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2021-03-17, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
You didn't have any kind of a point there, and you don't have one here. Demonstrating to you that your example is not applicable is a relevant part of a debate. It's not cheating. You don't get points for making non-sequiturs and then acting exasperated when your opponent calls them out as such.
That's an interesting way of saying "I can't explain how this will actually work, but I like the idea so just shut up in go with it".
Actually, no, the amount of death and suffering that Xykon causes before he's defeated really, really does matter.
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2021-03-17, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
And I doubt the paladins could clear this up, because they left the fleet back in #672, and haven't had full briefings, just Sendings.
And if I recall correctly even Hinjo doesn't know about the Godsmoot, Hel's plans for the dwarves, or The Dark One's The Plan with Redcloak. So they couldn't enlighten Senji even if they wanted to.
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2021-03-17, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
You've got a point. We've talked a lot already about how Serini's acting on incomplete information, but definitely the biggest thing she doesn't know about is that her world isn't the second, it's the umpteenth squared. Because the Scribblers likely assumed their world was the one made immediately after the Gods got the Snarl under control again, they wouldn't know that the possibility of prematurely unmaking a world and starting over isn't just conjecture like their theories on villains trying to control the Snarl, but something that's happened countless times before. If you don't know that, the decision seems more drastic than it does to the people for whom it's routine.
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2021-03-17, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2020
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Her plan is for O-chul and Lien to ho back to Hinjo and tell him that neither Xykon nor the gate were at the given coordinates, so even if they keep looking for him they will look elsewhere. And if Xykon kept casting cloister, either his and his minions cannot be found by magical means.
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2021-03-17, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Maryland
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
"That's not right, that's not even wrong."
"This is not an idea to be tossed aside lightly, it should be thrown with great force."
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2021-03-17, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-03-17, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
You and I are in agreement on this. We have always been in agreement on this. I do not want to see Xykon win. The amount of death and suffering matters to me, and apparently to you as well. I want the heroes to stop him before he reaches the gate. I would want this regardless of our knowledge that The Ritual doesn't do what he wants it to.
But, separating my personal feelings from the situation, I'm saying that Serini's viewpoint (Xykon ruling the world for a period of time is preferable to eternal oblivion) is not logically flawed, even if I disagree with her philosophy and outlook. You seem to believe that Xykon would be unstoppable forever once he had control over the Snarl, despite no conversation or demonstration to that effect anywhere in the comic. If I've misinterpreted you, I apologize, but that point seems to be where we disagree.Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-03-17 at 02:14 PM.
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2021-03-17, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
My Homebrew: found here.
When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes
PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.
Drow avatar @ myself
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2021-03-17, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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- The Primus Imperium
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
This really is the key piece of information she's missing. Serini is going into this assuming that the gods are not a problem so long as the gates remain intact.
But she doesn't know that TDO's plan is to blackmail the other gods, and that the best way they have to prevent that is to destroy the world. The cycle Durkon has had revealed to him (something even more secret than the Snarl, the rifts or the gates) changes everything. For most of the gods, this world is yet another gravestone; tragic, perhaps, but not really a preventable one.Hate me if you want. But that's your issue to fix, not mine.
Primal ego vos, estis ex nihilo.
When Gods Go To War comes out March 8th
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2021-03-17, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Originally Posted by Serini Toormuck
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2021-03-17, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Hunter Valley, Australia
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Serini definitely doesn't know about The Plan or the gods plans. Things are going to get pretty interesting when/if Tarquin's party show up or if the IFCC pop up here as well and possibly come into conflict with her as well.
Last edited by Phexar; 2021-03-17 at 02:17 PM.
You were born an original. Don't die a copy.
-- John Mason.
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2021-03-17, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2020
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
For reasons that Redcloak boils down to "it was funnier keeping you alive to upset the Azure City folk and desecrate the city". That's just luck and Redcloak makes it clear that it's conditional.
I get the feeling that, much like the other Scribblers, her own faults or reliance on something will be her downfall, in the same way the other Scribblers had their vulnerabilities.
Serini is a rogue, one who reiles on guile and trickery to fight. With Team Evil, we have an epic sorcerer lich who believes in just pure power and is more than capable of blasting his way through to anything and everything and alongside him with a cleric who is notorious for being relatively pragmatic, efficient and intelligent (relative meaning as he long as he doesn't have to confront his personal failings). She'll also be in conflict with the Order of the Stick, a group of adventurers who's own quirks and eccentricities will likely defy her expectation, especially if she tries subconsciosly pigeon-holing them based on the Scribblers.Last edited by CountDVB; 2021-03-17 at 02:20 PM.
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2021-03-17, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2009
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
You're falling back here on the assumption that another Order of the Scribble will have the luxury of forming and then spending a lifetime of adventures getting to that level of power, that Xykon will have no defenses or allies of his own to even things out, that Xykon himself isn't going to get any stronger, etc.
Yes. The same Xykon who then killed Roy because he really wasn't all that serious about that, and who has repeatedly shown us that he
puts a lot more effort into precautions against actual threats than he lets on. Xykon isn't Goku. He doesn't mind an occasional challenge, but he isn't seeking out a genuine threat to his existence.
This is all fine in theory, but it has the wee problem that here we are, at the end game where the world might get blown up and/or everyone in the world's souls erased... and where are all of these people? The state of the world as we see it would indicate that high-level adventurers- and especially epic-level casters- are very, very rare, and usually involved in big important things like the Empire of Blood.
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2021-03-17, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Absolutely. And Xykon will probably rule for a thousand years before he gets bored and retires to his astral fortress. That’s going to be a lot of death and despair.
But compare “one thousand years of despair” to “everyone’s and everything totally and utterly obliterated forever” and Serini’s choice can be seen as not irrational.Last edited by Dion; 2021-03-17 at 02:33 PM.
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2021-03-17, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- In a castle under the sea
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Count me in the "this makes perfect sense from her point of view" camp. She sees a group of heroic wannabes who consistently destroy Gates rather than let them fall into the wrong hands, and a world which really needs its last Gate no matter whose hands it's in. Of course, we disagree, because:
- We trust that the Order is now strong enough to defeat Xykon.
- We know the world might be destroyed by the gods if Xykon holds the last Gate.
- We trust Lien and O-chul not to do the paladiny thing as much as 99% of Azure Guard paladins would.
And, you know, she makes a good point about the kobolds and orcs and trolls. I don't think letting a megalomaniacal dictator take over will make that problem any better, but I can sympathize with the "something has to change" attitude.
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2021-03-17, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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- Skyron, Andromeda
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Well, Serini does sure have a valid viewpoint here. Obviously there's a lot that she does not know about and I'm not a huge fan of her methods, but I can't argue that in theory it is better to risk Xykon's rule than the obliteration of everything.
What's more interesting to me than picking sides about how we feel about Serini is more how exactly does this conflict get resolved. I imagine that the next few strips aren't going to be "Serini subdues the Order and then Xykon finds the Gate" (nothing's impossible of course), so what will happen instead? Does the Order defeat Serini? Do they tell her about the Godsmoot and she decides to give them a chance? Does Serini convince the Order that she's right and they go home? Okay, maybe not that last one.
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2021-03-17, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Well, that is a new, unexpected flavor of Antagonistic Elan.
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2021-03-17, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2020
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
For some reason, if Serini brings that up, I wonder if Roy will make a call-back to what he told Xykon.
Because I doubt all those kobolds, orcs or trolls would benefit from the world become a more chaotic and screwed up place.
Heck, I imagine all the Orders would have their complaints, but a few come to mind:
- Haley would probably point out her experiences in Greysky City and a Rogue, noting her own miseries.
- Belkar would take the different approach; he knows he is or was a pretty callous individual and would use that. Eithe to guilt Serini, catch her off-guard or point out that it'd be a colossal mess, and not in a fun way.
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2021-03-17, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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- Alamogordo
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Well, I bet 10k epeen points that Serini doesn't stop to listen to Durkon about Redcloak and TDO's plans for the gate and why active defense is still necessary...
Also, Lien's comments seem to make it clear that the Order has NOT explained the Godsmoot proceedings and how much more is at stake now. Which honestly, it seems shortsighted to not have done so. I feel like at least Hinjo should be informed, and I feel like he wouldn't have left O-Chul and Lien in the dark either.Characters I've enjoyed playing for more than four sessions:
Falgar the Swiftblade
Revain Sumeth, Whip Fighter Extraordinaire
Malvin Firel, Cleric of Corellon, Destroyer of Undeath
Vongur Dorent, Primeval Champion of Poverty
In defense of the Vow of Poverty
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2021-03-17, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2020
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
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2021-03-17, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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2021-03-17, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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2021-03-17, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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2021-03-17, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
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2021-03-17, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2021
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- In my room
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
If that was the case, then there would be a stronger argument for destroying Girard or Soon's gate over letting Xykon take it. If Xykon takes it, the world gets destroyed. If the gate gets destroyed, there's always another one.
Clarification: This does not apply to the last gate, obviously, but it does explain destroying the previous gates.Last edited by ziproot; 2021-03-17 at 03:06 PM.
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2021-03-17, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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2021-03-17, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
Honestly, I'm really hating Serini with each new page here. This is a credit to Rich I guess making a character feel real despite acting so insufferably infuriating.
Everyone has made compelling cases as to why what she's doing makes sense based on what she knows. But even on the logic of letting an evil overlord take over instead of letting reality come undone, it comes across as evil at worst or just plain apathetic/neutral at best. She is doing things on her own, thinks she knows best, and will probably just make things worse, just like her fellow Order fo the Scribble teammates. And as we've seen time and time again in TOotS, that hubris always comes to bite the ass down HARD.
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2021-03-17, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
She's insane.
She thinks she can erase the memories and destroy every record ON THE PLANET of the heroes' quest? The Order of the Stick have left a lot in their wake.
And she doesn't have the full picture. Since the gods are hovering over the panic button as it is with Thor promising that they can STILL reach a compromise with the Dark One being the only thing that's holding them back!
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2021-03-17, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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2021-03-17, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Washington D.C.
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Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread
And, again, Serini disagrees. If you don't know about the Godsmoot (as Serini doesn't), then you have four holes in a prison holding in a world-killing abomination. Any holes in that prison might be unacceptable to Serini, much less a fifth hole. More holes in the prison mean more likelihood for the Snarl to get out. Serini doesn't know that the gods will unmske the world if this Gate goes, she thinks it's just a fifth hole. You know that blowing thos last gate is a non-option but she doesn't, so she doesn't trust them to not do it.
What we know is not necessarily what Serini knows. You correctly point out the paladins will 100% guaranteed not blow ghid Gate. Serini correctly points out she has no reason to think that.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2