Why Not Make a New Gate?

[Shadowknight12]

We don't have any indication of his actual level, do we? V left him when he was what, 6th level? So Aarindarius might only be 10th level.

It does necessitate that Aarindarius be strong enough to defeat a powerful, spellcasting dragon with an antimagic field, since that is the point of the IFCC pointing out that V does have a choice.

[danielxcutter]

It does necessitate that Aarindarius be strong enough to defeat a powerful, spellcasting dragon with an antimagic field, since that is the point of the IFCC pointing out that V does have a choice.

I think Rich said that Aarindarius one-shotting the ABD was an exaggeration(though he also said V thought Aarindarius would win).

As for the rift thing, maybe using four quiddities makes the ritual easier. And Thor said “we can handle the rest”; that implies that the gods might be the ones doing the sealing.

[woweedd]

It does necessitate that Aarindarius be strong enough to defeat a powerful, spellcasting dragon with an antimagic field, since that is the point of the IFCC pointing out that V does have a choice.

V wasn't entirely thinking sensibly. But, ya know what, fine: Let's say A is level 21. Low epic, powerful enough to take an ANcient Black Dragon without much issue. You'd still need a divine caster, and there is literally not a SINGLE epic-level divine caster, in the world, so far as we know.

[Shadowknight12]

V wasn't entirely thinking sensibly. But, ya know what, fine: Let's say A is level 21. Low epic, powerful enough to take an ANcient Black Dragon without much issue. You'd still need a divine caster, and there is literally not a SINGLE epic-level divine caster, in the world, so far as we know.

This seems to be the case, since the OOTS theorizes Redcloak might be the only cleric they know capable of casting 9th-level cleric spells.

We know the Godsmoot is made up of high level clerics and druids, since they need to be in order to cast Summon Proxy, but that doesn't mean Epic. For all we know, Summon Proxy could be 7th or 8th level (or even 9th, but these might be individuals the OOTS just isn't familiar with).

[sihnfahl]

And Thor said “we can handle the rest”; that implies that the gods might be the ones doing the sealing.

Well, yes. It requires actually working with the reality that they created themselves. So the casters make the 'stitches', and the gods do the stitching.

[danielxcutter]

Well, yes. It requires actually working with the reality that they created themselves. So the casters make the 'stitches', and the gods do the stitching.

I think using more quiddities makes it easier. If a 9th-level divine spell slot from one of TDO's clerics is enough for the divine aspect instead of an epic spellcaster, then it probably is.

[sihnfahl]

I think using more quiddities makes it easier. If a 9th-level divine spell slot from one of TDO's clerics is enough for the divine aspect instead of an epic spellcaster, then it probably is.

That wasn't the point of using the 4 quiddities, IIRC.

It was because normally they'd only be able to use 3, which the 4 quiddity snarl could tear through, given time. TDO's purple quiddity isn't something the snarl would be able to 'cut' through.

Edit: Yep.

[danielxcutter]

That wasn't the point of using the 4 quiddities, IIRC.

It was because normally they'd only be able to use 3, which the 4 quiddity snarl could tear through, given time. TDO's purple quiddity isn't something the snarl would be able to 'cut' through.

Edit: Yep.

No I get that, but normally the ritual to make a Gate needs an epic arcanist and an epic divine caster(otherwise Team Evil would have made another when Lirian's went boom). It sounds like the gods don't need that if they have some quiddity from TDO though.

[woweedd]

No I get that, but normally the ritual to make a Gate needs an epic arcanist and an epic divine caster(otherwise Team Evil would have made another when Lirian's went boom). It sounds like the gods don't need that if they have some quiddity from TDO though.

Point of order: No they wouldn't. Redcloak STILL isn't epic, he certainly wasn't then.

This seems to be the case, since the OOTS theorizes Redcloak might be the only cleric they know capable of casting 9th-level cleric spells.

We know the Godsmoot is made up of high level clerics and druids, since they need to be in order to cast Summon Proxy, but that doesn't mean Epic. For all we know, Summon Proxy could be 7th or 8th level (or even 9th, but these might be individuals the OOTS just isn't familiar with).

We know Durkon can cast it (or, at least, evil Durkon), which would imply it's not 9th level.

[sihnfahl]

No I get that, but normally the ritual to make a Gate needs an epic arcanist and an epic divine caster(otherwise Team Evil would have made another when Lirian's went boom). It sounds like the gods don't need that if they have some quiddity from TDO though.

Or the suggestion is that instead of doing the expected part of the ritual with Xykon, he changes the intent.

Xykon, after all, doesn't know exactly what the divine part of the spell does. And RC killed to keep that secret.

[brian 333]

I'm still not convinced that an Epic spellcaster is needed to seal a rift. Redcloak thought so, but he has certainly never tried, and, hey, there were four other gates to use at the time, so why bother?

Were the Scribblers epic before they started? Or was the quest to seal the rifts the adventure that got them to epic levels?

But assume Redcloak is right and the epic requirement is a real limit. Maybe Thor is certain that by the time they deal with Xykon and make Redcloak cooperate the OotS will be epic and completely capable of doing the deed. Who knows how many EXP are between them and their goal?

[Squire Doodad]

I'm still not convinced that an Epic spellcaster is needed to seal a rift. Redcloak thought so, but he has certainly never tried, and, hey, there were four other gates to use at the time, so why bother?

Were the Scribblers epic before they started? Or was the quest to seal the rifts the adventure that got them to epic levels?

But assume Redcloak is right and the epic requirement is a real limit. Maybe Thor is certain that by the time they deal with Xykon and make Redcloak cooperate the OotS will be epic and completely capable of doing the deed. Who knows how many EXP are between them and their goal?

Well, Monster Hollow is very EXP rich, so if they beat up Xykon and have Reddie on their side, Durkon could powerlevel his way to Epic in a few months, probably. Even better, if one of the High Priests is high level, dropping some sendings and teleports after the Godsmoot gets fixed could go ahead and save them some time (Durkon is only level 13 so it'd take a bit longer).

[Edhelras]

I'm not convinced that high- or epic level spellcasters are that rare in the OOTS-verse:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html

Although they might be hard to find, or even on other planes. It seems unlikely that OOTS, Team Evil, Lirian &Co, should be the only high-levels in the wide world. There are si many parts of the world we haven't seen yet. Doesn't mean that those epics are easy to come by, or that they're willing to participate, or can be trusted in handling the rifts.

[danielxcutter]

I'm not convinced that high- or epic level spellcasters are that rare in the OOTS-verse:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html

Although they might be hard to find, or even on other planes. It seems unlikely that OOTS, Team Evil, Lirian &Co, should be the only high-levels in the wide world. There are si many parts of the world we haven't seen yet. Doesn't mean that those epics are easy to come by, or that they're willing to participate, or can be trusted in handling the rifts.

That’s three over the course of like at least two millennia. That’s hardly common and V still got their ass pasted.

[Peelee]

It does necessitate that Aarindarius be strong enough to defeat a powerful, spellcasting dragon with an antimagic field, since that is the point of the IFCC pointing out that V does have a choice.

V didn't really have a choice; the plan they suggested would not have worked. V didn't need to have a choice, they only needed to believe they had a choice.

[arimareiji]

V didn't really have a choice; the plan they suggested would not have worked. V didn't need to have a choice, they only needed to believe they had a choice.

Weird coincidence, I was just looking at that one. Color me extremely skeptical that Qarr would actually be compelled to get himself killed in order to deliver V's head for Resurrection. Or that such a daisy chain of if-thens could be counted on as a sure thing, when V says they must not fail (understandably).

But also: The IFCC say not to worry about the casting time^*, since the dwarf has a scroll he's been saving for such an occasion. But even assuming the IFCC are telling the truth, their plan requires both Resurrection and Sending.
_{* - Immediately after talking about Sending, which V would know takes ten minutes. A couple dozen strips later, V reveals not knowing that the Resurrection Durkon is casting takes ten minutes (panel 4).}

[danielxcutter]

Weird coincidence, I was just looking at that one. Color me extremely skeptical that Qarr would actually be compelled to get himself killed in order to deliver V's head for Resurrection. Or that such a daisy chain of if-thens could be counted on as a sure thing, when V says they must not fail (understandably).

But also: The IFCC say not to worry about the casting time^*, since the dwarf has a scroll he's been saving for such an occasion. But even assuming the IFCC are telling the truth, their plan requires both Resurrection and Sending.
_{* - Immediately after talking about Sending, which V would know takes ten minutes. A couple dozen strips later, V reveals not knowing that the Resurrection Durkon is casting takes ten minutes (panel 4).}

That whole part was so they could say V didn't take it under duress, I think. Of course, while V's flaws did play a large part it's also pretty obvious that they're taking advantage of V's trance deprivation and general situation. I'm pretty sure that'd be illegal in most mortal courts.

Honestly I really do hope that the IFCC's schemes backfire spectacularly. Foiling their current scheme would obviously be desirable, but I don't think it'd feel satisfying for us, the readers, if they just shrugged and moved onto something else.

[Mike Havran]

Weird coincidence, I was just looking at that one. Color me extremely skeptical that Qarr would actually be compelled to get himself killed in order to deliver V's head for Resurrection. Or that such a daisy chain of if-thens could be counted on as a sure thing, when V says they must not fail (understandably).

Qarr's willingness is the least concern here, I think. If he just popped in, dropped V's head somewhere on the ship and bolted, chances of him being killed are basically non-existent.

The main problem with V's alternative was that Durkon had already left the ship and was currently somewhere above the ocean, air walking to Greysky.

But who cares if the alternative was sound or not. V was convinced it was and had to discard V's delusion about taking the power for noble reasons. That was the point of it and it worked.

[arimareiji]

That whole part was so they could say V didn't take it under duress, I think. Of course, while V's flaws did play a large part it's also pretty obvious that they're taking advantage of V's trance deprivation and general situation. I'm pretty sure that'd be illegal in most mortal courts.

Honestly I really do hope that the IFCC's schemes backfire spectacularly. Foiling their current scheme would obviously be desirable, but I don't think it'd feel satisfying for us, the readers, if they just shrugged and moved onto something else.

I'm dreadfully curious what their angle could be, myself. Like V, I'm baffled what they plan to gain^* -- but I'm sure they'd have the same response for me that they had for V (903:2).

* - Crack-headed thought that just occurred: Unless somehow they're actually agents/worshipers/admirers/whatever of the Snarl. We know that even the gods don't have the whole picture^†. And the IFCC's goals^†† seem weirdly in tune with the Snarl's origin (and psyche, if it has one).

† - 1150:6 Thor "Wait, what did he mean about a planet inside the rifts?"

Odin "?"

†† - 668:6 "We want conflict."

"Destructive unnecessary conflict."

---

Qarr's willingness is the least concern here, I think. If he just popped in, dropped V's head somewhere on the ship and bolted, chances of him being killed are basically non-existent.

The main problem with V's alternative was that Durkon had already left the ship and was currently somewhere above the ocean, air walking to Greysky.

But who cares if the alternative was sound or not. V was convinced it was and had to discard V's delusion about taking the power for noble reasons. That was the point of it and it worked.

Ah! Thank you, I figured there was probably a more solid reason but couldn't think of one.

I wonder, though, whether their forcing V to discard his delusion was really in their best interest. (I have no reason to doubt they thought so, but humans can do really horrific things when their delusions of nobility remain unpunctured. I doubt elves are much different.)

[Mike Havran]

I'm dreadfully curious what their angle could be, myself. Like V, I'm baffled what they plan to gain^* -- but I'm sure they'd have the same response for me that they had for V (903:2).

* - Crack-headed thought that just occurred: Unless somehow they're actually agents/worshipers/admirers/whatever of the Snarl. We know that even the gods don't have the whole picture^†. And the IFCC's goals^†† seem weirdly in tune with the Snarl's origin (and psyche, if it has one).

The IFCC apparently learned about the Gates from Sabine, so I think it's unlikely they are connected to Snarl. I believe they don't have a specific target in mind, just a general increase of Evil influence in the world (they seemed quite OK with the idea of Hel winning her plot)

I wonder, though, whether their forcing V to discard his delusion was really in their best interest. (I have no reason to doubt they thought so, but humans can do really horrific things when their delusions of nobility remain unpunctured. I doubt elves are much different.)

Yep, I also wonder about that. I guess they have some Faustian research to back their move up, so I defer to their experience with corrupting mortals

[arimareiji]

The IFCC apparently learned about the Gates from Sabine, so I think it's unlikely they are connected to Snarl. I believe they don't have a specific target in mind, just a general increase of Evil influence in the world (they seemed quite OK with the idea of Hel winning her plot)

Thank you, there are enough potential unexpected developments already without me inventing a bunch to worry about (that have already been eliminated). (^_~)

Yep, I also wonder about that. I guess they have some Faustian research to back their move up, so I defer to their experience with corrupting mortals

Indeed. And the more I thought about it after my post, the more I realized that 1) it might not be in their long-term best interest wrt V, but 2) pushing V into desperation and feeling like they had nothing left to lose was well in keeping with their immediate goal at the time.

[Shadowknight12]

V didn't really have a choice; the plan they suggested would not have worked. V didn't need to have a choice, they only needed to believe they had a choice.

If V didn't have a choice, then that severely undermines the entire point of V's decision to accept the bargain, and also Inkyrius's speech to V after the rescue. I don't think The Giant would have created a story where we're told a character's climactic decision is incredibly important and then we're supposed to realize that no, actually, not really, that was just what the character thought at the time.

[hroþila]

If V didn't had a choice, then that severely undermines the entire point of V's decision to accept the bargain, and also Inkyrius's speech to V after the rescue. I don't think The Giant would have created a story where we're told a character's climactic decision is incredibly important and then we're supposed to realize that no, actually, not really, that was just what the character thought at the time.

I don't think it matters. V only needed to believe they have a choice for a split second, just long enough to realize they didn't actually want a way out, they actually wanted that ultimate arcane power. Which is why they didn't let go when Inkyrius asked them to.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think it matters. V only needed to believe they have a choice for a split second, just long enough to realize they didn't actually want a way out, they actually wanted that ultimate arcane power. Which is why they didn't let go when Inkyrius asked them to.

I suppose that might have been the case for V, but it kinda feels a bit undercut when it's not only their family they had to worry about. Y'know, like the other half of the Order.

Would V have let the splices go right if they'd defeated Xykon? If they knew about the true cost I suspect they'd still have tried to do that, but they'd probably drop it soon afterwards.

[Peelee]

If V didn't have a choice, then that severely undermines the entire point of V's decision to accept the bargain, and also Inkyrius's speech to V after the rescue. I don't think The Giant would have created a story where we're told a character's climactic decision is incredibly important and then we're supposed to realize that no, actually, not really, that was just what the character thought at the time.

No it doesn't. Again, all that matters is that V believed they had a choice. Even if they found out later that they didn't, that doesn't invalidate what happened - that, when faced with what they thought was a choice, V chose wrong.

For example, let's say A and B are in a relationship. B chooses to cheat on A with C. However, V doesn't exist, and was just A all along. Even though there was no viable way in reality for B to cheat, B did not know that and B still chose to cheat.

It doesn't matter if the alternate choice would have worked (and, again, it would not. Durkon was not on the boat). The fiends did not need to present a viable alternative. All the fiends needed to do was prove to V that V couldn't claim noble intentions, which they succeeded in.

[dancrilis]

For example, let's say A and B are in a relationship. B chooses to cheat on A with C. However, V doesn't exist, and was just A all along. Even though there was no viable way in reality for B to cheat, B did not know that and B still chose to cheat.

V=C I take it.

[arimareiji]

V=C I take it.

Probably literally and functionally correct... but just to be pedantic, allegorically I think V is supposed to be B. (^_~)b

Count me as being glad Vaarsuvius is the only one we routinely represent with a letter, otherwise these convos would get really confusing really fast. (^_^)

[ziproot]

Probably literally and functionally correct... but just to be pedantic, allegorically I think V is supposed to be B. (^_~)b

Count me as being glad Vaarsuvius is the only one we routinely represent with a letter, otherwise these convos would get really confusing really fast. (^_^)

"Allegorically I think [Vaarsuvius] is supposed to be [Belkar]"

[arimareiji]

"Allegorically I think [Vaarsuvius] is supposed to be [Belkar]"

Indeed. (^_~)b

It got much worse in the "Poll: V or I?" thread... without thinking about it, I used "I" both as a first-person pronoun and an appellation for Inkyrius in the same sentence without even realizing it. (>_<)

[Robots]

The story isn't about creating a new gate. It's never been about that.