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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Emmit Svenson's Avatar

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    Default Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Xykon and Redcloak want to capture Serini's gate. The Order of the Stick want to stop him. There's a risk of the Snarl escaping or the whole world getting destroyed if the last gate is destroyed.

    Well, why not make a new gate? Serini's people managed it. Couldn't Team Evil build one around the rift in Gobbotopia, then use the ritual? Couldn't the Order of the Stick send a message to V's mentor and/or the church hierarchies and ask them to build some around the other three rifts? I mean, Xykon probably wouldn't think it was as much fun as the hunt, but if he has the patience to craft magic items, why not gates? The Order probably thinks there's not enough time, but why not make the attempt?

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    It took an epic-level wizard and druid working together to create the original gates. It's possible that neither Team Evil nor OOTS are capable of duplicating that feat, either because they aren't high enough level, because the spell needs specifically a wizard and a druid to cast it, or both.

    Also, it may be that the rifts have grown too large to be contained by the gates - we don't really know the technical details of how the gate creation process works.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    In Start of Darkness when Team Evil accidentally destroyed Lirian's Gate they decided they could not replace it themselves.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    In Start of Darkness when Team Evil accidentally destroyed Lirian's Gate they decided they could not replace it themselves.
    That was a long time ago, they've gained some levels since then. The OotS may be incapable, but they know some people stronger than themselves who probably could restore the gates, so asking why no-one is trying to do that seems reasonable to me.
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    That was a long time ago, they've gained some levels since then. The OotS may be incapable, but they know some people stronger than themselves who probably could restore the gates, so asking why no-one is trying to do that seems reasonable to me.
    Durkon knows the rifts can be sealed......

    Rifts would continue to form, of course, but they'd seal those up as well.

    From OOTS standpoint, though, they first have to deal with the fact that X+R are trying to get the existing gates. They can reinforce the existing gates after X+R are dealt with.

    (Oh, as for knowing epic-level folks? I wonder how hard it would be for them to convince those to come along when, you know, the world would be utterly destroyed otherwise...)

    As to why X+R aren't trying to build the gates? Well, why build new when you have another ready-made, and all you have to do is take it?

    There's also the formation of the gate itself. Specifically, the divine component. It TDO doesn't know the divine component that a God needs to implement to form a Gate, that's an issue. And since TDO isn't talking to the other Gods ... at all ...
    Last edited by sihnfahl; 2021-03-24 at 11:50 AM.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Xykon sat on his bony backside in Azure City torturing paladins and creating magic items for months rather than trying to discover how to make a new gate. Redcloak didn't do anything to try to create a new gate either. It seems safe to say that Team Evil believes creating a new gate is still beyond their abilities.

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    Dr.Zero's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Raw guess? X's team lacks an epic divine spell caster like Lirian (RC is getting close to epic only now).
    OOTS probably the same.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmit Svenson View Post
    Well, why not make a new gate?

    Guess what? The people who can do it - Dorukan and Lirian - are Soul Bound in a gem in Xykon's pocket. If an accord is not reached with the Snarl then I expect Durkon or Redcloak will resurrect them after Xykon's defeat and they will remake the gates.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Spoiler: From Start of Darkness
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    Guess what? The people who can do it - Dorukan and Lirian - are Soul Bound in a gem in Xykon's pocket.
    If an accord is not reached with the Snarl then I expect Durkon or Redcloak will resurrect them after Xykon's defeat and they will remake the gates.
    I think that they won't be resurrected, but will find a way to pass the information along in some other way. I think V's ioun stone will play a role.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Spoiler: SOD
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    Redcloak says they might be able to do it if they were both Epic - at the time we don't know if Xykon was even Epic (although it seems likely).

    Redcloak is still not Epic (as far as we know).

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Guess what? The people who can do it - Dorukan and Lirian - are Soul Bound in a gem in Xykon's pocket. If an accord is not reached with the Snarl then I expect Durkon or Redcloak will resurrect them after Xykon's defeat and they will remake the gates.
    Spoiler: possible SOD
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    I feel like they're unable to resurrected. Their bodies are destroyed or gone, so the only way to get them back is through True Resurrection. Durkon is nowhere near that level (17th) and the Order doesn't have 50000gp diamonds on hand.

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    It seems safe to say that Team Evil believes creating a new gate is still beyond their abilities.
    Or not in their interests, yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    I think that they won't be resurrected, but will find a way to pass the information along in some other way. I think V's ioun stone will play a role.
    Not a bad estimate. I'll drop three silver pieces on that betting square.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Guess what? The people who can do it - Dorukan and Lirian - are Soul Bound in a gem in Xykon's pocket. If an accord is not reached with the Snarl then I expect Durkon or Redcloak will resurrect them after Xykon's defeat and they will remake the gates.
    I've got a pretty strong suspicion that we will get a real fix for the Snarl, not just an attempt to seal it away again (with or without four color gates). And I certainly don't expect someone who is not a member of the order to be responsible to for solving this problem. Thor's spot-welding solution really doesn't seem like it will make for a satisfying conclusion. In any event, while the Dark One is a new factor, so too is the world in the rift, so we've got more to learn about the rifts and the snarls before we can identify the best way to destroy the rift.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Spoiler: possible SOD
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    I feel like they're unable to resurrected. Their bodies are destroyed or gone, so the only way to get them back is through True Resurrection. Durkon is nowhere near that level (17th) and the Order doesn't have 50000gp diamonds on hand.
    V is one level away from being able to cast Wish. And Redcloak can cast Miracle.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    The ritual for how to do so is lost, and Redcloak isn't actually epic-level. Also, this is a common thing, and it peeves me off: Whya re we assuming any of the High Priests, or, indeed, Andrius are epic-level? The High Priest of the Twelve Gods, during his fight scene with Redcloak, didn't use any spell above level 6, which would mean he's level 11, roughly: High, in OOTS where a spellcaster breaching level 10 is uncommon, but not epic. I think it's highly likely there are only three priests in the world who are even close to being able to cast the Gate ritual, those being Redcloak, Durkon, and Hilgyia. We have never seen an epic-level Divine spellcaster in the present-day of the comic, and all indication is that there are none. As for Aandrius, well, he's certainly high-level, but I doubt he's epic.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2021-04-01 at 07:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    The ritual for how to do so is lost, and Redcloak isn't actually epic-level. Also, this is a common thing, and it peeves me off: Whya re we assuming any of the High Priests, or, indeed, Andrius are epic-level? The High Priest of the Twelve Gods, during his fight scene with Redcloak, didn't use any spell above level 6, which would mean he's level 11, roughly: High, in OOTS where a spellcaster breaching level 10 is uncommon, but not epic. I think it's highly likely there are only three priests in the world who are even close to being able to cast the Gate ritual, those being Redcloak, Durkon, and Hilgyia. We have never seen an epic-level Divine spellcaster in the present-day of the comic, and all indication is that there are none. As for Aandrius, well, he's certainly high-level, but I doubt he's epic.
    About Aandrius I can reply for myself: what made me think he was epic was the idea V had about A defeating the ABD without even trying too hard.
    Afair the author explained it was a joke and that, moreover, V was so trance deprived that he believed a thing not entirely possible.

    Personally, being a fan of the death of the author, I don't like it too much, specially the second part: there was no reason for V, just because the lack of trance, to think that A had any superpower, if not complete hallucinations, but V didn't hallucinate, at least until a moment before, but he was just suffering aim penalties. He was indeed thinking quite clearly just a couple of pages before, when he analyzed Q offer to help, concluding Q would have been killed on sight by both the paladins and A. The story never suggested anything about such a deep mental inability to assess one's strength and it should not rely on an author's explanation or commentary.

    Said that, though, it means A won't appear in comic as epic, because logic loses to the fact the author does of his own story what he thinks is best.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    what made me think he was epic was the idea V had about A defeating the ABD without even trying too hard.
    It was the fiends idea that indicated that Aarindarius could intercede - they didn't say easily - Vaarsuvius already considered that if Qarr could deliver a message to them they could do that.

    The panel where Aarindarius kills the dragon is a visual gag (which also gets the idea that they could meaningly intercede across) but their is nothing in the comic that indicates that it is Vaarsuvius's firm belief on how the conflict would play out.

    It is also possibly worth nothing that Vaarsuvius felt that with more time they themselves likely had additional options - so it is not surprising that they considered a different wizard to be able to help in a similiar manner.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    The ritual for how to do so is lost, and Redcloak isn't actually epic-level. Also, this is a common thing, and it peeves me off: Whya re we assuming any of the High Priests, or, indeed, Andrius are epic-level? The High Priest of the Twelve Gods, during his fight scene with Redcloak, didn't use any spell above level 6, which would mean he's level 11, roughly: High, in OOTS where a spellcaster breaching level 10 is uncommon, but not epic. I think it's highly likely there are only three priests in the world who are even close to being able to cast the Gate ritual, those being Redcloak, Durkon, and Hilgyia. We have never seen an epic-level Divine spellcaster in the present-day of the comic, and all indication is that there are none. As for Aandrius, well, he's certainly high-level, but I doubt he's epic.
    The High Priest of the Twelve Gods was casting Resurrection in #410, Veldrina is high level for that and some High priests were spamming 7th level spells as well. So I think level 13 is not that uncommon, level 17 is.
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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    It was the fiends idea that indicated that Aarindarius could intercede - they didn't say easily - Vaarsuvius already considered that if Qarr could deliver a message to them they could do that.
    Actually, the first idea that came to V before the appearence of the fiends, was to ask Q to teleport to A's tower, to ask A's help.
    And V was thinking clearly enough to realize that, aside killing Q, the paladins and Durkon, instead in opposition of A, had no mean to stop the dragon, since they couldn't ever reach them.

    Moreover V never apparently doubted that A could dispatch the ABD (which, btw in itself, requires at least disnjunction, for the Anti Magic Field, and a lot of spellpower after that), he only choose the deal because he didn't want to ask for A's help.

    Again, finally, the fact that the image of A dispatching the ABD was a gag is known because the author pointed that out, not because the story.

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    One person mentioned True Resurrection. I'm pretty sure the author has said that True Res does not exist in his setting. Hence Nale being ashed really killed Nale forever.
    Also agree that Xykon is probably the only epic spellcaster we've seen 'alive'.

    ---

    More to the question, though, I'm leaning towards a narrative reason than an in-universe one. (Well, maybe a bit in-universe, due to Elan.)

    The gates could be sealed, in theory. It's probably within the Order's ability, in the sense that the Gods could seal it (or so I assume) and Durkon could (probably) reach Odin if he needed to. But I doubt the gods would, between their meeting being stalled indefinitely and just they don't seem very proactive. Team Evil cannot, in that they lack an epic divine caster and I'd assume the Dark One is ignorant about how to, or isn't talking to Redcloak.

    But it's really unsatisfying if the comic ends, or even has a good break point, where the meeting ends and the gods decide to reseal the current tears.

    I also think an infodump from the old epic spellcasters, from the gem, seems narratively unfit. Seems too reliant on Start of Darkness material. Maybe Serini is persuaded or somehow passes on or leaks info to the Order, but I doubt they do.

    I think the Snarl will be resolved, not sealed away. We have some mystery about what is really going on inside, with the planet there, and so I'm really guessing that none of the current plans will be what solves the day. Yeah, maybe the Dark One does work and play nice with the other gods by the end--that would be nice (and I can see it a few ways, with or without Redcloak's help), and goblins get some better status in the world. But I reckon it won't be a new 4-color seal that saves the day, but something the Order finds out and interacts with about what the Snarl really is.
    Last edited by JeenLeen; 2021-04-01 at 09:12 AM.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Something else to consider: Epic spells often require expenditure of considerable amounts of XP. XP which they might not have had.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Havran View Post
    The High Priest of the Twelve Gods was casting Resurrection in #410, Veldrina is high level for that and some High priests were spamming 7th level spells as well. So I think level 13 is not that uncommon, level 17 is.
    To be fair, I thought it was implied Vel would be casting from a scroll, but fair point. It's entriely possible there are THREE clerics in the world even close to epic level: Redcloak, Durkon, and Hilgyia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Actually, the first idea that came to V before the appearence of the fiends, was to ask Q to teleport to A's tower, to ask A's help.
    And V was thinking clearly enough to realize that, aside killing Q, the paladins and Durkon, instead in opposition of A, had no mean to stop the dragon, since they couldn't ever reach them.

    Moreover V never apparently doubted that A could dispatch the ABD (which, btw in itself, requires at least disnjunction, for the Anti Magic Field, and a lot of spellpower after that), he only choose the deal because he didn't want to ask for A's help.

    Again, finally, the fact that the image of A dispatching the ABD was a gag is known because the author pointed that out, not because the story.
    I mean, it's made pretty obvious that V wasn't thinking very clearly. They've been without sleep for, what, several days? I think Aandrius probably COULD have killed the dragon, but I highly doubt he was epic-level (illustrating him killing it without looking up was pretty clearly a gag, referencing another imagine spot showing doing the same to Qarr). Again, this is a world where 10th level spellcasters are pretty rare to start off with. I'd probably place, again, around V's current level.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2021-04-01 at 09:49 AM.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Making new, (and improved,) gates is exactly Thor's plan.

    What is the source of the Epic level spellcaster requirement? It seems that some posters are very convinced this is so, but Thor didn't say, "Get an epic divine and an epic arcane caster then get Redcloak to cast a ninth level spell." Thor seems to think they already have everything they need except the purple quiddity.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Making new, (and improved,) gates is exactly Thor's plan.

    What is the source of the Epic level spellcaster requirement? It seems that some posters are very convinced this is so, but Thor didn't say, "Get an epic divine and an epic arcane caster then get Redcloak to cast a ninth level spell." Thor seems to think they already have everything they need except the purple quiddity.
    Thor's plan is to seal/close the rifts not build new Gates.

    For the Epic Level comments:
    Spoiler: SOD
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    Redcloak mentions that he and Xykon could build a gate if they were both Epic level.

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    RedKnightGirl

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    d6 Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Oh I think I am a sick twisted thinking man.

    The ritual to move the snarl being studied by our undead loving friend (now long passed). Was only 1/2 of the ritual.

    The other 1/2 devine. In the knowledge of red cloak.

    What if the Dark One got it confused. Druid and cleric magic is similar both devine caster type.

    What if the ritual is to create a gate not move the snarl?

    I feel this is a crazy enough theory to be posted on this forum.
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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Maybe after enough grinding.
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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Thor's plan is to seal/close the rifts not build new Gates.

    For the Epic Level comments:
    Spoiler: SOD
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    Redcloak mentions that he and Xykon could build a gate if they were both Epic level.
    Then sealing the rifts is easier than building a gate?

    Then let's do that one.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Moreover V never apparently doubted that A could dispatch the ABD (which, btw in itself, requires at least disnjunction, for the Anti Magic Field, and a lot of spellpower after that), he only choose the deal because he didn't want to ask for A's help.
    None of this necessitates Aarindarius to be Epic level. Assuming V is sure they can cast 9th-level spells, that puts A at minimum 17th level. Still a long way off from 21st and beyond.

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    None of this necessitates Aarindarius to be Epic level. Assuming V is sure they can cast 9th-level spells, that puts A at minimum 17th level. Still a long way off from 21st and beyond.
    We don't have any indication of his actual level, do we? V left him when he was what, 6th level? So Aarindarius might only be 10th level.

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    Default Re: Why Not Make a New Gate?

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Then sealing the rifts is easier than building a gate?

    Then let's do that one.
    Thor's plan to close the rifts requires The Dark One's involvement - hense the Durkon quest with Redcloak.

    A standard seal is effectively an unlocked door - the gate is then the lock on the door.

    As a theory it is reasonable that the reason that the Snarl is not reaching out and killing people is because the seal is still in place (which Laurin broke in the western continent), Gobbotopia might be very lucky that Redcloak didn't throw in those humans.

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