Paint me a picture: What is an epic-level rogue capable of?

[Steakpie]

The title pretty much sums it up. With Serini about to engage with the Order, I really started wondering what amazing things a rogue at epic level can pull off in a D&D setting. I'm not talking about things like 'do a ton of damage', but I'm more thinking in terms of display of powers and skills.

[Quartz]

Serini has clearly pumped her Use Magic Device skill, so the sky's the limit.

[DavidBV]

Assumign she'd be low-epic and got an epic feat or two: not much, mechanically speaking. Sneak Attack of Opportunity, Epic Dodge, certainly are things that can give an edge, but still she shouldn't be able to defeat a level 16-17 party including spellcasters.

but... taking into account she has spent decades holing up and preparing for exactly this kind of encounter, and has incredible material and magical resources at her disposal? And that she has the element of surprise? She is the clear favorite in a confrontation. She can easily disable V and maybe Durkon on first round, then remain undetectable to the rest of the order so she can hunt them down trivially.

[Resileaf]

Serini is currently literally Batman. She presumably knows everything about the Order and has prepared for their coming for weeks. It's a popular statement that given sufficient preparation time, Batman can defeat anyone in the DCverse. I believe this applies here too.

[Truffles]

Ok for starters gear... Looks like she's wearing goggles of true seeing, has a pouch of holding, and 5 vials on her rambo ammo belt, and one crossbow. Next skills: She easily defeated o'chul and lien because her hide skill, and bluff skill...
Like previous poster posted, her use magic device seems to have some ranks too. She can do almost anything a wizard can do.
Finally, story purposes: this is her dungeon. She (epic lvl rogue) invested all her treasure into this (aside equipment) She is very well prepared for this encounter.
Also theory after writing this... Haley is going to inherit serinis gear

[Kurald Galain]

what amazing things a rogue at epic level can pull off in a D&D setting.

The "epic" part adds practically nothing. An "epic" rogue (level 21 and up) gets only a few small numerical bonuses compared to a "non-epic" (level 18-20) rogue. Like, 10% more likely to connect on a hit, 5% more hit points, things like that. No biggies.

But, a high-level (epic or not) rogue with fifty years of prep time? Yeah, she can pull off some seriously impressive guerilla warfare, supported by that pile of magic items she appears to be donning in the penultimate panel. Basically, be undetectable due to massive stealth check plus invisibility, attack from hiding for high amounts of sneak attack damage, fade back and repeat. Her main problem is probably going to be dealing with the spellcasters (because Durkon and Vaarsuvius can have tons of tricks up their sleeve that Serini doesn't know about).

[CountDVB]

I don’t know what she can do, but it’s worth keeping in mind that as far as we know, she didn’t move back into the cave until after Xykon became a lich and nearly killed her.

According to the timeline, Xykon became a lich in 1156 and it is now 1184. Additionally from the timeline, he disappeared in 1177, the time where Redcloak meets up with Right-Eye and the latter tries to convince him to stay.

Then Xykon finally comes back with the diary in 1180. This means Serini was not that long living in the cave. After all, she built it up as a self-protecting tomb, because she wasn’t gonna give up adventuring.

The Order suspects she’s alive giving the Sending and given how they know she was in contact with Girard and that she’s a Rogue, they might have suspicions of her

[Good Coyote]

I don't have much 3.5 experience to say what it means, but Serini not only continued adventuring for a while, but she lives in a dungeon where Xykon is capable of gaining experience. And she can get xp from defeating her critters, doesn't have to kill them.

So she might not even be on the low end of epic anymore.

[CountDVB]

I don't have much 3.5 experience to say what it means, but Serini not only continued adventuring for a while, but she lives in a dungeon where Xykon is capable of gaining experience. And she can get xp from defeating her critters, doesn't have to kill them.

So she might not even be on the low end of epic anymore.

Yeah, but that's with Xykon having help from the rest of Team Evil. By herself, it would be too risk to try and do so, especially since she is a Rogue. I mean, she would have her advantages, but still...

[Kurald Galain]

So she might not even be on the low end of epic anymore.

Perhaps surprisingly, that doesn't really make that big a difference. Basically, all the really good abilities (or items) a rogue can get, are already available before level 20. Epic levels are written to be less impactful than "regular" pre-epic levels; not more impactful (except for Epic Spellcasting, that is; but rogues don't get that).

[Good Coyote]

Yeah, but that's with Xykon having help from the rest of Team Evil. By herself, it would be too risk to try and do so, especially since she is a Rogue. I mean, she would have her advantages, but still...

True, I doubt she's arranging a weekly cagematch. But she does have at least one ally, and the dungeon is of her own design. I could see her even just getting some incidental xp from managing occasional near-escapes. There might be a bit of DM ruling involved on what counts for a defeat though, so it's a possibility but can't be said for sure.

Perhaps surprisingly, that doesn't really make that big a difference. Basically, all the really good abilities (or items) a rogue can get, are already available before level 20. Epic levels are written to be less impactful than "regular" pre-epic levels; not more impactful (except for Epic Spellcasting, that is; but rogues don't get that).

Interesting! Diminishing returns, makes sense. Does that mean she should have used those levels to multiclass to paladin after all?

[TRH]

Actually, doesn't it look like she's brewing her own potions? That requires a caster level AIUI, so perhaps she has multiclassed.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also theory after writing this... Haley is going to inherit serinis gear

Neat idea;

I wonder if Serini has a prestige class folded in their somewhere, or a multiclass related to Artificer. (those goggles gave me a slight Artificer vibe)

[Morty]

In the rules, not much. The rogue class is something of a joke on high levels, almost as much as fighters. Thankfully the comic doesn't really stick by the rules that much, but I still predict liberal use of magic items to do a lot of the heavy lifting.

[NerdyKris]

Serini is currently literally Batman. She presumably knows everything about the Order and has prepared for their coming for weeks. It's a popular statement that given sufficient preparation time, Batman can defeat anyone in the DCverse. I believe this applies here too.

We don't know that she knows anything about the Order at all, actually. She knows who the Sapphire Guard are, and it sounds like she isn't aware of any non paladins in the group. That flashback of Ochul was his flashback, not hers. She is making the assumption that the systematic destruction of the gates is due to the Sapphire Guard alone. All she knows is that they've been destroyed one by one and she's been alerted to this through the warning system set up. One thing that points towards this is that she accuses Ochul of destroying ALL the gates, including the two that were destroyed by accident. She knows it's probably related to Xykon because he almost killed her to get her diary so he could find the gates, and he's outside right now.

[Riftwolf]

We don't know that she knows anything about the Order at all, actually.

Serini is currently literally Batman.

In between these two extremes is a range of possibities. She might know who the Order are, but not the full extent of their capabilities. She might have only started prying on the Gates after Dorukans gate fell, witnessed the trial where the Orders defence was 'we didn't want the gates to fall into enemy hands', heard Roy's speech at Girard's Gate (where he reiterated that idea), and not know anything about V or Durkon other than they're spam-telemarketers for their cause.
If I was to go by the dice, I'd say Serini would try to take down Durkon with a poison dart first, then if she won initiative, hit V. This would limit the party's ability to effectively treat poison and purge invisibility, giving her enough time to snipe Elan and Haley before trying to bluff Roy and Belkar into surrendering. I don't think she has enough information to know all the reasons this plan wouldn't work.
Another reason why Serini isn't Batman is that I don't hate Serini yet.

[Doug Lampert]

Interesting! Diminishing returns, makes sense. Does that mean she should have used those levels to multiclass to paladin after all?

Per the 3.0 and 3.5 DMG, it is SUPPOSED to be exponential for all characters, with +2 levels roughly doubling power (except for level 1 to level 2 which may be supposed to be more impactful).

That was their goal.

Diminishing returns for non-spell-casters in mid to high to epic levels is an accident, as is the fact that WotC UNDERESTIMATED the growth in power of mid-high level casters (i.e. x2 power for +2 levels is an understatement for them at least from level 5-18 or so, levels 19 and 20 aren't all that impressive for casters).

The silliness that is Epic Spellcasting is also an accident.

Looking at the Epic rogue in the SRD, four levels in the class gives +2d6 sneak attack, +1 to trap sense, and a rogue epic bonus feat for every 4 full levels.

Rogue special abilities may be taken in place of rogue epic bonus feats, the fact that this is not an obviously bad idea tells you that this progression is underpowered as rogue special abilities are things that were good when you first got one at level 10, and by the time you get your first epic feat already have the four you wanted most.

Epic levels (regardless of class) also give +1 epic attack bonus every two levels, +1 epic save bonus every 2 levels, and +1 epic feat every three levels. This means that your rogue never gets his fourth iterative attack and progresses in attack bonus more slowly than he did pre-epic.

This is pretty much flatly less valuable than non-epic rogue levels, unless you really like the rogue class's epic feats. (I don't.)

[Noodz]

I'm more knowledgeable of dnd 3.5 videogames than the pen and paper version, so my knowledge is a lot more "gamey", but on the sea of epic feats there are quite a few oddities and get out of jail cards:

Spellcasting Harrier epic feat let's you AoO threatened spellcasters even if they cast defensively, and adds a +4 bonus on the attack roll. Notably, unlike the Mage Slayer feat, it doesn't say that "[targets] are aware that they cannot cast defensively while being threatened by a character with this feat". It requires a lot of setup, but an epic rogue could position itself where he could induce an enemy spellcaster to cast defensively while threatened to land a nasty sneak attack of opportunity. So under the right setup, Serini could end her turn next to V, who might try to forcecage her only to get sneak attacked (and probably OHKO) by an adamantine weapon.

Epic dodge is actually high epic what with requiring 30 ranks of tumble and dex 25, but once per round an epic rogue can "avoid all damage" from a single attack for the target it chose to dodge on that round. If Serini had that, Roy would be unable to damage her unless he can at least get more than one attack per round on her.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm more knowledgeable of dnd 3.5 videogames than the pen and paper version, so my knowledge is a lot more "gamey", but on the sea of epic feats there are quite a few oddities and get out of jail cards:

Spellcasting Harrier epic feat let's you AoO threatened spellcasters even if they cast defensively, and adds a +4 bonus on the attack roll. Notably, unlike the Mage Slayer feat, it doesn't say that "[targets] are aware that they cannot cast defensively while being threatened by a character with this feat". It requires a lot of setup, but an epic rogue could position itself where he could induce an enemy spellcaster to cast defensively while threatened to land a nasty sneak attack of opportunity. So under the right setup, Serini could end her turn next to V, who might try to forcecage her only to get sneak attacked (and probably OHKO) by an adamantine weapon.

Epic dodge is actually high epic what with requiring 30 ranks of tumble and dex 25, but once per round an epic rogue can "avoid all damage" from a single attack for the target it chose to dodge on that round. If Serini had that, Roy would be unable to damage her unless he can at least get more than one attack per round on her.

High level spellcasters rarely let an enemy get that close. There are lots of defenses available to a high level caster, including most obviously 5' step away so as to let the melee step between me and the foe which is usually a BETTER choice than concentration even if both are available and no special feats are in play.

If Serini has epic dodge then high level fighters attack a MINIMUM of 4 times a round on a full attack and the order has lots of people to her one. She wants to waste her entire turn making only one attack so as to negate one of Roy's attack, she's too stupid to have reached epic.

I'm not that impressed with the Rogue Epic feats, they're nice compared to a normal feat, but they're not anything that makes up for missing out on actual class features. (Other than sneak attack which is a class feature she does get, if Serini is level 27, minimum for epic dodge, then a full attack with two weapons or rapid shot gives her potentially 56d6 worth of sneak attack damage to go with her weapon damage.)

[Devils_Advocate]

"What is an epic-level Rogue capable of?" and "What do the rules specifically empower epic-level Rogues to do directly?" are two different questions. The first can be answered with so much more than just the answers to the second. For example, Serini's magic items aren't totally unrelated to her class, because Rogues can easily be unusually skilled at the acquisition and use of magic items. Then there's social influence. You know, the old...

Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."

Granted, a lot of this comes down to being cunning and prepared in ways not really related to character class or even level. But high-level Rogues do have a lot of skills at their disposal. Like, stealing the Eiffel Tower may not be something you can do with one Epic Sleight of Hand check, but there comes a point where not doing so means that you aren't trying especially hard.

Well she sneaks around the world from Kiev to Carolina...

Actually, doesn't it look like she's brewing her own potions? That requires a caster level AIUI, so perhaps she has multiclassed.

Serini has a magic cauldron that removes some of the normal requirements of potion-brewing. I don't know that, but I'd bet on it. (I think that someone said that the runes on it translate to "Magic Instant Pot"? So it probably speeds up the process, too. Like that spell that Malack had! Any restriction on how magic works can be resolved with more magic. Which is dubious writing in most cases, but here it is at least an established element of the chosen setting, 'cause D&D gonna D&D.)

And avoiding restrictions is the relevant idea here. Rogues excel at circumventing stuff. We can hypothesize about what advantages Seriin would have in a straight-up fair fight against the Order of the Stick, but that has basically zero bearing on what's going to happen in the comic. If you want to make accurate predictions, try to figure out what Serini could do to make a fight as unfair as possible in her favor or even avoid fighting, as she partially succeeded at doing with the Paladins.

[Squire Doodad]

Serini has a magic cauldron that removes some of the normal requirements of potion-brewing. I don't know that, but I'd bet on it. (I think that someone said that the runes on it translate to "Magic Instant Pot"? So it probably speeds up the process, too. Like that spell that Malack had! Any restriction on how magic works can be resolved with more magic. Which is dubious writing in most cases, but here it is at least an established element of the chosen setting, 'cause D&D gonna D&D.)

Yeah, in a situation of "why is Serini making potions when she isn't a caster", I'm going to learn towards one of "they found a magic pot that lets her do so", "Girard and/or Dorukan made her a magic pot" or "there's some obscure feat or Rogue Prestige Class that removes the caster requirement".
And DnD is very much a situation where the right pieces of magic can fix issues with other types of magic.

[denthor]

So she is capable of quite a bit. No one has mentioned her age category.

Her strength and dexterity is down by at least -1 or more mabe -3 in each middle age old age. This affects stealth and how much she can carry 1/2lings are not that strong to begin with. Also her hide skill. Magic can make armor class.

Her speed is 20 feet or slower depending on weight. We know the Order can run.

I expect at least full 3 pages of discussion between the order and her. Not sure if Belkar, Haley or Elan. In that order

Haley has a wand for healing and fly. I do not believe we know the others.

She is not Batman maybe Gambit. Quick in and out distractions. No real punch just annoyingly accurate.

[Squire Doodad]

So she is capable of quite a bit. No one has mentioned her age category.

Her strength and dexterity is down by at least -1 or more mabe -3 in each middle age old age. This affects stealth and how much she can carry 1/2lings are not that strong to begin with. Also her hide skill. Magic can make armor class.

Her speed is 20 feet or slower depending on weight. We know the Order can run.

I expect at least full 3 pages of discussion between the order and her. Not sure if Belkar, Haley or Elan. In that order

Haley has a wand for healing and fly. I do not believe we know the others.

She is not Batman maybe Gambit. Quick in and out distractions. No real punch just annoyingly accurate.

Huh, that's a good point. She's probably not as strong as she was a decade or so ago. I wonder if Troll blood counts as counteracting the aging process...?
We're definitely going to have a chat with her, just maybe not in this particular confrontation.

[Ganbatte]

Assumign she'd be low-epic and got an epic feat or two: not much, mechanically speaking. Sneak Attack of Opportunity, Epic Dodge, certainly are things that can give an edge, but still she shouldn't be able to defeat a level 16-17 party including spellcasters.

but... taking into account she has spent decades holing up and preparing for exactly this kind of encounter, and has incredible material and magical resources at her disposal? And that she has the element of surprise? She is the clear favorite in a confrontation. She can easily disable V and maybe Durkon on first round, then remain undetectable to the rest of the order so she can hunt them down trivially.

Kind of infuriating that all this preparation and setting up is going exactly the opposite way of where it should go.

I mean I hope there'll be some redeeming revelation that she's also been preparing a lot more for Xykon - which she knew was coming- but I'm not sure it's probable.

[TRH]

Kind of infuriating that all this preparation and setting up is going exactly the opposite way of where it should go.

I mean I hope there'll be some redeeming revelation that she's also been preparing a lot more for Xykon - which she knew was coming- but I'm not sure it's probable.

I mean, it doesn't matter that Epic Rogue isn't nearly as imposing as Epic Spellcaster or even Epic Fighter where combat is concerned. She'll still mop the floor with the party effortlessly because it's too early in the book for her to lose.