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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    This is pretty much a parallel debate to the one we had on this thread. You asserted that X is impossible, and then I put forward an example where X happens, and then you said "that's not relevant." Except it is.
    You didn't have any kind of a point there, and you don't have one here. Demonstrating to you that your example is not applicable is a relevant part of a debate. It's not cheating. You don't get points for making non-sequiturs and then acting exasperated when your opponent calls them out as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    You're fixating on details and minutiae but the big picture is what's important.
    That's an interesting way of saying "I can't explain how this will actually work, but I like the idea so just shut up in go with it".

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    It doesn't matter if that defeat takes a long time, or comes after a reshaping of the world,
    Actually, no, the amount of death and suffering that Xykon causes before he's defeated really, really does matter.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Interesting... Serini believes *Xykon* is the main threat, not Redcloak, and doesn't say anything about the Dark One's plot or the Gods in general. Once again, characters acting on incomplete information: I love it.
    And I doubt the paladins could clear this up, because they left the fleet back in #672, and haven't had full briefings, just Sendings.

    And if I recall correctly even Hinjo doesn't know about the Godsmoot, Hel's plans for the dwarves, or The Dark One's The Plan with Redcloak. So they couldn't enlighten Senji even if they wanted to.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Serini believes the existential threat to the gates comes from someone destroying them to prevent them from falling into Xykons hands.

    And she’s 100% absolutely and totally correct.

    That really is what is going to happen. She’s figured it out. The gates (and the rest of the world) really will be destroyed to prevent Xykon and Redcloak from taking control and performing their ritual.

    What she doesn’t know - the missing piece of information - is she doesn’t know WHO is going to destroy the gates. She thinks it’s paladins or adventurers or whatever. She’s wrong. It’s all of the gods, working together, who are going to do it.

    And she’s not going to keep even one god from destroying it with her amnesia potion, much less all the gods working together.
    You've got a point. We've talked a lot already about how Serini's acting on incomplete information, but definitely the biggest thing she doesn't know about is that her world isn't the second, it's the umpteenth squared. Because the Scribblers likely assumed their world was the one made immediately after the Gods got the Snarl under control again, they wouldn't know that the possibility of prematurely unmaking a world and starting over isn't just conjecture like their theories on villains trying to control the Snarl, but something that's happened countless times before. If you don't know that, the decision seems more drastic than it does to the people for whom it's routine.

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cazero View Post
    I'm not sure what Serini is hoping to accomplish with her amnesia potion. Eventualy, the paladins and the Order are going to notice that Xykon isn't dead (deader, dead-ish, you got the point) and come back for more.
    Except this time they'll be in an even bigger rush prone to mishaps. Like breaking a gate.
    Her plan is for O-chul and Lien to ho back to Hinjo and tell him that neither Xykon nor the gate were at the given coordinates, so even if they keep looking for him they will look elsewhere. And if Xykon kept casting cloister, either his and his minions cannot be found by magical means.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HalfTangible View Post
    ...Xykon's the Big Ham. He's evil because it's fun, and part of that fun is, occasionally, having a great hero rise to oppose you... ...The big climactic showdown at the end would, in Xykon's eyes, be entirely worth letting him go.
    I agree with these sentiments, and sometimes wonder if Xykon is distantly related to Elan/Nale/Tarquin.
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    confused Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I wonder what her goggles are for...

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorSarda View Post
    True sight?
    Well, one's red, the other's blue, so True Sight with enhanced 3D?


  7. - Top - End - #217
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSquirrel View Post
    Actually, no, the amount of death and suffering that Xykon causes before he's defeated really, really does matter.
    You and I are in agreement on this. We have always been in agreement on this. I do not want to see Xykon win. The amount of death and suffering matters to me, and apparently to you as well. I want the heroes to stop him before he reaches the gate. I would want this regardless of our knowledge that The Ritual doesn't do what he wants it to.

    But, separating my personal feelings from the situation, I'm saying that Serini's viewpoint (Xykon ruling the world for a period of time is preferable to eternal oblivion) is not logically flawed, even if I disagree with her philosophy and outlook. You seem to believe that Xykon would be unstoppable forever once he had control over the Snarl, despite no conversation or demonstration to that effect anywhere in the comic. If I've misinterpreted you, I apologize, but that point seems to be where we disagree.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-03-17 at 02:14 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Well, it's going to be an intersting ambush, isn't it.



    I wonder what her goggles are for...
    Pre-James-Cameron 3d goggles in DnD is a shorthand for Goggles of True Seeing
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Serini believes the existential threat to the gates comes from someone destroying them to prevent them from falling into Xykons hands.

    And she’s 100% absolutely and totally correct. Everyone saying “the last gate won’t be destroyed because it’s the last one” is wrong.

    Because that really is what is going to happen. She’s figured it out correctly. The gates (and the rest of the world) really will be destroyed to prevent Xykon and Redcloak from taking control and performing their ritual.

    What she doesn’t know - the missing piece of information - is she doesn’t know WHO is going to destroy the gates. She thinks it’s paladins or adventurers or whatever. She’s wrong about who.

    All of the gods, working together, are planning to destroy the gate (and the rest of the world along with it) to prevent Xykon from taking control.

    And she’s not going to prevent that with her amnesia potions.
    This really is the key piece of information she's missing. Serini is going into this assuming that the gods are not a problem so long as the gates remain intact.

    But she doesn't know that TDO's plan is to blackmail the other gods, and that the best way they have to prevent that is to destroy the world. The cycle Durkon has had revealed to him (something even more secret than the Snarl, the rifts or the gates) changes everything. For most of the gods, this world is yet another gravestone; tragic, perhaps, but not really a preventable one.
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  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Serini Toormuck
    And you can't keep knocking over the game board whenever your side starts losing!
    Ahh, now that was a powerful line.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Serini definitely doesn't know about The Plan or the gods plans. Things are going to get pretty interesting when/if Tarquin's party show up or if the IFCC pop up here as well and possibly come into conflict with her as well.
    Last edited by Phexar; 2021-03-17 at 02:17 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    The hobgoblins did fine with him for an extended period of time.
    For reasons that Redcloak boils down to "it was funnier keeping you alive to upset the Azure City folk and desecrate the city". That's just luck and Redcloak makes it clear that it's conditional.

    I get the feeling that, much like the other Scribblers, her own faults or reliance on something will be her downfall, in the same way the other Scribblers had their vulnerabilities.

    Serini is a rogue, one who reiles on guile and trickery to fight. With Team Evil, we have an epic sorcerer lich who believes in just pure power and is more than capable of blasting his way through to anything and everything and alongside him with a cleric who is notorious for being relatively pragmatic, efficient and intelligent (relative meaning as he long as he doesn't have to confront his personal failings). She'll also be in conflict with the Order of the Stick, a group of adventurers who's own quirks and eccentricities will likely defy her expectation, especially if she tries subconsciosly pigeon-holing them based on the Scribblers.
    Last edited by CountDVB; 2021-03-17 at 02:20 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Theshipening View Post
    3-3 on 1v1, given his fight against Dorukan was kinda close, if Lirian had been there for some support magic, or Soon for a good ol’ SMITE, etc..., they’d have taken him down, and V not only already used some spells and lost the most powerful of the splices, they were still shackled to their mid-level ass, and would’ve fared much better against Xykon if still in their own high-level bodies (and with some sweet action economy).
    You're falling back here on the assumption that another Order of the Scribble will have the luxury of forming and then spending a lifetime of adventures getting to that level of power, that Xykon will have no defenses or allies of his own to even things out, that Xykon himself isn't going to get any stronger, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theshipening View Post
    You mean, the same Xykon who told Roy to go level up some more before fighting him because otherwise the fight isn’t fun ?
    Yes. The same Xykon who then killed Roy because he really wasn't all that serious about that, and who has repeatedly shown us that he
    puts a lot more effort into precautions against actual threats than he lets on. Xykon isn't Goku. He doesn't mind an occasional challenge, but he isn't seeking out a genuine threat to his existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theshipening View Post
    Plus, not all great deeds bring great fame (I doubt the Scribblers were well-known, even in life), and even pretty potent forces like Azure City and Dorukan couldn’t track down a god-forsaken lich after he destroyed a Gate, and we all know how Xykon feels about Divination. Also, other planes exist (likely Durkon’s friends were extraplanar, and Ganonron’s whole deal was conquering ‘a thousand planes’, so clearly OotS’s planet isn’t the only inhabited place), and Xykon can’t monitor them all.
    This is all fine in theory, but it has the wee problem that here we are, at the end game where the world might get blown up and/or everyone in the world's souls erased... and where are all of these people? The state of the world as we see it would indicate that high-level adventurers- and especially epic-level casters- are very, very rare, and usually involved in big important things like the Empire of Blood.

  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BloodSquirrel View Post
    Actually, no, the amount of death and suffering that Xykon causes before he's defeated really, really does matter.
    Absolutely. And Xykon will probably rule for a thousand years before he gets bored and retires to his astral fortress. That’s going to be a lot of death and despair.

    But compare “one thousand years of despair” to “everyone’s and everything totally and utterly obliterated forever” and Serini’s choice can be seen as not irrational.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-03-17 at 02:33 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ddn2004 View Post
    That's a shocker. She's gone insane.
    Count me in the "this makes perfect sense from her point of view" camp. She sees a group of heroic wannabes who consistently destroy Gates rather than let them fall into the wrong hands, and a world which really needs its last Gate no matter whose hands it's in. Of course, we disagree, because:
    1. We trust that the Order is now strong enough to defeat Xykon.
    2. We know the world might be destroyed by the gods if Xykon holds the last Gate.
    3. We trust Lien and O-chul not to do the paladiny thing as much as 99% of Azure Guard paladins would.


    And, you know, she makes a good point about the kobolds and orcs and trolls. I don't think letting a megalomaniacal dictator take over will make that problem any better, but I can sympathize with the "something has to change" attitude.
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    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
    Quotes, more

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Well, Serini does sure have a valid viewpoint here. Obviously there's a lot that she does not know about and I'm not a huge fan of her methods, but I can't argue that in theory it is better to risk Xykon's rule than the obliteration of everything.

    What's more interesting to me than picking sides about how we feel about Serini is more how exactly does this conflict get resolved. I imagine that the next few strips aren't going to be "Serini subdues the Order and then Xykon finds the Gate" (nothing's impossible of course), so what will happen instead? Does the Order defeat Serini? Do they tell her about the Godsmoot and she decides to give them a chance? Does Serini convince the Order that she's right and they go home? Okay, maybe not that last one.


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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Well, that is a new, unexpected flavor of Antagonistic Elan.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Absolutely. And Xykon will probably rule for a thousand years before he gets bored and goes to his astral fortress. That’s going to be a lot of death and despair.

    But compare “one thousand years of despair” to “everyone’s and everything totally and utterly destroyed forever” and Serini’s choice can be seen as rational.
    For some reason, if Serini brings that up, I wonder if Roy will make a call-back to what he told Xykon.

    Because I doubt all those kobolds, orcs or trolls would benefit from the world become a more chaotic and screwed up place.

    Heck, I imagine all the Orders would have their complaints, but a few come to mind:

    - Haley would probably point out her experiences in Greysky City and a Rogue, noting her own miseries.
    - Belkar would take the different approach; he knows he is or was a pretty callous individual and would use that. Eithe to guilt Serini, catch her off-guard or point out that it'd be a colossal mess, and not in a fun way.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Well, I bet 10k epeen points that Serini doesn't stop to listen to Durkon about Redcloak and TDO's plans for the gate and why active defense is still necessary...

    Also, Lien's comments seem to make it clear that the Order has NOT explained the Godsmoot proceedings and how much more is at stake now. Which honestly, it seems shortsighted to not have done so. I feel like at least Hinjo should be informed, and I feel like he wouldn't have left O-Chul and Lien in the dark either.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    Well, I bet 10k epeen points that Serini doesn't stop to listen to Durkon about Redcloak and TDO's plans for the gate and why active defense is still necessary...

    Also, Lien's comments seem to make it clear that the Order has NOT explained the Godsmoot proceedings and how much more is at stake now. Which honestly, it seems shortsighted to not have done so. I feel like at least Hinjo should be informed, and I feel like he wouldn't have left O-Chul and Lien in the dark either.
    Maybe they didn't have time or opportunity to do so. They figured they could've met up with the Paladins no problem and explained everything that had happened... but nope, things got in the way.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    Because I doubt all those kobolds, orcs or trolls would benefit from the world become a more chaotic and screwed up place.
    Sure, but doubt they would benefit from dying as the world is destroyed by the snarl, either.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    We know the world might be destroyed by the gods if Xykon holds the last Gate.
    Serini likely knows or imagines that the gods might well destroy the world themselves if the situation deteriorates enough. Shojo said the same thing to the Order.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hroþila View Post
    Serini likely knows or imagines that the gods might well destroy the world themselves if the situation deteriorates enough. Shojo said the same thing to the Order.
    She seems to be thinking about that only in the event of the Snarl escaping, since she views a victory by Team Evil as averting that possibility.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward15 View Post
    So, it looks like my "Seirini ruins the Order's Ambush" theory is more likely than I thought. Even worse, I'm betting she spirits the Order away just before they can attack Xykon but AFTER the trap is disabled, allowing Xykon and Redcloak to see a tunnel they didn't notice before. Whether she listens or not, I just know that Roy is really going to have a shouting match with Seirini. Just hope he can stop her before she force-feeds them all that amnesia potion.

    Hey, wouldn't it be something if Durkon turned out to be Kraggor's grandson and that's what stills Seirini's hand?
    Yeah, her amnesia potion [mind-effecting] will work great on the Undead. Oh, wait, maybe she can use another dart with CON-draining poison.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hroþila View Post
    Serini likely knows or imagines that the gods might well destroy the world themselves if the situation deteriorates enough. Shojo said the same thing to the Order.
    If that was the case, then there would be a stronger argument for destroying Girard or Soon's gate over letting Xykon take it. If Xykon takes it, the world gets destroyed. If the gate gets destroyed, there's always another one.

    Clarification: This does not apply to the last gate, obviously, but it does explain destroying the previous gates.
    Last edited by ziproot; 2021-03-17 at 03:06 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ziproot View Post
    If the gate gets destroyed, there's always another one.
    That’s how the gods feel!

    I mean, another gate won’t be on this world. This world will be destroyed. But this isn’t the last gate. There will always be more prisons for the snarl.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-03-17 at 03:15 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Honestly, I'm really hating Serini with each new page here. This is a credit to Rich I guess making a character feel real despite acting so insufferably infuriating.

    Everyone has made compelling cases as to why what she's doing makes sense based on what she knows. But even on the logic of letting an evil overlord take over instead of letting reality come undone, it comes across as evil at worst or just plain apathetic/neutral at best. She is doing things on her own, thinks she knows best, and will probably just make things worse, just like her fellow Order fo the Scribble teammates. And as we've seen time and time again in TOotS, that hubris always comes to bite the ass down HARD.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    She's insane.
    She thinks she can erase the memories and destroy every record ON THE PLANET of the heroes' quest? The Order of the Stick have left a lot in their wake.

    And she doesn't have the full picture. Since the gods are hovering over the panic button as it is with Thor promising that they can STILL reach a compromise with the Dark One being the only thing that's holding them back!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    But that custom spells need much more explanation
    Cleric: Thor give me 30% Death Ward, 30% Mass Fox’s Cunning - for the mass hold the Fox's Cunning elements related to intelligence, 20% Control Undead - merely seeking duration for that but the magic enterlinks with mass fox's cunning better then Death Ward, need 10% dispel magic also not sure why I need that that but the research has it, guess dismissable might be useful I guess, and round it out with 10% whatever you like just need some untainted juice.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    Again, deciding to destroy the Gate when you have a spare, doesn't mean you're going to want to destroy the last one.
    And, again, Serini disagrees. If you don't know about the Godsmoot (as Serini doesn't), then you have four holes in a prison holding in a world-killing abomination. Any holes in that prison might be unacceptable to Serini, much less a fifth hole. More holes in the prison mean more likelihood for the Snarl to get out. Serini doesn't know that the gods will unmske the world if this Gate goes, she thinks it's just a fifth hole. You know that blowing thos last gate is a non-option but she doesn't, so she doesn't trust them to not do it.

    What we know is not necessarily what Serini knows. You correctly point out the paladins will 100% guaranteed not blow ghid Gate. Serini correctly points out she has no reason to think that.
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