maybe be grateful that we don't know the details.

[Manga Shoggoth]

The Baron's plan for controlling mad boys - finding out where in the brain the Spark is located so it can be removed if necessary - is a little less lethal than Othar's, but does require debilitating experimentation on unwilling human subjects, which is also usually adjudged evil. Which one is worse I leave to your own personal ethos.

I suspect the Baron has drilled holes in more skulls than Othar has killed.

Well, we have evidence of exactly one: Vapnoople. Othar was on the table, but there is a possibility that the Baron intended Othar to escape (I recall a comment in the novel, but I can't find it in the comic) - my feeling is that the Baron was in the habit of using Othar to deal with some of the worst sparks.

I don't doubt that there are more, but it does seem to be something he limits to the worst specimins - the others he finds used for. He always knows the right monster for the job, after all...


Oh, and it appears that the Night has a thousand eyes. Well, twenty-eight*, at least...



* 30 counting the dancer, but where's everybody going to be looking...

[Traab]

The Baron's plan for controlling mad boys - finding out where in the brain the Spark is located so it can be removed if necessary - is a little less lethal than Othar's, but does require debilitating experimentation on unwilling human subjects, which is also usually adjudged evil. Which one is worse I leave to your own personal ethos.

I suspect the Baron has drilled holes in more skulls than Othar has killed.

Now consider that everyone considers The Other to be much worse than the Baron or Othar. We don't know exactly what The Other's crimes were before she disappeared (other than revenants), but let's just pause for a moment and consider what they might be. And maybe be grateful that we don't know the details.

On the one hand you have human experimentation with an unknown number of subjects. On the other you have genocide as a man murders his way back and forth across the continent (planet? Does he also intend to go to america, the moon, mars, africa, etc?) I personally think the barons idea is less horrifying as his goal isnt to kill everyone with the spark no matter what they do with it. And his experiments almost has to be limited in number because there are only so many parts of the brain you can remove before you run out of spaces the spark could be. He will probably determine with 100 or less if his goal is feasible or if its just a lobotomy with extra steps. And if it DOES work, ie I would assume his ideal goal is perfectly normal brain but no spark, then he would only be using it on the true sparky monsters out there. He doesnt want to cull the spark after all. So yeah, othar is WAY worse as his is an endless crusade of blood and death, while the baron is still a horrible human being but not on par with othar. At least not for that reason.

[Fyraltari]

And if it DOES work, ie I would assume his ideal goal is perfectly normal brain but no spark, then he would only be using it on the true sparky monsters out there. He doesnt want to cull the spark after all.

Uh, I think he DOES want to eradicate the Spark. If he were only planning to lobotomize the worst ones, why try to find the part of the brain that produces the Spark? Easier to just execute them.

[Gez]

Well, we have evidence of exactly one: Vapnoople. Othar was on the table, but there is a possibility that the Baron intended Othar to escape (I recall a comment in the novel, but I can't find it in the comic)

This is Gil's hypothesis here, referring to the apparently exasperation-induced gesture of the Baron here.

[Radar]

Well, we have evidence of exactly one: Vapnoople. Othar was on the table, but there is a possibility that the Baron intended Othar to escape (I recall a comment in the novel, but I can't find it in the comic) - my feeling is that the Baron was in the habit of using Othar to deal with some of the worst sparks.

Even Gil commented that Othar escaped thanks to a scalpel conveniently placed by the Baron. But I do not think it was so that Othar could escape. Keep in mind that he was later chained up in Baron's lab again and only saved by that fencing clank modified by Agatha.

And a working mind without the spark does seem to be Baron's goal for dangerous people as he is trying hard to keep the quality of life after the brain drilling.

[Shining Wrath]

Well, we have evidence of exactly one: Vapnoople. Othar was on the table, but there is a possibility that the Baron intended Othar to escape (I recall a comment in the novel, but I can't find it in the comic) - my feeling is that the Baron was in the habit of using Othar to deal with some of the worst sparks.

I don't doubt that there are more, but it does seem to be something he limits to the worst specimins - the others he finds used for. He always knows the right monster for the job, after all...


Oh, and it appears that the Night has a thousand eyes. Well, twenty-eight*, at least...



* 30 counting the dancer, but where's everybody going to be looking...

Albia certainly spoke of the Baron having operated on more than Vapnoople. She basically told Gil she'd let him live because he didn't do what his father did as "research". And when Klaus told Dr. Beetle he "had a use for him" and Beetle responded with "No! Anything than that!" and threw a bomb at Agatha - well, I think that we can take it as given that the word was out what the Baron's research looked like, and Dr. Beetle was quite willing to die rather than be drilled.

Even Gil commented that Othar escaped thanks to a scalpel conveniently placed by the Baron. But I do not think it was so that Othar could escape. Keep in mind that he was later chained up in Baron's lab again and only saved by that fencing clank modified by Agatha.

And a working mind without the spark does seem to be Baron's goal for dangerous people as he is trying hard to keep the quality of life after the brain drilling.

So he's not a complete monster. Still, brain modification on unwilling subjects is on my person list of "bad things to do".

[Divayth Fyr]

So he's not a complete monster. Still, brain modification on unwilling subjects is on my person list of "bad things to do".

Better or worse than "kill all the people who happen to have a certain condition (for a lack of a better word)"? And how many alternatives are there that aren't killing them on the spot? As evidenced by Othar, some Sparks can be quite good at escaping. Imagine one of Othar's skill at that, but focused on something more destructive/dangerous...

[Manga Shoggoth]

This is Gil's hypothesis here, referring to the apparently exasperation-induced gesture of the Baron here.

Ah! Much obliged.

As Shining Wrath notes, we do (for example) see Albia and Beetle's reactions. Beetle's one is only obvious in hindsight, though, and neither are actual examples. Really, my point is that it isn't a central plank of the Baron's character.

On the other hand, we have Othar attempting to kill Agatha, and later expressing disappointment at missing DuMedd after Agatha tells him he was a spark, and in the story Othar is all about killing sparks. And being an annoying hero.

[Gez]

Even Gil commented that Othar escaped thanks to a scalpel conveniently placed by the Baron.

Beat ya to it!

But I do not think it was so that Othar could escape. Keep in mind that he was later chained up in Baron's lab again and only saved by that fencing clank modified by Agatha.

In this case, I do believe it was specifically to let him escape. Take a look at the sequence, each time he prepares to work on Othar it's with a different tool. Why change protocol constantly? He's not in the madness place, and don't tell me Klaus is the kind of character who forgot what they were doing.
Brain corer
Lil Rippy
Simple scalpel
And then look at his little smirk when he ends up punching Othar right into Gil's lab.

So yes, the likelihood that he was just toying with Othar until he could get a pretext to send him to fight Gil is very high.

[Vinyadan]

Ah! Much obliged.
As Shining Wrath notes, we do (for example) see Albia and Beetle's reactions. Beetle's one is only obvious in hindsight, though, and neither are actual examples. Really, my point is that it isn't a central plank of the Baron's character.

The problem is that the story stopped dealing with that side of him, as Klaus found himself constantly dealing with damage control while running after Agatha.

To me, it definitely looked like something he had been doing for a while. He was a real scholar of the spark: he could tell authors from styles, he was known for improving on the work of other sparks, he kept a bunch of young sparks on his castle (while presumably observing them), and he wanted to find out the physiological elements of the spark, so he experimented on the brains of sparks he considered dangerous and unredeemable for his cause.

[Radar]

In this case, I do believe it was specifically to let him escape. Take a look at the sequence, each time he prepares to work on Othar it's with a different tool. Why change protocol constantly? He's not in the madness place, and don't tell me Klaus is the kind of character who forgot what they were doing.
Brain corer
Lil Rippy
Simple scalpel
And then look at his little smirk when he ends up punching Othar right into Gil's lab.

So yes, the likelihood that he was just toying with Othar until he could get a pretext to send him to fight Gil is very high.

Toy with him and test Gil on his fighting skills for sure, but not let him completely escape. After all, it was "back to the chains with you" once Gil moped the the floor with Othar.

I might have not been clear in my writing.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm comfortable with decrying both the Baron and Othar as people who do evil things but also have redeeming features.
Since Othar's role is often comic relief that tends to mask his evil, while the Baron being ruthlessly authoritarian tends to cast his evil in sharp relief.
The question of what Othar would do with the resources of the Wulfenbach Empire at its height is worth asking, and the answer is probably "very, very bad things".

The coalition opposing The Other is held together by duct tape and baling wire. Martellus is obviously acting independently, Othar will try to kill as many Sparks as he can if it appears The Other is beaten back for now, the train monks prize their independence, Albia is very likely seeking advantage for England on the Continent, and so on.

Now - does Zola have access to any of the special Spark-controlling wasps?

[Vinyadan]

A couple details in this page that I hadn't understood earlier: https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/com...?date=20040809

"History repeats itself": not because of the fiancé thing, but because of the knocking out thing. Wulfenbach was made unconscious by his lover.

"Barry came back":

Spoiler

Show

Beetle though that the Baron was up to something very nefarious, and Barry apparently had been disappeared by the Baron. Both of these accusations were news for the Baron, so he was most likely innocent. Now we have a wasped Klaus playing around with time fields, plus we know that there will be some time travel. So Klaus might actually be so desperate to kill Agatha as to go back in time and attack the Castle and trap the Heterodyne Boys when they try to come after him.

[Ellen]

I'm not comfortable with the Baron messing around with people's mental faculties. But, he looked at the three choices, A) Let a spark like Vapnoodle run free and potentially destroy the world, B) Kill him, C) Render him harmless (and take notes on ways to neutralize the spark without all the unpleasant side effects for the next time).

I don't like C. But, maybe points for looking for an alternative to B? Or not.

Seems like there should be a much better option D. . . .

[TeChameleon]

... yeah. Judging by what Vapnoople did literally the second he regained his faculties, letting him run free was simply not an option. Nor was locking him up particularly feasible, considering what he did was in the middle of hostile territory, facing down a nascent godling. Turning him into the sweet, harmless Dr. Dim may have been the best non-lethal option available, I'm really not sure. Given the nature of Vapnoople's monomania, I'm wondering if even just turning him into the same person, but sparkless, would end up with him going clocktower sniper if allowed to run around willy-nilly.

The whole 'criminal reform via lobotimization' is an unfortunate artefact of the classic pulps (see Doc Savage's 'surgical' rehabilitation, for example), but in this scenario... the Baron is a largely ruthless pragmatist in an era of Victorian-esque morality; from his point of view, sacrificing a (relative) few unhinged monsters to learn how to turn reality-warping lunatics into non-reality warping (hopefully?) sane people would be a bargain.

[Radar]

I'm not comfortable with the Baron messing around with people's mental faculties. But, he looked at the three choices, A) Let a spark like Vapnoodle run free and potentially destroy the world, B) Kill him, C) Render him harmless (and take notes on ways to neutralize the spark without all the unpleasant side effects for the next time).

I don't like C. But, maybe points for looking for an alternative to B? Or not.

Seems like there should be a much better option D. . . .

That is one of the problems with being in a position of power: whether you have a good solution or not, you need to act and the consequences are still on you. It is related to the conversation Agatha had with the circus master here concerning the revenants in Passholdt.

[Rodin]

... yeah. Judging by what Vapnoople did literally the second he regained his faculties, letting him run free was simply not an option. Nor was locking him up particularly feasible, considering what he did was in the middle of hostile territory, facing down a nascent godling. Turning him into the sweet, harmless Dr. Dim may have been the best non-lethal option available, I'm really not sure. Given the nature of Vapnoople's monomania, I'm wondering if even just turning him into the same person, but sparkless, would end up with him going clocktower sniper if allowed to run around willy-nilly.

The whole 'criminal reform via lobotimization' is an unfortunate artefact of the classic pulps (see Doc Savage's 'surgical' rehabilitation, for example), but in this scenario... the Baron is a largely ruthless pragmatist in an era of Victorian-esque morality; from his point of view, sacrificing a (relative) few unhinged monsters to learn how to turn reality-warping lunatics into non-reality warping (hopefully?) sane people would be a bargain.

It's also worth noting that the Baron never turns down a potentially useful tool.

A strong, relatively stable Spark who is already in charge of a city? Leave him in place like Dr. Beetle or Aaronev Sturmvoraus.

A lesser Spark who is smart enough to give up when the Baron defeats him? He gets hired. We see many Sparks working for the Baron, as well as many other troops using Spark-designed weaponry. Useful constructs and monsters aren't destroyed, they're recruited.

It seems like the Baron reserves brain surgery for only the most intransigent and/or dangerous Sparks. Othar is both exceptionally dangerous and fanatically opposed to working with the Baron, whose plans don't include wiping out every Spark in the world.

I wouldn't even say Baron Wulfenbach counts as Evil. He's "the ends justify the means" personified. He wants peace and prosperity for Europe, and isn't picky about how he achieves that. For non-Sparks he drops an appropriately sized army on them, punishes the ringleaders and then threatens to do it again if anyone acts up. Sparks are a thornier problem, because they are inherently chaotic. That brings him back to the choices of "kill them all" or "figure out a long term solution". The moral problems with attempting to find that solution don't even occur to him - he's after the result, which is a safer Europe and more stable Sparks.

[wingnutx]

I wouldn't even say Baron Wulfenbach counts as Evil. He's "the ends justify the means" personified. He wants peace and prosperity for Europe, and isn't picky about how he achieves that. For non-Sparks he drops an appropriately sized army on them, punishes the ringleaders and then threatens to do it again if anyone acts up. Sparks are a thornier problem, because they are inherently chaotic. That brings him back to the choices of "kill them all" or "figure out a long term solution". The moral problems with attempting to find that solution don't even occur to him - he's after the result, which is a safer Europe and more stable Sparks.

"So I stopped it. And I did it MY way this time."

"No more negotiating. No more promises. No more second chances."

"And I did it alone. Because I had to. And it worked."

https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/com...6#.YTz--J1KhGM

[SZbNAhL]

Speaking of Othar, somebody else has probably said this elsewhere, but I've just been struck with a thought regarding his current Twitter adventure.

Spoiler

Show

The Shrike is a skilled female sword fighter with an interest in Holfung-Borzoi, who Othar describes as having "the regal bearing that is taught to royalty from a very young age". She's also clearly not a baseline human, but doesn't have the scars normally found on a construct. We know Klaus was planning to revive a certain Holfung-Borzoian princess with a talent for fencing who'd been killed with a small wound that would leave few scars. Wonder if we'll end up re-meeting any other former Castle Wulfenbach students.

[geoduck]

Speaking of Othar, somebody else has probably said this elsewhere, but I've just been struck with a thought regarding his current Twitter adventure.

Spoiler

Show

The Shrike is a skilled female sword fighter with an interest in Holfung-Borzoi, who Othar describes as having "the regal bearing that is taught to royalty from a very young age". She's also clearly not a baseline human, but doesn't have the scars normally found on a construct. We know Klaus was planning to revive a certain Holfung-Borzoian princess with a talent for fencing who'd been killed with a small wound that would leave few scars. Wonder if we'll end up re-meeting any other former Castle Wulfenbach students.

Spoiler

Show

At this point it would be a bigger surprise if it's not Zulenna.

[Shining Wrath]

It's also worth noting that the Baron never turns down a potentially useful tool.

A strong, relatively stable Spark who is already in charge of a city? Leave him in place like Dr. Beetle or Aaronev Sturmvoraus.

A lesser Spark who is smart enough to give up when the Baron defeats him? He gets hired. We see many Sparks working for the Baron, as well as many other troops using Spark-designed weaponry. Useful constructs and monsters aren't destroyed, they're recruited.

It seems like the Baron reserves brain surgery for only the most intransigent and/or dangerous Sparks. Othar is both exceptionally dangerous and fanatically opposed to working with the Baron, whose plans don't include wiping out every Spark in the world.

I wouldn't even say Baron Wulfenbach counts as Evil. He's "the ends justify the means" personified. He wants peace and prosperity for Europe, and isn't picky about how he achieves that. For non-Sparks he drops an appropriately sized army on them, punishes the ringleaders and then threatens to do it again if anyone acts up. Sparks are a thornier problem, because they are inherently chaotic. That brings him back to the choices of "kill them all" or "figure out a long term solution". The moral problems with attempting to find that solution don't even occur to him - he's after the result, which is a safer Europe and more stable Sparks.

The Baron, in other words, is a classic example of a BBEG who has convinced themselves that they can do anything, because their motives are for the greater good. And I'm going to draw a distinction between destroying a city full of inhuman monsters and drilling holes in people's heads. I'd like to remind you that Albia, who is not entirely nice, despises the Baron.

[TeChameleon]

The Baron, in other words, is a classic example of a BBEG who has convinced themselves that they can do anything, because their motives are for the greater good. And I'm going to draw a distinction between destroying a city full of inhuman monsters and drilling holes in people's heads. I'd like to remind you that Albia, who is not entirely nice, despises the Baron.

Albia's reason for possibly despising Klaus (the actual quote is "As long as Albia lives, England is closed to Klaus.", no mention of any sort of dislike) is... well, it can be reasonably inferred to have very, very little to do with disapproving of his experiments.

I.e. a bad breakup.

Anyways, Klaus is an interesting, complex character; I'm somewhat on the fence about him, but I'd say that the single instance of brain coring that we have confirmation on (it's not 100% clear whether or not Othar was a genuine attempt at such, given the circumstances) was one who would have otherwise undoubtedly been killed. Whether or not brain coring is better or worse than death, I can't really judge, but that was the only safe alternative when dealing with Vapnoople. He was simply too powerful, too dangerous and too mad to be dealt with any other way.