OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

[dancrilis]

That's one thing that's always put sand in my knickers about heroes invoking the trope "We have to beat the bad guy to the MacGuffin just in the nick of time!".

In fairness to the Order (and therefore to The Giant), they are not planning to do that.
Roy's plan is to stop Xykon before either group find the Gate (and he intends to delibrately not look for it), per 1224 (panels 1, 2, 3).

[KorvinStarmast]

Serini's far, far too strong for the Order to even have a chance; she could probably kill half the Order in the surprise round!

Will he remember that he has the spell?

The key point that you raise about Serini is that she has the advantage of surprise: the Order has a bunch of experience with Xykon and have some intel on him from O-Chul. Serini is not just an unknown, she has intel on them and they have no intel on her. They aren't even sure that she is still alive.

Sun Tzu's aphorism about knowing your enemy, and yourself, if you want to have a victory seems to apply here. Serini has both, and the Order has only the knowledge of self.

She's got the edge.

[danielxcutter]

In fairness to the Order (and therefore to The Giant), they are not planning to do that.
Roy's plan is to stop Xykon before either group find the Gate (and he intends to delibrately not look for it), per 1224 (panels 1, 2, 3).

The question is whether Serini knows. Or for that matter, cares.

[Metastachydium]

Good for Serini - I believe that I once mentioned that the world might be better off just giving Xykon a gate, nice to see the viewpoint presented in comic.

And she's wrong in considering that a viable option. Giving the Gate to Redcloak is one thing (and I still believe it could work), but if Serini knows what Xykon thinks he needs a Gate for, she is delusional. Xykon thinks that the Ritual will allow him to release the Snarl under controlled circumstances, which even if it worked like that would cause immense collateral damage (because unlike the gods, most inhabitants of the Sticverse do not know about the Snarl, so Xykon would have to demonstrate what it can do at least once for his scheme to work), including the erasure of a vast number of living creatures from existence forever. Also, if he could indeed gain control of the snarl, there would be no toppling him. I mean, a bunch of misfits stopping a lich is one thing; a bunch of misfits fighting an abomination that kills gods and eats worlds is another.

[KorvinStarmast]

Beyond all that, in Panel 8 Serini is wrong to blame the Paladins and the Order for four blown chances.

They had three blown chances:

Elan and Dorukan's gage
Azure City's gate
Roy and Girard's gate.

The Paladins + The Order combined had three chances. (In baseball terms, three blown saves).

The first chance to protect gates had nothing to do with the order, and nothing to do with the Paladins but it had to do with Serini's old comrade Lirian and a certain pyromaniac goblin.

Spoiler: SoD material

Show

(SoD and Lirian and Dorukan and how the ents holding the gate together caught fire ... )

[Linneris]

Bravo, Giant. A character who is not evil but has every reason (from her perspective, given what she knows) to oppose the protagonists. We need more of that in stories.

[danielxcutter]

Will he remember that he has the spell?

The key point that you raise about Serini is that she has the advantage of surprise: the Order has a bunch of experience with Xykon and have some intel on him from O-Chul. Serini is not just an unknown, she has intel on them and they have no intel on her. They aren't even sure that she is still alive.

Sun Tzu's aphorism about knowing your enemy, and yourself, if you want to have a victory seems to apply here. Serini has both, and the Order has only the knowledge of self.

She's got the edge.

Well yes, sure. But I'm still not sure if they can beat him. He's completely immune to like half the party and the other half doesn't do that well against him.

And that's just Xykon; add in Redcloak and I'm not sure if their knowledge would even matter at that point.

[arimareiji]

Option 4 - defending it.

Indeed, or destroying Xykon (which I believe is their plan A) as "the best defense". Doing that doesn't require finding the gate under these circumstances, unless they know Xykon has already found it. Which puts them one up on their old selves, or the party looking for the Lost Treasure of Sdigiji. I get the feeling that the Giant would much rather show the trope played out intelligently this time.

But at the moment, all Serini has witnessed the paladins doing is talking with unseen allies -- and discussing how they'll find the gate. From her point of view, Stupid Isn't Always Cute. Especially when it can lead to the world ending, not with a bang but an "Oopsie!".

[Thecommander236]

Oh that's good. Roy can tell her about the world inside the rift and that he wasn't even looking for the gate in the first place. And about the plan the Dark One has set up and all the other factions involved including the Fiends which she can't mind wipe.

But this also forces his hand so he doesn't kill Xykon early.

Paranoid idiot is about to fix everything again. 50 bucks says they end on the other world.

[Ghosty]

She's seen a pattern of behaviour from them (never mind that technically it was only the one gate the Paladins consciously chose to destroy), and from her perspective she sees no reason for that behaviour to change just because they say they really mean it this time.

That reasoning doesn't make sense from a rational character. (Of course, she may not be totally rational now.) The circumstances have completely changed. From having another chance not to blow it, to 'this is it.' Actions that makes sense under one set of circumstances---we have a spare Gate---wouldn't make sense to do at all given an opposite set of circumstances---we don't have a spare Gate. I wouldn't expect people to act the same way under both sets of conditions, so I don't understand why Serini expects they would.

Now, there are two sets of questions where the answers might lead Serini to think that the Paladins & the Order would blow her Gate up, despite this being the last one. First, the question, "Is oblivion better than Life Under Xykon," despite one being permanent and one we're pretty sure wouldn't be? It's conceivable the answer is, "Yes". She even alludes to kobolds, orcs, trolls maybe having feelings that way.

Second question, "Would the Order/Paladins, threaten to destroy the Gate, if they felt that was their only way to get Team Evil to back off?" (This obviously works for The Gods too.) And you thought MAD was a concept in character creation...

In that case, even if the Order is bluffing, they're still in a position to do it, might accidentally do it, or the Gate might be destroyed from collateral damage of an Order/Team Evil fight. Odds are, the Order has to be near the Gate to kill it. Roy had to whack Girard's Gate a few times, Miko had to physically strike Soon's Gate, etc... If the fighting groups are near the Gate, the Gate's in danger.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well yes, sure. But I'm still not sure if they can beat him. He's completely immune to like half the party and the other half doesn't do that well against him.

And that's just Xykon; add in Redcloak and I'm not sure if their knowledge would even matter at that point.

Which is why Roy knows that he has to have the advantage of surprise if he's going to have a shot at taking Xykon down. It's a force multiplier.

From her point of view, Stupid Isn't Always Cute.

I thought that would be a link to an Elan moment.

[Kelenius]

Well, I hope people stop saying that Serini is going to be the mysterious ally now.

[Rinazina]

Whoa! this is a great setup for the Neutralize Potion from Elan's development :)

PRESERVE THE (HI)STORY

[Lady Corvus]

And she's wrong in considering that a viable option. Giving the Gate to Redcloak is one thing (and I still believe it could work), but if Serini knows what Xykon thinks he needs a Gate for, she is delusional. Xykon thinks that the Ritual will allow him to release the Snarl under controlled circumstances, which even if it worked like that would cause immense collateral damage (because unlike the gods, most inhabitants of the Sticverse do not know about the Snarl, so Xykon would have to demonstrate what it can do at least once for his scheme to work), including the erasure of a vast number of living creatures from existence forever. Also, if he could indeed gain control of the snarl, there would be no toppling him. I mean, a bunch of misfits stopping a lich is one thing; a bunch of misfits fighting an abomination that kills gods and eats worlds is another.

Because Xykon has never shown a willingness to kill large numbers of living things for his own amusement...

Or Xykon just gets bored one day and unleashes the Snarl upon a god. Or does something similar to the Plan and blackmails the gods into making him a god.

Old lady halfling either has no real clue who Xykon is or is just dumb. Those Trolls she loves so much might just be erased from existence because Xykie doesn't like their smell.

[Kerching]

Theory: Serini will subdue the Order, but the IFCC will pull Vaarsuvius away before Serini can capture them. Hilarity ensues as the Order tries to explain to Serini exactly why V disappeared.

[Rinazina]

Well, I hope people stop saying that Serini is going to be the mysterious ally now.

she'll lose and learn from Durkon?

[elros]

I think Serini actually makes a lot of sense.
First, the Sapphire Guard and OOTS willingly destroyed the last two gates, so Serini has every right to be skeptical that they will do something different next time.
Second, Serini trusts her defenses for the final gate. She has seen Team Evil completely fail over the last few weeks, and they did not even get past the first line of defense. She may be able to fend them off indefinitely.
Third, Serini might be the one creature that could convince Redcloak to work with the gods. She understands the plight of monsters in this world, and has the charisma to make a convincing argument to him. Plus, she is stealthy enough to be able to get him without Xykon finding out.
I don't think Serini is an antagonist, but merely another player in a complex game where no one actually knows what is going on.

[danielxcutter]

Which is why Roy knows that he has to have the advantage of surprise if he's going to have a shot at taking Xykon down. It's a force multiplier.

I am aware, yes, and I doubt it'll work even then. Can't really ambush if half your party's useless against him and the other half doesn't do terribly well either.

Whoa! this is a great setup for the Neutralize Potion from Elan's development :)

PRESERVE THE (HI)STORY

Assuming Serini doesn't KO him as well. With her Sneak Attack damage, plus her poisons, she could easily take out half the Order with a bolt each and that's not even counting magic items.

But otherwise yes, I do hope that happens.

[elros]

Theory: Serini will subdue the Order, but the IFCC will pull Vaarsuvius away before Serini can capture them. Hilarity ensues as the Order tries to explain to Serini exactly why V disappeared.

Didn't V's body remain where it was, and only his soul was transported to the lower planes?

[Blue Dragon]

Epic Rogue is epic. Looking forward the next comic, as usual.

[factotum]

Oh, the high-jinks that ensue when people act on incomplete information...

[danielxcutter]

Didn't V's body remain where it was, and only his soul was transported to the lower planes?

It'll prevent Serini from turning V's lungs into popped balloons, at least. Which, considering her Sneak Attack damage, is entirely possible with just one attack.

[arimareiji]

In fairness to the Order (and therefore to The Giant), they are not planning to do that.
Roy's plan is to stop Xykon before either group find the Gate (and he intends to delibrately not look for it), per 1224 (panels 1, 2, 3).

Absolutely true, and thank you for this callout. I strongly suspected it but wasn't sure.

I definitely could have worded the last post better -- I was trying to draw a distinction between "heroes" usually bollocksing up this trope (yay Hollywood), and the Order (at least this time around*).

The problem is that Serini has good reason to think the Order will repeat history. She overheard the return-call of their Sending to the paladins, and immediately after they started talking about poking around to find the gate.

* - again, viz. Dorukan's gate (which Elan destroyed for lulz to boot, but that's another gripe)

[KorvinStarmast]

Theory: Serini will subdue the Order, but the IFCC will pull Vaarsuvius away before Serini can capture them. Hilarity ensues as the Order tries to explain to Serini exactly why V disappeared.

Here's hoping, but I don't think Rich is going to use IFCC pulling V down as comic relief.

Third, Serini might be the one creature that could convince Redcloak to work with the gods. She understands the plight of monsters in this world, and has the charisma to make a convincing argument to him. Plus, she is stealthy enough to be able to get him without Xykon finding out.

Nice call.

I don't think Serini is an antagonist, but merely another player in a complex game where no one actually knows what is going on.

Given that the IFCC hasn't turned over any of their cards yet, yep.

[Ghosty]

O-Chul did make the choice to destroy the Gate. He even openly admitted that to Hinjo. As you note, he didn't do it solely because Xykon paralyzed him, but he absolutely 100% would have. That holds whether she saw the throne room or not, do it doesn't give us any clarity Into what exactly she knows.

"Of course you had another choice!" strikes me as something that someone would say, if they really thought it was O-Chul who had swung the blade, and was really PO'd about it. Not someone who knew another person had stepped in and actually done it. Yeah, there's that, "at the time I made that decision," line from O-Chul. Still not buying it. I think she really thinks he did it.

There's real anger and exasperation in that line, and that statement, delivered like she did, fits with what Serini knows and has experienced, working with her party's Paladin for such a long time. It's a nifty piece of writing.

[RMS Oceanic]

Didn't V's body remain where it was, and only his soul was transported to the lower planes?

Maybe, if they still want the gate discovered and destroyed, they'll time taking V's soul at just the right moment so to Serini it looks like she's tranq'd them. And then as soon as she gets the rest of the order V returns, and politely asks what the heck she's doing.

[Rinazina]

It'll prevent Serini from turning V's lungs into popped balloons, at least. Which, considering her Sneak Attack damage, is entirely possible with just one attack.

good point! and I bet this is the time they might expend the 3 minutes timeout, not the twenty-something

edit: also they see invisible at the TV, so the timeout can be conveniently timed ;)

[Shining Wrath]

Serini evidently doesn't know about TDO's / Redcloak's plan to use the Gate as a weapon. She thinks she knows all the details, but she's missing that key piece. The Gods will remake the world rather than let the Gate be moved the their planes.

It will be up to Durkon to persuade her - and he's going to make his saving throw against poison, because Dwarf Cleric. This will be interesting.

[danielxcutter]

"Of course you had another choice!" strikes me as something that someone would say, if they really thought it was O-Chul who had swung the blade, and was really PO'd about it. Not someone who knew another person had stepped in and actually done it. Yeah, there's that, "at the time I made that decision," line from O-Chul. Still not buying it. I think she really thinks he did it.

There's real anger and exasperation in that line, and that statement, delivered like she did, fits with what Serini knows and has experienced, working with her party's Paladin for such a long time. It's a nifty piece of writing.

O-Chul would have done it himself, so I don't think it actually matters much at this point. It's true that the Order + the Guard blew some of their chances, but not all of that was really their fault(Soon's and Lirian's were arguably outside parties), but there isn't that big of a difference... especially not to Serini.

[Ghosty]

Theory: Serini will subdue the Order, but the IFCC will pull Vaarsuvius away before Serini can capture them. Hilarity ensues as the Order tries to explain to Serini exactly why V disappeared.

That would be funny.

"What happened? Oh, some Emissaries from the Lower Planes took our wizard away for awhile."
"No big deal, s/he rented hir soul to them for a few hours."
"So s/he could murder a quarter of all Black Dragon-kind. WAIT! WAIT! STOP!!!!"