Lirians Gate: a reminder

[Riftwolf]

Can anyone remind me how Lirians Gate fell? I don't have SOD anymore and it seems the exact cjrcumstances are important.

[Zmeoaice]

Redcloak started a forest fire and the trees holding up the gate burned and it went kkkkkkkrackroom

[dancrilis]

Can anyone remind me how Lirians Gate fell? I don't have SOD anymore and it seems the exact cjrcumstances are important.

Spoiler: SOD

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While Xykon dealt with Lirian Redcloak moved to capture the gate.

The gate was attached to two treants who destroyed it after Redcloak set them on fire.

[Riftwolf]

Spoiler: SOD

Show

While Xykon dealt with Lirian Redcloak moved to capture the gate.

The gate was attached to two treants who destroyed it after Redcloak set them on fire.

Thanks, a follow up question,

Spoiler

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Was the gate destroyed by the treants then? I'm trying to establish how many Gates were destroyed under the 'we can't let this fall into enemy hands!' logic (its either two, three or four, depending on whether Elan triggering the self destruct was an act of logic)

[Metastachydium]

Thanks, a follow up question,

Spoiler

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Was the gate destroyed by the treants then? I'm trying to establish how many Gates were destroyed under the 'we can't let this fall into enemy hands!' logic (its either two, three or four, depending on whether Elan triggering the self destruct was an act of logic)

Not entirely clear.

Spoiler: SoD

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My reading would be that the whole thing was a disaster for both sides involved: Redcloak set fire to a treant starting a chain reaction that reached the treants holding the Gate in place, and as those treants fell over burning, the Gate cracked open. What the treants did might have been deliberate, but at any rate, they were already on fire when it happened.

[ebarde]

Honestly these gates seem really flimsy all things considered, I guess that's somewhat of a feature instead of a bug as at least one of the gates had a specific built-in blow itself up doomsday button. And I suppose if they were actually stacked to the brim with abjuration spells then Team Evil would have secured one by now

[The Pilgrim]

Thanks, a follow up question,

Spoiler

Show

Was the gate destroyed by the treants then? I'm trying to establish how many Gates were destroyed under the 'we can't let this fall into enemy hands!' logic (its either two, three or four, depending on whether Elan triggering the self destruct was an act of logic)

Spoiler

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It was not really intentional from the guard's point of view. Redcloak flame-striked some treants who were not the two guarding the gate, but the fire caught on and provoked a full forest fire. The guarding treants just caught fire and attempted to run in panic, destroying the Gate.

Redcloak then blamed himself for the failure, as he started the fire.

[Moblin]

One thing I've wondered: Given just how many years earlier Lirian's gate fell before the other gates started toppling, what are the chances that the elves would have built a new gate upon the spot by now? The elves have never really struck me as likely to be short the necessary Archmage+Cleric for the Divine/Arcane magic combo needed to build one. It wouldn't be connected to the order of the scribble's warning systems if it existed, so wouldn't invalidate those systems still showing Lirians' gate as 'gone'.

[Lord Raziere]

One thing I've wondered: Given just how many years earlier Lirian's gate fell before the other gates started toppling, what are the chances that the elves would have built a new gate upon the spot by now? The elves have never really struck me as likely to be short the necessary Archmage+Cleric for the Divine/Arcane magic combo needed to build one. It wouldn't be connected to the order of the scribble's warning systems if it existed, so wouldn't invalidate those systems still showing Lirians' gate as 'gone'.

Unfortunately as Shojo stated in his crayon exposition, half of the Sapphire Guard's purpose was to go around on a secret crusade to destroy any and all information that the Gates existed outside of those who are meant to guard it. if the elves knew, the Sapphire Guard would take steps to get rid of anyone who did so that they can't be misused. this is of course the entire reason why Redcloak exists in the first place so......if some elves got killed off as to make sure the Gates can't used or tampered with by the elves, that would both perfectly make sense and make sure the current plot remains tense while also showing the Sapphire Guard's horrific actions are worse than we thought.

on the other hand, the Elves live on an entirely separate continent from Lirian's Gate. Lirian was in all probability living alone. so it not probable that the elves know at all, thankfully.

Edit: also, the paladins investigated Lirian's Gate as well in Paladin Blues, and found no such gate being built, only burnt remains.

[Ionathus]

Honestly these gates seem really flimsy all things considered, I guess that's somewhat of a feature instead of a bug as at least one of the gates had a specific built-in blow itself up doomsday button. And I suppose if they were actually stacked to the brim with abjuration spells then Team Evil would have secured one by now

Hmm, you bring up an interesting point: Dorukan and Lirian both had built-in destruction mechanisms (Dorukan's was intentional, Lirian's was debatably unintentional or just straight up silly. Lashing the gate to Treants? Really?). Serini seems to have the opinion that NO gate should ever be destroyed, even to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. But her own teammate(s) seemed to disagree!

I wonder if this is simply a coincidence, or if Dorukan and Lirian - having actually devised & cast the rift-sealing and gate-creating spells - had a deeper understanding of the dangers and risks of someone evil controlling the gate? And therefore, they built potential self-destruction into their defenses?

I suppose Soon felt the same way, as the paladins all were willing to shatter their own gate too.

Really, Serini (and potentially Girard) might have been in the minority on Serini's current "don't ever destroy a gate!" philosophy.

[Riftwolf]

Spoiler

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It was not really intentional from the guard's point of view. Redcloak flame-striked some treants who were not the two guarding the gate, but the fire caught on and provoked a full forest fire. The guarding treants just caught fire and attempted to run in panic, destroying the Gate.

Redcloak then blamed himself for the failure, as he started the fire.

Got it. I still think two, maybe three gates being destroyed by the Death before Defeat party is enough to warrant Serini's actions (and that she's really not going to like Roy one bit)

[KorvinStarmast]

Spoiler: SOD

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While Xykon dealt with Lirian Redcloak moved to capture the gate.

The gate was attached to two treants who destroyed it after Redcloak set them on fire.

Redcloak and Belkar ought to get along really well.

[Lexible]

Honestly these gates seem really flimsy all things considered, I guess that's somewhat of a feature instead of a bug as at least one of the gates had a specific built-in blow itself up doomsday button. And I suppose if they were actually stacked to the brim with abjuration spells then Team Evil would have secured one by now

Just one question. What are these gates you keep mentioning?

[KorvinStarmast]

Just one question. What are these gates you keep mentioning?

That works better with this smilie, I think. so that it would look like this

What are these gates you keep mentioning?

[facw]

the Elves live on an entirely separate continent from Lirian's Gate.

Huh? Soon explicitly says they are in "the sunkissed forests of elven lands" when they find the rift (which Lirian would guard) and Lirian herself. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html

Indeed, there are two rifts (Lirian's and Girard's) on the Western Continent with the Elves, and then on each on the Northern and Southern Continents, and then our final one at the North Pole (not part of the Northern Continent, though connected by The Solid Sea)

[dancrilis]

Thanks, a follow up question,

Spoiler

Show

Was the gate destroyed by the treants then? I'm trying to establish how many Gates were destroyed under the 'we can't let this fall into enemy hands!' logic (its either two, three or four, depending on whether Elan triggering the self destruct was an act of logic)

Spoiler: SOD

Show

This is somewhat unsure.

The treants were attached to the Gate they moved seemingly to get away from the fire and broke it (it was not Redcloak's intention).

My reading is that it wasn't intentional on the treants part - but there is an open question as to if such a measure (having the gate attached to treants) was intentional on Lirian's part to prevent the Gate falling into the wrong hands.

Dorukan and Lirian were in a relationship (and as such in contact) and together they could replace the Gates - so it is not unreasonable that both of them would be more willing to have a gate destroyed then allow it to fall into enemy hands.

[Wildstag]

Unfortunately as Shojo stated in his crayon exposition, half of the Sapphire Guard's purpose was to go around on a secret crusade to destroy any and all information that the Gates existed outside of those who are meant to guard it. if the elves knew, the Sapphire Guard would take steps to get rid of anyone who did so that they can't be misused. this is of course the entire reason why Redcloak exists in the first place so......if some elves got killed off as to make sure the Gates can't used or tampered with by the elves, that would both perfectly make sense and make sure the current plot remains tense while also showing the Sapphire Guard's horrific actions are worse than we thought.

The elves were major allies to Azure City (presumably not JUST to the Paladins). As such, it might have been judged that the elven leadership should know about the Gate. Also keep in mind that Team Peregrine was sent to aid the refugees/resistance. Given their involvement, keeping them entirely in the dark about the Gates would be HIGHLY unusual.

I think it's fair to say that the Elves probably know about the Gates to some extent, since they would likely need to cordon off part of their lands due to the expanding nature of the opening. Whether they specifically know about the magic used to SEAL the Gates, as well as how to potentially control them, that would be especially unlikely.

[Lord Raziere]

The elves were major allies to Azure City (presumably not JUST to the Paladins). As such, it might have been judged that the elven leadership should know about the Gate. Also keep in mind that Team Peregrine was sent to aid the refugees/resistance. Given their involvement, keeping them entirely in the dark about the Gates would be HIGHLY unusual.

I think it's fair to say that the Elves probably know about the Gates to some extent, since they would likely need to cordon off part of their lands due to the expanding nature of the opening. Whether they specifically know about the magic used to SEAL the Gates, as well as how to potentially control them, that would be especially unlikely.

Huh? Soon explicitly says they are in "the sunkissed forests of elven lands" when they find the rift (which Lirian would guard) and Lirian herself. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html

Indeed, there are two rifts (Lirian's and Girard's) on the Western Continent with the Elves, and then on each on the Northern and Southern Continents, and then our final one at the North Pole (not part of the Northern Continent, though connected by The Solid Sea)

.....Huh. Weird.

I checked

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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and it doesn't say they were in Elven Lands. Redcloak just tells the sphiel about the Gates and gods to Xykon, then they cut to attacking Lirian's Gate without specifying, complete with all their goblin minions. How'd they get all their forces over there? Guess I just assume that Lirian's Gate was on the same continent as Dorukan's, since they never explicitly teleported in. Guess I missed the part where it was in elven lands where Redcloak said it earlier.

Yeah, I still maintain they don't know how to close the Gates. That would slack the tension on the current plot, so thats a no-go.

[dancrilis]

.....Huh. Weird.

I checked

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

and it doesn't say they were in Elven Lands. Redcloak just tells the sphiel about the Gates and gods to Xykon, then they cut to attacking Lirian's Gate without specifying, complete with all their goblin minions. How'd they get all their forces over there? Guess I just assume that Lirian's Gate was on the same continent as Dorukan's, since they never explicitly teleported in. Guess I missed the part where it was in elven lands where Redcloak said it earlier.

Yeah, I still maintain they don't know how to close the Gates. That would slack the tension on the current plot, so thats a no-go.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

My assumption is that the forest that Redcloak and Right-Eye were in when they encountered Xykon was on the western continent and that Redcloak was there in (theory at least) to capture the Gate, and the paladins were there as allies of the Elves (officially) and to seek the bearer of the Crimson Mantle (unofficially).

[hamishspence]

Redcloak isn't in a forest when he meets Xykon:

Spoiler

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he's in a swamp. A swamp with trees - but still, a swamp. The paladins drove the goblins from their hill holdings, to the swamp, then established forts in the swamp to take control of it and drive the goblins out of there, as well.

The battle in Lirian's Glade takes place 3 years after that. I can believe that the swamp was on the Northern Continent rather than over on the Western Continent.

"Their homeland is more than a thousand miles south of here" is what Redcloak says during the attack on his village in the Goblin Hills, not "their homeland is more than a thousand miles east of here." And he recognises the Azurite clothing, too.

[dancrilis]

Redcloak isn't in a forest when he meets Xykon:

Spoiler

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he's in a swamp. A swamp with trees - but still, a swamp. The paladins drove the goblins from their hill holdings, to the swamp, then established forts in the swamp to take control of it and drive the goblins out of there, as well.

The battle in Lirian's Glade takes place 3 years after that. I can believe that the swamp was on the Northern Continent rather than over on the Western Continent.

"Their homeland is more than a thousand miles south of here" is what Redcloak says during the attack on his village in the Goblin Hills, not "their homeland is more than a thousand miles east of here." And he recognises the Azurite clothing, too.

I am assuming that the swamp is a part of a wider forest area.

Whether Redcloak is a westerner or an northerner doesn't really matter.

Spoiler: SOD

Show

He had a goal of capturing the gate before he meet Xykon, and was ready to sell Xykon on that idea when he met him - that discussion did not seem to include the words 'on the other side of the world' and if it had I am dubious as to whether human Xykon would have went for it.

It makes sense that Redcloak was in the vicinity of the Gate prior to meeting Xykon (his lifes mission being to capture a gate and his active quest for an arcane caster had turned up less then suitable results), he then met Xykon and offered him in on the scheme and discussed matters in a coffee shop, the scheme suffered a setback (and Xykon became a Lich) and they visited that same coffee shop to discuss matters - no element of this seems to involve teleporting around continents.

I think it seems reasonable to assume that Xykon and Redcloak teamed up while both were on the western continent - but this is not a certainty by any means.

[hamishspence]

I think it seems reasonable to assume that Xykon and Redcloak teamed up while both were on the western continent - but this is not a certainty by any means.

In How the Paladin Got His Scar

Spoiler

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Gin-Jun says they'd investigated every goblinoid settlement on this continent (the Southern) and in the north - he doesn't mention the Western Continent.

We know Xykon has Greater Teleport:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html

Spoiler

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so it's quite plausible that, even if he didn't teleport to Lirian's Gate with the whole goblin army, he teleported back to Beelzebuddy's with just Redcloak and Right-Eye.

[Metastachydium]

Spoiler: SoD

Show

The swamp also has naked lizardfolks running around with spears, and Western lizardfolk don't run around in swamps naked with spears, partly because swamps are a rare commodity south of the mountains where Western lizardfolk live.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: potential SoD spoilers

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We know what the Western continent looks like: its basically all desert except for some forest for the elven lands with the elves themselves sealed up, and only humans and lizardfolk have been fighting over the livable scraps of desert for 500 years. Sure there is the Goaway Mountains, but I'm pretty sure the Sapphire Guard never went to the Western continent, and I'm pretty Redcloak isn't from there. if they were spotted by Lirian or Girard's people, it'd be a reason to think they were breaking the agreement.

and Redcloak's deity has had more interaction with Thor and Loki than Tiamat, and his historical war was clearly northern continental, so I don't believe Redcloak is from the Western Continent, he is from the North, there is too much evidence to say otherwise. and if the elves were coordinating with the Sapphire guard on that raid on Redcloak's village, surely there would be elves around to help them, but there weren't.

that and we only have maps of the Southern and Western continents, the North Continent hasn't been canonically mapped as far as I can tell. Redcloak's a Northerner, its just that they used magic to get to Lirian's Gate, like they used teleportation to get to Girard's Gate right as it blew up.

[hamishspence]

Spoiler

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we only have maps of the Southern and Western continents, the North Continent hasn't been canonically mapped as far as I can tell.

The upper parts of the Northern Continent are shown in detail in Utterly Dwarfed.

Spoiler

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"Goblin Hills" wasn't mentioned, but there were swampy bits - so maybe that area is near a swampy bit, and too small to get a label - for just lost its name after the goblins were driven from it.

[Mic_128]

Unfortunately as Shojo stated in his crayon exposition, half of the Sapphire Guard's purpose was to go around on a secret crusade to destroy any and all information that the Gates existed outside of those who are meant to guard it. if the elves knew, the Sapphire Guard would take steps to get rid of anyone who did so that they can't be misused. this is of course the entire reason why Redcloak exists in the first place

Huh. On that note, was it ever explained how the first Redcloak found out about the gates?

[hamishspence]

On that note, was it ever explained how the first Redcloak found out about the gates?

From the Dark One.

Spoiler

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A different goblin cleric was fleeing from elves, in the elven forest, when they stumbled across a rift. Curious, they investigated it- sending things through, including a chicken, and then got killed.

This caused the Dark One to notice the rift, examine it, conclude that it could be used, create the Cloak, bestow it on a different cleric- and send that cleric to raise an army and seize the rift. He was thwarted and killed by the Order of the Scribble. A subsequent attempt at raising an army and seizing the rift was thwarted by the Sapphire Guard.


So, while the historical war almost certainly took place on the Northern Continent, we know that at least one goblin was on the Western Continent when they discovered the rift.


I would speculate that the second attempt took place on the Eastern Continent, and never got far - the Sapphire Guard did divinations, detected that a plan to send a goblin army across the sea to the Western Continent was in progress, and curtailed it.




Given that Redcloak is completely unaware that there are more rifts than just the 1 rift until Xykon tells him, even after the bestowing of the Cloak has given him The Plan, I believe that it only contains information involving the one Western Continent rift.

[Mic_128]

From the Dark One.

Spoiler

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A different goblin cleric was fleeing from elves, in the elven forest, when they stumbled across a rift. Curious, they investigated it- sending things through, including a chicken, and then got killed.

This caused the Dark One to notice the rift, examine it, conclude that it could be used, create the Cloak, bestow it on a different cleric- and send that cleric to raise an army and seize the rift. He was thwarted and killed by the Order of the Scribble. A subsequent attempt at raising an army and seizing the rift was thwarted by the Sapphire Guard.


So, while the historical war almost certainly took place on the Northern Continent, we know that at least one goblin was on the Western Continent when they discovered the rift.


I would speculate that the second attempt took place on the Eastern Continent, and never got far - the Sapphire Guard did divinations, detected that a plan to send a goblin army across the sea to the Western Continent was in progress, and curtailed it.




Given that Redcloak is completely unaware that there are more rifts than just the 1 rift until Xykon tells him, even after the bestowing of the Cloak has given him The Plan, I believe that it only contains information involving the one Western Continent rift.

Huh, I totally forgot all that. I guess I need to reread SoD again. Thanks!

[Werbaer]

The elves were major allies to Azure City (presumably not JUST to the Paladins). As such, it might have been judged that the elven leadership should know about the Gate. Also keep in mind that Team Peregrine was sent to aid the refugees/resistance. Given their involvement, keeping them entirely in the dark about the Gates would be HIGHLY unusual.

The common Azurites didn't even know that the Saphire Guard exists (says Hinjo).
The military Azurite Leadership doesn't know about the Saphire Guard or the Gates (HtPgiS).
The most powerfull noble houses (Kabuto) didn't know about the gate ("give Xykon what he wants").

No, i don't think the Elven have been told about the Gate in Azure City.

[pearl jam]

Kubota.