OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

[The MunchKING]

Theory: Serini will subdue the Order, but the IFCC will pull Vaarsuvius away before Serini can capture them. Hilarity ensues as the Order tries to explain to Serini exactly why V disappeared.

WHY Do people keep saying the IFCC will save V everytime V comes into danger? They never HAVE saved V, they said they can't/won't save V, they don't even particularly want V to win.

It'll prevent Serini from turning V's lungs into popped balloons, at least. Which, considering her Sneak Attack damage, is entirely possible with just one attack.

She's got to be within 30 feet for that, and if she does that she's in range of everyone else's everything else.

[Shining Wrath]

Well, it's going to be an intersting ambush, isn't it.



I wonder what her goggles are for...

My guess is See Invisible. She knows she's going up against high level casters.

Personally I think that Xykon is too strong for the Order and there's no chance without ridiculous amounts of author fiat(granted, this is a comic and not an actual game), or my personal headcanon of "Roy bullrushes him through the Gate and the Snarl eats him".

Also I know that Serini probably won't try to kill them, but my point is that an epic level Rogue could probably KO Vaarsuvius with just one crossbow bolt if she got a Sneak Attack in, and quite possibly Elan and Haley as well. And that's before magic items and poison.

Based on a whole lot of foreshadowing, the MitD switches sides and equalizes things. We know that Xykon believes MitD can defeat Redcloak casually. That's pretty damn strong.

[arimareiji]

Well, I hope people stop saying that Serini is going to be the mysterious ally now.

Not a certainty, but for some reason "I get ta tell him!" comes to mind. (^_^)°

What seems more likely for the Giant to do: Give the comic a tragic end, wherein after she gets the drop on them
1) she succeeds and the world's last hope for ending the cycle dies, or
2) she almost succeeds and the rightly-panicked Order kills one of the Scribblers (who had every reason to believe she was saving the world without hurting the well-intentioned bunglers who had already destroyed two gates)
-- all due to a gross misunderstanding, based on a combination of their own actions and O-Chul's unfortunate word choice)?

Or come up with a way that they get to explain things, and they work together?

I thought that would be a link to an Elan moment.

Technically, it included an oblique reference to his most spectacular Elan moment. (^_~)

[Ghosty]

O-Chul would have done it himself, so I don't think it actually matters much at this point. It's true that the Order + the Guard blew some of their chances, but not all of that was really their fault(Soon's and Lirian's were arguably outside parties), but there isn't that big of a difference... especially not to Serini.

Well yeah, but I'm not mentioning it to show who actually broke the Gate, or who wanted to, but to point out that bit of dialogue might show what exactly Serini knows about that incident. And thereby give us some clues about what else she could know and doesn't know.

Peeping in on the shielded throne room is quite a feat, and leads to questions like, did she have similar setups for the other Gates? Scrying on O-Chul months later, Cloister math aside, is a bit easier, and suggests she might not be omniscient when it comes to the Gates being destroyed.

[danielxcutter]

My guess is See Invisible. She knows she's going up against high level casters.

Or True Seeing. There's a couple of equivalent items for that, and at her level that's not even really expensive.

Based on a whole lot of foreshadowing, the MitD switches sides and equalizes things. We know that Xykon believes MitD can defeat Redcloak casually. That's pretty damn strong.

Possibly, yes. But the Order alone has very little chance indeed.

[Ghosty]

My guess is See Invisible. She knows she's going up against high level casters.



Based on a whole lot of foreshadowing, the MitD switches sides and equalizes things. We know that Xykon believes MitD can defeat Redcloak casually. That's pretty damn strong.

True Seeing---reading that she's going to take down the Order, I was already wistful for Tarquin's Ring with it. Knocks down any illusion funny business from the start.

I'll be disappointed if the MITD doesn't flip sides by the end of the tale.

[SlashDash]

Interesting that so far, it seems Serini is shown by herself. If she was the green bubble at the end of the last book, where is the orange bubble?
Can't help but think that Orange will be used for some twist when they show what exactly they are

[Robots]

Update!

...Uh oh. This does not look good for our heroes.

So this is what Serini's planning. Interesting.

Can't wait for the next comic.

[KorvinStarmast]

2) she almost succeeds and the rightly-panicked Order kills one of the Scribblers

Belkar kills her is my guess. He doesn't need to remember anything to simply be a murdering psycho, and he has already pointed out that martials know how to handle rogues (glorified pick pockets) in melee combat. We may see another example of Belkar using his Barbarian rage feature during such a combat.

[link3710]

Well yes, sure. But I'm still not sure if they can beat him. He's completely immune to like half the party and the other half doesn't do that well against him.

And that's just Xykon; add in Redcloak and I'm not sure if their knowledge would even matter at that point.

I think you're underestimating the party. Roy has been running his build specifically to take down Xykon his whole life, and can do serious damage to undead now. V and Durkon are both powerful mages, even if neither is enough to take him down one on one. Elan will be full support in the fight, healing and buffing everyone. Hayley's picked up a bunch of potions and other items in preparation. I'd expect she has some sort of plan on how to deal damage to him.

The only odd man out is Belkar... But quite frankly, I expect that he's going to change the most by the time that conflict occurs. Maybe he's going to be riding in on a full sized t-rex, who knows?

[Windscion]

Seeing Serini's attitude toward "monster" races makes it more likely that the other invisible voice was, in fact, some type of "monster."

If she does talk to Roy and Durkon, I think she'll see that they can cooperate. Roy (per Origin of PCs) isn't bigoted against ostracised races, and Durkon definitely doesn't want his kin to be subject to Hel. Of course, Serini might not believe that Xykon's victory would push the gods to destroy the world, nor condemn all those dwarven souls to Hel's domain. Especially since confirmation is only really available from the northern gods and/or the godsmoot. OTOH she knew Kraagor, and might be savvy about these issues.

[Ganbatte]

*groan*

So after Girard, even Serini turns out an asshat who's gonna go against the Order aiding Xykon. Ugh.

[hroþila]

I have no idea where all this talk about Serini not being rational comes from. Her actions make perfect sense with the info she has, even frankly even with the fino we have. Sure, she could team up with the Order and try to destroy Xykon before he even finds the Gate, but I imagine she has already assessed their abilities (she's presumably been getting V's Sendings, she knows about the Order and could have been scrying on them for a while). If she has concluded that they are no match for Xykon even with her help (which, let's be honest, is a perfectly rational conclusion on paper), then it makes sense to get them out of the way just in case they screw things up and put existence itself at risk.

[Dragonus45]

Ahhhhhhhhhh, Serini is just kinda the worst I get it now. Can't wait to watch her go take a swing at the order, waste all the buffs and prep they have done for Xykon, and then ruin everything.

[danielxcutter]

I think you're underestimating the party. Roy has been running his build specifically to take down Xykon his whole life, and can do serious damage to undead now. V and Durkon are both powerful mages, even if neither is enough to take him down one on one. Elan will be full support in the fight, healing and buffing everyone. Hayley's picked up a bunch of potions and other items in preparation. I'd expect she has some sort of plan on how to deal damage to him.

The only odd man out is Belkar... But quite frankly, I expect that he's going to change the most by the time that conflict occurs. Maybe he's going to be riding in on a full sized t-rex, who knows?

Why yes, let's see what they can do, shall we?

• Roy is not exactly helpless, but even Durkula managed to make his Concentration check against the Spellsplinter Maneuver - and remember, undead use their Charisma score for Concentration. And guess what stat Xykon's likely pumped into the lower stratospheres? Remember that while Roy can probably do some damage, he can't actually bypass that DR 15/bludgeoning and magic.
• Durkon might do a bit better... if he can hit Xykon. Except he's got about half the character levels Xykon has and Xykon has both an item that provides a deflection bonus to AC and can cast Epic Mage Armor. Combine that with the natural armor bonus liches get and well... And his casting's also limited; dying twice means he's lost his 8ths.
• Vaarsuvius' spells actually can't do much against Xykon. The Hand series won't work due to the Boots of Freedom of Movement. He's immune to fire, cold, and electricity, so most blasting's out of the question too. Sunburst might work if V's learned it, but how many of those would V be able to prepare?
• Elan can buff. And that's it. And judging by how he used Heroism on Haley, I'm not sure if he plans to use bardic music.
• Belkar has trouble scratching Xykon, due to the aforementioned DR, and his animal companions likely do even less.
• Haley: HAHAHAHAHA yeah no. Serini doesn't think she stands a chance, why would Haley? There are precious few spells that let a rogue do anything to undead, and none of them really work on wands or potions.

I mean I guess Roy and Durkon could try tackling Xykon while the others pin down Redcloak, but Redcloak's not much easier to hold down due to being a cleric with 9ths and they need him alive to break the cycle.

[CyanWhisp]

That's one thing that's always put sand in my knickers about heroes invoking the trope "We have to beat the bad guy to the MacGuffin just in the nick of time!".

Except in this case, the Order's goal is to destroy Xykon before he finds the gate, not to get to the gate first. The had the perfect opportunity to find the gate when the stumbled across the secret tunnel, yet they decided to use it to set up an ambush instead.

[Kurald Galain]

Serini's far, far too strong for the Order to even have a chance; she could probably kill half the Order in the surprise round!

Why would that be true?

I know that "going epic" sounds pretty, well, epic; but the reality is that there is no huge power boost between level 20 (not epic) and level 21 (epic); except the Epic Spellcasting feat.

Serini is level 21-ish; the Order is around level 15. Yes, that's a tough battle, but on the other hand it is seven against one. The order certainly has a decent chance in fighting her.

[Wraithfighter]

And Serini votes for Safety over Freedom.

Rather unexpected on a Chaotic character, but people tend to go that way as they grew older.

This.

I get what Serini's saying, but she's making a very, very critical assumption here: That Xykon with control over the gates, no matter how nasty a leader they'll end up being, is preferable to the risk of the world being destroyed.

Leaving aside the huuuuuuuuugely problematic aspects of "oh, it'll be fine, eventually someone will topple the big bad!", in this case we know that she's 100% wrong.

Because its not Xykon that would have control over the Gate. It'd be Redcloak (...with an assumption that Redcloak's deception of Xykon is still intact). And Redcloak's plan is basically asking, nay, begging for the gods to unmake the world out of simple self-defense.

To paraphrase the apocryphal Winston Churchill, Serini has been presented with a choice between helping Xykon conquer the world or risking its destruction. She has chosen to help Xykon, and thus is working to ensure its destruction.

And sure, there's a question about how much she should be expected to know about all of this. But when your best plan is currently "actively help the megalomaniacal maniac conquer the world and subjugate as many people as possible", I kinda expect you to be a bit more welcoming of new facts to prove you wrong, otherwise you're being a crazed out dingbat.

[danielxcutter]

Why would that be true?

I know that "going epic" sounds pretty, well, epic; but the reality is that there is no huge power boost between level 20 (not epic) and level 21 (epic); except the Epic Spellcasting feat.

Serini is level 21-ish; the Order is around level 15. Yes, that's a tough battle, but on the other hand it is seven against one. The order certainly has a decent chance in fighting her.

Not when half the party's KOed or dead in the surprise round and lose initiative in the second. In a straight fight yes, but Serini isn't exactly interested in one is she?

[hamishspence]

I don't think she plans on helping Xykon, in the "hand the gate over to him" sense - just keep the Order from arriving at the gate and destroying it.

[B. Pseudonym]

Looking forward to this fight scene.

Hopefully, she'll change her tune in a hurry when Durkon or whoever explains about the ritual. Durkon knows about the ritual, right? It's been a while since I read his chat with Thor.

She also mentioned being sympathetic to kobolds and orcs and stuff, and she's visibly part troll... what do you suppose the odds are that she becomes important to negotiations with Redcloak?

[Wraithfighter]

I have a question though: If she thinks she can kidnap the whole Order and mindwipe them, why hasn't she done the same to say, Redcloak? Alone he can't be as dangerous as the Order and that'd actually ruin Xykon's plan.

Probably because she dismisses him as some flunky, not a real threat, hell doesn't his whole thing about Goblins being victimized by the PC races have a point to it, given how she views the trolls?

She almost certainly doesn't know what Redcloak's true goals are, that he's the one with the real power, and that his plan would likely spur the pantheons to unmake the world ASAP to stop him.

You have to keep in mind that if there's anyone better at getting people to underestimate them than Xykon, it's Redcloak. And, well, Serini got half her body burned off by Xykon in a single round and then left for dead. She might just have a bit of a complex about it.

[arimareiji]

Random thought: What would the rogue equivalent of "caster fight" be, a "sneak-out"?

Whoa! this is a great setup for the Neutralize Potion from Elan's development :)

PRESERVE THE (HI)STORY

Interesting point... what does happen when Neutralize Poison interacts with an unwanted potion that doesn't act as a poison in the strict sense (causes potentially-lethal biological pathology)?

Seeing Serini's attitude toward "monster" races makes it more likely that the other invisible voice was, in fact, some type of "monster."

If she does talk to Roy and Durkon, I think she'll see that they can cooperate. Roy (per Origin of PCs) isn't bigoted against ostracised races, and Durkon definitely doesn't want his kin to be subject to Hel. Of course, Serini might not believe that Xykon's victory would push the gods to destroy the world, nor condemn all those dwarven souls to Hel's domain. Especially since confirmation is only really available from the northern gods and/or the godsmoot. OTOH she knew Kraagor, and might be savvy about these issues.

You're right, she doesn't have much if any reason to take Durkon's word for it. But you have me thinking back to the hypothesis that she was mind-reading, and steering the conversation so that O-Chul's surface thoughts exposed the events in the throne room. If she has that ability (I still like "ESP potion"), she doesn't have to take his word for it.

I have no idea where all this talk about Serini not being rational comes from.

Confirmation bias, in this case the "b**** eating crackers like she owns the place" variety, is very human.

[danielxcutter]

Probably because she dismisses him as some flunky, not a real threat, hell doesn't his whole thing about Goblins being victimized by the PC races have a point to it, given how she views the trolls?

She almost certainly doesn't know what Redcloak's true goals are, that he's the one with the real power, and that his plan would likely spur the pantheons to unmake the world ASAP to stop him.

You have to keep in mind that if there's anyone better at getting people to underestimate them than Xykon, it's Redcloak. And, well, Serini got half her body burned off by Xykon in a single round and then left for dead. She might just have a bit of a complex about it.

Methinks "trauma" would be the right word, but yeah.

Also yes, I do wonder how her opinion would change if she actually listened to the Order - assuming they ever get a chance.

Which, considering they're going to get jumped on by an epic rogue, is doubtful.

[Kurald Galain]

Not when half the party's KOed or dead in the surprise round and lose initiative in the second. In a straight fight yes, but Serini isn't exactly interested in one is she?

Serini has absolutely no way to KO half the party in a surprise round.

She's also not likely to win initiative against everyone, especially against high-dex characters like Haley.

[Riftwolf]

Interesting... Serini believes *Xykon* is the main threat, not Redcloak, and doesn't say anything about the Dark One's plot or the Gods in general. Once again, characters acting on incomplete information: I love it.

[pendell]

Nope. Her logic is pretty sound based on the following assumption: existing, with a complete {censored} ruling the world (before someone topples him, which she knows is possible given the existence of adventurers) beats not existing. There are a variety of RL parallels that I'll not introduce due to forum rules but suffice to say that the choices, as she sees it, are not binary: there is a third, fourth, or even fifth option. (We could toss in the old 'where there's life there's hope' cliche, but I'm not sure that she thinks along those lines).

But are those third, fourth and fifth option available when Paladins are on the case? Presumably Serina knew Soon; she may be concerned that someone who followed those teachings would sooner destroy the world than allow it to be ruled by someone like Xykon. 'Dying with honor', and all that rubbish. A choice all very well for them, but not a choice they have any right to make for the rest of the world.

Serina can very clearly see the pattern: Four times Xykon has attacked a gate, four times a gate has been destroyed. They say that doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is the definition of insanity; why should she expect the heroes to behave differently this time? Expect enough to warrant gambling a world that fifth time's the charm?

Even if the heroes themselves have no intention of destroying the gate, the gate could still get destroyed accidentally as people fight over it.

Serini's response is remarkable, given Xykon tried to kill her from ambush when she had done him no harm, leaving her permanently disfigured. Most people would feel a bit of resentment towards their would-be murderer. But she's willing to pave his way to world domination if that's what keeps the world alive and intact long enough for him to be overthrown.

Even so, she's still wrong because she doesn't understand that Xykon is only a pawn, a dupe. More than likely allowing the ritual to be completed will result in the world's destruction in any event, whether because he unleashes the snarl on the gods, or the gods unmake the world to save it from the Snarl. So her logic is reasonable, given what she knows, but she's an antagonist and obstacle in the story because her information is not complete.

A very interesting five-sided (Serini, The OOTS, Xykon, Redcloak, the Fiends who have Vaarsuvius) conflict is shaping up!

As towards her sanity, I don't feel qualified to diagnose it in a stick figure, but from a layperson's perspective her actions appear rational, given the information she has.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dragonus45]

Not when half the party's KOed or dead in the surprise round and lose initiative in the second. In a straight fight yes, but Serini isn't exactly interested in one is she?

Honestly I'm not sure she could manage half the order, she is only getting so many swings and it's likely the people most dangerous to her, angry melee beat sticks, will still be up and ready to tango. At least by the pure math logic of 3.5 Narrative logic might dictate otherwise in several directions.

[KorvinStarmast]

So after Girard, even Serini turns out an asshat who's gonna go against the Order aiding Xykon. Ugh.

Perhaps the Scribbles ought to have been called "The Order of the Asshats" but maybe that doesn't fit well enough.

Can't wait to watch her go take a swing at the order, waste all the buffs and prep they have done for Xykon, and then ruin everything.

Yep. Chaotic characters have a tendency to do that. Beginning with Elan at Dorukan's gate ...

In a straight fight yes, but Serini isn't exactly interested in one is she?

No, she isn't. +1. Rogue.

She also mentioned being sympathetic to kobolds and orcs and stuff, and she's visibly part troll... what do you suppose the odds are that she becomes important to negotiations with Redcloak?

If she can survive and actually talk to the Order, that's a neat angle. It's also one I'd like to see developed more.

She almost certainly doesn't know what Redcloak's true goals are, that he's the one with the real power, and that his plan would likely spur the pantheons to unmake the world ASAP to stop him.

And he's wearing an artifact.

You have to keep in mind that if there's anyone better at getting people to underestimate them than Xykon, it's Redcloak.

If she wants revenge on Xykon, she's got the Order right there to handle him ... but for the moment she's not seeing that as her objective. She can live with that (censored) as long as she remains alive. That's her PoV, and it will take a substantial shock to the system to shake her out of it. And I think that Belkar will provide it.

[sillymel]

Logic seems perfectly sound to me. Not nice, or best case scenario, but sound.

To nitpick, while her reasoning might be valid, it most definitely is not “sound.” “Sound” would mean that she’s also reasoning from correct premises, and thus her conclusion would be correct as well (at least from I remember from the philosophy course in college), which it is not.

EDIT: Apply this to anyone else saying Serini’s logic is “sound” as well. It was not my intention to single out Peelee; that’s just the post I saw first.