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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Are those the only two choices? Everyone is either a sidekick or a minion?
    Or a hero, a villain or a bystander.

    As for if those set (Batman & Robin, Superman & Supergirl, Wonder Woman & Wonder Girl, The Flash & Kid Flash) are - they would have been introduced as sidekicks at any rate I believe (could be wrong).

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Some of the classic DC sidekicks are Robin, Kid Flash, Speedy, and Aqualad. Arguably Wonder Girl as well, though I feel YMMV. I don't feel like Superboy or Supergirl ever really qualified for sidekick status in their narratives. I would argue Jimmy Olsen was more of a sidekick to Superman than either of those two.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian84 View Post
    Some of the classic DC sidekicks are Robin, Kid Flash, Speedy, and Aqualad. Arguably Wonder Girl as well, though I feel YMMV. I don't feel like Superboy or Supergirl ever really qualified for sidekick status in their narratives. I would argue Jimmy Olsen was more of a sidekick to Superman than either of those two.
    Oh yeah. I forgot about mentioning Speedy and Aqualad. Thank you for mentioning them.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    It's particularly awkward because Marvel depicted their Conan stories as taking place in the ancient past of the Earth 616 setting(And some elements from Conan ended up permanently part of Marvel lore), and Mary-Jane Watson, Spider-Man's romantic partner, is explicitly Red Sonja reincarnated—she's twice been possessed by Sonja's memories
    There is a connection of some sort yes between Mary Jane and Red Sonja, possibly MJ is a descendant of Red Sonja, but it is stated as being a possession.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    I believe the bolded assumes facts not in evidence. Aside from Batman (Robin), Superman (Jimmy Olsen in some runs), Green Hornet (Kato), Green Arrow (Speedy - I think he was in a lot more issues than most of the spin-off kid characters), Captain America (Bucky back in the WWII stories, *maybe* Falcon for a while) not many come to mind. Borderline would be Rick Jones (Hulk) and maybe Redwing (Falcon...but that's more mascot).

    There's plenty of supporting characters (Alfred, Lois, Wong, etc) that are regular characters that sometimes get to help out, but I don't think they quite make it to sidekick...or at least not when I was reading.
    Fundamentally agree here, plus with everyone who pointed out the history of teen sidekicks for characters from the 50s and earlier. Most of the sidekicks come from that era, or are extrapolations of that era (yes, most of the JLA and JSA members have some kind of teen sidekick, but of course they do--so all the teen sidekicks can go have adventures together to parallel the adult characters dynamics). Other than that, the occasional sidekick is brought in, but overall it is not the dominant dynamic seen in superhero comics (assistants, occasionally crimefighting non-spandexed allies, butlers, love interests, parents/parental figures, and so forth being additional character roles that comics can also use).

    Spider-Man, in particular, has a rich history of character types other than sidekicks to utilize. He has partnered with other in-their-own-right superheroes (Wolverine, Punisher, Deadpool, the Fantastic Four, The Avengers in total, etc.). He has two rotating love interests with which to interact (depending on who is alive in what continuity at the moment). He has many iconic villains and antagonists, both in his costumed life and in his mundane life (and in the case of J. Jonah Jameson, both). He has his Aunt, and, in memory, his Uncle. While none of these mean he couldn't have a sidekick, he certainly doesn't need one to facilitate any given story the writer wants to tell. Need someone to be kidnapped by the villain? Aunt May works fine. Need someone to butt heads with regarding crimefighting strategy? Let's say this week that can be the Hulk. Need someone from which to keep what's troubling you? Mary Jane or Gwen (or both). All of that is assuming we're talking about Peter Parker. Include the vast array of other Spider-Mans (Spider-Men?) in circulation, who each have their own nuances (and who occasionally fill out the role call for each other in terms of roles-filled) and you have even more variation on top of that.

    Beyond that, one of the reasons why I think Spider-Man doesn't have a 'lessor' character following them around is that oftentimes the writers want to have Spider-Man fill that role. While having the protagonist hero(es) deal with doubt, insecurity, superheroics/mundane world conflicts, and so forth, with Spider-Man they make it a ubiquitous, if not constant, issue. Spider-Man is a kid/treated like a kid, not respected, economically struggling, whatever else the writers want to make him struggle with. He's the the Richie Cunningham/Eric Foreman, the Xander of the BVS gang, the Bumblebee to the Autobots (or at least is 25-75% of the time). If someone is there looking up to him, you have to explain away that character for the issue where Spider-Man is brooding into his milkshake about how everyone keeps treating him like a kid.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Kid Flash is (or was, I have no idea on the current state of things in the actual comics). Supergirl and Wonder Girl, no, not really. Supergirl was more of a spin-off character, and Wonder Girl... is complicated, but was not actually a sidekick at any point as far as I'm aware.

    I'm far from an expert on the subject, but to my knowledge, aside from the gods-know-how-many Robins (and Batgirls, if they count, not sure on those), I don't think there's actually all that many sidekicks out there - at least not of any note. Kid Flash, Aqualad, Speedy, Bucky... and pretty much after that you're starting to get into obscure territory. Really, it feels like the fact that sidekicks are such a well-known aspect of superheroes probably largely springs out of how prominent Robin is as Batman's sidekick, as the prominence of any sidekicks past him/them diminishes rapidly.
    It's less of a thing now that it used to be, but when reading almost any of the old timey DC comics, they used that model. Green Lantern had the unfortunately named Pieface, for instance. Martian Manhunter had Miss Martian. Jimmy Olsen is definitely Superman's sidekick, odd as that whole period was.

    You could maybe argue that Falcon is also kind of Cap's sidekick? But it's less clear than with Bucky. I do agree that it's almost entirely a DC trend. And even for DC, some of the less iconic sidekicks have been sort of phased out.

    Spiderman doesn't really fit the wise mentor role, in most incarnations. Into the Spiderverse does kind of upend this, though, so if you're looking for that kind of teacher/student relationship in Spiderman stuff, that's probably the movie to watch.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Although I'm fairly certain that sidekicks don't have to dependent on our pupils of the hero I struggle to think of examples. Kato maybe? I'm not familiar enough with the Green Hornet to actually know.

    Heck, the best example I can think of off the top of my head is Jo Grant from the UNIT Era of Doctor Who, she's capable in her own right but still plays second fiddle to the Doctor in a way I'm not sure Liz Shaw or the earlier companions did (except Susan? She didn't get treated well by the writing). Plus there's the entire trope about the older and potentially wiser sidekick to the hero, as well as the more competent one (such as Kato).
    Kato, at least in the original show, can't really be called a "sidekick..." Becuase he was doing most of the work.

    To the pint that the Hong Kong Chinese Dub presented Kato as the main character and the Green Hornet as the sidekick.

    During the Green Hornet/Batman crossover Bruce Lee threw a fit when he was expected to lose a fight against Burt Ward's Robin for exactly that reason. He honestly didn't think that was realistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    There is a connection of some sort yes between Mary Jane and Red Sonja, possibly MJ is a descendant of Red Sonja, but it is stated as being a possession.
    1: Red Sonja lived 10,000 years ago: If she has living descendants, literally everyone in the world is her descendant.

    2: I find it highly unlikely that Sonja has any living descendants. Her supernaturally enhanced strength is sustained by a pact with her Goddess that requires that Sonja never have sex with a man unless that man is able to best her in a fight and based on how it's presented it's less "you're allowed to sleep with a man who's stronger than you" and more "you won't be penalized if you're overpowered and raped—That whole thing was eventually retconned away but not until Sonja stopped being a Marvel character.

    Reincarnation" is the only plausible method of connection. I am reasonably certain that it's explicitly stated that the reason she an be possessed by Sonja's memories is because she's Sonja reinarnated.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    If you want to see what it would be like if Spiderman had a sidekick, I'd recommend Into The Spiderverse if you haven't already seen it. Miles is the protagonist, but there's definitely a mentorship dynamic between him and Peter B Parker.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    If you want to see what it would be like if Spiderman had a sidekick, I'd recommend Into The Spiderverse if you haven't already seen it. Miles is the protagonist, but there's definitely a mentorship dynamic between him and Peter B Parker.
    I saw it. Good movie though.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2021-03-24 at 03:07 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian84 View Post
    Some of the classic DC sidekicks are Robin, Kid Flash, Speedy, and Aqualad. Arguably Wonder Girl as well, though I feel YMMV. I don't feel like Superboy or Supergirl ever really qualified for sidekick status in their narratives. I would argue Jimmy Olsen was more of a sidekick to Superman than either of those two.
    So, here's the thing about Wonder Girl: the "original" Wonder Girl was just younger Wonder Woman. Sort of like how "Super Boy" was originally just Superman but as a kid, except that instead of having her own comics just about younger Wonder Woman the way he did, Wonder Woman got to interact with her younger self due to time travel shenanigans. Because the Silver Age of comics was goofy that way.

    Years later, when Teen Titans was becoming a thing and writers were looking for characters to include on the team, one of them saw the cover art to one of those old Wonder Woman comics where she interacted with younger versions of herself and just assumed that the "Wonder Girl" there must be her sidekick, and decided to put her into Teen Titans. Thereby inadvertently creating a whole new character who had no actual backstory, because he just assumed that she already did, since sidekicks of that sort were that common at the time. And DC has since given her a bunch of different backstories that change depending on the whims of current writers. I don't think even those backstories ever included her being Diana's sidekick though - some apparently didn't even give her a connection to Diana herself, just to the Amazons.

    Glancing at Wikipedia, it looks like there is actually a second Wonder Girl I was unaware of who is identified as having been a sidekick of Wonder Woman's at some point, but that doesn't seem to have lasted long before she wound up more associated with Young Justice and the Teen Titans. And she's a much more recent character, first created in the mid 90s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    It's less of a thing now that it used to be, but when reading almost any of the old timey DC comics, they used that model. Green Lantern had the unfortunately named Pieface, for instance. Martian Manhunter had Miss Martian. Jimmy Olsen is definitely Superman's sidekick, odd as that whole period was.
    Okay, I knew that didn't sound right, and a quick glance at Wikipedia confirms it. Miss Martian was created for the Teen Titans in 2006. She was never Martian Manhunter's sidekick, and certainly didn't exist in old timey DC comics. She's obviously based on him, but that's it.
    Last edited by Zevox; 2021-03-24 at 05:04 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Okay, I knew that didn't sound right, and a quick glance at Wikipedia confirms it. Miss Martian was created for the Teen Titans in 2006. She was never Martian Manhunter's sidekick, and certainly didn't exist in old timey DC comics. She's obviously based on him, but that's it.
    Yup, fast-tracked and genderswapped, but totally the Kid Version.

    Still say that just because characters appear together and one is less than the other doesn't make them de facto sidekicks.

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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Reincarnation" is the only plausible method of connection. I am reasonably certain that it's explicitly stated that the reason she an be possessed by Sonja's memories is because she's Sonja reinarnated.
    I have the issues where it first happens. MJ picks up Sonja's sword and only then does she change. Just as Kulan Gath possess people who pick up his amulet.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Okay, I knew that didn't sound right, and a quick glance at Wikipedia confirms it. Miss Martian was created for the Teen Titans in 2006. She was never Martian Manhunter's sidekick, and certainly didn't exist in old timey DC comics. She's obviously based on him, but that's it.
    That's fair, differentiating sidekicks from...expy's? Is that the right term? But yeah, the junior versions don't always work with the adult version.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Sidekicks in comics originated in a possibly misguided belief that children (the target audience of comics in the 30s) would be more interested in the comic if there was a character in it to be their cypher. "Oh, Bucky is just like me!" "I could be Robin!"

    Characters created in the 60s were after the "everyone needs a sidekick" DC silver age. Not to say there weren't some that did have sidekicks, but they were the exception, not the rule.

    Spiderman, furthermore, started AS a teen hero. He was ALREADY the cypher for the target audience. "Oh, I could be Peter Parker" instead of just his sidekick.

    Sidekicks purpose most of the time it to provide a soundingboard for the hero to explain things to in place of the audience. Robin asks why the Riddler is doing something so Batman can explain it to him, and through him, the audience.

    Spiderman started in an era where characters has transitioned from talking outloud to people to having thought balloons to explain what's going on in their head to the audience. Even as that has gone out of vogue since the 90s, Spiderman has continued to buck the trend and still displays his thought balloons often.

    so, yeah, he doesn't have a sidekick because...

    1. The era he was created
    2. He serves as his own audience cypher
    3. He has other ways of expressing information

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Spider-Man has had a wannabe sidekick a time or two- the aforementioned Alpha, and Oliver Osnick, aka (er, sometimes) the Steel Spider. However, they were shortlived (sometimes literally), and usually got caught up in the 'Parker luck', becoming casualties of the universe's general hatred of Peter ever being happy, or even relatively stress free, for any length of time.

    There's a whole trope about the Hyper-Competent Sidekick, which Kato falls under, and in general, sidekicks come and go in terms of popularity. For example, Hawkeye has in recent years gained a sidekick, Hawkeye.

    There's also the odd subversion, like the Star-Spangled Kid and Stripesy (and later Stargirl and S.T.R.I.P.E.)- Stripesy/S.T.R.I.P.E. (same character, different time period) was something close to 20 years older than the hero he was ostensibly sidekicking for. In that case, it was partly because the Star-Spangled Kid had powers and Stripesy did not (at least that I can recall), and then later, Stargirl was the stepdaughter of Pat Dugan (Stripesy/S.T.R.I.P.E.) and found some of the Star-Spangled Kid's old super tech and just jumped into the hero thing with both feet, so poor Pat had to don powered armour (thus 'S.T.R.I.P.E.') in a somewhat futile attempt to keep her out of trouble, or at least not dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Glancing at Wikipedia, it looks like there is actually a second Wonder Girl I was unaware of who is identified as having been a sidekick of Wonder Woman's at some point, but that doesn't seem to have lasted long before she wound up more associated with Young Justice and the Teen Titans. And she's a much more recent character, first created in the mid 90s.
    Yeh, the second Wonder Girl (Cassie Sandsmark) was unquestionably Wonder Woman's sidekick, had her origins in Wondie's book and all- and, in a rather odd meta-twist, was a new version of an already-extant character, just like the original Wonder Girl.
    Last edited by TeChameleon; 2021-03-25 at 04:33 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    That's fair, differentiating sidekicks from...expy's? Is that the right term? But yeah, the junior versions don't always work with the adult version.
    I just tend to think of them as spin-offs, personally. And there's probably more of them around than there are actual sidekicks. Especially on the Marvel side of things. Spider-Man might never have had a Robin-esque sidekick, but there have been quite a few characters who were Spider-Man at one point or another, plus Spider-Women, alternate universe versions of him, etc.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I just tend to think of them as spin-offs, personally. And there's probably more of them around than there are actual sidekicks. Especially on the Marvel side of things. Spider-Man might never have had a Robin-esque sidekick, but there have been quite a few characters who were Spider-Man at one point or another, plus Spider-Women, alternate universe versions of him, etc.
    Hrm - I think of Juniors differently than either Expy or Spin-off...maybe Juniors and Spin-offs are flavors of the same category (Duplicated characters/power-sets, maybe?).

    Miss Martian seems like a potential Expy though...created to add into Teen Titans/Young Justice, but had she been introduced earlier rather than just dropping her into the teams then maybe she would have been a Junior.

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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordar View Post
    Hrm - I think of Juniors differently than either Expy or Spin-off...maybe Juniors and Spin-offs are flavors of the same category (Duplicated characters/power-sets, maybe?).

    Miss Martian seems like a potential Expy though...created to add into Teen Titans/Young Justice, but had she been introduced earlier rather than just dropping her into the teams then maybe she would have been a Junior.

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    I'd tend to think that Junior would be a more specific sub-category of spin-off, specifically for younger characters with similar power/skill sets to the original. Expy I'm not sure what you mean by, that term sounds more like it'd apply to another company's version of a character (which might less charitably, or if done poorly and lazily, be termed a rip-off) - i.e. Hyperion being a Marvel expy of Superman.
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Mm... if we're finessing the terminology that much, lesse...

    Junior: Younger character with similar origins/powerset to the main protagonist, and often has a similar look; if on a separate team, will often fill the same role as the protagonist does on their team
    Expy: Alternate version of a character with relatively minor differences, often fulfills the same role in-story. Typically, if an expy appears at the same company as the original character, it's because of a rights goof-up or simply forgetting the previous character existed (cf. Plastic Man and Elongated Man as an example of both at the same time)
    Spinoff: Characters with a looser connection to the main plot and characters- either a minor character moved to another story for a starring role, flashing back to major characters' childhood, or even simply sharing a setting with the main story. Usually distinguished by moving away from the main plot and characters into its own 'area'.

    So the first Wonder Girl was a Spinoff, Superboy would be a Junior, Supergirl would be more of a spinoff, Robin would be a Junior, Miss Martian would be a Junior, Batgirl, Huntress, Oracle, most of the Batfamily really, would be Spinoffs...

    Dunno if that's ideal, but it makes a sort of sense, anyways... I think...

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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Sidekicks are more DC's thing than Marvel's. Marvel has a lot of derivative/related characters to Spider-Man but they are often made full fledged heroes in their own right (Scarlet Spider, Spider-Woman, Arachnid, Mile Morales, Spider-Gwen, Silk Spider, etc.). Often when there is a "junior" version of a character, they are put into a Team book, rather than the main hero's book long term (i.e. the Young Avengers).
    Last edited by SunsetWaraxe; 2021-03-25 at 10:23 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    Mm... if we're finessing the terminology that much, lesse...

    Junior: Younger character with similar origins/powerset to the main protagonist, and often has a similar look; if on a separate team, will often fill the same role as the protagonist does on their team
    Expy: Alternate version of a character with relatively minor differences, often fulfills the same role in-story. Typically, if an expy appears at the same company as the original character, it's because of a rights goof-up or simply forgetting the previous character existed (cf. Plastic Man and Elongated Man as an example of both at the same time)
    Spinoff: Characters with a looser connection to the main plot and characters- either a minor character moved to another story for a starring role, flashing back to major characters' childhood, or even simply sharing a setting with the main story. Usually distinguished by moving away from the main plot and characters into its own 'area'.

    So the first Wonder Girl was a Spinoff, Superboy would be a Junior, Supergirl would be more of a spinoff, Robin would be a Junior, Miss Martian would be a Junior, Batgirl, Huntress, Oracle, most of the Batfamily really, would be Spinoffs...

    Dunno if that's ideal, but it makes a sort of sense, anyways... I think...
    I'd toss out that Damien Wayne and Jonathan Kent make the "Junior" terminology a bit difficult... they are literally "Juniors"... children of their heroic fathers with similar powersets/abilties. I'm also not too thrilled with using Plastic Man and Elongated Man as examples for Expys... while they do have similar "stretching" powers, there's a world of difference in them as characters, and degree of power (Plas is wisecracking immortal; Ralph Dibny is a private eye and family man with some stretchiness). You might as well say Mr. Fantastic and Ms. Marvel are the same character, since they have the same powers (and now picturing Reed Richards, middle-aged-man-with-children-and-60-degrees, in a high school story, being reacted to as if he were a Pakistani girl).

    Your overall structure is good... I'm just being picky.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I'd tend to think that Junior would be a more specific sub-category of spin-off, specifically for younger characters with similar power/skill sets to the original. Expy I'm not sure what you mean by, that term sounds more like it'd apply to another company's version of a character (which might less charitably, or if done poorly and lazily, be termed a rip-off) - i.e. Hyperion being a Marvel expy of Superman.
    I agree in principle. Someone else brought the idea of expy into the mix, and I thought of the characters discussed only Miss Martian could possibly fit (because she didn't get introduced as a Junior on her own, but rather was created to plug into a team very reminiscent of her creative progenitor's team).

    Still, I think there is a significant difference between Juniors and Spin-offs...which TeChameleon hits on below:

    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    Mm... if we're finessing the terminology that much, lesse...

    Junior: Younger character with similar origins/powerset to the main protagonist, and often has a similar look; if on a separate team, will often fill the same role as the protagonist does on their team
    Expy: Alternate version of a character with relatively minor differences, often fulfills the same role in-story. Typically, if an expy appears at the same company as the original character, it's because of a rights goof-up or simply forgetting the previous character existed (cf. Plastic Man and Elongated Man as an example of both at the same time)
    Spinoff: Characters with a looser connection to the main plot and characters- either a minor character moved to another story for a starring role, flashing back to major characters' childhood, or even simply sharing a setting with the main story. Usually distinguished by moving away from the main plot and characters into its own 'area'.

    So the first Wonder Girl was a Spinoff, Superboy would be a Junior, Supergirl would be more of a spinoff, Robin would be a Junior, Miss Martian would be a Junior, Batgirl, Huntress, Oracle, most of the Batfamily really, would be Spinoffs...

    Dunno if that's ideal, but it makes a sort of sense, anyways... I think...
    This fits nicely with my position.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowglass View Post
    Sidekicks in comics originated in a possibly misguided belief that children (the target audience of comics in the 30s) would be more interested in the comic if there was a character in it to be their cypher. "Oh, Bucky is just like me!" "I could be Robin!"
    For what it is worth, I strongly disagree with the underlined. Many of my comic reading friends had younger brothers who became part of the "hobby" by being Robin to their older brother's Batman, and took to the characters because of their identifiable "younger sibling" dynamic. Burt Ward did more for solidifying younger fans in Batman than Adam West did...because Batman, while cool, was too flawless, too unattainable...and too old. Teen Titans and Legion of Super Heroes both really resonated with younger readers in ways JLA didn't, though that was more for the young adolescents than the children.

    That was for my generation (the TV show was old then, but still adored...I'm not *that* old!), though - YMMV.

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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    I'd toss out that Damien Wayne and Jonathan Kent make the "Junior" terminology a bit difficult... they are literally "Juniors"... children of their heroic fathers with similar powersets/abilties. I'm also not too thrilled with using Plastic Man and Elongated Man as examples for Expys... while they do have similar "stretching" powers, there's a world of difference in them as characters, and degree of power (Plas is wisecracking immortal; Ralph Dibny is a private eye and family man with some stretchiness). You might as well say Mr. Fantastic and Ms. Marvel are the same character, since they have the same powers (and now picturing Reed Richards, middle-aged-man-with-children-and-60-degrees, in a high school story, being reacted to as if he were a Pakistani girl).

    Your overall structure is good... I'm just being picky.
    I'm... not entirely sure how Damien and Jon Kent being literal Juniors changes anything with the use of that term, honestly.

    I'm well aware that Plastic Man and Elongated Man have very little in common nowadays aside from stretchiness, but back in the day, well... I used Plastic Man and Elongated Man as an example of expies because I have found repeated mention (attributed to Julius Schwartz) that Elongated Man was only created because the EiC (the aforementioned Julie Schwartz) didn't realize that DC had bought the rights to Plastic Man in 1956. Haven't been able to find any primary sources on it, but it's a pretty widespread thing, so take that as you will.

    And picky is fine, heh- like I said, if we're finessing the terms that much, may as well nail 'em down as best we can.

    EDIT: Hrm- random thought, would 'Legacy' work better than 'Junior'? They tend to be the characters that would, in the future, take the place of their inspiration once the protagonist ages out of their role (or loses it in some other fashion). That's DC's own terminology as well, generally speaking, which may or may not be a good thing, depending on your point of view, I suppose.
    Last edited by TeChameleon; 2021-03-26 at 03:02 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    I'm... not entirely sure how Damien and Jon Kent being literal Juniors changes anything with the use of that term, honestly.

    I'm well aware that Plastic Man and Elongated Man have very little in common nowadays aside from stretchiness, but back in the day, well... I used Plastic Man and Elongated Man as an example of expies because I have found repeated mention (attributed to Julius Schwartz) that Elongated Man was only created because the EiC (the aforementioned Julie Schwartz) didn't realize that DC had bought the rights to Plastic Man in 1956. Haven't been able to find any primary sources on it, but it's a pretty widespread thing, so take that as you will.

    And picky is fine, heh- like I said, if we're finessing the terms that much, may as well nail 'em down as best we can.

    EDIT: Hrm- random thought, would 'Legacy' work better than 'Junior'? They tend to be the characters that would, in the future, take the place of their inspiration once the protagonist ages out of their role (or loses it in some other fashion). That's DC's own terminology as well, generally speaking, which may or may not be a good thing, depending on your point of view, I suppose.
    The Elongated/Plastic thing certainly rings true with me...have seen multiple articles in the past on the topic (often included in conversations about Cap Marvel/Shazam).

    Hrm...Legacy. I feel that more appropriate for Alan Scott > Hal Jordan or Jay Garrick > Barry Allen then I do Barry Allen > Wally West. Since (absent time shenanigans, so moving away from speedsters) both Green Arrow and Speedy and participate in the same story at the same time I think them too contemporary to really have Speedy be the legacy of Arrow.

    Legacy, to me, seems like it should be when the predecessor is out of the picture. However, going to the same school/joining the same fraternal order as a parent or sibling will get you the tag legacy, so what do I know...

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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    I don't know if you can find this book, but there was an issue where a bunch of, um, lesser-known characters competed to be Spider-Man's teammate. Due to their lack of skill and power they couldn't be his equal, but they really weren't sidekicks either. I refer to the hilarious The Amazing Spider-Man 266 from 1985.

    (For those of you born in this millennium, the 80s was a wondrous time where we didn't have computers but we did have black jeans, poofy hair, and otherwise fluorescent clothing.)

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    I guess I can understand why he doesn't have a sidekick, but with the Spiderverse, you'd think at least one alt would have one. Fingers crossed it will happen eventually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Splinterverse View Post
    I guess I can understand why he doesn't have a sidekick, but with the Spiderverse, you'd think at least one alt would have one. Fingers crossed it will happen eventually.
    I'm still compelled to ask why though. What sidekick dynamic could Peter have that we didn't get from Peter + Miles in ITS? Revisiting that dynamic for a sequel would be one thing, but coming up with some brand new sidekick would be something else entirely, and not effective imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    I'm surprised nobody mentioned a basic premise: Peter Parker is a kid, living with his aunt. His thing was always loneliness, followed by trying to figure out his place in the world. How could he mentor anyone?

    By time he was old enough, Gwen had been killed. He always felt responsibly for his uncles death, add in Gwen's death, so he tried to avoid endangering those he loved.

    Spiderman was never a candidate to really have a sidekick other than to be filler after so many years .
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  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    That's a good point.

    If you want Spider-Man with sidekicks, there are two things to look into.

    There's Spider-Ma'am, a version of Aunt May who noticed that PEter forgot his lunch that day, rushed over to the demonstration and she was the one bitter by the spider.

    In her universe, Peter makes her gadgets and both Peter and Uncle Ben have gadgets of their own so they can help her if need be.

    There's also Spider-Ben and Spider-Pete, from a world where Uncle Ben was bitten by the spider... When Peter was still a little kid. As an adolescent, Peter got sick and a blood transfusion form Uncle Ben gave him spider powers. It's it's Uncle Ben as a superhero and a young Peter as his sidekick...

    Though they've only really been in one story.
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  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: How Come Spider-Man Doesn't Have A Sidekick?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Knight View Post
    I'm surprised nobody mentioned a basic premise: Peter Parker is a kid, living with his aunt. His thing was always loneliness, followed by trying to figure out his place in the world. How could he mentor anyone?
    I think I touched on that pretty well:
    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Beyond that, one of the reasons why I think Spider-Man doesn't have a 'lessor' character following them around is that oftentimes the writers want to have Spider-Man fill that role. While having the protagonist hero(es) deal with doubt, insecurity, superheroics/mundane world conflicts, and so forth, with Spider-Man they make it a ubiquitous, if not constant, issue. Spider-Man is a kid/treated like a kid, not respected, economically struggling, whatever else the writers want to make him struggle with. He's the the Richie Cunningham/Eric Foreman, the Xander of the BVS gang, the Bumblebee to the Autobots (or at least is 25-75% of the time). If someone is there looking up to him, you have to explain away that character for the issue where Spider-Man is brooding into his milkshake about how everyone keeps treating him like a kid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    That's a good point.
    If you want Spider-Man with sidekicks, there are two things to look into.

    There's Spider-Ma'am, a version of Aunt May who noticed that PEter forgot his lunch that day, rushed over to the demonstration and she was the one bitter by the spider.

    In her universe, Peter makes her gadgets and both Peter and Uncle Ben have gadgets of their own so they can help her if need be.

    There's also Spider-Ben and Spider-Pete, from a world where Uncle Ben was bitten by the spider... When Peter was still a little kid. As an adolescent, Peter got sick and a blood transfusion form Uncle Ben gave him spider powers. It's it's Uncle Ben as a superhero and a young Peter as his sidekick...

    Though they've only really been in one story.
    Those both sound like interesting side stories/versions of the character. Given that we now have a whole Spider-Verse, it is too bad we haven't seen more of those specific versions.

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