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  1. - Top - End - #961
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    As far as I can tell, the gate defenses are doing fine as is. Not one on team evil has any inkling about the decoy dungeons they've been being teleported into. On top of that, I'd be shocked if you didn't still have to find the correct tunnel even after you've figured out the teleport trick. Plus whatever defenses are in the real tunnels.

    So I don't necessarily blame Serini for not wanting to join up with the group of adventurers who as far as she knows wants to go mucking around trying to find the gate and probably causing more problems than they solve. Any talk about preferring to let Xykon have the gate vs blowing up the gate to prevent him from getting it struck me as mostly hypothetical. "If it comes down to it" kind of talk.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    As mentioned previously:
    {Scrubbed}
    "They'll never get past the first layer" "They'll leave at random" "Red turns epic and repairs a Gate they took years to learn how to craft".

    At this point you might as well add "Xykon ascends to Godhood" and we're off the rails of seriousness completely.

    It had a number of high level characters interested in it at that point - many of whom would have interfered with Xykon as he tried to do whatever Roy thought he wanted to do with the Gate.
    For Roy's knowledge Serini's Gate had no protection at all (it does but then you don't seem to think much or that protection).
    That's not defense, it's volatile happenstance.
    And yes, for Roy's knowledge Serini's had some sort of guards and protections just like literally every other Gate so far, which is more than what Girard's was sporting at the moment.

    Heck even if Serini only had a locked wooden door behind a bush it would've been more than Girard's at that point.

    It seems like you are simply reaching to create a difference.
    Serini is not picking a fight with Xykon because she thinks she would lose - Roy took action that he hoped would avoid a fight with Xykon because he felt he would lose, and was content when Xykon left.
    One you deem brave and one you deem a coward.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    And plainly wrong.
    The Order didn't destroy the Gate to avoid a confrontation with Xykon they did so to rob him of his goal.
    Serini's avoiding that confrontation altogether, taking no steps to stop him from reaching his goal.
    From this point on I'm just gonna keep responding with nothing but this quote.
    {Scrubbed}
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Here's the problem: Xykon & Redcloak, the sand monster, these were all things that were forced on the Order. At no point did they choose to engage either time. -cut
    But they did.
    They chose engagement the moment they chose to destroy Girard's gate instead of staying hiding and keeping it low.

    Which is why they're not cowards.
    Which is why Serini is.
    Last edited by truemane; 2021-03-27 at 12:42 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #963
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You've got it backwards - they didn't get between a god-killing abomination and Xykon, they moved to put the god-killing abomination between them and Xykon.
    Yeah, I think I misread that part. They weren't that brave. Still better than what Serini is doing, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Here's the problem: Xykon & Redcloak, the sand monster, these were all things that were forced on the Order. At no point did they choose to engage either time. They were forced into engaging. That means nothing. Imean, sure, it's great that they survived and all, but when you turn a corner and a mugger you didn't know about runs into you and you both fall down, I'm sorry but you're not exactly getting a medal for your stunning bravery there.
    They chose to engage every time. Xykon and Redcloak showed up and they were already thinking about how to fight them. The sand monster showed up and they immediately engaged. The coward move would be to run away.
    EDIT: Ganbatte made this point as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Just because Serini isn't telling a couple of people who don't even have the bottle the juice goes in every detail of what she's doing doesn't mean she's doing jack squat. Some smart sexy poster somewhere upthread said something about how you shouldn't go believing that Serini has been completely upfront and forthright about the cards she's holding.
    And that is just stupid on her part. Lack of information is what led to most of the gates being destroyed, along with general incompetence. If she has a plan to stop Xykon, why not tell the Paladins? Paladins are very good at withholding information if necessary, and it would prevent them from interfering. If her plan was to actually try to stop Xykon, she would want all the help she could get. The reason she chose otherwise was because of cowardice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Oh, and dictionary definitions are a poor refuge. Yes, destroying a Gate is dangerous. That does not make it brave or courageous or not-cowardice. If it did, then destroying the current Gate would be the most courageous action anyone could do.
    I'm pretty sure your definition of cowardice is much stricter than the dictionary's and Ganbatte's, hence the disagreement and resulting argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Generally, the arguments against Serini so far seem to be based on making the most uncharitable interpretations of what she's doing and ascribing the most uncharitable motivations to her for doing it.
    I'm responding to Peelee, but since Peelee quoted this, I'll respond to this. Nobody is saying that Serini is actively trying to help Xykon, or that she wants Xykon to win. That is a far more uncharitable interpretation/motivation than just saying she is letting things take their course unless said thing happens to be a Paladin, a member of the Order, or (possibly) Minrah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So if someone believes a battle cannot be won, then it is not cowardice if they choose to try to not fight that battle? You make an excellent case for Serini not being a coward, then!
    They didn't choose to try to not fight the battle, they chose to destroy the gate. I know you think that destroying the gate is trying not to fight the battle, but I think otherwise.

    EDIT: I guess I'll respond to dancrilis as well, since they mentioned me.
    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    As mentioned previously:
    ...eventually Team Evil might figure out the trick, or they might assume false info was in the diary and that they Gate is elsewhere, or something in the dungeons might kill them, or they might fall to infighting, or Redcloak might hit Epic level and they might decide that it would be quicker to fix some other rift and so leave hers alone.
    Frankly Redcloak hits Epic level and they go away to repair a different Gate would likely suit Serini down to the ground.

    The simple fact is that we the audience don't know for certain that the gate isn't seven miles west, 1 knot north, buried 100 meters down - and that the entire canyon is merely a bluff.
    The longer the game works the more chance that Redcloak and Xykon might decide that it the case and just leave - especially if they don't figure out the portal trap and complete all the dungeons.
    I would respond to this but somebody else beat me to it:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    "They'll never get past the first layer" "They'll leave at random" "Red turns epic and repairs a Gate they took years to learn how to craft".

    At this point you might as well add "Xykon ascends to Godhood" and we're off the rails of seriousness completely.
    Anyways...
    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    As you mentioned he got close to it to avoid Redcloak - it is possible that his 'let's get away' was refering specifically to The Snarl but I always read it as more a 'before something else goes wrong' such as people showing up which was interrupted by something else going wrong by people
    showing up.
    First of all, where did I mention that? They got close to the rift from the blast. Something else going wrong includes the Snarl attacking. Anyways, I read it as "let's get out of here while we still [can]." i.e. before the Snarl eats them.
    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Who know she hasn't laid it out - but it could hold out (as indicated above).
    See my response above to Peelee making a similar statement.

    The rest of this is responding to other people so I'll let them explain themselves.
    Last edited by truemane; 2021-03-27 at 12:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Dictionary definitions never win debates, unless the topic up for debate is "what does the dictionary say about this"

  4. - Top - End - #964
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Considering that Serini is actively committed to a plan will result in her ceasing to exist, it's... odd to call her a coward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dausuul View Post
    Considering that Serini is actively committed to a plan will result in her ceasing to exist, it's... odd to call her a coward.
    Or it was just her defeatism talking there. We don't know what she meant by that.

    "Welp, guess Gate's gonna blow and we're all gonna die" "yup"

    I'd hardly put it behind her after that spiel about a lich ruling the world "just for a while". Her neutrality seems to manifest into just letting bad stuff happen.

  6. - Top - End - #966
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Manty5 View Post
    Yes, Thog versus Xykon, round 1!
    At the time Nale had Malack, Durkon and Zz'dtri - even ignoring Tarquin and company - that is argueable a stronger lineup then Roy has now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    "Red turns epic and repairs a Gate they took years to learn how to craft".
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    It was actually a plan raised by Redcloak as hopeless as they would both need to be Epic after the loss of the first gate - it is not hopeless now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    And plainly wrong.
    The Order didn't destroy the Gate to avoid a confrontation with Xykon they did so to rob him of his goal.
    From this point on I'm just gonna keep responding with nothing but this quote.
    They did it for both reasons - they could win not by opposing him but by destroying the gate (Roy's logic).
    Serini doesn't want them to apply that logic again so she opposes them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    The coward move would be to run away.
    You think that if Xykon teleported beside Serini and she had no means of escape she would run?

    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    They didn't choose to try to not fight the battle, they chose to destroy the gate. I know you think that destroying the gate is trying not to fight the battle, but I think otherwise.
    Do you think that they intended to camp out and ambush Xykon when he arrived or more on immediately?
    They had no idea how long Xykon would take.

    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    I would respond to this but somebody else beat me to it:
    No answer that details why they wouldn't think it was all a bluff or choose easier means of achieving the same goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    As you mentioned he got close to it to avoid Redcloak
    First of all, where did I mention that?
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    The quote in the linked comment:

    "Keep the rift between you and them as long as you can. We need them to close if we're going to have a chance."

    Not "let's get out of here".
    The only way to keep the rift between them is to be close to it otherwise lines of sight open up - this is further supported by Ropy moving towards the rift.
    Last edited by dancrilis; 2021-03-26 at 04:49 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #967
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    Yeah, I think I misread that part. They weren't that brave. Still better than what Serini is doing, though.
    Given that we have no idea what Serini is doing, I am not nearly as sure as you.
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    They chose to engage every time.
    They were engaged by the enemies every time. They did not choose to engage. The choice was taken from them.
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    Xykon and Redcloak showed up and they were already thinking about how to fight them.
    Source?
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    The sand monster showed up and they immediately engaged. The coward move would be to run away.
    Run where? They can't get away. There's no escape. They can either die here or die fifty feet over there. Not much of a choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    If she has a plan to stop Xykon, why not tell the Paladins?
    She's said why: she's going to wipe their memories so why bother? You have yet to put forth a compelling reason for her to tell them otherwise aside from "you want to know."
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    I'm pretty sure your definition of cowardice is much stricter than the dictionary's and Ganbatte's, hence the disagreement and resulting argument.
    Dictionary definitions never win debates, unless the topic up for debate is "what does the dictionary say about this". My definition for cowardice does not include "does not make a foolhardy rush towards Xykon with a team that she explicitly calls out as worthless against Xykon". As for how you and others define it, well, I'm no prescriptivist. I won't be sourcing from the ziproot dictionary when I need to know what a new word means, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    I'm responding to Peelee, but since Peelee quoted this, I'll respond to this. Nobody is saying that Serini is actively trying to help Xykon, or that she wants Xykon to win. That is a far more uncharitable interpretation/motivation than just saying she is letting things take their course unless said thing happens to be a Paladin, a member of the Order, or (possibly) Minrah.
    Might wanna double check your sources on that (bolding mine):
    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    If she knows how Soon's gate was destroyed she must also know Xykon had been beaten in that fight.
    He's not invincible. He can be taken down with proper setting it up and people banding together, like the paladins did.
    Yet she's choosing to actively aid him instead and thwart the people who banded together to stop him.
    However, it seems we definitely agree here: saying that Serini is actively aiding Xykon would certainly be uncharitable.
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    They didn't choose to try to not fight the battle, they chose to destroy the gate. I know you think that destroying the gate is trying not to fight the battle, but I think otherwise.
    So when Roy said they didn't need to defeat Xykon there, Roy meant "we are obviously still going to fight him here"?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-03-26 at 05:04 PM. Reason: Noted my emphasis in the quote
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  8. - Top - End - #968
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    You think that if Xykon teleported beside Serini and she had no means of escape she would run?
    If Xykon teleported a hundred feet away from Serini and there was a rift in the way (i.e. what happened), maybe. She can't beat them so why try? (that's her thinking at least)

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Do you think that they intended to camp out and ambush Xykon when he arrived or more on immediately?
    They had no idea how long Xykon would take.
    They actually had a very good idea of how long Xykon would take. They knew Xykon could come at any second.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Dictionary definitions never win debates, unless the topic up for debate is "what does the dictionary say about this"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    Or it was just her defeatism talking there. We don't know what she meant by that.

    "Welp, guess Gate's gonna blow and we're all gonna die" "yup"

    I'd hardly put it behind her after that spiel about a lich ruling the world "just for a while". Her neutrality seems to manifest into just letting bad stuff happen.
    I find it fascinating that you take at face value the monologue Serini delivered to the paladins, even though we have already seen her lie to them repeatedly; yet you wave off what she said to her companion with no one else listening.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    They actually had a very good idea of how long Xykon would take. They knew Xykon could come at any second.
    They only had the info that Niu provided and even that was second hand.

    Niu had no reason to know that Xykon was even in Gobbotopia, much less had left Gobbotopia, much less where he had left to go - for all Roy knew they would be coming with a hobgoblin army (like they did for the last gate.

    Seperately answered some more above (edits vs posting time and all that).

  11. - Top - End - #971
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Given that we have no idea what Serini is doing, I am not nearly as sure as you.
    Maybe she is teleporting to fight Xykon, in which case she isn't a coward after all. But I'm pretty sure she's teleporting to subdue the Order.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    They were engaged by the enemies every time. They did not choose to engage. The choice was taken from them.
    Every time? Because in the first book they chose to engage Xykon. In the second book they thought Xykon was dead. In the third book they thought Xykon was going to Girard's gate, then realized he was going to Azure City and helped defend it. Roy even jumped on Xykon's back and died as a consequence. The fourth book was a mess but half the group was stuck on a boat and the other half was at least trying to do something. Not necesarilly fighting Xykon but not sitting in their headquarters doing nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Source?
    First panel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Run where? They can't get away. There's no escape. They can either die here or die fifty feet over there. Not much of a choice.
    Anywhere? It's a desert, just pick a path and run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    She's said why: she's going to wipe their memories so why bother? You have yet to put forth a compelling reason for her to tell them otherwise aside from "you want to know."
    She doesn't have to wipe their memories. She's just choosing to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Dictionary definitions never win debates, unless the topic up for debate is "what does the dictionary say about this". My definition for cowardice does not include "does not make a foolhardy rush towards Xykon with a team that she explicitly calls out as worthless against Xykon". As for how you and others define it, well, I'm no prescriptivist. I won't be sourcing from the ziproot dictionary when I need to know what a new word means, though.
    1) Thor won a debate with Hel using a dictionary definition
    2) I doubt anybody's definition has specifics like that. Maybe as a non-example, but it won't help just saying "my definition is everything but what Serini didn't do."
    3) Fine with me. I'm bad at explaining what words mean anyways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Might wanna double check your sources on that:
    Just because I agree with the general premise of what somebody says doesn't mean I agree with everything they say. I don't think Serini is actively aiding Xykon (i.e. saying "hey it's this trap thing let me disarm that for you and don't worry about the monsters I told them to ignore you").
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    However, it seems we definitely agree here: there is certainly uncharitableness.
    Yes, it is uncharitable. Not the most uncharitable interpretation, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So when Roy said they didn't need to defeat Xykon there, Roy meant "we are obviously still going to fight him here"?
    Roy meant "we don't need to fight Xykon to stop him from getting this gate." Xykon is still a threat that needs to be dealt with, or else the Order wouldn't have gone to Kraagor's gate at all.

    EDIT: Responding to another quote by dancrilis
    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    They only had the info that Niu provided and even that was second hand.

    Niu had no reason to know that Xykon was even in Gobbotopia, much less had left Gobbotopia, much less where he had left to go - for all Roy knew they would be coming with a hobgoblin army (like they did for the last gate.)

    Seperately answered some more above (edits vs posting time and all that).
    Roy knew Xykon had his phylactery, meaning nothing was keeping them at Azure City. Here is also where the sources pretty definitively against you. Just look at this (first panel). I think I responded to the above quotes in my edit of my previous post.

    EDIT: Oh wait nevermind, it was in a separate post here.
    Last edited by ziproot; 2021-03-26 at 05:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Dictionary definitions never win debates, unless the topic up for debate is "what does the dictionary say about this"

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    They did it for both reasons - they could win not by opposing him but by destroying the gate (Roy's logic).
    Serini doesn't want them to apply that logic again so she opposes them.
    So you agree that Roy didn't blow the Gate out of cowardice to avoid having to face Xykon, but to deny him his victory McGuffin using the brief chance he had.
    McGuffin that Serini's been willing to sit by and watch him taking for weeks while not wanting to face Xykon.

    Good, we can finally put this whole thing to rest.
    Serini's cowardly for this, but Roy isn't for that specific course of action.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dausuul View Post
    I find it fascinating that you take at face value the monologue Serini delivered to the paladins, even though we have already seen her lie to them repeatedly; yet you wave off what she said to her companion with no one else listening.
    I've already given you a possible interpretation of what she said to her companion. That's not what "waving off" is.
    You're the one talking of a plan she never mentioned once, so what exactly am I waving off?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    Maybe she is teleporting to fight Xykon, in which case she isn't a coward after all. But I'm pretty sure she's teleporting to subdue the Order.
    So let me make sure I have this correct: you are saying that unless she engages Xykon head-on, despite what she thinks her chances are, she is a coward? Because if not, that is a remarkably odd choice of rebuttal.
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    Every time? Because in....
    This is why dictionary definitions don't win debates. Yes, by the strict definition of "every time", that is correct. However, from the context, it was clear I was talking about their actions in destroying Girard's Gate and the resulting combats.
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    I'm sorry, I thought you meant before they destroyed the Gate. Heck, I would even have settled for before Redcloak engaged them by attacking, given that your claim was "Xykon and Redcloak showed up and they were already thinking about how to fight them."

    More accurately, Redcloak and Xykon showed up and initiated combat and only then did the Order give any thought whatsoever of how to fight them". Thinking of how best to fight someone once you are already in a fight is hardly a mark of courage.
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    Anywhere? It's a desert, just pick a path and run.
    Again, they could die in that spot or they could die 50 feet over in a different spot. It makes no difference. Their only hope of survival was to fight, and when something is your only choice, it's not really a choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    She doesn't have to wipe their memories. She's just choosing to do so.
    ....and? That seems entirely irrelevant. Is that a reason for her to tell them all her plans and exactly what she's up to?
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    1) Thor won a debate with Hel using a dictionary definition
    And Roy got stabbed through the chest by a triceratops horn, and a multi-ton lizard that breathes fire with a remarkably short wingspan for something its size can fly without magic, and.....

    Suffice it to say, I am unmoved by what magical and fantasy-like feats a fictional deity can acheive.
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    Just because I agree with the general premise of what somebody says doesn't mean I agree with everything they say. I don't think Serini is actively aiding Xykon (i.e. saying "hey it's this trap thing let me disarm that for you and don't worry about the monsters I told them to ignore you").
    I never assumed you did, and never argued as if that were the case. However, if you say "nobody ever said X" and there is a point where someone literally said X, you should not be surprised when you get that as a rebuttal. You chose to lump yourself in with everyone on your side when you made that statement. Me, I either check to make sure nobody actually said X if I make such a claim, or (because that is pretty tedious) I simply restrict such claims to "I never said X". And seeing as that was a very notable point that I disagreed on, it was pretty memorable without even needing tedious checking.
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    Yes, it is uncharitable. Not the most uncharitable interpretation, though.
    Sure, why not. Still massively uncharitable, which does not change my point (or, I would wager, Ruck's, but they may correct me on that) in any meaningful way. Unless you had a larger point you wished to make with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    Roy meant "we don't need to fight Xykon to stop him from getting this gate." Xykon is still a threat that needs to be dealt with, or else the Order wouldn't have gone to Kraagor's gate at all.
    So when you said that you do not think that destroying the gate is trying not to fight the battle, you meant that you do think that destroying the Gate is not trying to fight the battle? Because it seems pretty clear to me that Roy was saying "we are doing this so we do not have to fight this battle".
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Well, new comic is up, so let's just agree to disagree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Dictionary definitions never win debates, unless the topic up for debate is "what does the dictionary say about this"

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    Well, new comic is up, so let's just agree to disagree.
    NEVER!
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    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    NEVER!
    Then we agree to disagree on agreeing to disagreement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Dictionary definitions never win debates, unless the topic up for debate is "what does the dictionary say about this"

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Generally, the arguments against Serini so far seem to be based on making the most uncharitable interpretations of what she's doing and ascribing the most uncharitable motivations to her for doing it.
    The internet does seem to be pretty rife with what I call it the "b**** eating crackers like she owns the place" perspective. *shrug*

    That, and a healthy dose of Simon & Garfunkel ("Still a man nears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest").

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    Then we agree to disagree on agreeing to disagreement.
    Agreed! I think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
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    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    So you agree that Roy didn't blow the Gate out of cowardice to avoid having to face Xykon
    I have never accused Roy of being a coward for that - merely that if I am reading you correctly the logic you apply to Serini would seem to brand him one.
    You have then tried a few versions of 'but no you see in that case' and I have found all of them unconvincing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    Roy knew Xykon had his phylactery, meaning nothing was keeping them at Azure City. Here is also where the sources pretty definitively against you. Just look at this (first panel).
    Roy knew they had been trying to contact them for 3 hours - and still no Xykon, yes every round that passed Xykon could teleport in but it could still have been hours or days away, Roy had no idea what business Xykon might have to take care of - he knew for a fact that Xykon didn't teleport in when he initially had the location of Soon's gate, or immediately after he lost Soon's gate but had Girard's gate's location.

    'Xykon has his phylactery' tells Roy nothing about Xykon's plans and timeframes.
    Last edited by dancrilis; 2021-03-26 at 05:43 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    You're the one talking of a plan she never mentioned once, so what exactly am I waving off?
    She said "We're finally doing this, huh?" We don't know what "this" is, but she is doing something, and it is something she has been contemplating for a while ("finally"), and she expects her own annihilation to follow.

    This is the single, solitary place where Serini is talking and not putting on a show for the paladins, meaning we can reasonably guess that she's telling the truth.

    In the brief time she's been talking to Lien and O-Chul, we have already seen her lie to them twice, saying the second time, "You never really forget how to lie to a paladin!" On top of that, she said "Not much point in me giving you the spiel on why I'm doing this," followed by giving them the exact spiel she just said there was no point in giving them. She's done everything but stand on a rooftop screaming "EVERYTHING I AM TELLING YOU IS A LIE!"

    But you continue to work off a portrayal of Serini which starts with taking the Paladin Spiel at face value; and then trying to come up with an explanation for the "finally doing this" conversation that slots into that portrayal. This is precisely backward. The place to start with Serini is that one cryptic conversation. There is useful information in the Paladin Spiel (e.g., she has very detailed knowledge of how Soon's Gate was destroyed, right down to the fact that it was done with O-Chul's katana), but as an explanation of what she is doing and why, it has zero value.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Generally, the arguments against Serini so far seem to be based on making the most uncharitable interpretations of what she's doing and ascribing the most uncharitable motivations to her for doing it.
    Well that would be the perspective of people who think that Serini is doing all the right stuff. I think (and probably most who think she isn't) might say those who are defending Serini are twisting everything she has done into the most charitable light.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    I'm responding to Peelee, but since Peelee quoted this, I'll respond to this. Nobody is saying that Serini is actively trying to help Xykon, or that she wants Xykon to win. That is a far more uncharitable interpretation/motivation than just saying she is letting things take their course unless said thing happens to be a Paladin, a member of the Order, or (possibly) Minrah.
    At least one person has repeatedly described what Serini is doing as "letting Xykon have the gate."

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    if you say "nobody ever said X" and there is a point where someone literally said X, you should not be surprised when you get that as a rebuttal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Well that would be the perspective of people who think that Serini is doing all the right stuff. I think (and probably most who think she isn't) might say those who are defending Serini are twisting everything she has done into the most charitable light.
    OK, but what if you're not rubber and I'm not glue?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirggzmb View Post
    As far as I can tell, the gate defenses are doing fine as is. Not one on team evil has any inkling about the decoy dungeons they've been being teleported into. On top of that, I'd be shocked if you didn't still have to find the correct tunnel even after you've figured out the teleport trick. Plus whatever defenses are in the real tunnels.

    So I don't necessarily blame Serini for not wanting to join up with the group of adventurers who as far as she knows wants to go mucking around trying to find the gate and probably causing more problems than they solve. Any talk about preferring to let Xykon have the gate vs blowing up the gate to prevent him from getting it struck me as mostly hypothetical. "If it comes down to it" kind of talk.
    The main thing I'm worried about is TE levelling up. Oona and MitD aren't aligned with Xykon, but the fact that both Xykon and Redcloak are actively gaining experience is troubling.

    Serini might be banking on the whole 'Redcloak hits epic and fixes a gate' plan, but considering that she hasn't struck yet, the only other idea I can think of is 'super deadly trap once they figure out the trick', but that gets progressively less likely to work as her targets get more prepared, higher levelled, and with more magical gear.

    If RC does go Epic, it might be more helpful than anything else in Serini's eyes. After all, the destruction of four gates has already put a pretty tight clock on the lifetime of the world, and fixing the gates will do a lot for that problem. A keen awareness of the fact that the world doesn't have long because of those destroyed gates probably doesn't do anything good for her attitude toward the protagonists.

    I'm thinking that Serini's ideal plan is 'TE gets strong enough to fix all the gates, rules the world for a while, and then gets overthrown'. Still not a best-case scenario, but she might see it as better than defeating Xykon.
    I like heated water, not heated arguments.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    if you say "nobody ever said X" and there is a point where someone literally said X, you should not be surprised when you get that as a rebuttal.
    Did you mean to say something about that? Or am I just confusing myself?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-03-26 at 06:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Peelee's genius status confirmed
    Seconded.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Did you mean to say something about that? Or am I just confusing myself?
    I believe (could be wrong) they were using it to support what they had said just above.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I have never accused Roy of being a coward for that - merely that if I am reading you correctly the logic you apply to Serini would seem to brand him one.
    You have then tried a few versions of 'but no you see in that case' and I have found all of them unconvincing.
    By destroying the Gate Roy chose to face danger even at the risk of his own safety, Serini's doing everything possible to avoid it even at the expense of others.
    Thus the latter is a coward.

    It's as simple as it goes, not sure what's unconvincing about it, but I suspect you don't wanna be convinced.
    Guess I'll live with that notion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dausuul View Post
    She said "We're finally doing this, huh?" We don't know what "this" is, but she is doing something, and it is something she has been contemplating for a while ("finally"), and she expects her own annihilation to follow.
    Defending her Gate?
    Sometimes the simplest answer is the right one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dausuul View Post
    In the brief time she's been talking to Lien and O-Chul, we have already seen her lie to them twice, saying the second time, "You never really forget how to lie to a paladin!" On top of that, she said "Not much point in me giving you the spiel on why I'm doing this," followed by giving them the exact spiel she just said there was no point in giving them. She's done everything but stand on a rooftop screaming "EVERYTHING I AM TELLING YOU IS A LIE!"
    Except she didn't. She lied to the paladins when she had a tactical advantage to get (capturing them) or for fun (freeing them).
    There's no indication every single thing she said was a lie, that's your speculation.
    Especially when her explanation and her actions coincide completely.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganbatte View Post
    By destroying the Gate Roy chose to face danger even at the risk of his own safety
    No he didn't.
    He decided he couldn't win and so broke the Gate trying to defend it (i.e avoid a fight) - if he thought he could have won then breaking the Gate would make no sense.

    Do you believe that Roy intended to fight Xykon at Girard's Gate after he destroyed it?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Did you mean to say something about that? Or am I just confusing myself?
    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I believe (could be wrong) they were using it to support what they had said just above.
    That's right.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    No he didn't.
    He decided he couldn't win and so broke the Gate trying to defend it (i.e avoid a fight) - if he thought he could have won then breaking the Gate would make no sense.
    Think. Stop and think.
    All Roy had to do was... do nothing. Stay in the shadows. Keep hidden under some illusion. Be silent. Avoid all enemies.

    Instead he chose to destroy Girard's Gate, giving away his position first to Nale and immediately to Xykon as he arrived. Getting disintegrated and beat.

    {Scrubbed}

    Do you believe that Roy intended to fight Xykon at Girard's Gate after he destroyed it?
    I believe he was solving one problem at a time there, and the Gate was priority, Xykon to be thought of later.
    Last edited by truemane; 2021-03-27 at 12:44 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    OK, but what if you're not rubber and I'm not glue?
    Well the truth is we are probably all a bit rubber and all a bit glue. We are all a little guilty of what we accuse each other of (we just see it more clearly in those we disagree with), and we are all inclined to throw the accusations back and forth.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-03-26 at 07:40 PM.

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