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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by neceros View Post
    In D&D murder is always evil.
    Killing isn't always evil. Breaking the law isn't always evil (and isn't even always chaotic). And yet an unlawful premeditated killing is somehow always evil.

    Must be the combination of things.

    Btw your statement about murder always being evil is wrong in 5e. The only alignment that has a typical but not required associated behavior that mentions violence (not killing) is Chaotic Evil, which is arbritrary violence fueled by greed, bloodlust or anger. The other Evils focus on a broad taking/doing what you want. Also, with one exception, morality isn't about specific actions and if those actions are evil or good or lawful or chaotic. It is about moral and social attitudes that can influence or result in typical but not required associated behaviors. Certainly murder can be something an evil person would be more likely to do under it, it just isn't automatically "murder is always evil".

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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Killing isn't always evil. Breaking the law isn't always evil (and isn't even always chaotic). And yet an unlawful premeditated killing is somehow always evil.

    Must be the combination of things.

    Btw your statement about murder always being evil is wrong in 5e. The only alignment that has a typical but not required associated behavior that mentions violence (not killing) is Chaotic Evil, which is arbritrary violence fueled by greed, bloodlust or anger. The other Evils focus on a broad taking/doing what you want. Also, with one exception, morality isn't about specific actions and if those actions are evil or good or lawful or chaotic. It is about moral and social attitudes that can influence or result in typical but not required associated behaviors. Certainly murder can be something an evil person would be more likely to do under it, it just isn't automatically "murder is always evil".
    Murder is always evil. Killing is not. It's a fairly large distinction.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Murder is always evil. Killing is not. It's a fairly large distinction.
    It's also not one in the current edition of 5e.

    As I understand it, it wasn't in 3e PHB either, but I'd have to go check. It wasn't until later on in the evil darkness and brilliant good or whatever series that it got extrapolated and defined. Edit: My understanding is wrong, 3e PHB has lots to say on killing and when it's something evil creatures do.

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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    I would keep careful watch over how many good vs how many evil beings they kill. If they are literally killing *everyone*, based on 3e alignment distribution, Chaotic Neutral seems the most likely best fit.

    If they go out adventuring, killing evil monsters too much, I may warn them that they're getting dangerously close to Chaotic Good.
    That... seems completely incorrect. Evil fights Evil all the time,, and killing evil things is not automatically a Good action. The WHY matters just as much as the WHO. Let's put it this way: if killing things of a particular alignment moved you toward the opposite alignment, every entity in the Blood War would have turned Good eons ago.

    A murder hobo who kills indiscriminately is pretty much the definition of Chaotic Evil.

    I do think that there can be room for Evil PCs, but it depends a s heavily on the flavor of Evil. Extremely greedy or manipulative PCs may find a home with a group of Neutral or Good PCs (especially if they are willing to "go along to get along" while the Good characters are watching), but a character that twists the heads off kittens for the lulz almost certainly will not.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Murder is always evil. Killing is not. It's a fairly large distinction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Killing isn't always evil. Breaking the law isn't always evil (and isn't even always chaotic). And yet an unlawful premeditated killing is somehow always evil.
    Sometimes the term "immoral killing" is given the name "murder". Like many words, "murder" is not limited to only one definition.

    Even the definition you were using is a shortened version of a more nuanced definition
    Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human with malice aforethought.
    Here you can see the law attempting to invoke morality via "justification", "valid excuse", or "malice afterthought". So even when murder is "unlawful killing" it is of a particular kind where the law tries to scope down to just what that lawmakers viewed as "immoral killing" as a way to merge the two usages.

    So I humbly suggest, you two might be using different meanings of the word "murder".



    Personally I don't see a connection between "muderhobo" and "murder". Plenty of times people have used "murderhobo" to describe characters that kill in either moral xor legal manners. It seems to me "murderhobo" is more closely related to "hobo that frequently kills more than <the speaker> expects makes sense".
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-03-27 at 06:06 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Sometimes the term "immoral killing" is given the name "murder". Like many words, "murder" is not limited to only one definition.
    Doesn't that make "murder is always evil" a circular statement? Or possibly the term is tautology?

    Even the definition you were using is a shortened version of a more nuanced definition
    It definitely is, because what is and what is not murder is (generally) heavily defined by the legal codes of a specific entity.

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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Doesn't that make "murder is always evil" a circular statement? Or possibly the term is tautology?
    You will find many tautologies in philosophy (doubly so in the Ethics branch) when a term is being established for later discussion seeking its definition.

    The term being a tautology can be useful.
    1) For example if a "murderhobo" is doing "immoral killing" then that adds context to that usage of the word "murderhobo". This in contrast to the usage of "murderhobo" as doing "unlawful killing" which has a significantly different content to that different usage of the word "murderhobo".
    2) Using a term like "immoral killing" can be used to sidestep arguments about what makes immoral killing immoral. Like establishing agreed upon premises, this allows the participants to jump to the conversation at hand instead of repeating the previous conversation again.


    I guess I should also explain that these tautological terms when used for practical applications have 2 simultaneous definitions. For example Kant might say murder is the term for immoral killing and murder is defined as one person intentionally killing another because that is what makes killing immoral. (At least I think Kant would be that broad. I know Kant would say it in at least 2 hard to understand fashions)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    It definitely is, because what is and what is not murder is (generally) heavily defined by the legal codes of a specific entity.
    Indeed. The legal definition of murder is an attempt to codify a definition of a particular kind of unlawful killing. Usually that particular kind of unlawful killing is being defined in an attempt to capture the same meaning as immoral killing (in spite of ongoing debate as to what killing is immoral). A hopeless objective, but they try anyways.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-03-27 at 06:58 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Regardless, all the definitions I've ever seen (which admittedly isn't a ton, but I did check just before posting up thread) are about legality, not morality.

    Edit: also this is all a sidebar based on a joke I was making. The important thing is that in the current edition of D&D, D&D being where the term murderhobo is being used in relation to in this thread, murder or even just killing isn't directly part alignment. Indirectly, sure, but not directly as in "murder is always evil".

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Regardless, all the definitions I've ever seen (which admittedly isn't a ton, but I did check just before posting up thread) are about legality, not morality.
    I noticed. Hence why I clarified the situation by mentioning the definition you had not seen. Hopefully clarifying the context of posts #32 and #33.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Edit: also this is all a sidebar based on a joke I was making. The important thing is that in the current edition of D&D, D&D being where the term murderhobo is being used in relation to in this thread, murder or even just killing isn't directly part alignment. Indirectly, sure, but not directly as in "murder is always evil".
    Posts #31 and #33 were jokes? Your comedy career might want to make the jokes easier to identify. That "joke" looked a lot like 2 people disagreeing because they were using different definitions for the same word.

    Also this is the Roleplaying Games forum. We don't presume 5E is the final verdict.


    If I misread a joke as an actual post, then the worst case is I provided some unsolicited information. Oh well. Sorry for missing the joke.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-03-27 at 09:02 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipjig View Post
    That... seems completely incorrect. Evil fights Evil all the time,, and killing evil things is not automatically a Good action. The WHY matters just as much as the WHO. Let's put it this way: if killing things of a particular alignment moved you toward the opposite alignment, every entity in the Blood War would have turned Good eons ago.

    A murder hobo who kills indiscriminately is pretty much the definition of Chaotic Evil.

    I do think that there can be room for Evil PCs, but it depends a s heavily on the flavor of Evil. Extremely greedy or manipulative PCs may find a home with a group of Neutral or Good PCs (especially if they are willing to "go along to get along" while the Good characters are watching), but a character that twists the heads off kittens for the lulz almost certainly will not.
    By Playground convention, blue text is for humor / sarcasm.

    The more serious point being, the answer to the question depends both on how you define "murderhobo", and how alignment works. The answer I gave is perfectly valid for one set of definitions, which may or may not match those used by any particular table or system.

    But, most of all, the question was "would *you*…?". And, if *I* were using alignment, you can bet it would be something about as coherent and humorous as "which team are you killing for".

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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    But, most of all, the question was "would *you*…?". And, if *I* were using alignment, you can bet it would be something about as coherent and humorous as "which team are you killing for".
    If *you* were using alignment, *I* might be rolling sanity checks.

    Edit: Although, kidding aside, the "which team" allegiance system is used by some groups. So that is a decent answer even if taken seriously.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-03-27 at 09:01 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Posts #31 and #33 were jokes?
    #31 was, which is why there was blue text. I got dragged down the rabbit hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Also this is the Roleplaying Games forum. We don't presume 5E is the final verdict.
    It's the current edition for six years now, so it's important to note.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    #31 was, which is why there was blue text. I got dragged down the rabbit hole.
    Ah, it is always hard to tell if a post with blue text is a joke, or if just the blue text is a joke.

    Sorry for helping dig that rabbit hole.
    Last edited by OldTrees1; 2021-03-27 at 09:23 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    If *you* were using alignment, *I* might be rolling sanity checks.

    Edit: Although, kidding aside, the "which team" allegiance system is used by some groups. So that is a decent answer even if taken seriously.
    Thanks for the laugh! Even if it did come at a rather inappropriate moment - I should learn not to read forum posts unless I'm prepared for the consequences of bursting out laughing.

    I kinda figured team allegiance wouldn't be a *completely* unknown usage.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2021-03-27 at 10:04 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Alignment is a function of a character's behavioral patterns in the long-term. You decide what your character's alignment is at char-gen, after that it's in the GM's hands based on what you -do- with the character, even before you mix in alignment shifting magics and effects. So, yes, I would change a character's alignment if what's on the sheet doesn't match their in-game behavior, regardless of which direction is appropriate for it to shift. Wouldn't even bat an eye at doing so unless it was going to have a profound impact on the character mechanically like a paladin falling or the like. Even then, the PC's player would be getting a "heads up" that he's headed in that direction and should decide whether or not to change course.

    On the particular case of murder hobos, it's a matter of exactly what you mean. If the character is just particularly mercenary and callous, that's not really an issue. If they're regularly derailing the game, hurting everyone else's good time for their own amusement, they get a firm warning that such is not tolerated once I've determined it -is- deliberate. The player will be told to shape up or be shown the door.

    While it's commonly going to be a chaotic "neutral" character that causes this issue, it can just as easily be a character that's of any alignment taken to an absurd, caricatured extreme. The "lawful" character that -never- breaks the law or allows anyone around him to do so without turning them in immediately or the "chaotic good" character that insists on "lol, I'm so random" nonsense that isn't actually evil but is super annoying are also examples. The problem is problematic behavior at the table, not the alignment and "it's what my character would do" they use as a thin veil for their nonsense.

    My current character in our weekly games is a chaotic neutral character and a particularly mercenary one. He believes quite firmly that absolute freedom is the ideal state of being. Authority is only respected in so far as it has power he cannot resist and is usually signing the proverbial check. Even then he will quickly and firmly resist any plainly illegitimate action by an authority figure. As someone conscious of alignment and dedicated to his own, he will not tolerate lawful outsiders on the prime material unless it's beyond his power to reasonably do anything about it. This attitude has caused intraparty conflict more than once but never actually caused a problem at the table. Everybody took the butting of in-character heads in stride. It's also gotten him killed once (yay, ress magic). He occasionally does something evil when he's very angry or frustrated with a situation if it will resolve things quickly and then endeavors to make up for it with good deeds later. I think "murder hobo" is probably a pretty apt description but it's not a problem at our table.
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Murderhobo is not always evil. I have quest. Kill stuff, take stuff, sell stuff to get better stuff to kill better stuff to take better stuff...

    Someone just doing an endless array of kill quests with no character attachment to the world is a murderhobo. Take the gang from OOTS. At first, most of the gang was portrayed as murderhobos hired by Roy. As the comic progressed, only Belkar kept his murderhobo status until deep into the comic.

    But only Belkar really did anything *evil* but they were all kinda murderhobos.

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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calthropstu View Post
    Murderhobo is not always evil. I have quest. Kill stuff, take stuff, sell stuff to get better stuff to kill better stuff to take better stuff...

    Someone just doing an endless array of kill quests with no character attachment to the world is a murderhobo. Take the gang from OOTS. At first, most of the gang was portrayed as murderhobos hired by Roy. As the comic progressed, only Belkar kept his murderhobo status until deep into the comic.

    But only Belkar really did anything *evil* but they were all kinda murderhobos.
    I think there is a difference to make between a Murderhobo by circumstance, and an absolute Murderhobo.
    If you teleport the first one into a civilised city, they will stop murdering and stealing up until he join back their killing quest. If you teleport the second one into a civilised city, they will start killing and taking stuff away from every citizen they meet.

    The first category are enabled by the GM, as if no perpetual good-aligned quest to kill for stuff is available, the character will stop behaving like a murderhobo (or fall into the second category).
    Last edited by MoiMagnus; 2021-03-28 at 05:22 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    It does make me wonder which was the original murder hobo:
    - the character that had nothing to them other than rolling dungeons killing monsters and taking loot.
    - the character that murdered NPCs in town for lols

    I strongly suspect it was the former.

    Also I like the term murder-hero for the former, when they're killing dangerous monsters threatening the safety of others. Even if they're also hobo-like. I should probably use hero-hobo but it doesn't have the same snap to it.

    Edit: unfortunately all I'm seeing several sources link back to a Reddit that claims a rpg,net 2007 source. Which I know is not the case, the term was definitely in use long before then, including common use in during TSR era. I can remember using it with a specific group of friends in the late 90s.

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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    I don't think "murderhobo" always means chaotic, or even an excessive amount of murder beyond what other "non-murderhobo" characters do.

    My impression from the usage I've seen is that it describes a character who:
    * Puts all resources into the growth of their personal power, caring not for luxuries, social status, or charity. Camps outside town instead of paying 1 gp for an inn, while carrying 20k gp they're saving for a better weapon, for instance.
    * Considers violence to always be an option. Not necessarily bloodthirsty, but if - say - the local militia tries to arrest them? Or a noble is threatening to make trouble for them? Roll initiative.
    * Doesn't tend to have or cultivate relationships, other than the rest of the party.

    And it's not necessarily bad, it just limits what type of games they're suitable for. Explore an ancient, deadly ruin? Murderhobo works just fine. Be guild-masters in a thriving but troubled port city, trying to navigate tricky politics? Not so much.

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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    I don't think "murderhobo" always means chaotic, or even an excessive amount of murder beyond what other "non-murderhobo" characters do.

    My impression from the usage I've seen is that it describes a character who:
    * Puts all resources into the growth of their personal power, caring not for luxuries, social status, or charity. Camps outside town instead of paying 1 gp for an inn, while carrying 20k gp they're saving for a better weapon, for instance.
    * Considers violence to always be an option. Not necessarily bloodthirsty, but if - say - the local militia tries to arrest them? Or a noble is threatening to make trouble for them? Roll initiative.
    * Doesn't tend to have or cultivate relationships, other than the rest of the party.

    And it's not necessarily bad, it just limits what type of games they're suitable for. Explore an ancient, deadly ruin? Murderhobo works just fine. Be guild-masters in a thriving but troubled port city, trying to navigate tricky politics? Not so much.
    The main ways to solve tricky politics with violence is with either vast amounts of it or the ability to selectively apply it to the high placed people who opposes you.
    Last edited by noob; 2021-03-28 at 04:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    The main ways to solve tricky politics with violence is with either vast amounts of it or the ability to selectively apply it to the high placed people who opposes you.
    Sure, it works in some cases, but in a political context it's being a one trick pony to a deleterious extent.

    Like playing an Enchanter who only took enemy-targeting enchantment spells, leaving them completely unarmed against anything immune to mind-affecting. Not a good choice in most dungeon crawls.

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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    The alignment written on the character sheet is what the pc thinks they are.

    If I notice a player deviating too far from the tenets of their alignment as I understand it I'll keep track of their actions and record what their alignment actually is.

    I have a neutral good (allegedly) pc who's coming across as displaying distinct neutral-stabby tendencies

    Anything that looks for good alignment may not work for him.

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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Altheus View Post
    The alignment written on the character sheet is what the pc thinks they are.
    Which is the primary use of Alignment in the current edition of 5e. There's very little mechanical effects. Which makes 5e the most useful version of alignment to date.

    If I notice a player deviating too far from the tenets of their alignment as I understand it I'll keep track of their actions and record what their alignment actually is.
    IMO that's generally better than force changing it when the player disagrees, but if you're playing an edition that has common mechanical effects tied to alignment, that's likely to eventually make them angry the same way fudging rolls or quantum ogres will. It'll seem sneaky when it finally comes out in the open.

    Best yet is to have a discussion with them if you care. And even then it's best to establish the rules in advance. (E.g. you have a campaign rule "no evil PCs, by which I mean not regularly acting within the typical behavior described in the PHB in my judgement.")

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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    IMO that's generally better than force changing it when the player disagrees, but if you're playing an edition that has common mechanical effects tied to alignment, that's likely to eventually make them angry the same way fudging rolls or quantum ogres will. It'll seem sneaky when it finally comes out in the open.

    Best yet is to have a discussion with them if you care.
    Yes. Having a character be convinced of being good while he isn't is fine. Having a player be convinced that he understood the alignment system while he didn't, in systems in which alignments are core mechanics and not just ribbons, is some OOC argument waiting to happen, and the earlier misunderstanding are cleared the better.

    That does not mean the player must know with certainty the alignment of their characters. But IMO they must know with certainty whether or not they know it with certainty. Both "what is on your sheet is correct" and "what is on your sheet should be correct, but might not in some corner cases" are fine, be the ambiguity between the two is not.

    (Same is true for other part of the character sheet. Do you notice your players that an object from their inventory is stolen immediately or only when the player says he wants to use the object? Both are fine to me as long as there is no misunderstanding about whether or not the character sheet is always truthful or only represent character knowledge.)
    Last edited by MoiMagnus; 2021-03-29 at 10:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoiMagnus View Post
    in systems in which alignments are core mechanics and not just ribbons,
    5e alignment is the least "ribbon" of any D&D alignment to date, since it actually ties into roleplaying effectively, instead of hampering it by being proscriptive or descriptive.

    What it doesn't have is a whole bunch of other mechanics that hook into it. (It has some though.) Which is a good thing, if it's designed to be a roleplaying tool.

    It also makes handling of Chaotic Neutral Murderhobos less of a silly argument about what alignment the character falls into and who gets to describe. That's a distraction from the actual issue at hand.

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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    That's a distraction from the actual issue at hand.
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    moral killing = "good"
    immoral killing = evil
    justified killing = lawful
    unjustified killing = not lawful

    ethics = lawful-chaotic axis (state)
    morale = good-evil axis (church)

    Yes, a murderhobo is not good and not lawful, so they have 4 possible alignments.

    Yes, allowing all alignments, but always a pressure towards cooperative play, whatever the alignment has to be.
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    ...instead of hampering it by being proscriptive or descriptive...
    How does descriptive alignment hamper roleplay?

    Unless you mean that players try to avoid RP that would otherwise be in character just to avoid an alignment label?

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by FrogInATopHat View Post
    How does descriptive alignment hamper roleplay?

    Unless you mean that players try to avoid RP that would otherwise be in character just to avoid an alignment label?
    No, it is when players play one of Lawful Stupid, Chaotic Stupid, Stupid Good, Stupid Evil, or Stupid Neutral.

    The description of Neutral leads to Stupid Neutral because on the morale side, its example shows alternating good and evil deeds is considered neutral; and on the ethics side, its example shows alternating lawful and chaotic deeds is considered neutral.

    Vietnamese Proverb: It takes less than 3 days to ruin a reputation, and it takes more than 3 years to build a reputation.

    If we take it as 2 days to ruin a reputation and 4 years to build a reputation, that is a ratio of 2 years to one day, or 730:1 ratio. In other words, doing deeds on the evil or chaotic side should contribute 730 times to karma than good or lawful deeds.
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  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Would you change a "chaotic neutral" murderhobo's alignment? Do you allow them?

    Quote Originally Posted by FrogInATopHat View Post
    How does descriptive alignment hamper roleplay?

    Unless you mean that players try to avoid RP that would otherwise be in character just to avoid an alignment label?
    DM: I'm the final judge of Alignment, and based on your past actions you're all now Neutral Evil.

    Player1: Cool, I'll start actually roleplaying with Neutral Evil moving forward. I wasn't before. This'll be a lark. *campaign goes down in flames*

    Player2: That's BS. I wasn't roleplaying Neutral Evil. You're wrong. It's my Roleplay, how dare you tell me I'm doing it wrong! *campaign goes down in flames*

    There is no win for descriptive alignment for PCs, with the a person other than the player (the DM) as the final judge of what description is correct. It's lose (for the DM) or lose (for the DM and the Player).

    Even Player3 is upset: Curse you, you've uncovered my dastardly plot to sneak by a Neutral Evil murder-hobo. Foiled again!

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