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2021-03-28, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Wait, no xp for everyone's favorite nihilist philosopher? Discrimination! (^_~)
More seriously, about the dwarves: I didn't think about it, but under the circumstances just surviving was a minor victory. Let alone roleplay xp (walking into an extremely risky situation because they believe it's right, trying to talk it out to avoid needless deaths, making some convincing points and giving the Big Bad at least pause to think)... and then there's Minrah's quick thinking. Considering her low level, I wouldn't be surprised if Minrah dings soon (if that's even still being depicted).
Maybe just me, but in most situations it seems really messed up for someone to guilt themselves over others' actions if they have no true control over them. It's a slippery slope that ends up with the PFJ declaring that if Pilate doesn't accede to their demands and dismantle the entire apparatus of the Roman Empire within 24 hours, he bears full responsibility for them chopping his wife to pieces.
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2021-03-28, 11:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2021
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Pretty much agreed*, I was thinking of this more as "the comic is an examination of the absurdity that occurs when you mix d&d mechanics with the more realistic and fleshed out of kind of characters that we actually try to make in stories/roleplay" not about the characters as though they were people.
In a story, it's unequivocally Good to make attempts to redeem Evil characters. If, mechanically, an attempt to redeem a character allows him a cool soapbox moment to showcase himself as a nuanced and sympathetic villain, which ultimately makes him more powerful via roleplay xp, then is that a risk that a Good character should not take? Answer: it's absurd that we could even ask.
*By which I mean minor quibble that it's not messed up for the person to do, but it would be messed up to encourage it or consider it required, but I figure that's what you meant.
Thank you so much, I knew someone would pull through.
So Redcloak definitely is getting significant chunks of xp here, because he's lower level than Xykon and doesn't have any extra barriers applied.
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2021-03-28, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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2021-03-29, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Since he's with Team Evil it's diluted somewhat, but he probably has gotten a fair amount of XP.
Really, I'm more worried about Redcloak levelling up than Xykon. Xykon's high enough that an extra level is mostly just a few more hit points and +1 CL. Redcloak already got 9th-level spells back in Azure City, but he still gets more 7th~9th-level slots plus a feat.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2021-03-29, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
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2021-03-29, 02:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2021
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
A sorcerer's number of spells per day does not increase after 20th level, and they also do not get additional spells.
He only gets three epic feats total, at levels 23, 26, and 29. Since we don't know what level he is, it's possible that his next level includes a feat. (Maybe a 1/3 chance, if all we know is he's at least at 21?)Last edited by Good Coyote; 2021-03-29 at 02:30 AM.
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2021-03-29, 02:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Slightly wrong, you can always pick up Epic feats with normal feat slots after level 20. So he could pick up epic feats at level 24, level 27, and level 30 as well(and so forth).
I'm not sure if there are really that many Epic feats he can pick up, can utilize right now, and presumably didn't have already or doesn't do something he already could. Maybe pick up Epic Spell Knowledge for more spells, but not much else. Still, I wouldn't want him to level up if I could help it.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2021-03-29, 03:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
This is true of anything Xykon does while a free lich in the world and not exclusively Serini's fault. If Xykon truly wanted to farm XP, he could just Plane Shift/Astral Projection/Gate somewhere to do it, since he has the spell to do so and the most powerful creatures that would give him XP are extraplanar.
There is literally nothing stopping Xykon from farming XP in one of the Hells if he wanted to. He'd just probably find it boring.Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2021-03-29 at 03:05 AM.
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2021-03-29, 03:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
There does seem to be an especially high concentration of high level monsters here. Not sure where else he could find that, including in hells (if he can get there easily).
To be clear, I don't think that's Serini's fault - I'm sure getting powerful monsters to defend the gates seemed a good idea at the time. But I do think the probability that Xykon and his allies will just keep getting stronger is another reason why Serini is exercising poor judgment (on the basis of what she knows) by preventing the paladins and their' allies from striking now.
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2021-03-29, 03:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Again, reminder that only some of the monsters Xykon fought gave him any XP at all, and we don't know how much.
And if he wanted to find an equally high concentration of high-level monsters, all Xykon needs to do is literally just approach the lair of an archdevil or demon prince, and some are actually weak enough to be defeated (but not permanently killed) by epic-level spellcasters.
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2021-03-29, 04:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
To be fair, "random asshat Plane Shifts in and destroys the entire realm of an archfiend" is something that would put you on the craplist of a lot of powerful planar beings.
Evil is not one big happy family, especially not in OotS, but "the enemy of my enemy" is just "the enemy of my enemy".
Also Xykon's powerful, but he's suboptimal enough that on paper at least, an archdevil or demon lord played with moderate intelligence isn't going to go down that easily. Remember, the archdevils in Fiendish Codex I are aspects, and while Fiendish Codex II kinda screwed over the demon lords it's not much of a stretch to assume that of them too. Savage Tide basically goes that route.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2021-03-29, 05:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
I don't see how "random asshat takes control of the entire Material Plane" is going to make Xykon any less of an enemy to the fiends that have to, you know, conduct business there. Like sure, he might be good for business for *some* fiends, but I'm sure he'll be bad for others, and that'd be about as destructive to them as Xykon personally planeshifting in to farm their high-level minions for XP.
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2021-03-29, 06:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
I read his surprise at getting some to mean he usually gets none, and in these caverns he is getting it from some monsters - so perhaps not a consistent diet of xp like his companions but a few monster each dungeons.
We don't know how easily Xykon can find the lair of a devil or demon that is strong enough for him to defeat, but still gives xp or whether they;d be grouped together in this way. But I don't think the counterfactual of whether he would be getting more experience here or if he was deliberately grinding is that relevant (partly because he probably wouldn;t otherwise be grinding).
The point is that he is potentially getting stronger. So Serini's plan of trying to stop the current adventurers from confronting him and hoping some future adventurers do seems less likely to work out the way she hopes. The current set of adventurers may have more chance of defeating him, and the hypothetical future group might have more chance of losing so choosing to destroy the gate instead - based simply on the fact that Xykon and/or his allies will be more powerful in the future. That is besides whatever powerup the gate itself will give him.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-03-29 at 06:19 AM.
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2021-03-29, 07:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Well, a random asshat who 'ported in and blew up an entire Abyss floor is probably a bit easier than a random asshat who literally has a god-killing abomination under his control.
Honestly, if Serini knew about Xykon like we did she might feel even more helpless; half the Order can't do crap against him and the other half isn't that great at it either. I'm betting that the only way to defeat him is to shove him through a rift so the Snarl eats him.
That's part of the reason I really disagree with her though; they need everything they can get to have a ghost of a chance and she's undermining what little they have. She's not literally showing him to the Gate but she's prioritizing "don't let the Gate blow up" way more than "don't let Xykon of all beings get his phlanges on the Gate".
Really, I'm headcanoning that she didn't listen to the casters when they were adventuring and just assumes the Snarl is a generic doomsday device rather than, you know, a god-slaying abomination.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2021-03-29, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
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2021-03-29, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
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2021-03-29, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
I don't think that's right. She basically says in comic 1229 that she is open to the possibility of him getting the gate in the hope that someone will take it back from him a few years later. She certainly confirms that she's willing to let him get the gate if that reduces the risk of the gate being destroyed (although I think she's missed the possibility of the gate being destroyed if he gets it).
I agree with her that it would be naive to think her defences would keep him our for ever. All defences do their job until they don't anymore, and Xykon (and his allies) are resourceful enough theat they'd figure it out sooner or later. They'd just have to figure out that there's magic impeding them and a Xykon level dispel would take care of the toughest part of the defenses.
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2021-03-29, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
That... doesn't follow.
High CR enemies are rare. Monster Hollow has many high CR enemies. Monster Hollow allows Xykon to grind XP way faster than he normally could.
MITD's marks change nothing. They beat a set number of doors per day. There are very many doors to pick from. The false flags only slow their progress to the gate, and thus increases their opportunities to grind. On the short term, it even made them fight monsters they weren't expecting to, granting them more XP.
Exactly.
Furthermore, if he does get the gate, then he can entrench his position. Make a second fortress.
Whether or not Xykon will grind enough to get a level from this, he still gains valuable loot, which we have seen him equip, and thus becomes stronger. In addition, Redcloak and Oona are getting a lot more XP, and are very likely to gain levels. They, too, are also getting magic items.Attention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2021-03-29, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
They might be rare in the Material Plane, but Xykon is not bound to such places, as evidenced by the fact that he built a tomb-fortress-thingie in the Astral Plane. The average CR of creatures in other planes is MUCH higher, and as I told another poster, there are locations where high-level enemies concentrate as well.
MITD's marks are denying Xykon XP. This is an indisputable fact. They may not deny him forever, for he may discover the ruse at some point, but they are doing so temporarily, and the fact that Serini hasn't gone and cleared the paint off the doors Xykon hasn't been to is along the same lines as "she hasn't told him how to get to the Gate". Despite what people have been saying, Serini doesn't actually want to help Xykon to get to the Gate or get any stronger.Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2021-03-29 at 07:58 PM.
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2021-03-29, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
The extra marked doors aren't denying Xykon XP as long as he's running through as many doors as he feels capable of handling. The limiting factor, so far, is Xykon's capacity for damage, not the number of doors. The extra markings only deny Xykon XP if he runs out of doors, and stops.
That's assuming that the doors being falsely marked have no particular correlation with their contents, of course. If the MitD were to somehow focus on marking doors that would give Xykon a higher ratio of XP to resources expended than average, so he didn't get that bonus, it would be different. Suppose only 10% of the doors led to dungeons with tough enough monsters that Xykon could get XP. If Xykon stayed away from all of those dungeons, no matter how much time and effort he put into dungeoneering, he'd never get any XP.
It would be interesting if they encountered a member of the MitD's species in one of the dungeons.
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2021-03-30, 03:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
I think someone will heroically sacrifice themselves to bullrush someone into the Snarl, so I guess you can write that down as my wildly specifc prediction. On Xykon getting stronger, honestly he has reached a point where he both get's very little XP from anything, while also even if he does get a level it really won't change his power a whole lot. I feel when you get to the point where you're past early epic, your power caps and anything above that matters extremely little.
Last edited by ebarde; 2021-03-30 at 03:30 AM.