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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'd say both goblinoids and dwarves would have gotten XP there, but that's just the kind of DM I am.
    Wait, no xp for everyone's favorite nihilist philosopher? Discrimination! (^_~)

    More seriously, about the dwarves: I didn't think about it, but under the circumstances just surviving was a minor victory. Let alone roleplay xp (walking into an extremely risky situation because they believe it's right, trying to talk it out to avoid needless deaths, making some convincing points and giving the Big Bad at least pause to think)... and then there's Minrah's quick thinking. Considering her low level, I wouldn't be surprised if Minrah dings soon (if that's even still being depicted).

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    Hmm. The existence of roleplay xp changes the entire game to me.

    Like... should you actively avoid having meaningful conversations with Evil people?

    Hold up, did Haley mess up ethically by allowing Crystal to become her personal nemesis? Every time she got stronger, she made an evil person stronger who she knew was actively running around hurting people in her hometown.

    Obviously... she was a teenager at the time, so it's at worst "oh no I was careless when I was young and it ended up hurting people."

    Really interesting consequence of the mechanics as written.
    Maybe just me, but in most situations it seems really messed up for someone to guilt themselves over others' actions if they have no true control over them. It's a slippery slope that ends up with the PFJ declaring that if Pilate doesn't accede to their demands and dismantle the entire apparatus of the Roman Empire within 24 hours, he bears full responsibility for them chopping his wife to pieces.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Maybe just me, but in most situations it seems really messed up for someone to guilt themselves over others' actions if they have no true control over them. It's a slippery slope that ends up with the PFJ declaring that if Pilate doesn't accede to their demands and dismantle the entire apparatus of the Roman Empire within 24 hours, he bears full responsibility for them chopping his wife to pieces.
    Pretty much agreed*, I was thinking of this more as "the comic is an examination of the absurdity that occurs when you mix d&d mechanics with the more realistic and fleshed out of kind of characters that we actually try to make in stories/roleplay" not about the characters as though they were people.

    In a story, it's unequivocally Good to make attempts to redeem Evil characters. If, mechanically, an attempt to redeem a character allows him a cool soapbox moment to showcase himself as a nuanced and sympathetic villain, which ultimately makes him more powerful via roleplay xp, then is that a risk that a Good character should not take? Answer: it's absurd that we could even ask.

    *By which I mean minor quibble that it's not messed up for the person to do, but it would be messed up to encourage it or consider it required, but I figure that's what you meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    How much XP gets and from what depends on how Rich calculates Xykon's ECL and what it is.

    For example, Malack was presumably a Vampire Yuan-Ti Abomination Cleric 11~12; this would make him have a ridiculously high ECL that makes the Scribblers look like rank amateurs(I think ECL 19 or so before class levels). By CR, though, that'd be CR 16~17 or so, which is in the ballpark for what I assume the Legion to be around. I don't think Malack would have gained any levels whatsoever ever since becoming a vampire if Rich had strictly stuck to the ECL rules, which are stupid and frankly seem to primarily be a way of screwing over monstrous PCs.

    Xykon is a lich, which is a +4 LA template but "only" +2 CR. We don't know his level, but he's at least level 21 and some calculations put him at 26th level or higher. This puts the lower end of what Xykon's ECL might be treated as at 23 and the highish end at 30+. As you don't usually get XP from monsters 7 or more CR lower than your ECL, this means the dungeon's strongest monsters are at minimum CR 16 and may very well be Solar-tier or higher(CR 23+).
    Thank you so much, I knew someone would pull through.

    So Redcloak definitely is getting significant chunks of xp here, because he's lower level than Xykon and doesn't have any extra barriers applied.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    Pretty much agreed*, I was thinking of this more as "the comic is an examination of the absurdity that occurs when you mix d&d mechanics with the more realistic and fleshed out of kind of characters that we actually try to make in stories/roleplay" not about the characters as though they were people.

    In a story, it's unequivocally Good to make attempts to redeem Evil characters. If, mechanically, an attempt to redeem a character allows him a cool soapbox moment to showcase himself as a nuanced and sympathetic villain, which ultimately makes him more powerful via roleplay xp, then is that a risk that a Good character should not take? Answer: it's absurd that we could even ask.

    *By which I mean minor quibble that it's not messed up for the person to do, but it would be messed up to encourage it or consider it required, but I figure that's what you meant.
    I would say it also depends on what DM is the god of the universe. (^_~)

    Imo, a good DM sticks pretty close to the rules... but finds the best compromise when rules have results contradictory to their purpose and/or logic.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    Thank you so much, I knew someone would pull through.

    So Redcloak definitely is getting significant chunks of xp here, because he's lower level than Xykon and doesn't have any extra barriers applied.
    Since he's with Team Evil it's diluted somewhat, but he probably has gotten a fair amount of XP.

    Really, I'm more worried about Redcloak levelling up than Xykon. Xykon's high enough that an extra level is mostly just a few more hit points and +1 CL. Redcloak already got 9th-level spells back in Azure City, but he still gets more 7th~9th-level slots plus a feat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Since he's with Team Evil it's diluted somewhat, but he probably has gotten a fair amount of XP.

    Really, I'm more worried about Redcloak levelling up than Xykon. Xykon's high enough that an extra level is mostly just a few more hit points and +1 CL. Redcloak already got 9th-level spells back in Azure City, but he still gets more 7th~9th-level slots plus a feat.
    Doesn't Xykon get some sort of epic feat and more spells per level if her levels up.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Doesn't Xykon get some sort of epic feat and more spells per level if her levels up.
    A sorcerer's number of spells per day does not increase after 20th level, and they also do not get additional spells.

    He only gets three epic feats total, at levels 23, 26, and 29. Since we don't know what level he is, it's possible that his next level includes a feat. (Maybe a 1/3 chance, if all we know is he's at least at 21?)
    Last edited by Good Coyote; 2021-03-29 at 02:30 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    A sorcerer's number of spells per day does not increase after 20th level, and they also do not get additional spells.

    He only gets three epic feats total, at levels 23, 26, and 29. Since we don't know what level he is, it's possible that his next level includes a feat. (Maybe a 1/3 chance, if all we know is he's at least at 21?)
    Slightly wrong, you can always pick up Epic feats with normal feat slots after level 20. So he could pick up epic feats at level 24, level 27, and level 30 as well(and so forth).

    I'm not sure if there are really that many Epic feats he can pick up, can utilize right now, and presumably didn't have already or doesn't do something he already could. Maybe pick up Epic Spell Knowledge for more spells, but not much else. Still, I wouldn't want him to level up if I could help it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Xykon gaining experience is rare, and this is one of the few times he does get the opportunity to get stronger. For me that supports Goblin Priest's points that the odds are getting tougher the longer they let Xykon go on.
    This is true of anything Xykon does while a free lich in the world and not exclusively Serini's fault. If Xykon truly wanted to farm XP, he could just Plane Shift/Astral Projection/Gate somewhere to do it, since he has the spell to do so and the most powerful creatures that would give him XP are extraplanar.

    There is literally nothing stopping Xykon from farming XP in one of the Hells if he wanted to. He'd just probably find it boring.
    Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2021-03-29 at 03:05 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    This is true of anything Xykon does while a free lich in the world and not exclusively Serini's fault. If Xykon truly wanted to farm XP, he could just Plane Shift/Astral Projection/Gate somewhere to do it, since he has the spell to do so and the most powerful creatures that would give him XP are extraplanar.

    There is literally nothing stopping Xykon from farming XP in one of the Hells if he wanted to. He'd just probably find it boring.
    There does seem to be an especially high concentration of high level monsters here. Not sure where else he could find that, including in hells (if he can get there easily).

    To be clear, I don't think that's Serini's fault - I'm sure getting powerful monsters to defend the gates seemed a good idea at the time. But I do think the probability that Xykon and his allies will just keep getting stronger is another reason why Serini is exercising poor judgment (on the basis of what she knows) by preventing the paladins and their' allies from striking now.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    There does seem to be an especially high concentration of high level monsters here. Not sure where else he could find that, including in hells (if he can get there easily).
    Again, reminder that only some of the monsters Xykon fought gave him any XP at all, and we don't know how much.

    And if he wanted to find an equally high concentration of high-level monsters, all Xykon needs to do is literally just approach the lair of an archdevil or demon prince, and some are actually weak enough to be defeated (but not permanently killed) by epic-level spellcasters.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    To be fair, "random asshat Plane Shifts in and destroys the entire realm of an archfiend" is something that would put you on the craplist of a lot of powerful planar beings.

    Evil is not one big happy family, especially not in OotS, but "the enemy of my enemy" is just "the enemy of my enemy".

    Also Xykon's powerful, but he's suboptimal enough that on paper at least, an archdevil or demon lord played with moderate intelligence isn't going to go down that easily. Remember, the archdevils in Fiendish Codex I are aspects, and while Fiendish Codex II kinda screwed over the demon lords it's not much of a stretch to assume that of them too. Savage Tide basically goes that route.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    To be fair, "random asshat Plane Shifts in and destroys the entire realm of an archfiend" is something that would put you on the craplist of a lot of powerful planar beings.

    Evil is not one big happy family, especially not in OotS, but "the enemy of my enemy" is just "the enemy of my enemy".

    Also Xykon's powerful, but he's suboptimal enough that on paper at least, an archdevil or demon lord played with moderate intelligence isn't going to go down that easily. Remember, the archdevils in Fiendish Codex I are aspects, and while Fiendish Codex II kinda screwed over the demon lords it's not much of a stretch to assume that of them too. Savage Tide basically goes that route.
    I don't see how "random asshat takes control of the entire Material Plane" is going to make Xykon any less of an enemy to the fiends that have to, you know, conduct business there. Like sure, he might be good for business for *some* fiends, but I'm sure he'll be bad for others, and that'd be about as destructive to them as Xykon personally planeshifting in to farm their high-level minions for XP.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Again, reminder that only some of the monsters Xykon fought gave him any XP at all, and we don't know how much.

    And if he wanted to find an equally high concentration of high-level monsters, all Xykon needs to do is literally just approach the lair of an archdevil or demon prince, and some are actually weak enough to be defeated (but not permanently killed) by epic-level spellcasters.
    I read his surprise at getting some to mean he usually gets none, and in these caverns he is getting it from some monsters - so perhaps not a consistent diet of xp like his companions but a few monster each dungeons.

    We don't know how easily Xykon can find the lair of a devil or demon that is strong enough for him to defeat, but still gives xp or whether they;d be grouped together in this way. But I don't think the counterfactual of whether he would be getting more experience here or if he was deliberately grinding is that relevant (partly because he probably wouldn;t otherwise be grinding).

    The point is that he is potentially getting stronger. So Serini's plan of trying to stop the current adventurers from confronting him and hoping some future adventurers do seems less likely to work out the way she hopes. The current set of adventurers may have more chance of defeating him, and the hypothetical future group might have more chance of losing so choosing to destroy the gate instead - based simply on the fact that Xykon and/or his allies will be more powerful in the future. That is besides whatever powerup the gate itself will give him.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-03-29 at 06:19 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    I don't see how "random asshat takes control of the entire Material Plane" is going to make Xykon any less of an enemy to the fiends that have to, you know, conduct business there. Like sure, he might be good for business for *some* fiends, but I'm sure he'll be bad for others, and that'd be about as destructive to them as Xykon personally planeshifting in to farm their high-level minions for XP.
    Well, a random asshat who 'ported in and blew up an entire Abyss floor is probably a bit easier than a random asshat who literally has a god-killing abomination under his control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    I read his surprise at getting some to mean he usually gets none, and in these caverns he is getting it from some monsters - so perhaps not a consistent diet of xp like his companions but a few monster each dungeons.

    We don't know how easily Xykon can find the lair of a devil or demon that is strong enough for him to defeat, but still gives xp or whether they;d be grouped together in this way. But I don't think the counterfactual of whether he would be getting more experience here or if he was deliberately grinding is that relevant (partly because he probably wouldn;t otherwise be grinding).

    The point is that he is potentially getting stronger. So Serini's plan of trying to stop the current adventurers from confronting him and hoping some future adventurers do seems less likely to work out the way she hopes. The current set of adventurers may have more chance of defeating him, and the hypothetical future group might have more chance of losing so choosing to destroy the gate instead - based simply on the fact that Xykon and/or his allies will be more powerful in the future. That is besides whatever powerup the gate itself will give him.
    Honestly, if Serini knew about Xykon like we did she might feel even more helpless; half the Order can't do crap against him and the other half isn't that great at it either. I'm betting that the only way to defeat him is to shove him through a rift so the Snarl eats him.

    That's part of the reason I really disagree with her though; they need everything they can get to have a ghost of a chance and she's undermining what little they have. She's not literally showing him to the Gate but she's prioritizing "don't let the Gate blow up" way more than "don't let Xykon of all beings get his phlanges on the Gate".

    Really, I'm headcanoning that she didn't listen to the casters when they were adventuring and just assumes the Snarl is a generic doomsday device rather than, you know, a god-slaying abomination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Honestly, if Serini knew about Xykon like we did she might feel even more helpless; half the Order can't do crap against him and the other half isn't that great at it either. I'm betting that the only way to defeat him is to shove him through a rift so the Snarl eats him.

    That's part of the reason I really disagree with her though; they need everything they can get to have a ghost of a chance and she's undermining what little they have. She's not literally showing him to the Gate but she's prioritizing "don't let the Gate blow up" way more than "don't let Xykon of all beings get his phlanges on the Gate".
    I agree with you completely - Xykon is a badass. But he's only going to get tougher.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Well, a random asshat who 'ported in and blew up an entire Abyss floor is probably a bit easier than a random asshat who literally has a god-killing abomination under his control.



    Honestly, if Serini knew about Xykon like we did she might feel even more helpless; half the Order can't do crap against him and the other half isn't that great at it either. I'm betting that the only way to defeat him is to shove him through a rift so the Snarl eats him.

    That's part of the reason I really disagree with her though; they need everything they can get to have a ghost of a chance and she's undermining what little they have. She's not literally showing him to the Gate but she's prioritizing "don't let the Gate blow up" way more than "don't let Xykon of all beings get his phlanges on the Gate".

    Really, I'm headcanoning that she didn't listen to the casters when they were adventuring and just assumes the Snarl is a generic doomsday device rather than, you know, a god-slaying abomination.
    I don't know, i think you are missing the point, Serini is not letting Xikon get the gate at all, i think she is pretty sure he won't pass her defenses.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    I don't know, i think you are missing the point, Serini is not letting Xikon get the gate at all, i think she is pretty sure he won't pass her defenses.
    I don't think that's right. She basically says in comic 1229 that she is open to the possibility of him getting the gate in the hope that someone will take it back from him a few years later. She certainly confirms that she's willing to let him get the gate if that reduces the risk of the gate being destroyed (although I think she's missed the possibility of the gate being destroyed if he gets it).

    I agree with her that it would be naive to think her defences would keep him our for ever. All defences do their job until they don't anymore, and Xykon (and his allies) are resourceful enough theat they'd figure it out sooner or later. They'd just have to figure out that there's magic impeding them and a Xykon level dispel would take care of the toughest part of the defenses.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    Xykon's actual quote: "Some of those ugly bastards were strong enough that I actually gained experience! You know how rare that is at my level?"

    This implies that Xykon gaining experience is actually extremely rare and that, as per his own assertion, only some of the monsters in the dungeon granted him an amount of XP.

    And because the Monster In The Darkness is painting extra doors, he's depriving Xykon of encounters, so in effect, Xykon is earning less XP than he normally would if he was actually checking all the doors. Odds are very high that Serini is aware of this because a) she probably has been keeping an eye on things so she probably has seen the MITD painting extra doors, and/or b) she can probably do basic math and realize they haven't been to as many doors as the ones that are crossed off.

    The assertion that "she's letting Team Evil grind so much" is completely ludicrous.
    That... doesn't follow.

    High CR enemies are rare. Monster Hollow has many high CR enemies. Monster Hollow allows Xykon to grind XP way faster than he normally could.

    MITD's marks change nothing. They beat a set number of doors per day. There are very many doors to pick from. The false flags only slow their progress to the gate, and thus increases their opportunities to grind. On the short term, it even made them fight monsters they weren't expecting to, granting them more XP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Xykon gaining experience is rare, and this is one of the few times he does get the opportunity to get stronger. For me that supports Goblin Priest's points that the odds are getting tougher the longer they let Xykon go on.



    Sure there is. She want's team evil to lose but there's a choice to be made whether to attack now or later (she is expecting someone to topple him in a few years). That Xykon is getting stronger is relevant to the decision whether to attack now or later.
    Exactly.

    Furthermore, if he does get the gate, then he can entrench his position. Make a second fortress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    Xykon only gets stronger if he actually levels up. Otherwise, being 100000000xp from level 29 or being 1xp away from level 29 are identical. He's exactly as strong as he was when he first leveled up to 28. (Or whatever level he currently is.)

    The argument is that since gaining xp at level 28 (or whatever level) is so rare and later levels require such a high amount of xp, it's unlikely that a few monsters who just barely manage to give him xp will allow him to level up. Since it's rare to find the xp at all, he probably hasn't gathered the 9999999 other xp that he also needs in order to level up.

    You could argue that he's still "Getting stronger" in the other ways that you can get better at a game, like learning to use your spells more effectively. But a monster giving him xp isn't evidence that he's able to do that here.
    Whether or not Xykon will grind enough to get a level from this, he still gains valuable loot, which we have seen him equip, and thus becomes stronger. In addition, Redcloak and Oona are getting a lot more XP, and are very likely to gain levels. They, too, are also getting magic items.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    That... doesn't follow.

    High CR enemies are rare. Monster Hollow has many high CR enemies. Monster Hollow allows Xykon to grind XP way faster than he normally could.

    MITD's marks change nothing. They beat a set number of doors per day. There are very many doors to pick from. The false flags only slow their progress to the gate, and thus increases their opportunities to grind. On the short term, it even made them fight monsters they weren't expecting to, granting them more XP.
    They might be rare in the Material Plane, but Xykon is not bound to such places, as evidenced by the fact that he built a tomb-fortress-thingie in the Astral Plane. The average CR of creatures in other planes is MUCH higher, and as I told another poster, there are locations where high-level enemies concentrate as well.

    MITD's marks are denying Xykon XP. This is an indisputable fact. They may not deny him forever, for he may discover the ruse at some point, but they are doing so temporarily, and the fact that Serini hasn't gone and cleared the paint off the doors Xykon hasn't been to is along the same lines as "she hasn't told him how to get to the Gate". Despite what people have been saying, Serini doesn't actually want to help Xykon to get to the Gate or get any stronger.
    Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2021-03-29 at 07:58 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowknight12 View Post
    MITD's marks are denying Xykon XP. This is an indisputable fact. They may not deny him forever, for he may discover the ruse at some point, but they are doing so temporarily, and the fact that Serini hasn't gone and cleared the paint off the doors Xykon hasn't been to is along the same lines as "she hasn't told him how to get to the Gate". Despite what people have been saying, Serini doesn't actually want to help Xykon to get to the Gate or get any stronger.
    The extra marked doors aren't denying Xykon XP as long as he's running through as many doors as he feels capable of handling. The limiting factor, so far, is Xykon's capacity for damage, not the number of doors. The extra markings only deny Xykon XP if he runs out of doors, and stops.

    That's assuming that the doors being falsely marked have no particular correlation with their contents, of course. If the MitD were to somehow focus on marking doors that would give Xykon a higher ratio of XP to resources expended than average, so he didn't get that bonus, it would be different. Suppose only 10% of the doors led to dungeons with tough enough monsters that Xykon could get XP. If Xykon stayed away from all of those dungeons, no matter how much time and effort he put into dungeoneering, he'd never get any XP.

    It would be interesting if they encountered a member of the MitD's species in one of the dungeons.

  21. - Top - End - #1041
    Orc in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    I think someone will heroically sacrifice themselves to bullrush someone into the Snarl, so I guess you can write that down as my wildly specifc prediction. On Xykon getting stronger, honestly he has reached a point where he both get's very little XP from anything, while also even if he does get a level it really won't change his power a whole lot. I feel when you get to the point where you're past early epic, your power caps and anything above that matters extremely little.
    Last edited by ebarde; 2021-03-30 at 03:30 AM.

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