OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

[understatement]

Thoughts:

I think the strip suggests that Serini didn't scry or observe the Gates; she believes the paladins are responsible for the destruction of all of them (which makes sense. The only people outside of the Scribblers who'd might know about the Gates are Soon's defendants).

And of course Serini doesn't know about Redcloak's Plan -- because only two people on earth know it, and the only reason the Order knows is because a god directly told it to Durkon. She has no reason to assume any alternative Plan then just "Xykon takes Gates, rules world."

I'm pretty excited to see where Punisher Frodo goes.

[dancrilis]

Xykon wants to rule the world. He has said that multiple times. He does not seem to care about anything else. In particular, he has never shown even the slightest interest in the goblinoids' plight or The Dark One. He has never asked any questions about TDO. He has, as far as I can remember, only made a single reference to TDO, in 1039: "I've been waiting 45 minutes for your mortal ass to finish playing Mother-May-I with the Dim One."

Why would Xykon go back on his previously-stated and completely-in-character goal of ruling the world, to kill a god he doesn't care about, all to spite his First Minion who he only barely cares about?

Xykon wants to not be bored - a quest to rule the world is fine for that, but when he effectively had a city at his beck and call he didn't actually do much to rule it - if he does becomes world emperor I don't see him really doing much paperwork, edicts or taxation policy that one might normally expect from such a position.

Has Xykon researched or cast any custom spells? Has he invented any? Remember that the Cloister spell is Dorukan's, and at least part of that mojo was from the diadem Dorukan used.

Xykon's moderately escapable forcecage (as mentioned above) - and unless Dorukan but cloiser on a stone tablet at double the expence of normal research (for some reason) he would have had to research that also same for Epic Mage Armour and Superb Dispelling, he also has some castle creation spells that seem custom, and arguably Greater* Shatter.

[EmperorSarda]

Has Xykon researched or cast any custom spells? Has he invented any? Remember that the Cloister spell is Dorukan's, and at least part of that mojo was from the diadem Dorukan used.
.

Any custom spells are going to come about through experimentation vis a vis charisma. His spellcasting has never come from research. It comes from his innate inborn magic and force of personality. Any new spell will be a result will be trial and error experimentation rather than what Durkon did to research Mass Death Ward. Which I still don't understand how he can research a spell and then ask Thor to be able to cast it.

[One Skunk Todd]

Isn't someone trying to topple Xykon when he had control of a gate how this whole thing(OotS not the prequels) started in the first place? That doesn't seem like a good premise on which to base the security of the WHOLE FRICKING WORLD! :)

[danielxcutter]

Because killing a god is steak, rubbing it in the face of that god's high priest is gravy, doing it after that high priest faciliated you doing it is dessert and doing while that high priest thinks he was fooling you is sprinkles.

Sprinkles on steak and gravy? Truly, he is Evil.

You believe that the guy with epic levels of knowledge (arcane) and spellcraft and who researches custom spells is not up on the book-smarts bits of magic.

I imagine less "up on the smarts" and more "can't be arsed to most of the time and also maybe he wanted a second opinion".

Well narratively yea, the comic is more then just the pure math of 3.5

Fair. Otherwise the comic would have ended during the (possibly advanced considering how big it was) Pit Fiend fight or something.

It doesn't really matter that Soon was a positive-energy being at the time. He still lost to the Sapphire Guard (ignoring Miko's error). That shows that, even as a lich, Xykon is not unkillable. Controlling the Snarl (in the way he and Serini think he'd be able to) would give him a big whopping fantasy Nuke, but it would not make him immortal. Hell, in FFVI, Kefka had the Light of Judgment and he still gets his ass handed to him at the end of the game.

Thinking about it, Kefka is a pretty decent comparison for Xykon's style. Maybe a bit more unhinged and omnicidal.

The Snarl is canonically capable of ripping gods a new one due to being made of more quiddities than anything else in the multiverse, mortals aren't much better.

Of course we know that he's probably not going to end up being able to control it, but you seem to be underestimating what it can do more than a bit.

Yeah, but that's all on the way to the next objective. Bullying your subordinates for lulz while you're doing other, big-picture evil is one thing...willingly going along with a fake plan for years, just because you really like torturing this one goblin and think the payoff will be funny, does not really make sense given what we know about Xykon. That feels more like a pre-character-growth Belkar.

This snippet of a quote, which got The Giant's seal of approval (not canon, I know, but illustrates Xykon's mentality) feels relevant:

Here's how I, personally see it: He's going on with it because there's the chance of him becoming the King of the World^TM and he gets his kicks grinding Redcloak down. Once he's sure that it won't work, he's going to blast Redcloak into a fine mist and then move on.

Surprise round is a single action, SHE CAN NOT FULL ATTACK in a surprise round and gets ONE attack.

If V has up Bear's Endurance, a level 2 buff, then she can't even take V out that way on a surprise round unless she gets a crit or the poison takes him down instantly, because she does an average of only 44 HP on a sneak attack normal hit.

*checks SRD*

Okay, I didn't actually know that. Fair enough, but Serini is probably going to fight dirty. Fighting dirty if you're weak can make up for the difference in power, fighting dirty if you're stronger is devastating.

Also there's no way that crossbow's nonmagical, FWIW.

[KorvinStarmast]

Four times Xykon has attacked a gate, four times a gate has been destroyed.

When has Xykon ever attacked a gate? Xykon is interested in controlling a gate, not attacking one. Go back to the gate under Dorukan's dungeon. He needed a sap of pure heart to get a chance at controlling the gate. Elan almost provided him what he needed until Haley did the grapple.

All she knows is that these paladins and the gaggle of mook adventurers trying to stop Xykon probably can't actually beat him. And she doesn't want to risk it.

I can only hope some members of the order can fill her in on the situation with the gods.

The chances the she listens to them: Low to Zero.

- Xykon emerging victorious will likely result in the world being reset anyway, because may of the gods who voted "no" the first time will switch to "yes" if it means avoiding the Dark One holding them hostage in their own domains and threatening the souls they have there.

Loki mentions a 'no backsies' rule in the Godsmoot, so that 'change the vote' I don't think is going to happen.

- None of her plan accounts for the IFCC, who appear to also want the gates, and whose plans are likely to be significantly longer-term and evil than Xykon's. I suspect they will end up as the true villains in the end, that even the Dark One will agree to oppose.

Not betting against that.

And considering that Serini has no intentions of having a fair fight,

One of the few true things anyone has presented about the hypothetical combat with the Order.

That of course raises the question of "why would Xykon keep humoring Redcloak up until now instead of killing him and the rest of the goblins".

He needs him to do the divine half of the ritual.

As others have said, Serini's logic is sound given the incomplete information she's working with.

Check

"You can't keep knocking over the game board whenever your side starts losing!"

That was a nice cheap shot, and not even true given that the first gate fell before the Order existed, and before the Paladin's gate got destroyed. She's being economical with the facts.

I don't really see any motivation for Xykon to even care about TDO

Check.

Serini thinks she knows what is going on. But she doesn't know what she doesn't know and worse is failing to even CONSIDER that she doesn't know all the relevant facts.

So far. Roy, Talky Man, may have a go with his brand of The Truth as We Know It and perhaps penetrate her biases. We'll see.

I'm not saying it isn't on brand. Just that it's a bit sad to see the last surviving member of the Order of the Scribble about to ruin everything on impulse and incomplete information, with a side of seriously unpleasant motivation involving the deaths of so so many people because what comes out the other end might look better.

Serini's goal is "keep the world from being destroyed." The status quo isn't what she's worried about, as long as there is status something, at all. Nothing worthwhile comes without cost. What I like about all this is that her goal and Roy's are the same, but she isn't aware of that ... yet.

Not to mention that the entire premise of ruling the world using those Gates makes no sense and the only reason Xykon has been fooled is that he probably has no ranks in Knowledge Arcana.

While I hadn't thought of that, since he's a sorcerer and not a wizard, that estimate strikes me as a good one.

[DukeBG]

Could someone actually explain that part? It makes zero sense to me.

The ultimate power plan of Xykon is to commence a "ritual" on the gate. That plan is complete BS made up by Redcloak and actual outcome of the ritual is moving the gate to where the gods are.

Serini is one of the people who created the gates. She, if anyone, has to understand that there is not "ultimate world domination" to gain from the gate. She has to realize that The Evil Team's plans are complete boloney. She should be able to answer to the Heroes Team not what she answers in the page, but that defeating Xykon isn't required, because his plans are boloney, you cannot get any power from the gates.

[Ionathus]

Yes, it does matter. Xykon killed the entire Sapphire Guard. He did it easily. The paladin ghosts were something that could only be used then and there because it was the heart of their prepared defenses. That's not something that they could have taken and dropped on his head while he was in his own throne room.

Xykon already is immortal. And this isn't a JRPG. He's an epic-level D&D lich, and adventurers powerful enough to threaten him don't just pop out of nowhere. If he was just a level 10 sorcerer with a bit powerful nuke, then sure, some plucky adventurers might be able to get into his castle and kill him. But he's not. He literally laughed off Lirian's attempts to hurt him.

Sure, Xykon killed the entire Sapphire Guard easily, but he didn't BEAT them easily. That's like saying you easily won a final boss fight because you destroyed the first of their 2 (or 3, or more) health bars. The boss then explodes, and turns into a fiery angel or whatever, and you begin the second round of the boss fight. Xykon did not win the FIGHT. He killed them, but he was not prepared for everything a bunch of mortals had put in place to stop him. That the mortals had to become positive energy spirits to stop him does not change the fact that they still almost stopped him through their own actions and preparations.

Just because the Sapphire Guard Ghost-Martyrs had to stay in the Azure City throne room doesn't mean Xykon is invulnerable to every possible scenario as long as he stays in his Evil Fortress. If he completed the Ritual and it did what he thinks it'll do, eventually someone would still grow powerful enough and kill him.

This entire conversation is moot because Xykon is never going to get "control" over the Snarl, and nobody wants that to happen. But it's completely wrong to say that if he did, and the gods didn't blow up the world, that Xykon would rule the world forever as an immortal, invulnerable, unkillable, all-powerful demi-god. Things would be very bad for a lot of people, maybe even for a long time, but then someone would eventually gank him.

That doesn't change how important it is for the heroes to stop him (again, even in this weird hypothetical world where the Ritual does what Xykon wants). It doesn't mean Serini is doing the RIGHT thing by essentially clearing the way for Xykon to "win".

All it means is that no, Serini is not insane for thinking eventually Xykon would fall.

[hroþila]

Isn't someone trying to topple Xykon when he had control of a gate how this whole thing(OotS not the prequels) started in the first place? That doesn't seem like a good premise on which to base the security of the WHOLE FRICKING WORLD! :)

But Serini isn't saying "meh, the problem will sort itself out anyway", she's saying "while there's life there's hope". And that's always true, but especially in a world that literally works along narrative lines.

[CountDVB]

I am getting the feeling that Serini thinking that the Paladins broke their oath regarding checking up on one another, and she really underestimates Xykon’s pettiness if she thinks the monsters won’t suffer still under him.

Xykon is going through the motions because he has nothing else to go for. He’s a lich who’s only favorite things we’re coffee and hurting people. Dude changed since he lost the former.

[Riftwolf]

Which I still don't understand how he can research a spell and then ask Thor to be able to cast it.

Gods can pretty much warp reality however they want. Clerics have to research how to ask for a specific warping with very precise effects. Once the Cleric knows the full details, he can shorthand it to the God for later.

[gatemansgc]

well the order has to be better able to stop her than two paladins...

[KorvinStarmast]

Serini is one of the people who created the gates. She, if anyone, has to understand that there is not "ultimate world domination" to gain from the gate. She has to realize that The Evil Team's plans are complete boloney. She should be able to answer to the Heroes Team not what she answers in the page, but that defeating Xykon isn't required, because his plans are boloney, you cannot get any power from the gates.

I mentioned further up that characters in the story do not have access to all of the info that the readers do. So to the bold part: no, she doesn't have to understand that.

she really underestimates Xykon’s pettiness if she thinks the monsters won’t suffer still under him.

If you are suffering but alive, you are still alive and the world still exists. That's her focus.

Xykon is going through the motions because he has nothing else to go for. He’s a lich who’s only favorite things we’re coffee and hurting people. Dude changed since he lost the former.

Once again, the importance of coffee can't be overemphasized.

[ebarde]

I think Team Evil is at a certain disadvantage in that they have to fight a defensive war for weeks to do anything with the gate, securing it is the easiest part really. Not to mention that unlike Dorukan's I don't think they can just toss all their mooks and set-up their own traps and be done with it, and I bet Serini has enough backdoors and defenses to make setting up the ritual very difficult. Also, I wonder if Oona might actually be on Serini's side somehow? A bit of a wild guess, but the way her village is set-up in relation to the dungeon makes me wonder if Serini didn't strike some sort of agreement with them.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think Team Evil is at a certain disadvantage in that they have to fight a defensive war for weeks to do anything with the gate, securing it is the easiest part really. Not to mention that unlike Dorukan's I don't think they can just toss all their mooks and set-up their own traps and be done with it, and I bet Serini has enough backdoors and defenses to make setting up the ritual very difficult. Also, I wonder if Oona might actually be on Serini's side somehow? A bit of a wild guess, but I feel that the way her village is set-up in relation to the dungeon makes me wonder if Serini didn't strike some sort of agreement with them.

That's a decent guess, given her empathy statement in this strip.

[DukeBG]

I mentioned further up that characters in the story do not have access to all of the info that the readers do. So to the bold part: no, she doesn't have to understand that.

Well, I'm not referring to any info that the readers know. She's discussing on the page points like "Xykon <...> ruling the world", "villain calling the shots". That assumes that she believes that there is something like that for Xykon to get from the gate. Being one of the people who created the gate she has to understand that being impossible.

[dancrilis]

Which I still don't understand how he can research a spell and then ask Thor to be able to cast it.

It might be that the standard spells are effectively known:
Cleric: Thor give me a death ward spell.
Thor: Sure here you go, enjoy.

But that custom spells need much more explanation
Cleric: Thor give me 30% Death Ward, 30% Mass Fox’s Cunning - for the mass hold the Fox's Cunning elements related to intelligence, 20% Control Undead - merely seeking duration for that but the magic enterlinks with mass fox's cunning better then Death Ward, need 10% dispel magic also not sure why I need that that but the research has it, guess dismissable might be useful I guess, and round it out with 10% whatever you like just need some untainted juice.
Thor: ... what?

It is possible that when asking for a custom spell the magical breakdown of the spell needs to be very clear to be understood and that explanation is where the research comes into it, and that different clerics might research the same spell (and therefore how they request it) very differently.

I am getting the feeling that Serini thinking that the Paladins broke their oath regarding checking up on one another, and she really underestimates Xykon’s pettiness if she thinks the monsters won’t suffer still under him.

The hobgoblins did fine with him for an extended period of time.

[Gift Jeraff]

I don't see how Serini could prevent the Order from pursuing Xykon with just an amnesia potion. She'll have to wipe a lot of memories and teleport them to the opposite side of the planet. Like back to when they thought Xykon was gone for good and before they learned about the Gates.

Maybe we are going to get a major memory wipe and that's why the Julia's communication with Roy was established earlier in the book.

[Ionathus]

The Snarl is canonically capable of ripping gods a new one due to being made of more quiddities than anything else in the multiverse, mortals aren't much better.

Of course we know that he's probably not going to end up being able to control it, but you seem to be underestimating what it can do more than a bit.

I'm not underestimating the power of The Snarl. But even if he controlled it, The Snarl would be much more dangerous to institutions and nations than it would be to a plucky band of adventurers. Assassinations still happen in the real world, to leaders whose countries possess world-ending weapons. That's how I see the hypothetical "controlled Snarl" as well: excellent at subjugating entire nations or even wiping out armies, but not really useful or precise enough to target individual creatures. And certainly not precise enough to give Xykon new defensive or regenerative powers. Maybe you see it differently.

Here's how I, personally see it: He's going on with it because there's the chance of him becoming the King of the World^TM and he gets his kicks grinding Redcloak down. Once he's sure that it won't work, he's going to blast Redcloak into a fine mist and then move on.

My thoughts exactly.

Could someone actually explain that part? It makes zero sense to me.

The ultimate power plan of Xykon is to commence a "ritual" on the gate. That plan is complete BS made up by Redcloak and actual outcome of the ritual is moving the gate to where the gods are.

Serini is one of the people who created the gates. She, if anyone, has to understand that there is not "ultimate world domination" to gain from the gate. She has to realize that The Evil Team's plans are complete boloney. She should be able to answer to the Heroes Team not what she answers in the page, but that defeating Xykon isn't required, because his plans are boloney, you cannot get any power from the gates.

I'm not too surprised that the non-magical Rogue of the group didn't pay enough attention to the inner workings of the Gates to understand what can and can't be done with them.

But Serini isn't saying "meh, the problem will sort itself out anyway", she's saying "while there's life there's hope". And that's always true, but especially in a world that literally works along narrative lines.

Exactly. Serini's philosophy is wildly different from the protagonists', but she's neither insane nor evil. She is doing everything she can to prevent the Worst Possible Outcome in her mind: the eradication of the world, via Snarl or Antsy Gods.

[masonwheeler]

She's acting on incomplete information.

True. But then again, so is everyone else, up to and including the Gods themselves.

Having said that... yeah, Serini is definitely nuts.

[Drascin]

Why would that be true?

I know that "going epic" sounds pretty, well, epic; but the reality is that there is no huge power boost between level 20 (not epic) and level 21 (epic); except the Epic Spellcasting feat.

Serini is level 21-ish; the Order is around level 15. Yes, that's a tough battle, but on the other hand it is seven against one. The order certainly has a decent chance in fighting her.

Also, she's an Epic Rogue.

Casters get a ton of mileage out of going Epic. Martials get +1d6 damage every three or four levels, if that.

If Serini really comes at the party for a fight, Serini gets annihilated. So I'm expecting she's going to be using all the traps and stuff she's set up all around the dungeon and not even remotely fighting if at all possible.

Which does provide plenty of time for the party to yell out a bunch of very reasonable points while the harrying is happening.

[hroþila]

Well, I'm not referring to any info that the readers know. She's discussing on the page points like "Xykon <...> ruling the world", "villain calling the shots". That assumes that she believes that there is something like that for Xykon to get from the gate. Being one of the people who created the gate she has to understand that being impossible.

She didn't personally have a hand in the creation of the gates, that was all Lirian and Dorukan. To illustrate, Shojo got his knowledge from Soon, and he theorized that there might be ways to control the Snarl through the gates, so it appears it is not that obvious.

Even Lirian and Dorukan might not have been able to rule out this hypothesis. No one has exact knowledge about the Snarl.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, and Spellcraft isn't a Rogue class skill, for what that's worth.

[DukeBG]

I'm not too surprised that the non-magical Rogue of the group didn't pay enough attention to the inner workings of the Gates to understand what can and can't be done with them.

Ok. That answers my question. She's just too dumb when it comes to the magics. Thanks.

[danielxcutter]

Ok. That answers my question. She's just too dumb when it comes to the magics. Thanks.

I'm not sure if "dumb" is the right word. "Uneducated", maybe. I doubt Dorukan would be as good at playing the paladins like a cheap kazoo, would he?

[DukeBG]

Yeah, you're right.

It's just that the whole "controlling the snarl through the gate" spiel – for me personally – has always (since it was introduced in the comic) been kinda shaky and hanging on a thin thread. But characters of different factions don't seem to be questioning it much and now that we got to someone "who was actually there" – still nothing.

[Edward15]

So, it looks like my "Seirini ruins the Order's Ambush" theory is more likely than I thought. Even worse, I'm betting she spirits the Order away just before they can attack Xykon but AFTER the trap is disabled, allowing Xykon and Redcloak to see a tunnel they didn't notice before. Whether she listens or not, I just know that Roy is really going to have a shouting match with Seirini. Just hope he can stop her before she force-feeds them all that amnesia potion.

Hey, wouldn't it be something if Durkon turned out to be Kraggor's grandson and that's what stills Seirini's hand?

[danielxcutter]

Also I love that her goggles look like old 3D glasses.

[dancrilis]

Hey, wouldn't it be something if Durkon turned out to be Kraggor's grandson and that's what stills Seirini's hand?

Less likely then the very unlikely 'Belkar is her nephew' theory - in my opinion anyway.

[Ghosty]

I disagree. She clearly knows someone else used his sword (O-Chul himself acknowledges she knows this), so that's not her reasoning. She knows the paladins chose to destroy the Gate. Whether or not they did is irrelevant. They chose to, they tried to, and someone else succeeded specifically because she saw their attempt to do it.

Serini doesn't care if they would be successful. She cares that they would make the choice to attempt it. She does not believe their protests that they would not. Simple as that.

Again, deciding to destroy the Gate when you have a spare, doesn't mean you're going to want to destroy the last one. She obviously doesn't believe the Paladins, and I gave two reasons why she might not upthread---oblivion beats Xykon running things, and the 'Good Guys' might bluff that they'd destroy it or blow it up inadvertently. But "You did it three times before," shouldn't be one of those reasons.

Why what Serini knows is important is, if she knows it was Miko who did it, she defeated the anti-scrying built into the Throne Room. If she did it there, she likely did it with all of the other Gates. Then, she would know that Elan blundered into destroying one. She knows Roy deliberately destroyed one.

And if she's this miffed at the Paladins for even thinking about destroying one in the past, how's she going to react when she meets the group that have already blown up two other Gates? Plus (unlike Team Evil, who have one Gate on their scorecard too.) who are one of the only groups to figure out what looks to be the big safeguard for her Gate: the hidden teleporters in every door?

If she doesn't know what really happened in Soon's Throne Room, she might not know what happened with the other Gates. She also might not know the Order's wizard is responsible for snuffing out the entire family (and then some) of the guy she used to have a crush on.