D&D Base Class Contest XV Chat Thread

[MoleMage]

Welcome to the chat thread for the forteenth Base Class Competition for D&D 5e. If you wish to say anything about the competition which is neither a submission nor a vote, then it belongs here. You do not need to be a contestant to post here. You are allowed to critique a competitor’s work and offer suggestions on how to improve their homebrew through this thread, but it is preferred if you do so through that class’ specific thread (if applicable).

Current Contest: Partial Casters

Voting Thread: Coming May 17th

Spoiler: Former Competitions

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1st contest: Who Needs Swords or Sorcery?, won by WarrentheHero with the Inventor

2nd contest: Expect a low Margin of Terror, Won by Mourne with the Sleepwalker

3rd Contest: The Elements, and not the Periodic Ones (Probably?), won By Pygmybatrider with The Shaman

4th contest: Does Not Meet Expectations, won with a tie by Molemage with the Destined and Pygmybatrider's Mesmer

5th contest: Time to Chill out, won by Molemage with the Wintreborn

6th contest: The Monster Mash, won with a three-way tie by Molemage with the Golem, theVoidWatches with the Lycanthrope, and daemonaetae with the Elemental Scion

7th contest: Remix Mastery, won by KOLE with the Ranger Remixed

8th contest: Contest VIII: Magic Without Slots, won by MoleMage with the Cultist

9th contest: It's Time for Time, won by MoleMage with the Clockwinder

10th contest: Blast from the Past, won by PairO'DiceLost with the Martial Adept

11th contest: Contest XI: Signature Creation won by MoleMage with the Chef

12th contest: Contest XII: Hybrid Vigor won by MoleMage with the Witch

13th contest: Based in Science won by Old Harry MTX with the Pilot

14th contest: Contest XIV: Monster Mash II won by BerzerkerUnit with the Beheld.

Spoiler: Contest Rules

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1) The class you homebrew should fit the theme. You can interpret the theme as broadly as you like without risk of disqualification, but doing so may reduce your chances of earning votes during the voting period.
2) You may only create one base class. If you create more than one class then you must choose which one to enter and remove all the others from this thread and the contest (making them invalid) . If you do not specify which one you favor by the time voting begins, all of your content is invalid.
3) When you submit your class you must create a post on this thread which either has the content or holds a link to it. You may also optionally create one other individual thread for your class on the homebrew design sub-forum. If it is found that you have revealed your class on another site or on another thread than one on the homebrew design sub-forum, your entry will be considered invalid. If you do make a specific thread for you class, please mention its involvement to the competition in that thread. If you use external formatting resources such as Homebrewery, or GMBinder it is recommended that you also create a PDF of the content and share it here.
4) You may use other homebrew content (such as feats, spells, magical items and monsters) or even features to supplement your class, provided you have permission from the original creator and provide links to the source. Failure to receive permission from the original creation will disqualify you from entry in the current contest.
5) Your class must have fully completed mechanics and descriptions for it to be valid. Entries are due by 11:59 PM Central Time on the deadline. Any submissions after this point are invalid. No changes can be made to your class while voting is taking place. Failure to comply with the previous rule will result in disqualification.
6) Any content which has been declared invalid by the rules above cannot be voted for, but you may decide to remove it from the contest and create another class instead. If you are disqualified then you are not allowed to enter any more homebrew for this competition, though you may still vote and later enter the next competition.
7) Please note that misunderstandings occur, if you break a rule which results in disqualification it might be excused if you can convince the group that it was a result of confusion over the rules.

Contests stay up for 8 weeks unless an extension is requested by participants. Voting threads then go up for 3 weeks before the next contest begins.

Spoiler: Suggested Themes

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Dragons (What it says on the face.)
Heroes from Myths (Take a specific figure from myth, folklore, or cultural stories, like Heracles or the Monkey King or even Paul Bunyan, and make it a class.)
Divine Judgment (Whether you are the long arm of your god or just an unfortunate soul cursed by the divines.)
Other Media (Games, books, comics, movies, music, theater, even other TTRPGS).
Breakfast Cereal Mascots (Current or historical.)
Be Your Own Class (Turn an existing subclass into a feature-complete base class of its own.)
Not in Kansas Anymore (You can't use the same core damage or spell progression as any of the core classes.)

Also note that themes that have not been used in at least six contests (anything up to Magic Without Slots) are also eligible for voting.

[Damon_Tor]

The Spellslinger is ready for alpha testing. It's feature complete and has one complete subclass. It's lacking a spell list for now, but just assume it has access to any spell that does nothing but 1) deal damage with minor riders or 2) protect the caster. EDIT: Spell list added. If you think I missed an obvious spell, let me know.

Unlike many partial casters, the Spellslinger is intended to spend most of its time casting. They lack access to the higher level spells and spell slots, but they make much more efficient use of their lower level slots. The core abilities of the class are:

• -At 5th level they can cast two 1st level spells at once using the same slot (at level 17 they can do this with 2nd level spells as well). Balance-wise, consider that full casters gain 3rd level spells at this level.
• -At 11th level they can cast their first level spells at-will (also increases to 2nd level level spells at level 17). This is the level where cantrips become on-par with first level damage spells, so by making the spells at-will at this level we're merely keeping them relevant. Note that this ability does not work with the ability to cast two spells at once, which requires a slot, so at this point Spellslingers will be using their first level slots to double-cast their first level spells, while the at-will versions of the spells are the single-cast variety.
• -At 15th level they gain a special 15th level spell slot that can only be used to upcast 1st level spells. The slot grows with your Spellslinger level and eventually allows upcasting 2nd and 3rd level spells. The ability to cast a spell at 20th level might seem too powerful, but consider the limitations: a fireball, lightning bolt or erupting earth cast at 20th level still deals less damage than meteor swarm.

The subclass given is intended to be fairly typical, with a lot of int-based riders, keeping the class solidly dual-attribute dependent.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Psionicist

Pls have a look and tell me if I'm on to something!

[MrStabby]

Thinking about making a submission - when we post a class are we allowed to add commentary to it, things like design aims etc.? I think I may have asked this for a different comptition, but can't remember the answer.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Thinking about making a submission - when we post a class are we allowed to add commentary to it, things like design aims etc.? I think I may have asked this for a different comptition, but can't remember the answer.

I usually do, you can also do that here.

[MoleMage]

Thinking about making a submission - when we post a class are we allowed to add commentary to it, things like design aims etc.? I think I may have asked this for a different comptition, but can't remember the answer.

Yeah most people have at least a concept of what their vision for the class is, some people get more specific with their goals for different features.

For this one I'm thinking of bringing back 3.5 style "weaponlike spells" (I know that spell attacks mostly cover that but still) in an Int-based Artificer-slots class. Not sure what I'd call it. Maybe Manifester?

[MrStabby]

OK, added a work in progress for the Manabound, a class based on internalising magic and using it to sustain them and enhange their physical prowess.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...95&postcount=5

[Damon_Tor]

The Psionicist

Pls have a look and tell me if I'm on to something!

Looks very promising.

The structure is interesting. The disciplines read almost like mini-subclasses, with meditations being similar to warlock invocations. I like it.

I have issues with the psi-dice multiplying alongside your proficiency bonus: I know that mirrors how the Psi Knight and Soulknife do it in Tasha's, but in fueling subclass abilities the dice are much less powerful on those classes, where on this class they are more like spell slots in power, and as written the class loses too little when they multiclass (or rather, another class gains to much by taking just a few levels). If you want to maintain the link between the number of dice and proficiency bonus for consistency with what's already been published, then the actual size of the dice needs to be much more relevant to the power of each talent than they are now.

For example, a Psion 1/Wizard 19 using Telekinetic Fling can spend 4 psi dice to hurl a huge object, dealing 4d12+4d6+IntMod Damage (45 avg) in a line attack with advantage. This is as much damage as the spell Chain Lightning, a 6th level spell. One level in a class giving what is in effect 3 additional 6th level spells isn't appropriate. But of course the Psion 20 barely does it better, using all of his daily resources to deal 8d12+IntMod damage, or 57 points of damage, 3 times daily... while the other guy has 19 levels of some other class (potentially a nearly full assortment of fullcaster slots...)

I'm not 100% sure how to fix this while leaving it in the same format as the Soulknife/Psi Knight. The best I can come up with is to treat the size of the dice as the "slot level" for disciplines.

For example, Telekinetic Fling might say "The size of the object you can fling, and thus the damage dealt and the width of the line attack, depends on the size of your psi dice: d6=small, d8=medium, d10=large, d12=huge." But even this wouldn't solve the problem, only mitigate it some.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Looks very promising.

The structure is interesting. The disciplines read almost like mini-subclasses, with meditations being similar to warlock invocations. I like it.

I have issues with the psi-dice multiplying alongside your proficiency bonus: I know that mirrors how the Psi Knight and Soulknife do it in Tasha's, but in fueling subclass abilities the dice are much less powerful on those classes, where on this class they are more like spell slots in power, and as written the class loses too little when they multiclass (or rather, another class gains to much by taking just a few levels). If you want to maintain the link between the number of dice and proficiency bonus for consistency with what's already been published, then the actual size of the dice needs to be much more relevant to the power of each talent than they are now.

For example, a Psion 1/Wizard 19 using Telekinetic Fling can spend 4 psi dice to hurl a huge object, dealing 4d12+4d6+IntMod Damage (45 avg) in a line attack with advantage. This is as much damage as the spell Chain Lightning, a 6th level spell. One level in a class giving what is in effect 3 additional 6th level spells isn't appropriate. But of course the Psion 20 barely does it better, using all of his daily resources to deal 8d12+IntMod damage, or 57 points of damage, 3 times daily... while the other guy has 19 levels of some other class (potentially a nearly full assortment of fullcaster slots...)

I'm not 100% sure how to fix this while leaving it in the same format as the Soulknife/Psi Knight. The best I can come up with is to treat the size of the dice as the "slot level" for disciplines.

For example, Telekinetic Fling might say "The size of the object you can fling, and thus the damage dealt and the width of the line attack, depends on the size of your psi dice: d6=small, d8=medium, d10=large, d12=huge." But even this wouldn't solve the problem, only mitigate it some.

Hmmm. I could limit expenditure to 1+class level/3. Math is the same but caps Multiclassers.

[Damon_Tor]

Hmmm. I could limit expenditure to 1+class level/3. Math is the same but caps Multiclassers.

It's better. But now instead of 1 level in Psion giving a guy effectively 3 6th level slots, it's giving them 12 1st level slots. Better probably, but still way out of line compared to other multiclass options.

Like I said, I'm not sure if there's a solution here apart from accepting that the psi-dice system as written for the Soulknife and Psi Knight can't sub in for spell slots in this way.

Maybe make the psi dice a sort of sorcery point equivalent? Where the talents' core functionality (damage dealt, number of targets, etc) scales based more on the class levels in some way, and then the psi dice can be used to do... well, sorcery-point type things. I'm spitballing here.

[Edea]

Finally able to try one of these, again.

How will this interact with multiclassing, if we're not going with a standard half- or third- caster (i.e. one that still gets spellcasting at 1st level)? Should we give a separate progression for that? Or do we just count them as "1/2" no matter what their slot progression actually is (I think the new Artificer class does this)?

I find myself just wanting to re-do the monk as a partial caster, NGL, but that's not particularly original, and I'm uncertain if it's even contest-legal.

[BerzerkerUnit]

It's better. But now instead of 1 level in Psion giving a guy effectively 3 6th level slots, it's giving them 12 1st level slots. Better probably, but still way out of line compared to other multiclass options.

Like I said, I'm not sure if there's a solution here apart from accepting that the psi-dice system as written for the Soulknife and Psi Knight can't sub in for spell slots in this way.

Maybe make the psi dice a sort of sorcery point equivalent? Where the talents' core functionality (damage dealt, number of targets, etc) scales based more on the class levels in some way, and then the psi dice can be used to do... well, sorcery-point type things. I'm spitballing here.

Since I don’t think anything this class has compares favorably to Shield (nothing does) and they’ve opted to delay casting, sacrifice a capstone, an upper level slot, and would be squandering actions with 1st level Psionic tricks when they could be Evil Eyeing or something, I think I can call it fixed. Not that there won’t be some really good possible combos, but I’d stack them against the heavy armor proficiency and bonus action heal a level of fighter provides and think Fighter is probably the stronger of the two.

[Morphic tide]

So, I'm chipping away at a 2/3rds progression Wilder working with both iterations of the subclass mechanics, making for the basic resource pool being class-independent. The hangup keeping me from getting the basic table down just yet is that I'm having issues working out what the full progression looks like to take every third level off of, so this post will contain that both to demonstrate differences when I do post the raw chassis and to work out what that actually looks like:

Spoiler: Theoretical full progression for reference

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Level	Disciplines Known	Psionic Power	Psionic Talent	Psi Limit	Power Level
1	2	4d6	1d8	1	1
2	2	4d6	1d8	2	1
3	2	4d6	1d8	2	2
4	2	4d6	1d10	3	2
5	3	6d8	1d10	4	3
6	3	6d8	1d10	5	3
7	3	6d8	1d12	5	4
8	3	6d8	1d12	6	4
9	3	8d8	1d12	7	5
10	4	8d8	2d8	8	5
11	4	8d10	2d8	8	6
12	4	8d10	2d8	9	6
13	4	10d10	2d10	10	7
14	4	10d10	2d10	11	7
15	5	10d10	2d10	11	8
16	5	10d10	2d12	12	8
17	5	12d12	2d12	13	9
18	5	12d12	2d12	14	9
19	5	12d12	3d8	14	9
20	6	12d12	3d8	15	9

The thing with the Talent "Die" growing to multiple dice and becoming just "Talent" is that I'd thought out how far it could be pushed before truly "jumping", which had me think of "splitting" the die. I originally considered increasing the starting die size each time you need to split after the first, making it 1d12 -> 2d6 -> 3d8 -> 4d10, with the original 1d6 having three ticks (d8, d10, d12) before moving up, two dice having the same, three having two bumps, then you have one bump at four dice and could technically move to 5d12 if tolerating more discontinuity. To list it fully, divided by number of dice:

1d6 -> 1d8 -> 1d10 -> 1d12, +1 avg. per increase
2d6 -> 2d8 -> 2d10 -> 2d12, +2 avg. per increase, +0.5 from prior stage
3d8 -> 3d10 -> 3d12, +3 avg. per increase, +.5 from prior stage
4d10 -> 4d12, +4 avg. per increase, +1.5 from prior stage

This gives fifteen maximum ticks, far more than needed and pushing well into reviving quadratic nonsense. As I'm going with Talent being more enduring dice used in precisely the same fashion as the Psionic Dice, the splits mark it substituting a larger number of dice to make higher level Powers de-facto at will. From this, three dice means infinite 3rd-level Powers, which places very harsh design constraints even with the fact you're working from a dice pool that gives much more limited results than the innate frontloading of higher-level spells, so I can afford to gut the degrees of progression.

Those constraints aren't much an issue with how much the game still breaks down at level 17, so let's say we hit three dice in tier four. By the above, this gives a target of nine degrees of progression, right alongside the power levels, but we can make it every third level by cutting to seven degrees of progression, which can be accomplished by starting the dedicated classes at 1d8 and removing the 2d8, which adds to consistency by having each dice count breakpoint be d8s and increases the gain of the first split's average to +2.5. This gives two dice at level 10 and three at level 18, slightly off-tune with the tier shift.

Increasing the Psionic Dice size based on class levels serves well enough to have more reason for sticking to actual Psionic classes despite the dice pool being Proficiency based, increasing efficiency such that you slightly less than double per-die effect if you have the full progression, which I will probably end up representing with a CoDzilla based subclass because being 2/3rds when the subclass standard is 1/3rd is too natural a fit. Definitely going to be pretty far down the list, though. Going to be using the roll a lot, not replicating things. Higher-level output shall be about multiple instances, whether targets, areas, or uses, not getting frontloaded power. Unfortunately, not really any room to expand this beyond the subclasses, but you can't grow every progression for things not actually built to progress.

Then with Psi limit, my idea was purely 1.5x Power Level as a per-round limitation, so what you spend on your turn cuts into your off-turn Reaction power use, and you can't vomit a full burn on every part of your action economy because "full burn" is your per-turn capacity. So you're limited to 15 dice of output total at 20 for the full progression, and 10 dice for the Wilder I'm working on, being much less crazy than Paladin burst output and having a massive exponential inefficiency because of the "free" Talent dice taking the bottom of the cost out of your daily pool, so using the high-level Powers eats a huge number of your just-above-at-will Powers.

The logic on the Discipline progression is to make sure the partial progressions aren't one-trick at first level without needing to have 1st-level subclasses with Bonus Disciplines from their specialty, making it so that I can have the subclass kick in at 3rd level without 1st giving you only one thing to do from the function-oriented nature of Disciplines. Going to be starting with repurposing the Immortal to make the Natural Attack Psychic Warrior, performing much rectal excavation and looting of prior editions to furnish what is missing, like being able to bite people's faces off. The two other ideas are keying off the Avatar's rage and fear effects and implementing the Lurk as a burst setup.

...And just so the lot of you are aware, I actually typed this before filling the table, reasoning out the needed progression before writing it. Because that's the point of the post, to work out the full progression so I can scale it back to 2/3rds and get the basic chassis with the subsystem mechanics posted. I'm actually almost tempted to make a separate thread for it just to go after something else like Rune Magic because of how many people are doing Psionics, but I've already spent hours on this and it's a fundamentally different mode of operation from anyone else, so...

[Damon_Tor]

Three subclasses done on the Spellslinger, ready to PEACH. I may add a fourth subclass dedicated to psychic damage, but I'll think more on that.

The class was partially inspired by this post, a guy looking for a homebrew class that could operate like the character from Railgun. As I said in that thread, the concept would be best served by a class who can cast Catapult (or Lightning Arrow, another good option for simulating the railgun effect) with extra efficiency. This is what I've come up with, a class designed around effective use of low level spells. Naturally the effect he's looking for would use the Magnetist subclass.

[Damon_Tor]

It's interesting that we have two different takes on using psi dice as a central class feature. It's going to be difficult to avoid comparing the two.

[MrStabby]

It's interesting that we have two different takes on using psi dice as a central class feature. It's going to be difficult to avoid comparing the two.

I have been trying to avoid looking - to avoid stealing ideas (at least until my own details are more firmed up). It sounds like this needn't be a worry!

As for my own - I think it is mostly there. A level 15 ability that might need tweaking/rebuilding, some balance checks (well all the balance checks need to be done!) and all of my design notes/intent to be added (so you can see just how far wrong I went from my stated aims).

I am also thinking to write some class specific spells as well. That may depend on available time.

[Snowben Gaming]

Alright, after a week of work, my entry: the Occultist is up and running limping... mostly. The base class and one two subclass are done.

The spell list isn't going to have much purely offensive stuff on it, its mostly going to be illusion/enchantment spells with some necromancy, transmutation, divination and probably a couple of conjuration spells as the predominant types (although there probably will be a couple of evocation and abjuration spells thrown in there).

EDIT: Spell list is up

Talismans are x per long rest use with x depending on the strength of the talisman (the stronger the effect, the less uses) with stronger talismans requiring a high occultist level similar to warlock invocations.

Daemonology (the completed subclass) is a summoner.
Far Realms is the most offensive subclass, focusing on dealing and resisting psychic damage.
Prophecy is going to be a buffer with access to extra divination spells.

This is my first homebrew class, so its probably not that good tbh, but I'm fairly happy with how it turned out.

[MrStabby]

I have just been doing a calibration excercise...

Now I might want to recheck my calculations but it looks like I seriously lowballed the power on my efforts. I guess we have time for some major revisions.

It turns out that when you compare against other classes al those little abilities they get, like fighting styles and martial weapon proficiencies all add up.

[BerzerkerUnit]

It's interesting that we have two different takes on using psi dice as a central class feature. It's going to be difficult to avoid comparing the two.

I’m not sure how it will pan out, but I think mine will end up with a 4e Psion feel.

[sengmeng]

The Street Mage is complete. PEACHes welcome.

[Damon_Tor]

The Street Mage is complete. PEACHes welcome.

I feel like it needs more to distinguish it from an Arcane Trickster, conceptually and mechanically. As written, this feels like a replacement for the Arcane Trickster as a concept: if that's what you were going for I guess that's okay. It's well designed and would be fun to play, so you aren't getting low marks from me on that front.

[sengmeng]

I feel like it needs more to distinguish it from an Arcane Trickster, conceptually and mechanically. As written, this feels like a replacement for the Arcane Trickster as a concept: if that's what you were going for I guess that's okay. It's well designed and would be fun to play, so you aren't getting low marks from me on that front.

I've thought about your statement and I appreciate the feedback. I think you're right, and I'm not upset that it isn't significantly different from the arcane trickster, except in ratio of spellcaster to roguey-ness. That's really what I've always wanted in a character, a spectrum of how much spellcasting versus how much sneakiness, but today I thought of something I may want more: the punchadin. So I open this question to the while forum: should I work to make the street mage more than he was meant to be, or should I make a Holy Punching monk/paladin?

[MrStabby]

V1.0 of the Manabound now up.



I hope to have a look at what everyone else has come up with tomorrow.

[Morphic tide]

Okay, so, finally slapped down a very rough "bleh" of the early levels and a couple Disciplines. Haven't gone over numbers at all, I'm going to just be focusing on raw mechanical showcase until I have its bases covered with two subclasses and two Disciplines for each playstyle. Not even doing beast-specific dedicated durability until I have the healing pair covered and plugged in, and I have to do those before I can do the first subclass since the entire premise of it is tanking based on the split healing function.

...And yes, I do fully realize the stupidity of what Bestial Metamorphosis is doing with the bit about becoming Permanent and allowing full spellcasting, as well as the Baleful Polymorph function. This is competing with well-leveraged Simulacra just flat-out being an extra party member to cover in your spare wands and Plane Shift sending someone off to Baator or Hades. It eats a far larger portion of your daily resources for much less comprehensively game-breaking effects than many 7th-level spells can get up to.

[Snowben Gaming]

I've thought about your statement and I appreciate the feedback. I think you're right, and I'm not upset that it isn't significantly different from the arcane trickster, except in ratio of spellcaster to roguey-ness. That's really what I've always wanted in a character, a spectrum of how much spellcasting versus how much sneakiness, but today I thought of something I may want more: the punchadin. So I open this question to the while forum: should I work to make the street mage more than he was meant to be, or should I make a Holy Punching monk/paladin?

Stick with the street mage I'd say. The next competition is Divine Judgement (as it was tied with Partial Casters in the voting from the last contest) so you could always make the punchadin then I guess.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Will update the pdf on the actual contest thread when I have the sketches complete, but here is a complete class.

Latest version

[Damon_Tor]

Added multiclassing rules and a short Q&A to the Spellslinger.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Added multiclassing rules and a short Q&A to the Spellslinger.

Blerg, Forgot about Multiclassing.

[MrStabby]

Blerg, Forgot about Multiclassing.

Likewise... though I imagine I can do a near copy paste from artificer!

[BerzerkerUnit]

Psionicist

Reformatted with mostly alphabetical Disciplines and Talents. Going to see if I can get a friend to playtest it.

I'm pretty happy with it over all, probably going to include some gdoc pages with duration trackers since that's the beastly part. But generally speaking, due to Action economy, you probably won't have a half dozen effects running at any given time.

Wanting to keep the variability of Psi dice relevant so they didn't become "weaker spell slots" has led to some interesting effects. I have to do the old "can it solo a black dragon" test.

I think Defense stacking with this Psionicist is solid, but it's also rather action dependent and not particularly fun in that sense. The average wizard with Mage Armor runs 15-16 and 20-21 when it matters. This is maybe 18 all the time by level 8, but requires more set up or prep to break 20. If you're all about setting up to stay up, there's a lot of strong options, particularly for the gish subclass. Come to think of it, I should maybe go back and rename it Gish... Nah, I'm not going back until I get some critiques.

I hope folks like it. The dice expenditures are reminiscent of the old Psionic Power Points, but come off a little more like 4e's Augments in variety (like enhancing a Talent gets you a stronger related effect rather than always just X+1). The difference here is you get a lot more variety in what you can do with your powers, but its also more focused on classical Psychic schtick. It's definitely not mental wizard or 3.5's kitchen sink.

My target to was to get them up to around the power of 6th level spells, but more often than a normal caster can throw them with more variable but generally more enduring effects. A lot of juice in the subclasses, particularly in the mid and late game. Plunder Destiny is a high risk/reward effect, possibly on par with Wish for a Simulacrum of the bad guy, but harder to set up, like you've probably already beaten him before you can use it.