OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

A full attack from Serini (four bolts, 40-50 damage each) is likely to drop Belkar (poor AC), Elan (poor hit points), or Vaarsuvius (both, unless Stoneskin is up); and is not likely to drop Haley (high AC), Roy (high hit points), or Durkon (both).

Minor nitpick: I don't think Elan exactly has good AC either.

Conversely, a full attack from Belkar, Roy, or Durkon is likely to drop Serini; and a single Forcecage or Power Word from V could put her out of the fight. Because she's so outnumbered, Serini's odds are not good, unless she uses guerilla tactics. Then again, she's a high-level rogue, so of course she'll use guerilla tactics.

Yeah, I guess I was exaggerating when I expected her to KO half the party in the first couple of rounds, but my point about "epic rogue ambushing non-epic characters, and on her turf no less" still stands.

[arimareiji]

Serini is very obviously geared-up, but I wonder: Why would that require that her plan can only involve combat?

This is her home base, and she's had years to perfect any traps and defense plans she wants to set up.

[TRH]

Serini is very obviously geared-up, but I wonder: Why would that require that her plan can only involve combat?

This is her home base, and she's had years to perfect any traps and defense plans she wants to set up.

I don't think anyone is assuming she'll only rely on her weapons here. An ambush and sleeping potion might suffice against two opponents, but to bring down seven she'll need more up her sleeve than she used against O-Chul and Lien. Not least since Roy and Durkon could probably shrug off that potion, and Vaarsuvius might be straight-up immune, since it's a sleep effect.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think anyone is assuming she'll only rely on her weapons here. An ambush and sleeping potion might suffice against two opponents, but to bring down seven she'll need more up her sleeve than she used against O-Chul and Lien. Not least since Roy and Durkon could probably shrug off that potion, and Vaarsuvius might be straight-up immune, since it's a sleep effect.

The entire dungeon is her turf and she probably has a fackload of magic items.

They're doomed.

[ebarde]

Serini is gonna re-enact home alone and the order are the wet bandits

[TRH]

The entire dungeon is her turf and she probably has a fackload of magic items.

They're doomed.

Not unlikely, I'm just saying we don't know all the specifics of that doom just yet.

[Skull the Troll]

I'm really not getting this one. How does Serini know the world is going to blow up? She must have been spying on the Order? But how, They have only been there what appears to be a few hours and she appeared to have been spending those hours brewing a potion. As others have said she seems to know a lot about Soon's gate going down too despite the room being shielded against scrying. I know there are literally dozens of ways for her to have gotten this info but we haven't been made privy to any of it. (Yet) If she's willing to take on the Paladins and the Order why not Team Evil? Durkon found Redcloak alone, Serini could have done the same and - POOF - no more plan. Her motivation is really strange here. She's acting like those police sergeants in 80's films. Oppositional for the flimsiest, dumbest reasons. The only thing that makes any sense to me at this point is that maybe she is pathologically afraid of Zykon. (with good reason) and can't imagine any scenario where he flat out loses with the gate staying up. Even at that though her reasoning is flawed. Zykon failed to kill her when she was by herself and successfully ambushed her, her plus two paladins plus the group that's thwarted him 3 times already? The fact that she cant see that makes her craven, or stupid, or both.

[dancrilis]

I'm really not getting this one.

Serini has come to realise that Xykon is the hero the world needs, just not the one it wants but the one it deserves.

She has figured out the great truth of the narrative:

Here is a man that has been put down by people all his life, but who consistently rose above their petty insults to make something of himself.

Than he is nearing the end of his life and he finds out that the gods have been playing everyone as chumps since before the beginning of the world and he is offered a chance to even the playing field.

Here is one man who is reviled for daring to have the audacity to indicate that regular people can have control over their own lives - that ultra-powerful outsiders can be stood up to.
He should be a beacon of hope in the darkness - a shining light for the mortal races to look to and admire. But instead for his idiosyncrasies he is hated and feared.

Truly he is the tragic hero of the Order of the Stick.

[danielxcutter]

...Damn you, Poe's Law.

[Ionathus]

The entire dungeon is her turf and she probably has a fackload of magic items.

They're doomed.

I'm actually betting on The Order. I think this could be a great opportunity for another fight scene early in the book, and also a great way to show how The Order has gotten better at working together as a team.

Doesn't mean I don't expect Serini to give them absolute hell, though.

[danielxcutter]

I'm actually betting on The Order. I think this could be a great opportunity for another fight scene early in the book, and also a great way to show how The Order has gotten better at working together as a team.

Doesn't mean I don't expect Serini to give them absolute hell, though.

I suspect that V may end up getting sucked into another one of the absolute hells, so yes either way.

[Gallowglass]

I'm really not getting this one. How does Serini know the world is going to blow up? She must have been spying on the Order? But how, They have only been there what appears to be a few hours and she appeared to have been spending those hours brewing a potion. As others have said she seems to know a lot about Soon's gate going down too despite the room being shielded against scrying. I know there are literally dozens of ways for her to have gotten this info but we haven't been made privy to any of it. (Yet) If she's willing to take on the Paladins and the Order why not Team Evil? Durkon found Redcloak alone, Serini could have done the same and - POOF - no more plan. Her motivation is really strange here. She's acting like those police sergeants in 80's films. Oppositional for the flimsiest, dumbest reasons. The only thing that makes any sense to me at this point is that maybe she is pathologically afraid of Zykon. (with good reason) and can't imagine any scenario where he flat out loses with the gate staying up. Even at that though her reasoning is flawed. Zykon failed to kill her when she was by herself and successfully ambushed her, her plus two paladins plus the group that's thwarted him 3 times already? The fact that she cant see that makes her craven, or stupid, or both.

Okay. Take this from the top.

1. She probably doesn't know the Gods will unmake the world if the gate is about to be destroyed, that's true. What she DOES know is that if the gate is destroyed, the snarl will be loosed. As a member of the Order of the Scribble, she knows that the Snarl can destroy the world. that's the thing she fears the most. It's a strong possibility that she knows more about the snarl than anyone else in the narrative so far. So, for her, her first priority is to keep that from happening. To keep that from happening she needs to keep the gate intact.

2. She probably doesn't know that redcloak's plan is different than Xykons. She may or may not. It doesn't really matter though. She knows that neither of them want to destroy the gate and will do anything they can to keep the gate intact (so they can use it for their own purposes).

3. She has SOLID evidence that fighting Xykon leads to gate destruction. It's happened 4 times now. 4 times. The chuckleheads on the side of good are the ones destroying gates. Because they CAN'T beat Xykon any other way. You think she should think "well if I team up with the paladins and the stick, together we're sure to succeed"? That's madness.

So based on what she probably knows (and not really affected if she knows more) her plan is solidly, profoundly, logical.

I want to keep the gate intact.
Maybe Xykon will find it, maybe he won't.
If he finds it, the worst that happens is he becomes ruler of the world for a short while.
If these chuckleheads try to stop him, there is a very real probability the gate gets destroyed. Which has happened 4 times already.

[Dion]

maybe she is pathologically afraid of Zykon [...] and can't imagine any scenario where he flat out loses with the gate staying up.

Yes. She knows that’s exactly what happened four times in a row already.

She’s not Julio. She’s not in love with narrative structure. She’s the opposite. She’s working on experience and facts, not what makes a good story.

She sees that the same thing happened four times before: people tried to stop Xykon, they failed, and the gate was destroyed.

Instead of saying “oh, I’m just living in a story, and in a story the good guys win if they just try again!”, she says “I’m living in a world where if the dice went through way four times, they’re going to go that way a fifth time if you try again. Let’s find another way.”

And the she set out to find a way that didn’t involve destroying the whole world so some paladins could feel like they protected their honor or whatever silly stuff people talk about in stories.

[CountDVB]

One disadvantage Serini has is that the Order knows that the dungeon was designed by a rogue so they would be onto her and as we saw with the others, there are pretty big flaws if you know where to look.

[danielxcutter]

One disadvantage Serini has is that the Order knows that the dungeon was designed by a rogue so they would be onto her and as we saw with the others, there are pretty big flaws if you know where to look.

And a major advantage she has over them is that they have no idea that she, an epic rogue incredibly good at getting the drop on someone, is going to jump them.

[bunsen_h]

Rapid Reload. That’s Core. Also for hand crossbows, there’s Hand Crossbow Focus, which is Rapid Reload(hand crossbow) and Weapon Focus(hand crossbow) in one.

Serini: "Sneak Attack! Rapid Reload! Sneak Attack! Rapid Reload! Sneak Attack! Rapid Reload! Sneak Attack! Rapid Reload!"

"You done?"

Serini: "No! Sneak Attack! Rapid Reload!"

"Come on, you can't do that!"

Serini: "Hey, it was worth a try."

[danielxcutter]

Serini: "Sneak Attack! Rapid Reload! Sneak Attack! Rapid Reload! Sneak Attack! Rapid Reload! Sneak Attack! Rapid Reload!"

"You done?"

Serini: "No! Sneak Attack! Rapid Reload!"

"Come on, you can't do that!"

Serini: "Hey, it was worth a try."

...If she took Rapid Shot and also has Haste on her or the hand crossbow's got Speed on it... actually she can, assuming she can Sneak attack.

[Cinnibar]

She's seen a pattern of behaviour from them (never mind that technically it was only the one gate the Paladins consciously chose to destroy), and from her perspective she sees no reason for that behaviour to change just because they say they really mean it this time.

And with the paladins immediately trying to justify their actions as the only possible, yeah, I wouldn't trust them not to have guilty feelings about doing 'what's right' later. Not that the helps anyone else.

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, to be fair, "destroying one gate out of many to prevent an evil lich from conquering the world" sounds ethical to me, and quite different than "choose between an evil lich conquering the world or the world being unmade".

In the previous gate destructions, the world was not directly at stake.

Lirian's gate was unmade with no participation from the Order or from paladins.

Dorukan's and Girard's gate had no participation from paladins. Those were destroyed by the Order of the Stick, the first unintentionally, the second intentionally.

Soon's gate was destroyed by paladins, with no participation from the Order.

Seems a bit precipitated to assume that the paladins and the Order would destroy the last gate.

[Peelee]

Well, to be fair, "destroying one gate out of many to prevent an evil lich from conquering the world" sounds ethical to me, and quite different than "choose between an evil lich conquering the world or the world being unmade".

"Like a hole in the prison holding a being capable of destroying the universe" sounds more ethical to you than "let some ass be a king for a bit"?

Snarl doesn't necessarily need all the rifts open and gates blown to be a threat. As we saw in the desert and in the Elven forests, the Snarl can be a threat with any rifts open or gates blown. Just because the Snarl didn't happen to break out yet doesnt mean they weren't absolutely choosing between "an evil lich conquering the world or the world being unmade". Heck, the gods even helps a vote on whether or not to even wait for the last Gate, and "don't pull the plug" just barely squeaked through!

Focusing on "yeah but this is the last one so it's the only one that counts as far as furthering the destruction of the world" is shown in-comic to be objectively wrong.

The Gate destroyers have been lucky, not right.

[bguy]

3. She has SOLID evidence that fighting Xykon leads to gate destruction. It's happened 4 times now. 4 times. The chuckleheads on the side of good are the ones destroying gates. Because they CAN'T beat Xykon any other way.

While it's true that 4 gates have been destroyed, it's not because the forces of good can't beat Xykon. It was the forces of evil that destroyed Lirian's Gate. And Xykon actually was beaten at Dourkon's gate and Soon's gate. Both of those gates were (unnecessarily) destroyed by people going rogue not because Xykon was unstoppable.

You think she should think "well if I team up with the paladins and the stick, together we're sure to succeed"? That's madness.

Well the proper lesson from Dourkon and Soon's gates would be that you can both defeat Xykon and keep the Gate safe as long as all the defenders work together instead of having someone go off half-cocked on their own, so teaming up with the Order and the paladins is absolutely the correct option. Indeed Serini is actually making the same mistakes that Elan and Miko made by acting unilaterally instead of working with the others.

[Metastachydium]

"Like a hole in the prison holding a being capable of destroying the universe" sounds more ethical to you than "let some ass be a king for a bit"?

Like I said before, Xykon wants to rule the world through using the Snarl, though (which would also mean that he wouldn't be king for just a bit). Even the Order hasn't known what the actual deal with the ritual is until very recently, so if O-Chul had decided to just hand over the Gate to Xykon or if Roy had decided to do the same in the West, they would have done so under the assumption that they hand over control over a god-killing, universe-eating abomination to a Chaotic Evil monster who will use it (likely erasing a fair number of people from existence in the process) to convince everyone that it is in their best interest to bow to him.

[danielxcutter]

There is also the factor that the Snarl, well, kills gods. I don't see adventurers beating that for a couple aeons - and considering that Xykon's explicitly said he might destroy the world himself if he gets bored enough, there probably isn't aeons.

[ziproot]

As for Girard's gate, the only reason Roy blew up the gate is because Vaarsuvius compromised the defenses with their Familicide spell. Vaarsuvius acted alone without any input from anyone else in the Order. The options were to destroy Girard's gate or let Xykon win. If Xykon won, then, fromm the Order's perspective at the time, Xykon would release the snarl and start killing people with it.

If only one gate is destroyed, it could, in time, be rebuilt. But if that same gate were to be opened and the Snarl controlled, it would mean a new age of darkness for the universe.

Now we know that it would actually cause the Gods to say "screw this, we're done here" and blow up the world.

[Doug Lampert]

"Like a hole in the prison holding a being capable of destroying the universe" sounds more ethical to you than "let some ass be a king for a bit"?

Snarl doesn't necessarily need all the rifts open and gates blown to be a threat. As we saw in the desert and in the Elven forests, the Snarl can be a threat with any rifts open or gates blown. Just because the Snarl didn't happen to break out yet doesnt mean they weren't absolutely choosing between "an evil lich conquering the world or the world being unmade". Heck, the gods even helps a vote on whether or not to even wait for the last Gate, and "don't pull the plug" just barely squeaked through!

Focusing on "yeah but this is the last one so it's the only one that counts as far as furthering the destruction of the world" is shown in-comic to be objectively wrong.

The Gate destroyers have been lucky, not right.

Agreed:

There was no reason to assume that the gods would wait for all five gates to fail. If there is some magic to the number five, and open rifts, then we KNOW that the snarl can and does create rifts, maybe it made a new one last week. Killing any gate risks the universe. The destruction of gate number 3 endangered the universe. I don't see how people are claiming that it's OBVIOUS that the destruction of gate number five is much worse and that the people who WILLINGLY destroyed gate 3 would NEVER do so to gate five.

But in fact, we know that five rifts doesn't necessarily result in immediate destruction, because there were five rifts before the gates were built.

Without story logic, based on in world logic, maybe 1 gate would get the gods to say "These gate things won't work, best to pull the plug now."
Without story logic, based on in world logic, maybe 2 gates would get the gods to say "The first one wasn't just a fluke, best to pull the plug now."
Without story logic, based on in world logic, maybe 3 gates would get the gods to say "That's a majority down, best to pull the plug now."
Without story logic, based on in world logic, maybe 4 gates would get the gods to say "That's all but one, best to pull the plug now."
Without story logic, based on in world logic, maybe 5 gates would get the gods to say "They're all gone, best to pull the plug now."

Or maybe since they didn't kill the world LAST time there were five open rifts, they won't now.

There is NO GOOD REASON to assume that the Paladins will not destroy gate number 5 because "it's the last one" when they were willing to destroy number 3 when that meant "most of the gates have failed and the gates obviously aren't working".

Both represent a RISK that the gods may destroy the world, and neither represents a CERTAINTY that the gods will immediately destroy the world.

[Wraithfighter]

But in fact, we know that five rifts doesn't necessarily result in immediate destruction, because there were five rifts before the gates were built.

We also have word of a god (sadly, not the same as Word of God) that if the last gate is destroyed, they'll have "ten to fifteen minutes before (The Snarl) gets out".

But just as one of the themes of the last book was, in effect, rules lawyering, one of the themes for this one seems to be people arrogantly acting on faulty information. Durkon thinking that Redcloak could be reasoned with, Team Evil continuing to fall for this extremely elaborate shell game, hell the gods don't even know about the world inside the rifts, and now Serini acting as though the biggest threat to be worried about is Xykon...

[Jasdoif]

"Like a hole in the prison holding a being capable of destroying the universe" sounds more ethical to you than "let some ass be a king for a bit"?

Suppose the ass aims to deliberately release the being capable of destroying the universe out of prison, with the expectation that he can use his control of it to destroy his enemies and thus maintain his kingship.

[russdm]

now Serini acting as though the biggest threat to be worried about is Xykon...

That's because it's what she only knows. Xykon ambushed her, a rogue, and left her for dead. So she looking at each of the gate events from the belief that she couldn't win then they wouldn't be able to.

She actually thinks that Xykon can control the gate and the Snarl by extension when she already knows that the gods can't.

She is reacting like that due to losing and believes that the others all lost their battles with Xykon so the gates were destroyed. But she doesn't care to know if it is different than what she thinks.

So she is starting out from faulty thinking "i couldn't stop Xykon, how could they?", "the gate was destroyed, so I was right "

[Ganbatte]

If she knows how Soon's gate was destroyed she must also know Xykon had been beaten in that fight.
He's not invincible. He can be taken down with proper setting it up and people banding together, like the paladins did.
Yet she's choosing to actively aid him instead and thwart the people who banded together to stop him.

Sounds to me like Serini's simply given up, and is now just trying to justify taking the path of least resistance even if it means submitting the gate in her care (and the world) to the evil tyrant who crippled her.

Besides it only takes a few moments to realize that "Xykon the immortal self-regenerating lich sorcerer is just gonna rule the world for a while before being toppled" is a theory full of holes.
NOW is when he should be defeated, not after he seizes the world-threatening weapon and consolidates his kingdom.

It baffles me to read people in this thread calling her logic sound, it's beyond stupid and hinges on the notion that someone else will magically appear and clean up the mess she's creating by disabling the heroes.

[ziproot]

Spoiler: Collapsed for space

Show

Agreed:

There was no reason to assume that the gods would wait for all five gates to fail. If there is some magic to the number five, and open rifts, then we KNOW that the snarl can and does create rifts, maybe it made a new one last week. Killing any gate risks the universe. The destruction of gate number 3 endangered the universe. I don't see how people are claiming that it's OBVIOUS that the destruction of gate number five is much worse and that the people who WILLINGLY destroyed gate 3 would NEVER do so to gate five.

But in fact, we know that five rifts doesn't necessarily result in immediate destruction, because there were five rifts before the gates were built.

Without story logic, based on in world logic, maybe 1 gate would get the gods to say "These gate things won't work, best to pull the plug now."
Without story logic, based on in world logic, maybe 2 gates would get the gods to say "The first one wasn't just a fluke, best to pull the plug now."
Without story logic, based on in world logic, maybe 3 gates would get the gods to say "That's a majority down, best to pull the plug now."
Without story logic, based on in world logic, maybe 4 gates would get the gods to say "That's all but one, best to pull the plug now."
Without story logic, based on in world logic, maybe 5 gates would get the gods to say "They're all gone, best to pull the plug now."

Or maybe since they didn't kill the world LAST time there were five open rifts, they won't now.

There is NO GOOD REASON to assume that the Paladins will not destroy gate number 5 because "it's the last one" when they were willing to destroy number 3 when that meant "most of the gates have failed and the gates obviously aren't working".

Both represent a RISK that the gods may destroy the world, and neither represents a CERTAINTY that the gods will immediately destroy the world.

The person who willingly destroyed gate #3, Miko Miyazaki, cannot destroy gate #5 on account of being dead. In fact, none of the gates were destroyed by a paladin. Saying that someone used O-Chul's sword to destroy the gate and blaming that on O-Chul is silly because O-Chul was paralyzed at the time. As for the "any circumstances", any is a pretty strong word (and so is never).

Let's give an example: This happens to be gate #3. Xykon's plan is to release the snarl and destroy the world (I know that it isn't the case but the paladins don't). To do this, he needs access to a gate. The gods are scared of this and are willing to destroy the world as soon as Xykon begins casting the ritual. Meanwhile, if that gate is destroyed, the gods wait because there are two other gates left. That is a circumstance, but Serini is acting like even then the paladins should still decide to let Xykon get the gate, leading to the Gods pulling the trigger.

So here is what O-Chul would say: "May the twelve gods vote to destroy the world if all five gates are destroyed, under any circumstances." Since the Twelve Gods at the moment have voted "no" to destroying the world, changing their votes to "yes" would turn the tide.

EDIT: Wait a moment, if the twelve gods voted "no", that means they are perfectly fine with the paladins attempting to destroy gate #3.