Mechanics: OOTS now vs Team Evil OR OOTS vs Serini

[terenes]

Hi.

I'm not good at Epic Levels Mechanics so I have a question:

How do you think both fights would go as per D&D rules?
OOTS seems to be battleready and very optimized against casters, but also have 2 main and 2 secondary casters, true seeing, cure poison etc. I don't see how Serini could take them right now.
They can also pour enough damage from short distance to disable Xykon quickly.

What do you think?

[dancrilis]

Hi.

I'm not good at Epic Levels Mechanics so I have a question:

How do you think both fights would go as per D&D rules?
OOTS seems to be battleready and very optimized against casters, but also have 2 main and 2 secondary casters, true seeing, cure poison etc. I don't see how Serini could take them right now.
They can also pour enough damage from short distance to disable Xykon quickly.

What do you think?

Mechanically?
This depends on how the fight starts, combatant awareness etc

Assuming a 'fair' fight (all combatants aware of each other).
Xykon vs OOTS: I would imagine in general that 'the Xykon player' uses 'box' spells to box the Orders members and then murders them with ease.
Serini vs OOTS: Serine shows herself and puts up a solid initial showing fight but ultimately loses badly - 'fair' fights are not a rogues friend.

Assuming an unfair fight (Xykon is caught unaware in the first, the Order is caught unaware in the second):
Xykon vs OOTS: Xykon is caught unaware takes some damage and teleports out if it gets rough (via contingency) - returns when he is fully healed (possibly almost immediately if he gets healed as Gobbotopia) and wipes them out.
Serini vs OOTS: Serini uses her wealth to have items (scrolls of symbol of stunning, power word stun, incapaciating poisons, etc) that allow her to incapacitate the order and make healthy use of high ranks in move silently and hide to get them off before the order can figure out how to respond.

[Morty]

Any battle in which Serini threatens the Order is not going to have much to do with the 3E D&D rules. That, or Serini is going to do something to stack the odds severely in her favor. Quite possibly both.

[The Pilgrim]

From the point of view of game mechanics, Serini is an epic-level rogue fighting a band of high level adventurers which include one good fighter and two primary spellcasters. So she is totally toast. She can slain the wizard with a sneak attack. Perhaps she can incapacitate the cleric too. But the fighter will toast her with the help of the other three party members and the henchmanwoman.

[terenes]

Mechanically?

Assuming an unfair fight (Xykon is caught unaware in the first, the Order is caught unaware in the second):
Xykon vs OOTS: Xykon is caught unaware takes some damage and teleports out if it gets rough (via contingency) - returns when he is fully healed (possibly almost immediately if he gets healed as Gobbotopia) and wipes them out.

Well, Xykon didn't use contingency in comic at all. It seems he doesn't have one.
And it seems you can't use teleport inside this dungeon.

[dancrilis]

Well, Xykon didn't use contingency in comic at all. It seems he doesn't have one.

He is listed as having it here (panel 11), do you have any reason to suspect that O-Chul had filled it in in error (or was just lying about it).

And it seems you can't use teleport inside this dungeon.

One can't ghostform through it due to the multi-dimensional stone (panel 3), unless you are aware of something that I am not aware of nothing mentions not being able to teleport from it (and while unknown it seems likely that Serini might have teleported while within it/or into it here panel 13)

[terenes]

I stand corrected.

[DavidBV]

Serini vs OOtS: she wipes the dungeon floor with their sorry, unprepared asses, until she learns about the Godsmoot.

[Dr.Zero]

Yes, it depends by a lot of factors but
If X team was what he (and Serini) think it is actually - so X, RC, MitD and Oona - the OOTS would be very likely destroyed, even if they managed to ambush X.

Between magic users often the fights are some kind of "first strike", like the first able to dispel enemy's protections and buffs ogets the upper hand.
But X has a lot of his own buff in his own build: immunities to this and that and DR, for example.

And about the others, let's not forget that MitD alone is a monster who has so much DR that he completely ignored both Miko's and Belkar's attacks.
Granted, probably Roy's and D's weapons being magic will overcome it, but still.
And Oona herself seems fairly competent and high level.

But since we know that X at the right time will be probably alone, that Roy has that Improved-Mage-Slayer feat that X is unaware of, the OOTS has way better chances than anyone thinks.

Regarding Serini, a lot depends on the way she wants to fight: technically I suppose that the fact she doesn't want to kill the OOTS would be a disadvantage, but If her sleep poison can ko an enemy in a single round like she did with the Paladins, than that point is moot. If he starts attacking with greater invisibility activated (which I think she has, since she was invisbile to us after attacking the paladins) and a fly for good measure just to be sure that the fighters can't trip on her by accident, and goes for the casters first, I think she should easily overcome the order. Even more if she has a better knowledge of the traps (if any) existing in her own dungeon.
On the other hand the OOTS has already casted some of their buff spells, and while some will be useless (like Death Ward), some like stoneskin and heroism will be of some help. So they aren't going to get completely unprotected, like Serini probably thinks would happen.

[brian 333]

Serini is smart and she knows who she is going to fight. You don't start a fight you don't believe you can win.

The OotS is desperate and TE will never be as magically depleted as when they come out of the dungeon. OotS has a much better chance in this particular situation because primary casters have to use up their spells in a dungeon crawl, and this will be at least TE's second one of the day. At least some of their good combat spells will be used up.

[tomaO2]

Any chance Roy's mage killer feat can be used against wand spells, or is this a spellcaster attack only?

[Dr.Zero]

Any chance Roy's mage killer feat can be used against wand spells, or is this a spellcaster attack only?

Since we don't know how much Rich improved it, this question cannot be answered.

Mage slayer feat per se, though, is limited to stop casters.
Even more, using wands is a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity (basically is like attacking with a sword, only, you know, you wave your wand instead of swinging your sword).

So the answers should be "no chance" and "spellcaster attack only". Keyword: should.

[KorvinStarmast]

Any chance Roy's mage killer feat can be used against wand spells, or is this a spellcaster attack only?

I think it's called Spell Splinter and it disrupts the spell being cast (though it also appears to do damage)

[Alexandrite]

Just going by rules, Serini shouldn't stand a chance against the order. She'd likely be able to incapacitate some of them, but I don't think there's much she could do to put Roy or Durkon down. if V has cast Stoneskin before the ambush then that puts her in an even worse spot.


Team Evil is more complicated to call, but I feel like Xykon going by rules and not plot might be way too large scale of a threat for them.

[Dr.Zero]

Just going by rules, Serini shouldn't stand a chance against the order. She'd likely be able to incapacitate some of them, but I don't think there's much she could do to put Roy or Durkon down. if V has cast Stoneskin before the ambush then that puts her in an even worse spot.

Actually, attacking while covered by a great invisibilty spell effect (as she appared to do with the paladins) should make her able to dispatch V in a single shot, with that sleep poison.
Stoneskin is a great spell, but it blocks only the first 10 points of every single weapon damage, which means that Serini should easily be able to cut through it enough to poison V. And V has abysmal Fort saves. If a single shot worked against two paladins, I have no doubt it can work for V (and most of the others).
If Serini adds a fly spell, Roy and B are totally out of the game.

The true problem is D, who has sky high fort save (and a specific racial +2 against poison) and can cast greater dispel magic (if prepared).
And secondary Minrah who has a little less high fort save than D (but still it must be quite high and still has the +2 against poison) and can cast dispel magic (if prepared)

On the other hand, showing that V has cast stoneskin indeed seems a Checkov's gun... and we have Haley's unknown wands which can be anything
On the other other hand Serini probably doesn't know about H's wands and the fact they casted a lot of buffs already, but does know she is going to face two dwarfs cleric, so is not an unreasonable assumption that she should have some countermeasures for them. (I mean, if she tries to poison them and she fails, I'd be a bit surprised about her surprise).

(Serini is, in fact, using a scry and fry strategy, and that is usually a good starting point.)

[Mike Havran]

I think Serini has means to let some of the monsters loose into any portion of the dungeon. If she does that the Order is in trouble since they will be distracted and Serini will sneak them from behind Greater invisibility. V is immune to sleep so she will probably use some other, nastier poison.

[Riftwolf]

My guess? The Order have bypassed one trap to stand in another. All Serini has to do is disable the door from their side, and they're left with nowhere to go but inwards. If inwards is a dead end too, they're screwed into either surrendering quietly or staying down there to stew.

[King of Nowhere]

I vote for oots on all fights due to action economy. I've run a lot of encounters with a strong boss and perhaps a few other high level minions against a party of 6 - a situation which is pretty close to xykon, redcloak and oona vs the order - and the outcome is, action economy wins. now, the mitd may change that, but we have no real indication of its actual capacity and especially whether he's actually going to fight and on which side, so i'm leaving him aside.
serini is in an even worse position. she can do a lot in the surprise round, and that's going to be the only round she'll get. she may be able to teleport to safety after dropping a party member, though, in which case she could come back and finish the job

however, each fight is very dependent on a lot of circumstantial factors, mostly preparation and surprise. so rich can easily steer each fight in the direction of his choice without it looking contrived.

[KorvinStarmast]

Serini vs OOtS: she wipes the dungeon floor with their sorry, unprepared asses, until she learns about the Godsmoot.

Surprise is her only tactical friend. The unknown is "what kind of fluid is she tipping her darts with?" That's where her edge lies. But action economy of 1 v 6 is a non-trivial matter.

Serini should easily be able to cut through it enough to poison V

But V, being an elf, can't be put to sleep with magic ... I am not sure if poison overrides this.
A paralyze poison might be a better choice for V, per the initial battle with Xykon. (Extract of Ghast, or whatever else)

... and we have Haley's unknown wands which can be anything

Haley is (1) a rogue and (2) smart. I think her wands have a good chance of being very useful here.

I vote for oots on all fights due to action economy. {snip}
however, each fight is very dependent on a lot of circumstantial factors, mostly preparation and surprise. so rich can easily steer each fight in the direction of his choice without it looking contrived.

This.

[TRH]

Actually, attacking while covered by a great invisibilty spell effect (as she appared to do with the paladins) should make her able to dispatch V in a single shot, with that sleep poison.
Stoneskin is a great spell, but it blocks only the first 10 points of every single weapon damage, which means that Serini should easily be able to cut through it enough to poison V. And V has abysmal Fort saves. If a single shot worked against two paladins, I have no doubt it can work for V (and most of the others).
If Serini adds a fly spell, Roy and B are totally out of the game.

Aren't elves immune to magical sleep effects? Most poisons are problematic, but this particular one seems like it would actually be useless.

[Shadowknight12]

Aren't elves immune to magical sleep effects? Most poisons are problematic, but this particular one seems like it would actually be useless.

A sleeping poison would not count as a magical sleep effect.

[Squire Doodad]

I vote for oots on all fights due to action economy. I've run a lot of encounters with a strong boss and perhaps a few other high level minions against a party of 6 - a situation which is pretty close to xykon, redcloak and oona vs the order - and the outcome is, action economy wins. now, the mitd may change that, but we have no real indication of its actual capacity and especially whether he's actually going to fight and on which side, so i'm leaving him aside.
serini is in an even worse position. she can do a lot in the surprise round, and that's going to be the only round she'll get. she may be able to teleport to safety after dropping a party member, though, in which case she could come back and finish the job

however, each fight is very dependent on a lot of circumstantial factors, mostly preparation and surprise. so rich can easily steer each fight in the direction of his choice without it looking contrived.

Despite action economy, the Order is a high level crew of mostly 12-16s...going up against an Epic Lich with immunities to like a third of the damage types in the game, PLUS his near-Epic Cleric "minion" and a high level Beastmaster.
I'd argue Redcloak+Oona+Tsukiko being "level 19 with a pair of late teens" would be a fight firmly in favor of the Order.
I think estimations were that Xykon is in his mid 20s, maybe even a level more than we think. Redcloak seems to be knocking on Epic's door. Oona is the least notable, but enough to be a threat to take into account.

Xykon alone or the main cast of Team Evil but Xykon would be fair game or even easy for the full Order. The current setup with Team Evil's trio? Much harder, so Xykon not having all his spell slots (having done two dungeon crawls and dropped a few on Durkon earlier) makes it a closer match.

Now, if we assume MitD and/or Serini fights alongside the Order, then it's fair game. Strong backup from an Epic Rogue on top of the Order's kit means the fleshier foes can be dealt with, so Team Evil will probably lose.
Similarly, a scenario in which you have the Order, MitD (assuming he's a Protean or a creature of similar power), and O-Chul and Lien all fighting together, there's enough power to put Team Evil to rest...probably.

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As for Serini vs the Order, that's when the whole action economy thing comes into play, and hard. Team Evil is an endboss with a campaign boss helping it, while Serini is an Epic Rogue but all by herself, mostly.
Assuming Serini summons some backup, she COULD incapacitate some party members, and she might be able to warp in and out to slowly take everyone down, but for all intents and purposes she couldn't face the party in a fair fight. After all, Rogues are meant to be the flankers, not the flankees, and there's no replacement for a quartet of adventurers to help you.
She's either going to come in after having tilted the odds in her favor hard (coming in with elementals from scrolls, maybe some minor artifacts giving her amazing rogue-powers, and so on), or this is going to not end with the party tied up. Which probably won't happen regardless. Though it'd be funny!

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I haven't thought about Solo Serini or Serini+"Beaker" vs Team Evil at all, so I can't say much on that. Also depends on whether Beaker is a summoned monster or an actual character.

[Dr.Zero]

A sleeping poison would not count as a magical sleep effect.

Yes, this.
There have always been a debate about this point, that can be found easily searching "sleep poisons vs elf" or something alike, but they should generally work, according to one of the big guys https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...63358205255680

[King of Nowhere]

Despite action economy, the Order is a high level crew of mostly 12-16s...going up against an Epic Lich with immunities to like a third of the damage types in the game, PLUS his near-Epic Cleric "minion" and a high level Beastmaster.
I'd argue Redcloak+Oona+Tsukiko being "level 19 with a pair of late teens" would be a fight firmly in favor of the Order.

you are underestimating the oots levels and overestimating redcloak. according to the class and level geekery, roy is at least level 14, possibly higher. belkar is at least level 15, again, possibly higher. durkon is 13+, for having lost levels to resurrection. elan is 14+, haley is 16, V is 16. there is nobody level 12 in the order, and even the most conservative estimates would put only one of them at 13. plus minrah is at least level 10 and capable of dealing damage to redcloak, so she's not to be discounted.

on the other hand, redcloak learned 9th level spells only a relatively short time ago. there's no real reason to believe him to be higher than 17.

[arimareiji]

you are underestimating the oots levels and overestimating redcloak. according to the class and level geekery, roy is at least level 14, possibly higher. belkar is at least level 15, again, possibly higher. durkon is 13+, for having lost levels to resurrection. elan is 14+, haley is 16, V is 16. there is nobody level 12 in the order, and even the most conservative estimates would put only one of them at 13. plus minrah is at least level 10 and capable of dealing damage to redcloak, so she's not to be discounted.

on the other hand, redcloak learned 9th level spells only a relatively short time ago. there's no real reason to believe him to be higher than 17.

To be fair, a close examination of the CaLG thread suggests that at least some of the deductions may be daisy chains^* -- low-evidence assumptions depending on low-evidence inferences depending on etc, which usually works better in mystery stories than it does in real life. Not asserting it's wrong in this case or any other, but it may not be as authoritative as we'd hope.
_{* - I didn't realize this until I re-read 990 (last panel, Roy says "I just barely caught up to where I was before I died") and went to the thread to check. I was startled to see that CaLG times it to 862 (with little evidence beyond "because other assumptions depend on it being true"), and the more I looked into some of the deductions the less sure I became.}

Redcloak became 17th level shortly before 826 (panel 7), and among a number of other events he's been grinding Kraagor's Tomb. I don't know of any clear evidence one way or t'other, but it wouldn't be unreasonable if he's gained a level or two.

[Silly Name]

Have we established who other mysterious ambusher was? Serini had someone helping her carrying off Lien and O-Chul, and we don't know anything about them.

I suspect they'd be of help in Serini's fight against the order, but not knowing who and what they are it's hard to gauge in what role or extent.

[TRH]

Actually, let's think about where Redcloak is for a sec. They've had a week and change where they spent day after day fighting monsters that are strong enough to give Xykon XP. That means CR 20+ encounters, given his likely level. And from the Giant's commentary, something he's been setting up for a while is Xykon starting to fear Redcloak gaining on him in terms of power, so this seems like it'll play into that.

So I'm going out on a limb here and saying Redcloak's reached level 20 already or is really close. It'd take more than him being a little stronger than Xykon expects to make his sudden but inevitable betrayal a real threat, so I'm guessing he's gotten a lot stronger since we last knew for sure what level he was.

[Squire Doodad]

you are underestimating the oots levels and overestimating redcloak. according to the class and level geekery, roy is at least level 14, possibly higher. belkar is at least level 15, again, possibly higher. durkon is 13+, for having lost levels to resurrection. elan is 14+, haley is 16, V is 16. there is nobody level 12 in the order, and even the most conservative estimates would put only one of them at 13. plus minrah is at least level 10 and capable of dealing damage to redcloak, so she's not to be discounted.

on the other hand, redcloak learned 9th level spells only a relatively short time ago. there's no real reason to believe him to be higher than 17.

It does seem I underestimated the Order a bit, they're all a few levels above where I'd thought. That makes it a fairer fight, especially since I believe Roy and Durkon both have weapons able to hurt Xykon.

Though, as other people in this thread have mentioned, RC could easily have gained a level since we last saw him if not more, and as a side effect Oona is pretty powerful too, albeit a lesser threat than the big ol' Epic Lich.

[Shadowknight12]

Actually, let's think about where Redcloak is for a sec. They've had a week and change where they spent day after day fighting monsters that are strong enough to give Xykon XP. That means CR 20+ encounters, given his likely level. And from the Giant's commentary, something he's been setting up for a while is Xykon starting to fear Redcloak gaining on him in terms of power, so this seems like it'll play into that.

So I'm going out on a limb here and saying Redcloak's reached level 20 already or is really close. It'd take more than him being a little stronger than Xykon expects to make his sudden but inevitable betrayal a real threat, so I'm guessing he's gotten a lot stronger since we last knew for sure what level he was.

That actually depends on how much XP has Redcloak been spending casting certain spells or crafting magic items. Redcloak now has access to the Miracle spell, which may cost him 5,000 XP per cast if he chooses something that isn't a simple spell duplication. Gate, which Redcloak has used on-screen, also has a 1,000 XP cost if used to call a creature, and some summoning spells like Planar Ally also come with a (minor) XP cost (and we know Redcloak is fond of summoning spells).

[Squire Doodad]

That actually depends on how much XP has Redcloak been spending casting certain spells or crafting magic items. Redcloak now has access to the Miracle spell, which may cost him 5,000 XP per cast if he chooses something that isn't a simple spell duplication. Gate, which Redcloak has used on-screen, also has a 1,000 XP cost if used to call a creature, and some summoning spells like Planar Ally also come with a (minor) XP cost (and we know Redcloak is fond of summoning spells).

Regardless, it's reasonable to assume Redcloak has gained some amount of levels. We can't say Epic with any certainty, but he's still quite a bit stronger than he was last time.