OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

The ifcc want to control the gate and send it to the upper planes, not destroy it.

How do you know they want that?

I mean, that actually sounds plausible. But I'm not sure.

[Nymrod]

Cool potion brewing skills grandma, good luck getting them past a Mind Blank.

As for Xykon ruling the world, he doesn't have the attention span required to rule the world. He will get a lot of people killed but at some point people of sufficient power and with enough information will gang up on him and he will get ****ed up. He lost against Lirian on the first attempt, only managed to win against Dorukan by claiming a unique advantage and completely lost against Soon. If any two of the Scribblers had faced Xykon and Redcloak together, they'd have won. Yeah Xykon will kill a lot of people given the chance but he'd never be able to "rule the world". Not to mention that the entire premise of ruling the world using those Gates makes no sense and the only reason Xykon has been fooled is that he probably has no ranks in Knowledge Arcana.

[Xihirli]

That's one thing that's always put sand in my knickers about heroes invoking the trope "We have to beat the bad guy to the MacGuffin just in the nick of time!".

Unless the heroes have a solid plan for
~ destroying it (in this case, a Very Bad Idea™),
~ concealing it (it already is concealed, better than the Order can do),
~ or moving it (that's RC's plan, and he refuses to take Durkon's word for why it's a VBI)...
what the heck do they think getting there first will accomplish? Especially given that the genre-savvy (or those who have already been there, done that, like the order) can surmise the Bad Guys™ may very well be planning for just that to happen so they can seize it.

Which makes Serini a very, very long way from "insane" to not blindly trust them given the extent of what she knows.

Well, let's look at their plans for Soon's and Girard's Gate.

Their plan was, in both cases, to ally with its current protectors to improve the defenses that already existed. This almost worked with Soon's Gate, and failed with Girard's gate because all of its protectors were killed. With Girard, Roy then decided to destroy the gate once their plan of conjuring some celestials to help guard the gate failed.

Looking at their behavior with Kraagor's Gate, neither the Paladins nor the Order have made any steps toward actually finding the Gate, only attempts at conversion or attrition of enemy forces. So its seems that the heroes agree with you.

[Ionathus]

Does Serini even know Option #2 on your list is a possibility? From what I know, all Serini knows what will happen if her Gate is destroyed, and the Snarl gets loose, is Option #1.

EDIT: For that matter, how does the timeline and the specifics for, "Gods Destroy The World," work? Can the Gods unmake the World, give the Snarl the finger, and build another World? If so, how long does that take? Do they need a Gate to still exist in order to do that, or can they do it in the interval between, 'last Gate gone/Snarl loose" and 'Snarl makes it up to Upper Planes, Deicide Ensues?' How long would it take a released Snarl to make it to the Upper Planes? Is it appreciably shortened if Team Evil moves the last Gate to, e.g., Asgard?

I'd imagine for Serini, both Options are functionally identical. All the big theological & philosophical questions aren't worth beans if she wants to keep living in the here and now.

RE: your edit: pretty sure "the gods unmake the world right after the last gate blows" isn't on the table, because Loki said at the Godsmoot they'd have to agree to that plan...and the Godsmoot hasn't moved on from the actual vote to destroy the world NOW, so they can't propose further action items to vote on.

The ifcc want to control the gate and send it to the upper planes, not destroy it.

That's a theory, not a statement of fact. We still don't know their plans.

[hroþila]

Does Serini even know Option #2 on your list is a possibility? From what I know, all Serini knows what will happen if her Gate is destroyed, and the Snarl gets loose, is Option #1.

#276

Shojo: Soon and his allies learned that the gods could remake the prison without the rifts... but to do so would require the raw threads of reality that were currently being used by the world.
Vaarsuvius: So they could fix it, if they let the entire world be undone again first.
Shojo: Right. They agreed it was best to not let things deteriorate to the point where the gods felt they had no choice but to destroy the world to rebuild the prison.

Serini knows the gods can destroy the world before the Snarl does. The language is a bit ambiguous, since "undone" could mean they thought the outcome of both options would be the same (ceasing to exist altogether), but that's not the only possible way to interpret it, and personally I don't think it's the most likely interpretation - I believe it merely refers to the physical world being destroyed, including bodies, but not souls.

[dancrilis]

I don't really see any motivation for Xykon to even care about TDO, much less want him to die. What would Xykon get out of that?

Because killing a god is steak, rubbing it in the face of that god's high priest is gravy, doing it after that high priest faciliated you doing it is dessert and doing while that high priest thinks he was fooling you is sprinkles.

Plus, it's been pretty thoroughly established that Xykon doesn't care about all the "thinky" bits of magic. He even asked Tsukiko to do his Ritual homework for him! I don't really see him getting book-smart enough to even understand that the Ritual doesn't do what he thinks it does...much less actively alter it...?

You believe that the guy with epic levels of knowledge (arcane) and spellcraft and who researches custom spells is not up on the book-smarts bits of magic.

[drazen]

While I am not sure if levels 13-16 are 'mid level' they are a far cry from epic.

Nitpick: V cast Telepathic Bond on six other individuals in addition to themself (five Order members, plus Minrah), plus Blackwing (a freebie, as I understand it). Someone said it's 3 levels/person for that spell. Assuming the caster doesn't count, V would need L18 casting to do that. With an Iuon Stone, that's L17, not 16.

I also thought Haley and Elan might combine to be more than 17+ by now.

Durkon and Roy probably lag the group by a fair bit due to their deaths and resurrections.

[BloodSquirrel]

As for Xykon ruling the world, he doesn't have the attention span required to rule the world. He will get a lot of people killed but at some point people of sufficient power and with enough information will gang up on him and he will get ****ed up. He lost against Lirian on the first attempt, only managed to win against Dorukan by claiming a unique advantage and completely lost against Soon. If any two of the Scribblers had faced Xykon and Redcloak together, they'd have won. Yeah Xykon will kill a lot of people given the chance but he'd never be able to "rule the world". Not to mention that the entire premise of ruling the world using those Gates makes no sense and the only reason Xykon has been fooled is that he probably has no ranks in Knowledge Arcana.

He lost against Lirian when he was mortal. When he was a Lich, he brutally executed her. He also dispatched Serini casually. Then he assaulted Dorukan and Soon's best defenses that they had decades to construct.

The only Scribbler who put up a serious fight against Xykon was Dorukan. Even with Soon, it was a positive energy being he was fighting (actually, a bunch of them) that was tied to the throne room, and not the flesh-and-blood paladin that would have been far more vulnerable.

[EmperorSarda]

I always interpreted that as Xykon being too lazy to do the work himself. He wants to be ready when the time comes but he doesn't want to do his homework, so he asks Tsukiko to do it for him.

I think there is a certain amount of laziness to it, yeah. But also his intelligence is a factor too. Xykon is street smart. He's trope savvy. He's cunning. But he's not book smart. So it is both. He doesn't understand his half of the ritual, but also doesn't want to research it himself.

[Fyraltari]

Eh, I'd bet against that. Xykon may be savvy, but he's really not a patient person. All of his plans and schemes and decision-making are about how he can amuse himself the most, in the moment. I wouldn't rule out him having a clue that things aren't 100% on the level with the Ritual, but I just don't buy that he's just waiting to Shaggy Dog Story the main Villainous Plot of the comic. All that for a slightly-meaner-than-usual death for Redcloak? Doesn't seem like his style.

You're forgetting that he gets to watch Recloak squirm under his own guilt for years on end. He really gets a constant kicker out of that, I think. For example there was that time he told Tsukiko to call Redcloak "Wrong-Eye" every time she feels like putting him down. I bet he was really proud of him when he thought of that one. Xykon spent a lot of time grooming Redcloak into his personal chew toy, but that rests on their following the Plan, so as he has nothing to do I can see Xykon following the Plan for the sole purpose of torturing Redcloak even if he doesn't really believe itnwould make him king of the world anymore.

[Dragonus45]

Yeah, okay, but I'm still putting my quatloos on Serini not being stopped solely by how good a fight the Order put up.

Well narratively yea, the comic is more then just the pure math of 3.5

[Ionathus]

Because killing a god is steak, rubbing it in the face of that god's high priest is gravy, doing it after that high priest faciliated you doing it is dessert and doing while that high priest thinks he was fooling you is sprinkles.

Xykon wants to rule the world. He has said that multiple times. He does not seem to care about anything else. In particular, he has never shown even the slightest interest in the goblinoids' plight or The Dark One. He has never asked any questions about TDO. He has, as far as I can remember, only made a single reference to TDO, in 1039: "I've been waiting 45 minutes for your mortal ass to finish playing Mother-May-I with the Dim One."

Why would Xykon go back on his previously-stated and completely-in-character goal of ruling the world, to kill a god he doesn't care about, all to spite his First Minion who he only barely cares about?

You believe that the guy with epic levels of knowledge (arcane) and spellcraft and who researches custom spells is not up on the book-smarts bits of magic.

Has Xykon researched or cast any custom spells? Has he invented any? Remember that the Cloister spell is Dorukan's, and at least part of that mojo was from the diadem Dorukan used.

I just don't see that mentality at all, coming from the guy who said

Spoiler: SoD

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Only two things matter: Force in as great a concentration as you can manage, and style. And in a pinch, style can slide.
...
You can have your finely-crafted watch -- give me the sledgehammer to the face any day

.

[Ghosty]

Cool potion brewing skills grandma, good luck getting them past a Mind Blank...

How long's it been since V cast that Mind Blank before the first big Vamp fight? 24 hours? Reason I ask is that every Mind Blank s/he casts is a Sunburst s/he can't, and---as @danielxcutter has been very prolific in pointing out---Sunburst is one of the few ways V can actually harm Xykon. Though I see nothing wrong with the Quickened True Strike/Disintegrate combo spam, mentioned upthread.

Anyway, I'm not sure s/he casted another one. Unless, of course, there's a strip I'm missing where that was explicitly done. Which is really likely, LOL.

[Dr.Zero]

I have no idea where all this talk about Serini not being rational comes from. Her actions make perfect sense with the info she has, even frankly even with the fino we have. Sure, she could team up with the Order and try to destroy Xykon before he even finds the Gate, but I imagine she has already assessed their abilities (she's presumably been getting V's Sendings, she knows about the Order and could have been scrying on them for a while). If she has concluded that they are no match for Xykon even with her help (which, let's be honest, is a perfectly rational conclusion on paper), then it makes sense to get them out of the way just in case they screw things up and put existence itself at risk.

I agree.
Fans seem to be too biased toward the protagonists.
Granted, I'm sure that in the end, given the premises of this comic, the protagonists will be in the right (and prove it to Serini), but her reasoning if far away from the being irrational.

[Fyraltari]

I always interpreted that as Xykon being too lazy to do the work himself. He wants to be ready when the time comes but he doesn't want to do his homework, so he asks Tsukiko to do it for him.

Xykon doesn't need to understand the mecanics of the Ritual to follow it any more than I need a degree in chemistry to follow a recipe. He wanted Tsukiko to check that the Ritual did do as advertised. That's why he lied to Redcloak about not knowing how she got his half of the Ritual. He's always been upfront about not caring about nerd-stuff he wouldn't lie if that were that.

So now the sotuation likely is: Xykon suspects that Redcloak lied to him; Redcloak knows that Xykon suspects that he lied to him; Xykon likely suspects that Redcloak suspects that Xykon suspects that he lied to him; Recloak likely suspects that Xykon suspects that and so on.

[The_Weirdo]

The weird part is Serini is actually acting more Lawful than the Paladins.

She's taking the big-picture, "a few must suffer so the whole must survive", utilitarian view.

So, congrats, lady, for making me side with the Paladins over the Rogue.

It's rational. Repulsive, at least to me, in its greater-good utilitarianism, but rational.

[BloodSquirrel]

The weird part is Serini is actually acting more Lawful than the Paladins.

She's taking the big-picture, "a few must suffer so the whole must survive", utilitarian view.

So, congrats, lady, for making me side with the Paladins over the Rogue.

That's not lawful, that kind of ends-justify-the-means is much closer to chaotic. Utilitarianism and lawfulness are inherently at odds; lawfulness is about following rules, whereas utilitarianism rejects any consideration other than a global estimate of +good vs -bad.

[The_Weirdo]

That's not lawful, that kind of ends-justify-the-means is much closer to chaotic.

Machiavellianism isn't alignment-specific. Ends justifying means can be used for freedom by Chaotics or for harmony by Lawfuls. It can be used to keep a charity going or to get money and power. Lawful tends towards big picture and wide scope, very often at the expense of a few and specifically a few powerless ones. Hence my claim. I'd argue that it's less about rules - not the least of it because there are precious few for that scenario - than about ends and even means. Serini's ends became "preserving the world". The means became "at the cost of comparatively few people suffering under a tyrant". Hence the Lawful part: Non-Evil Lawfuls will tend towards sacrificing the few for the good of the many.

[Itrogash]

Has Xykon researched or cast any custom spells? Has he invented any? Remember that the Cloister spell is Dorukan's, and at least part of that mojo was from the diadem Dorukan used.

Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage comes to mind.

[Ionathus]

The only Scribbler who put up a serious fight against Xykon was Dorukan. Even with Soon, it was a positive energy being he was fighting (actually, a bunch of them) that was tied to the throne room, and not the flesh-and-blood paladin that would have been far more vulnerable.

It doesn't really matter that Soon was a positive-energy being at the time. He still lost to the Sapphire Guard (ignoring Miko's error). That shows that, even as a lich, Xykon is not unkillable. Controlling the Snarl (in the way he and Serini think he'd be able to) would give him a big whopping fantasy Nuke, but it would not make him immortal. Hell, in FFVI, Kefka had the Light of Judgment and he still gets his ass handed to him at the end of the game.

Thinking about it, Kefka is a pretty decent comparison for Xykon's style. Maybe a bit more unhinged and omnicidal.

You're forgetting that he gets to watch Recloak squirm under his own guilt for years on end. He really gets a constant kicker out of that, I think. For example there was that time he told Tsukiko to call Redcloak "Wrong-Eye" every time she feels like putting him down. I bet he was really proud of him when he thought of that one. Xykon spent a lot of time grooming Redcloak into his personal chew toy, but that rests on their following the Plan, so as he has nothing to do I can see Xykon following the Plan for the sole purpose of torturing Redcloak even if he doesn't really believe itnwould make him king of the world anymore.

Yeah, but that's all on the way to the next objective. Bullying your subordinates for lulz while you're doing other, big-picture evil is one thing...willingly going along with a fake plan for years, just because you really like torturing this one goblin and think the payoff will be funny, does not really make sense given what we know about Xykon. That feels more like a pre-character-growth Belkar.

This snippet of a quote, which got The Giant's seal of approval (not canon, I know, but illustrates Xykon's mentality) feels relevant:

Xykon isn't particularly emotionally invested in the Gates - if Kraagor's Gate explodes as well, he'll be irritated, shrug, vapourise Redcloak and move onto the next scheme for world domination, because he has the assets to do so.

[BloodSquirrel]

Machiavellianism isn't alignment-specific. Ends justifying means can be used for freedom by Chaotics or for harmony by Lawfuls. It can be used to keep a charity going or to get money and power. Lawful tends towards big picture and wide scope, very often at the expense of a few and specifically a few powerless ones. Hence my claim.

That's completely wrong.

Stealing money to give to a charity is not lawful behavior, and neither is routinely break your oaths because you're thinking about "the big picture". There's really no room for debate on this- we literally got to see Hinjo and Shojo have it out on this stuff.

[Dr.Zero]

The weird part is Serini is actually acting more Lawful than the Paladins.

She's taking the big-picture, "a few must suffer so the whole must survive", utilitarian view.

So, congrats, lady, for making me side with the Paladins over the Rogue.

It's rational. Repulsive, at least to me, in its greater-good utilitarianism, but rational.

I don't think I can agree with you on this, for various reasons.
Firstly, it's not that in the actual world people don't suffer: her reasoning, beautifully expressed when she talked about status quo, is that there will be a switch about the side suffering.
Secondly, which is strictly connected with the first, she doesn't know the outcome for sure, so it isn't an egoistic choice, like "I save the people I like the most".
Finally, the survivors, if really dislike to be under X, can kill themselves, easily fixing Serini's actions.

[The_Weirdo]

That's completely wrong.

Stealing money to give to a charity is not lawful behavior, and neither is routinely break your oaths because you're thinking about "the big picture". There's really no room for debate on this- we literally got to see Hinjo and Shojo have it out on this stuff.

I didn't say it is Lawful behavior; I said Machiavellianism can be done by all alignments and gave examples thereof.

I don't think I can agree with you on this, for various reasons.
Firstly, it's not that in the actual world people don't suffer: her reasoning, beautifully expressed when she talked about status quo, is that there will be a switch about the side suffering.
Secondly, which is strictly connected with the first, she doesn't know the outcome for sure, so it isn't an egoistic choice, like "I save the people I like the most".
Finally, the survivors, if really dislike to be under X, can kill themselves, easily fixing Serini's actions.

Sure, it's the kind of utilitarian worldview I dislike, but it's not something that I see as universally contemptible. AKA, I strenuously disagree with her, but I understand that a reasonable person might not.

As for suicide, I don't view it as that easy, but okay.

[Peelee]

"Of course you had another choice!" strikes me as something that someone would say, if they really thought it was O-Chul who had swung the blade, and was really PO'd about it. Not someone who knew another person had stepped in and actually done it. Yeah, there's that, "at the time I made that decision," line from O-Chul. Still not buying it. I think she really thinks he did it.

There's real anger and exasperation in that line, and that statement, delivered like she did, fits with what Serini knows and has experienced, working with her party's Paladin for such a long time. It's a nifty piece of writing.

I disagree. She clearly knows someone else used his sword (O-Chul himself acknowledges she knows this), so that's not her reasoning. She knows the paladins chose to destroy the Gate. Whether or not they did is irrelevant. They chose to, they tried to, and someone else succeeded specifically because she saw their attempt to do it.

Serini doesn't care if they would be successful. She cares that they would make the choice to attempt it. She does not believe their protests that they would not. Simple as that.

[Ionathus]

Xykon doesn't need to understand the mecanics of the Ritual to follow it any more than I need a degree in chemistry to follow a recipe. He wanted Tsukiko to check that the Ritual did do as advertised. That's why he lied to Redcloak about not knowing how she got his half of the Ritual. He's always been upfront about not caring about nerd-stuff he wouldn't lie if that were that.

So now the sotuation likely is: Xykon suspects that Redcloak lied to him; Redcloak knows that Xykon suspects that he lied to him; Xykon likely suspects that Redcloak suspects that Xykon suspects that he lied to him; Recloak likely suspects that Xykon suspects that and so on.

Fair point, going back I can easily read the scene in that way as well. But even if Xykon is suspicious about Redcloak's motives, that doesn't mean he'll change how he handles the gate. Xykon is the kind of person who

Spoiler: SoD

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didn't do anything about Right-Eye, put a simple contingency in place (the ring), and waited to see what happens. He did the same with Redcloak: he Geas'd (?) the MitD to kill Redcloak in event of betrayal.

Even if he thinks Redcloak is likely to betray him, Xykon is the type of person to think "I took precautions already, I'm good. Full steam ahead." I just don't see him altering the plan for the Ritual at all. Bullying or killing Redcloak? Sure.

Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage comes to mind.

Touche. Although a joke spell that's intentionally weaker than its regular counterpart doesn't really feel like evidence he's capable of grafting God-killing magic onto a very specifically-designed hybrid Arcane/Divine ritual.

[Heksefatter]

I can definitely see where she's coming from, particularly given the information she likely has.

[Dr.Zero]

As for suicide, I don't view it as that easy, but okay.

It's incredible easy: just run toward one of the NPCs races that will rule the world swinging a sword.
You'll end up dead quite quickly.
Since without Serini you'd end up dead anyway, well, no damage done to you.

This is different from the other circumstances, where I agreed with you (namely: people enslaving other people and the discussion about their right to fight for freedom).

[Doug Lampert]

Here's an example:

Surprise round: she uses Sneak Attack to shoot Haley, Vaarsuvius, and Elan(and maybe Belkar if she has Haste, I guess). She has 11d6 or higher sneak attack, plus any bonus from magical items and such, and they're also poisoned.

Okay, now that I think about it I guess one bolt each is a bit overshooting. V's almost certainly going down though, and maybe another one of the Order.

And considering that Serini has no intentions of having a fair fight, the Order's going to be at a severe disadvantage.

Surprise round is a single action, SHE CAN NOT FULL ATTACK in a surprise round and gets ONE attack.

If V has up Bear's Endurance, a level 2 buff, then she can't even take V out that way on a surprise round unless she gets a crit or the poison takes him down instantly, because she does an average of only 44 HP on a sneak attack normal hit.

[BloodSquirrel]

It doesn't really matter that Soon was a positive-energy being at the time. He still lost to the Sapphire Guard (ignoring Miko's error). That shows that, even as a lich, Xykon is not unkillable.

Yes, it does matter. Xykon killed the entire Sapphire Guard. He did it easily. The paladin ghosts were something that could only be used then and there because it was the heart of their prepared defenses. That's not something that they could have taken and dropped on his head while he was in his own throne room.

Controlling the Snarl (in the way he and Serini think he'd be able to) would give him a big whopping fantasy Nuke, but it would not make him immortal. Hell, in FFVI, Kefka had the Light of Judgment and he still gets his ass handed to him at the end of the game.

Xykon already is immortal. And this isn't a JRPG. He's an epic-level D&D lich, and adventurers powerful enough to threaten him don't just pop out of nowhere. If he was just a level 10 sorcerer with a bit powerful nuke, then sure, some plucky adventurers might be able to get into his castle and kill him. But he's not. He literally laughed off Lirian's attempts to hurt him.

[The_Weirdo]

It's incredible easy: just run toward one of the NPCs races that will rule the world swinging a sword.
You'll end up dead quite quickly.
Since without Serini you'd end up dead anyway, well, no damage done to you.

This is different from the other circumstances, where I agreed with you (namely: people enslaving other people and the discussion about their right to fight for freedom).

Sure, and I agree with you on that. Moreover, I can even understand Serini's views. I don't agree with them, but I appreciate how hard her choice is if we judge it from her perspective.