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2021-03-25, 05:40 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
The question of adjusting the level adjustment for some monsters to make them more playable than what WotC advocates is as old as the world (or at least 5 years, according to this thread). And since the beginning of this trend, there have always been monsters that felt too weak even without LA for their RHD. These were noted as needing a "LA -0" in Inevitability's thread above. Then, there were obviously attempts to give them a proper rating, by trying to come up with an acceptable definition of negative LA.
To date, there were three major methods of calculating negative LA, each having one thread dedicated to it and having been abandoned since.
-Direct negative LA (DNLA) : This one is the most straightforward, and can be applied almost on the go to the monster. You just consider the ECL of the monster as lower than its number of RHD, then add class levels on top of it. This creates lots of problems as it allows for early entry in prestige classes and even pre-epic Epic Feats. However, its simplicity is still appealing, and it is the method that can be the best combined with other LA. To the extreme, we can tie epic feats to ECL instead of HD (in fact, this is even implied to be the RAW method in the Epic Level Handbook). And if the direct negative LA can only be used to buy off templates, or in low optimisation games, most problems do not arise at all, and this is the most accessible method. Method used in GreatWyrmGold's thread.
-Racial Hit Dice reduction (RHDR): You take a monster, you remove RHD without altering its abilities, and you play at lower level. Pretty simple too, even if recalculating all of the monster's variable can be tedious (as a reminder, (Su) and (Ext) abilities DC scale as RHD/2). This method solves the high-level shenanigans of the previous one, allowing for a rules friendly, somewhat lower negative LA than the DNLA, but you never get to play the whole monster ("What is a Tarrasque? A miserable pile of RHD, before everything else."), with all its abilities capped at their reduced RHD level, and your sorcerer blue dragon is stuck with mostly d6s instead of its original d12. This method favors low level monsters, where the full abilities and ability scores of a monster thought for higher level outperform what a PC could do, but falls short when those become irrelevant before class features. One way to offset these issues is to have every ability of the monster scale with its class level afterwards. You never have all the RHD of the creature, but it allows for a way to play characteristic of the monster, even at higher levels. Method used, with the abilities scaling, in Martixy's, then Blue Jay's thread.
-Partial Gestalt (PG): Finally, the method that allows for the strongest monster in terms of power per character HD and was also the first to be suggested is the partial gestalt. This one is very close to RHDR in that you start playing the monster with lower RHD, but you then take gestalt levels between the monster RHD and your class levels until you have the amount of gestalt levels to reach the number of the monster's RHD. (for example, a bugbear, with 3RHD was initially considered to be worth a partial gestalt LA of -1. In a ECL 3 game, a bugbear player would then have 2 normal humanoid RHD from the bugbear, then 1 gestalt between a humanoid level and whatever class he may want to play, probably barbarian in this case.). Considering how little RHD usually contribute to a build, this is roughly equivalent to RHDR with the abilities scaling with the level (notably Spell Resistance and SLA caster levels, which generally scales with RHD and not class levels). This method also keeps the difference in power between the various kinds of RHDThis method can be pretty challenging to implement, and can be pretty confusing when going up a level, but it keeps the whole flavour of a monster, allows for (almost) out-of-the-book play when the game starts with ECL larger than the monster's RHD and is generally the most rule friendly of the three. This method was used in Daedroth's thread.
For this thread, I will try to give a more comprehensive approach to the problem, and cover both the DNLA and RHDR methods. The RHDR and PG are two very similar methods, that will almost always give the same result. A monster played with PG gets marginally more advantages from its RHD, and a monster with RHDR gets more from its abilities when its number of HD goes above its natural number of RHD. However, the RHDR is overall simpler and saw more success in the past. Depending on your game, both are practically interchangeable.
Spoiler: Detailed description of scaling abilities with the RHDR method used here
The DC of (Ext) and (Su) abilities are calculated as 10+1/2 HD (not RHD) of the monster+relevant stat modifier+a flat modifier to DC to obtain the initial DC in the monster's stat sheet.
The caster level (or equivalent) of (Ext), SLA and (Su) is the total HD of the creature if it is not explicitly noted on the stat sheet. If it is noted, it doesn't scale.
The Spell Resistance, if it has one, of the creature scales as +1 per total HD.
The ability scores, size, and natural armor do not scale with total HD, even if the creature could be advanced to reach a larger size.
The number of HP, save bonuses and BAB are determined by the class the creature chooses, not its natural creature type.
All other direct mentions of a monster's number of RHD are replaced with total HD.
Considering the mess that balancing becomes at very high levels, I will not cover the DNLA method for epic or near-epic monsters. I also do not consider myself to be perfect in this regard, very far from it, and do not have much experience in ECL estimation. I then strongly encourage everybody willing to discuss and give counter-arguments to everything, as long as it doesn't stall the thread for an indefinite amount of time. Non-intelligent monsters like constructs or some undead will be considered awakened or have acquired an Intelligence score somehow.
The monsters shall be examined considering a low-optimisation game, since most of them are beatsticks anyway, and since playing a monster race is as much for the rule of cool than for the actual mechanical advantages of it. We try to make the monsters viable, not overpowered. The target is around tier 3 to 4, if that is applicable. When possible, we may try to imagine a build around the monster to better assess how it may evolve, with the most common class that fits the monster (mostly, rogue, ranger and barbarian for non-casters and sorcerer/cleric for caster monsters). This may lead to discrepancies considering the power difference between mundanes and casters, but considering we try to give a unified LA in a game where classes are so unbalanced, that seems good enough to me.
Spoiler: Covered Creatures from Monster Manual ILast edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2024-02-26 at 05:07 PM.
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2021-03-25, 05:40 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Extended covered creatures index
Spoiler: AnimalsMonster name Estimated RHD Reduction Estimated number of RHD Estimated DNLA Estimated ECL with DNLA Bear, Brown -1 5 -0 6 Bear, Polar -3 5 -1 7 Bison -3 2 -1 4 Boar -2 1+1 -1 2 Crocodile, Giant -2 5 -1 6 Riding dog -1 1+1 -0 2 Donkey -1 1 -1 1 Elephant -4 7 -2 9 Horse, Heavy -2 1+1 -1 2 Horse, Light -2 1+1 -1 2 Horse, Heavy War -2 2 -1 3 Horse, Light War -2 2 -1 3 Hyena -1 1+1 -0 2 Lizard - - -1 -1 Lizard, Monitor -2 1+1 -1 2 Manta Ray -3 1 -3 1 Mule -2 1+1 -1 2 Octopus, Giant -2 6 -1 7 Pony -1 1 -1 1 Pony, War -1 1 -1 1 Lizard - - -1 -1 Porpoise -1 1+1 -0 2 Rhinoceros -4 4 -2 6 Shark, Medium -2 1 -1 2 Shark, Large -4 3 - -1 Shark, Huge -6 3 - -1 Snake, Constrictor -2 1+1 -1 2 Snake, Giant Constrictor -7 4 -4 7 Snake, Medium Viper -1 1 -1 1 Snake, Large Viper -2 1 -1 2 Snake, Huge Viper -3 3 -2 4 Squid -1 2 -0 3 Squid, Giant -4 8 -2 10 Toad -0 1 -0 1 Weasel - - -1 -1 Whale, Baleen -5 7 -3 9 Whale, Cachalot -4 8 -2 10 Whale, Orca -4 5 -2 7 Wolf -1 1+1 -0 2
Spoiler: Vermin
Spoiler: Heroes of HorrorMonster name Estimated RHD Reduction Estimated number of RHD Estimated DNLA Estimated ECL with DNLA Bloodrot -9 1+1 -5 5 Boneleaf -1 6 -1 6 Corruption Eater -10 5 -6 9 Taint Elemental, Large -1 7 -1 7 Taint Elemental, Huge -7 9 -3 13 Taint Elemental, Greater -10 10 -5 15 Taint Elemental, Elder -13 11 -8 16 Dusk Giant, Least -1 5 -0 6 Dusk Giant, Lesser -3 9 -2 10 Dusk Giant, Greater -5 13 -3 15 Phantasmal Slayer -4 12 -2 14
Spoiler: Monster Manual III
Spoiler: Expanded Psionics HandbookMonster name Estimated RHD Reduction Estimated number of RHD Estimated DNLA Estimated ECL with DNLA Astral Construct, level 3 -0 3 -0 3 Astral Construct, level 4 -1 4 -1 4 Astral Construct, level 5 -2 5 -2 5 Astral Construct, level 6 -5 5 -4 6 Astral Construct, level 7 -6 7 -5 8 Astral Construct, level 8 -8 8 -6 10 Astral Construct, level 9 -10 9 -7 12 Brain Mole -0 1 -0 1 Caller in Darkness -2 9 -2 9 Crysmal -3 3 -2 4 Folugub -3 1+1 -2 2 Neothelid -11 14 -8 17 Psion-Killer -5 10 -3 12 Temporal Filcher -2 6 -1 7 Thought Eater -2 1+1 -1 2 Thought Slayer -5 9 -4 10 Udoroot -4 2 -3 3 Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2024-02-26 at 04:51 PM.
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2021-03-25, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Spoiler: Fiend FolioMonster name Estimated RHD Reduction Estimated number of RHD Estimated DNLA Estimated ECL with DNLA Abyssal Ghoul -7 9 -5 11 Ahuizotl -1 6 -1 6 Aoa Droplet -0 3 -0 3 Aoa Sphere -11 4 -6 9 Aquatic Ooze, Bloodbloater -2 1 -2 0 Aquatic Ooze, Flotsam -1 1+1 -1 1 Aquatic Ooze, Reekmurk -1 4 -1 4 Bhut -2 6 -1 7 Blackstone Gigant -21 11 -15 17 Bloodthorn -1 2 -0 3 Bonespear -10 5 -7 8 Canomorph Haraknin -2 2 -1 3 Caryatid Column -2 4 -1 5 Century Worm -33 7 -26 14 Chwidencha -8 4 -5 7 Crawling Head -11 17 -7 21 Crypt Thing -3 3 -2 4 Skulvyn -1 3 -0 4 Dire Rhinoceros -10 7 -8 9 Disenchanter -8 8 -5 11 Ethereal Ooze -9 3 -7 5 Fensir Rakka -5 7 -3 9 Fhorge -5 7 -3 9 Flame Snake, Lesser -4 4 -2 6 Flame Snake, Greater -7 10 -5 12 Formian Observer -1 8 -1 8 Fossergrim -1 4 -1 4 Gathra -2 7 -1 8 Bog Giant -2 6 -1 7 Golem, Blood Golem of Hextor -3 7 -2 8 Golem, Brain -7 5 -5 7 Golem, Demonflesh -11 13 -7 14 Golem, Hellfire -10 10 -7 13 Hullathoin -6 10 -4 12 Indricothere -9 7 -6 10 Kelp Angler -4 7 -3 8 Kelpie -4 6 -3 7 Kuldurath -4 5 -3 6 Living Holocaust -8 7 -6 9 Lucent Worm -14 8 -10 12 Maulgoth -4 16 -3 17 Megatherium -6 7 -4 9 Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2024-02-26 at 04:39 PM.
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2021-03-25, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)Halfling in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
This thread is great! Looking forward to how it evolves.
I think -13 DNLA for the Colossal object would be fair. I agree its hard to judge, personally I only think epic Spellcasting is OP enough to be worried about epic feat cheese, so a noncaster is safe from that. Bunch of epic feats but no nonepic class features seems balanced at ECL 19. You're a beatstick, so if your opponents can't nosell your abilites your numbers are strong.
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2021-03-25, 09:27 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Here's to this thread's success! I like the idea, though I think including the 2 methods could get confusing. Good luck!
I disagree, I think it should be much steeper. Even with 4 epic feats, this thing would get annihilated in an ECL 19 environment. Somewhere around -18-20 makes more sense IMO. Using feats and having class access is a game changer, of course, but there's still a good reason the colossal object has a CR of 10.
Originally Posted by emulord
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2021-03-25, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)Halfling in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
@Beni
Can I suggest we have a table at the start of the thread for every monster evaluated with both types of LA so far? In the normal LA threads it helps easily find entries of appropriate CR for campaigns.
@H_H_F_F
Sure a normal animated colossal object is CR 10, but Magical Items can make a large difference. An AO is more of a puzzle encounter than a numbers encounter at the larger sizes. A more intelligently played one supported by a party would be stronger and more versatile. My range was -13 to -16, and I was leaning on the conservative side, expecting a player to be a reasonably optimized form like adamantine chariot, airship, or something with hands. Obviously a stone cube or windmill would be far weaker and -20 would be very fair.
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2021-03-25, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
As seems to be tradition in this kind of thread, we'll start with the animated objects, from the Large ("I am a table, please don't eat on me.") to the Colossal ("Have you ever tried to wrestle a house?").
Construct immunities are cool, but they far from make up for the inexistent abilities and the very unimpressive ability scores for their size (24 strength on a Gargantuan creature and it is its only bonus, really?).
Overall pretty bland entry.
Large, 4RHD, 16 Str: Might have made a decent Barbarian at 3 RHD with constitution and without the awful hit to Cha. As it is, I believe it deserves no more than 2 RHD, maybe even 1. For the DLA, I'd think a DLA-1 for a final ECL of 3 is good, as GreatWyrmGold chose too.
Huge, 8RHD, 20 Str: bigger, but not that much stronger. I'd say the increased Str and size make for two more useable RHD than the Large one, since you become a very good grappler, which makes 4 RHD. At this level, you can start to take prestige classes reserved for level 6 martial characters, which would amount to ECL 6. You are very much behind in class features compared to a barbarian, but you are closer to getting another feat, and you are tougher to kill, so I'd say ECL 6 and DLA-2.
Gargantuan, 16RHD, 24 Str: The numbers keep growing, but that's all. Huge to Gargantuan is worse than Large to Huge, so only one more RHD, 5 RHD, because as good a grappler as you are, that won't do everything without anything else, and DLA-7 (the +3 ECL compared to Huge is because of the sheer number of feats it gets, and its natural reach).
Colossal, 32 RHD, 28 Str: Same reasoning, 6 RHD for the Colossal... thing.
What do you think of this format, and of these Adjustment?Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2024-02-26 at 03:15 PM.
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2021-03-25, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Good idea! It should be done. Originally Posted by emulord
I'm not sure an animated humanoid statue would get as many magic item placements as an humanoid. I'm not sure an item placement is linked to the function of the body part, or just to having a body part where it fits. For example, having winged boots might not function if you have appendices but you use wheels to move around, same with magic glasses, hats and masks, since animated objects do not have eyes, or a head with a brain, technically. Originally Posted by emulord
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2021-03-26, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
(Bad) Dire Animals
Omitting the multiple critters that have already been covered in previous threads, notably Martixy's one, we get directly to dire animals ("You want a monster? Look outside, pick the first moving thing, then make it bigger."). And as their name implies, the are in dire need of a negative LA.
Dire Bat, 4 RHD: Well, this one isn't that bad, despite the animal RHD. Good all-around physical ability and Wis boost, despite the hit to Int and Cha, plus flight, blindsense and natural armor. The attack isn't that great, but it would make an acceptable rogue if they had just one less RHD. I think 3 RHD is fine (even though the bat is Medium). I'm not comfortable giving it a DNLA, though. I believe DLA-0 is good, if quite weak.
Dire Bear, 12 RHD: the great and mighty, 12 animal RHD, behemoth. Good Strength, but clearly not enough to compare to a barbarian of the same number of HD. I could compare it to a Dire Wolverine, which got +0 in the original thread for 5 RHD. The bear's chassis is clearly stronger (with +8 Str, somewhat compensated by the wolverine's Rage, and improved grab) but not incredibly so. I would give it a strong 6 RHD, for 1 RHD more than the wolverine. Lower than full BAB make the RHD not that valuable, so I would elect for a DLA-3.
Dire Boar, 7 RHD: Worse attack than a raging Wolverine and doesn't have multiple natural attacks, ferocity is something, but it won't change your world. I'd suggest 4 RHD in RHDR, or DLA-1.
Dire Lion, 8 RHD: Pounce is, as always, extremely good, and you always appreciate it with those multiple attacks. But the attacks themselves are not that good, and it doesn't have much else for it. Still a better chassis than the wolverine, in my opinion. 6 RHD or DLA-1.
Dire Shark, 18 RHD: What have we got here... Weaker Str than the lion for more than twice the HD, one single natural attack that is not even that good, a lackluster grappling specialization, and a water dependency that will cripple most parties. I would say 4 RHD and DLA-8 but I am open to suggestion, I have trouble envisioning such a difference between HD and ECL.
Dire Tiger, 16 RHD: As Inevitability stated, this is a dire lion with more HD. Not even one size bigger. Giving it 7 RHD, one higher than the lion, seems good to me, it doesn't deserve more. And I'd guess DLA-6 but I'm not sure what one could do with this HD.
Dire Wolf, 6 RHD: Like the boar, pretty neat Str, but only one lackluster bite attack and an unimpressive ability on it. Same verdict, 4 RHD and DLA-1.
What do you guys think about these? I'm not sure who would play a giant shark even like that, since it would need permanent Breathe Air and Flying items to even be able to function on land, not even counting the sharknado level of panic it would create, but heh, at least I think it is almost balanced for combat.Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2024-02-26 at 03:16 PM.
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2021-03-27, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Air elementals (Large to Elder)
Skipping dragons, because those are a whole other can-o'worms (I would like some advice on how to tackle them, by the way. Organize them by color, or by age category? Most of them are pretty similar to each other, anyway), we have Air Elementals!
"They see me whirling, they hating..." Air is the only element where the Small Elemental is listed as LA+1 on Inevitability's thread, and with a good reason: flying is good; (perfect) flying is better; 100 ft (perfect) flying is best. (Seriously, there is very little that reaches these speeds, and even less at this maneuverability; air elementals have, afaik, the second best non-epic flight speed behind the ghaele) Plus they get Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats, which synergizes well with their very good Dexterity bonus.
However, it lacks a bit (too?) much in the (Su) and (Ext) department. All they have is whirlwind, which only becomes interesting at a level where everybody starts flying, and is able to escape it, and a measly bonus against other flying creatures. That makes the Air Elementals look more and more like a simple beatstick as it increases in RHD but not enough in stats, and becomes irrelevant for its level.
Large, 8 RHD: You just got your second slam attack, with Large reach and a welcome DR 5/- (Why is it untyped? Why even have DR? How? The answer is blowing in the wind), but your stats are almost identical to the Medium elemental. The Air Elemental is still quite good at this level, and I think reducing to 7 RHD will let it be an effective Rogue without being too much of a liability (with Evasion, this thing will never take any damage from anything that allows Reflex). It really isn't far from being equivalent to a character of its level, but I think it deserves at least DLA-1.
Huge, 16 RHD: This is where it all goes down. This size category offers litterally nothing beyond mediocre stat boosts. That's all. +8 total bonus. 9 RHD make its ECL two higher than the previous one, and I'm not even sure that's warranted (you can whirlwind Large creatures now, which amounts to something at ECL 8, even though it might not matter much soon after). With its whole RHD, I'd tend to say DLA-3. I'm reluctant to go that much lower for a creature that, all in all, has still one or two tricks up its sleeve.
Greater, 21 RHD, Huge: They just noticed that doubling the amount of RHD each rank would make the biggest Elementals way over what even a ninth level spell should summon. But that just makes this transition even more lackluster. Only bonus of note is the doubling of the DR to 10/-. 10 RHD
Elder, 24 RHD, Huge: And we finish with the Greater Elemental! Ah, it's Elder? I didn't see the difference. 11 RHD, just to have the final ECL different from the Greater one, but the differences between the two are so slim that I would accept 10 RHD as well.
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Earth Elementals (Medium to Elder)
They may not fly, but they can still rock you like a hurricane! Next, we have the Earth Elementals. They were basically created as the opposite of the Air ones. Where an Air Elemental is fast, Dex-based, flying, light (yes, the Elementals weight are listed in the monster manual), and have a combat-based special ability, the Earth Elementals are the slowest, most Str-centered, heaviest and most earthbound of all Elementals, and have an utility-based special ability. So, where the Air is probably the strongest element, Earth is unsurprisingly the weakest, with maybe Water.
They all have an interesting ability in Earth Glide, if they want to scout ahead, and with their abilities, I'm guessing a TWF ranger would most fit their style (I consider Earth Glide also applies to its items and weapons, because that would be pitiful otherwise), if you put a few points in Wisdom. Or just a fighter, if you want that sweet sweet 27 AC in full plate.
Medium, 4 RHD: We start low, because even there, it is not worth taking. The natural armor is very good for a 4 RHD monster, and if the stat flaws are almost as big as the boosts, the flaws affect scores that you don't care about anyway and the bonus are to Str and Con, which are the only ones you'll ever use if you want to play Earth Elementals. Is it worth 4 weak RHD? Probably not. 2 would be much too strong, though, since it is still much better than its Small counterpart. Let's go with a strong 3 RHD. The 4th RHD gives you 1 BAB and 1 Fortitude, which, with the usual prestige class/skill points it offers, is I think enough to push it over the edge. DLA-0 for the Medium Elemental.
Large, 8 RHD: The story repeats, the Large elemental is the most powerful compared to the previous version. 2 slams dealing almost twice as much damage as the Medium ones, and with reach against medium and small creatures, +8 ability scores, including a very interesting +2 Int that will probably let it choose prestige classes without being too restricted, and damage reduction which is still very good at this level. I suggest 6 RHD here, but it will maybe be a bit weak. For the DLA, Elemental hit dice are not that good. ECL 7 and DLA-1 seems in order here.
Huge, 16 RHD: A huge disppointment. The natural armor that was interesting in lower size categories almost doesn't scale, and seems miserable at this level. You still get stats boosts and a size increase is good on a martial character. More than one ECL more than the Large one, though? I don't think so. 7 RHD is in order because gaining a size category should amount to something, even more so with the Push ability of Elementals, as weak as it is. For the direct level adjustment, we're at a level where even taking 4 Fighter levels would be more valuable than 8 RHD of this, since you get one more feat and the Elemental really doesn't give much. DLA-5 for the big rock, leaning to -6.
Greater, 21 RHD: Still a big rock, but more respected by its peers. The DR doubles compared to the previous category, and that alone probably makes it playable with 8 RHD, if maybe a bit weak. And they get a whopping +2 Str! Yes, that's all.
Elder, 24 RHD: The oldest of big rocks. It has now the intelligence of a normal human! Only getting subpar stat boosts doesn't even net it one more ECL in my opinion. I believe in 8 RHD for the Elder Earth Elemental.
Phew, these ones were bad. What do you think of these LA? What would you give Earth Elementals to make them viable or even interesting to play?
Are we getting singular monsters any time soon instead of posts with a whole group? Do not get your hopes up, we still have two elements to cover.Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2024-02-26 at 03:14 PM.
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2021-03-27, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Oh, hey. I got a mention for something I did a long time ago.
TBH, I never meant to abandon that thread... it just sort of happened. Every once in a while I think about resurrecting it, but these days I'm not playing, so that might be some ways off.
I do wonder why you chose Partial Gestalt, given that it's merely a more complicated version of RHDR.
(Definitely not a fan of NLA, since it messes with a fundamental assumption of the game.)
My attempt at non-awful fumble rules
Arcane Archer minimal fix (maybe not so minimal anymore)
Reworking the Complete Adventurer Tempest PrC
Expanding the Pathfinder Called Shots system
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2021-03-28, 02:37 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Yes, thank you for having started your thread, it was a good inspiration and showed that this kind of thread could survive for a long time and be interesting on its own. Originally Posted by martixy
I chose PG over RHDR because I just wanted to point out that the special abilities of the monster should continue to scale as it gains class levels, at least until their "natural" power, which isn't that clear with RHDR. That should help offset the fact that monster special abilities always tend to fall out of relevance before class features. Plus, I wanted to still give relevance to the difference between the various kinds of RHD. Really, the difference is so slim that you could use RHDR instead of PG without losing anything. Do you think I should just write it as being RHDR and pointing out that all abilities scale?
About DNLA, I know it isn't the best and messes with a lot of things, but there were a lot of discussions about what Negative LA method was the best, so I just wanted to include both main methods, in order for people to be able to just disregard one of them if they want. Plus, the Incarnate Construct method, where it only offsets templates LA, doesn't have any of its problems, and can be used more directly, so in a way, DNLA is the RAW method.Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-03-28 at 05:06 AM.
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
Nice find! Have a cookie!
Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters
Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-03-28, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Fire Elementals (Large to Elder)
"Eine mächtige Flamme entsteht aus einem winzigen Funken", said Dante Alighieri. Even a mighty flame is born of a tiny spark. Well, as always in D&D, you'd rather play the tiny spark than the mighty flame, if it meant less RHD.
Next, we have the Fire Elementals, and when you look at their stat sheets, you know that they are not a passive kind. Every single one of their abilities are damage-oriented, and most are linked to its slam attack, which inflicts bonus fire damage and threatens to light something on fire with DC that scales very strangely with HD. The slam itself, however, is pretty bad on Small and Medium, but the damage gets way better starting on the Large Elemental. And they are fast bois. 50 ft on ground is very good for a Small creature, but quickly gets worse as the size increases.
Let's go with LA:
Large, 8 RHD: 4d6+2 is actually really good damage on the slam attack, more than twice the previous size category! And since it is a natural attack, you could stack Power Attack (x1) and Weapon Finesse. An Elemental with 18 Str and 28 Dex (14 and 18 before racial) and 7 RHD will have +13 to-hit and 4d6+4=18. A raging half-orc barbarian of level 7 will have 27 Str (+17 to-hit and 2d6+12=19). That is better, especially with Power Attack, but Fire Elementals get fire immunity, a bit more health, a bit more reach, a bit more speed, and the nice unexplained Elemental DR, plus their ability to Burn things that starts to have a nice DC. I think 7 RHD are good here, if a bit weak, and DLA-1, since the Elemental RHD doesn't do much good and the slam attack will probably be less and less useful later on.
Huge, 16 RHD: Going from Medium to Large was an incredible boost for the Fire Elemental, increasing its slam attack two-fold (double the damage, and double the number of slams) and giving it DR. Going from Large to Huge gives it +10 stats and nothing else. Disappointing. If we go by the rules that (Su) abilities DC scales as 1/2 the RHD, it even has a lower DC that its Large counterpart! I have to say going as low as 8 RHD is necessary here. And Elemental RHD with no scaling ability are pretty bad too, and even its speed is now low-tier for its size category. I think DLA-6 is fair. A shame, since the Large form seemed so much better than the Earth Elemental. Natural armor makers a lot of difference.
Greater, 21 RHD: No new ability, the DR increase is nice, and surprisingly the natural armor doubles here. Anyway, same as always, give it one more RHD and call it a day. 9 RHD
Elder, 24 RHD: And the last one, better than the previous but really not that much. I think 9 RHD is still okay, like for the greater.
The Fire Elementals were interesting. As long as direct damage was still relevant, and really scaled with their level, their stats and nice damage were good, but they fell from grace faster than a blown out candle. That's what you get when all your special abilities rely on your slam natural attack.
What do you think of these LA? Do not hesitate to discuss. Next time, the Water Elementals. They are sure to be a weird bunch.
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Water Elementals (Medium to Elder)
"The seaweed is always greener in somebody else's lake, You wanna play as some water, but that is a big mistake"
Finally, Water Elementals. Take the Air Elementals, remove everything that made them good, and you have Water Elementals. Incredible flight speed? Make that pretty good swim speed. A pretty good whirlwind? What if you could only use it underwater. Two bonus feats? Just get rid of those will you. A small bonus against flying creature? Change that into a huge malus against everything that isn't underwater!
Water Elementals are, with Earth, the toughest elementals, with the most amount of HP and natural armor, but the worst Elementals for combat, and they have even less utility. They are Str-centered, but have a -4 to hit and damage against basically everything. They can be as useful as Air Elementals when underwater, which prevents me from dubbing them the worst element directly. But since most campaigns are in majority on land, they will almost always be a liability, even if we disregard the fact that they normally can't move more than 180 ft away from the puddle of water from which they were conjured.
Medium, 4 RHD: I'm not even sure the Small one deserved +0 on Inevitability's thread. And the increase in stats is pretty pitiful from Small to Medium. (I do not count the vortex since the number of underwater fight in D&D is very low, and you almost always want to lure water creatures on land when you have to fight them). Still, you get a very good natural armor. That's why I think 3 RHD is acceptable here, making them not playable at the same level as their Small counterpart, but not far. DLA-1 also seems good. The low skill points and weak slam attacks make the Elemental RHD really bad here.
Large, 8 RHD: Like for all elements, this is the best improvement. DR 5/-, double the slam damage (still very weak compared to what the Fire can do, or even efficient Large weapons but you take what you can), and the ability to take Medium characters in your vortex, if you somehow can make anything accept to fight a Water Elemental in the water. That's also where the first characteristic of the Water Elementals shine the most: they have lots of health, not that they can do much with it. Can it justify 5 RHD? I'm not sure. I'd say 4 RHD, leaning to 5 RHD or even 6 if the campaign is at least partially on the sea. And with awful HD, DLA-3 seems in order. They can take a martial prestige class one level earlier than normal races, but what are they gonna do with it? Attack at -4? Note that this is the first size where its Str bonus balances its malus against terrestrial and flying creatures.
Huge, 16 RHD: The Large one had the better improvement between size categories, the Huge one has then the worst. No DR, a bit of physical stats is nice, but not enough, and an underwater vortex when people start to be able to fly. 5 RHD, nobody would play this with more. It pains me, but they really are bad. They might do decent grapplers/bull rushers at this size, if you pay a feat (note that Earth didn't have to), but except if they can drag somebody to a nearby puddle to pummel them afterwards, they won't do much more. Oh yeah, and they finally get a movement speed boost. They now walk at a 30 ft speed, or as much as an average creature of two size categories smaller. DLA-6? This one is tricky. Giving it too many HD may make it open for a lot of cheese, but without cheese, it probably won't do much, even in an ECL 10 environment. Also the natural armor stopped scaling, for whatever reason, and will stay the same for the two other forms.
Greater, 21 RHD: Same as other elementals, good DR, nothing else. Those are a lot of stat boosts all in all, but the monster seems to have no direction at all. I suggest 6 RHD for the Greater Water Elemental. The ECL is so low that having a bit of DR goes a long way.
Elder, 24 RHD: And the last one. This is painful to watch. The most impressive number on the stat sheet is the 24,000 lbs that it weighs. 7 RHD is very low, but I think that is necessary.
And with that, we concluded the Elemental streak. Those were a lot of numbers. What do you think about these ones? Would you ever play a Water Elemental?
Next time, we'll do the Ettercap, a very bizarre creature that will be the first individual post on this thread.Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2024-02-26 at 03:13 PM.
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Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-03-28, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
😄 Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku
I knew I should have said something about this. In my original thread we actually discussed this in the latter pages. My personal solution was to just let abilities scale with class levels too, which I was using in my game* at the time and found no problems with.
Since you're explicitly soliciting my opinion: While PG is not strictly equivalent (RHD progression stops at some point), I do strongly lean towards RHDR+abilities scale with class too.
* Gestalt game even, so it was not the mechanic that was the problem.
P.S.
In the interest of fair evaluation, with class scaling you do lose the (likely marginal) bonuses of gestalting the RHD's BAB, saves and HD, but gain abilities that scale even beyond the original RHD. Game design wise, it's only the net positive of reduced complexity.Really, the difference is so slim that you could use RHDR instead of PG without losing anything.Last edited by martixy; 2021-03-28 at 09:54 PM.
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2021-03-29, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
I guess you are right, and it would serve as a bit of uniformization with your previous thread. I will change the posts already in place to make it RHDR.
What do you think about the LAs themselves? Am I generally biased in one direction or the other?Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-03-30 at 02:08 AM.
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Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-03-30, 03:07 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
The Ettercap. The owlbear of the arachnid order. One of the numerous "let's put something's head on another thing's body and add a third thing's claws" creatures of the monster manual. I like it. I really do. It has this sort of cartoony parodic feel to it. I would like to play one. So let's make it playable. Because right now, it definitely isn't.
The Ettercap has a little bit of everything and a whole lot of nothing.
- +4 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +4 Wis, -2 Cha (total+10)
- Claws and Bite attacks with poison on the latter
- a web attack from a relative distance (50 ft)
- a bonus on Hide, Spot, Craft (Trapmaking) and a climb speed
- a whopping +1 natural armor
It's to the point that I don't really know what to make of it. A barbarian/Fighter would not use the advantage on Dex for its attack and probably never use it's best attack, the web. A ranged ranger would try to be at a distance while the ettercap is designed to be at mid-distance. I think a rogue would be best here. You get to use Sneak Attack with all three natural attacks if the opponent is flanked, or you can sneak attack from a distance if safer and still be in range for your web if necessary. You couldn't really go to assassin with that hit to Int andit reduces your high number of skill points, but you choose what you can. You could still go Shadow Thief without much problem.
With that in mind, what number of aberration RHD are worth these kinds of bonuses. I think 2 RHD is good. You get some, you lose some compared to full rogue, and I believe that makes for a balanced character, maybe even slightly above average with the plethora of attacks. You would still be feat-starved, of course, but slightly less so than a TWF rogue. 3 RHD would be pretty bad, though. With its whole RHD, I suggest DLA-2. This gives the Ettercap the equivalent of full BAB for its RHD and its various abilities should offset the delaying of class features.
What do you think about the spider/bird/lizard thing? Would you play it with 2 RHD? Next time, we will have the two-headed Ettin, who promises to be hard to rate.Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-04-04 at 02:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-03-31, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Can an ettin knit a net? Not naturally, considering each head controls one arm and they have -4 Int. However, they have a very good Str bonus, and having two heads lets them ignore any penalty due to Two-Weapon Fighting. That is good, granted, but still arguably worse than having Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and a full BAB. Doubling a breath weapon is neat, and can lead to funny shenanigans with Dragonfire adepts' breath effects. Of course, it hardly justifies 10 RHD.
In the end, the most interesting thing you could do with two heads is trying to take the Multivoice feat and cast two spells per standard action. But the prereqs are pretty ridiculous (two feats that litterally give you nothing since you have Superior Two-Weapon Fighting) and you would have a hard time filling the ability score requirements (15 Int when you start with -4 is rough). And anyway, if you're going to play a spellcaster, you're better off with the multiheaded template (2 RHD and +2 LA) and a race with decent mental scores.
In the end, Ettins are just the posterboy of a multiheaded ogre (seriously, look at their stats, they are so similar that I do not see how that can be incidental). With 6 RHD more. Ogres were really underpowered for their number of RHD, and Multiheaded really does not help the ettin much. I suggest4 RHDfor the ettin, putting it at the same number as the official ogre, and the same ECL as a twin-headed character. Being nothing more than a beatstick really hurts the big guy. With the NDLA method, I thinkDLA-3is fair. It is still a beatstick, and class levels of those are somehow less valuable than caster ones, and less unbalanced compared to Racial Hit Dice. Plus, having high Str and natural armor is not negligible either.
Edit: Wielding two one-handed weapons, with a Str bonus on top of it may make the ettin do really hefty damage, even compared to a barbarian of level 4 or 5. Sure, it loses in versatility and BAB, but pure destructive power can go a long way at these levels. 5 RHD and DLA-2 might be more balanced.
What do you think of the ettin? Just a poor execution for an otherwise interesting and original monster? Or a failed concept doomed from the start to be replaced by the more general template?
And for next time, we stay in the theme of creatures that have one more mouth than they should, with the shrieker fungus!Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-05-18 at 02:39 PM.
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters
Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-03-31, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Love the thread.
And Wendigos. 120ft (perfect) fly speed. Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku
Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2021-03-31 at 06:09 PM.
Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
Optimization Trophies
Looking for a finished webcomic to read, or want to recommend one to others? Check out my Completed Webcomics You'd Recommend II thread!
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2021-04-01, 04:21 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Glad to hear it! I will try to continue posting those, so don't hesitate to come visit! Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco
Good catch on the wendigo, I totally forgot about this oneResurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters
Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-04-01, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Behold, ladies and gentlemen, the one monster dubbed the weakest in D&D 3.5, and with good reasons. It is a happy coincidence that this one came up today, because this creature is an absolute joke.
Where to even begin? The Shrieker Fungus is, in all the worst senses of the word, awful. Not "CW Samuraï without Imperious Command" awful. More like "seemingly designed so that whatever you try, this will never ever make a decent character" awful. And that is, majorly, because of its stats. Yes, it lacks three of them. No Strength, no Dexterity, and no Intelligence. And if you think that is bad, I hope to show you that it is way worse than that.
Spoiler: How to get a mindFirst, let's talk about the intelligence. Usually, in this kind of threads, we kinda handwave mindlessness as "it somehow got a score". But this one is good enough that I want to do it by the book. There are two main ways to get Intelligence: Awakening, and templates. But Awaken inexplicably only works on trees in 3.5e, not other plants. And I may be lenient, but mushrooms are definitely not trees (they should not even be Plants, but let's skip this discussion). So, templates it is. Fiendish is the general go-to in this case. But with the shrieker? You are a 5 ft-tall mushroom with no movement speed. Considering the picture, and the official page for mushroom density (yes this exists), I'd say you might weigh up to 100 to 200 kg. If your template doesn't give you a way to move around, nobody is going to carry you around. I only found one that gave both intelligence and a movement speed to plants: Flesh Plant, a disgusting amalgam of guts, intestines and bones in the vague semblance of a plant (Advanced Bestiary, pg. 115).
So, to be able to play as something else that a litteral plant, you have to give up the one interest of this creature, Plant immunities, and become an Aberration. And for that you get a 10 ft movement speed and a score of 1 in Intelligence. One point. Only marginally better than the 3 from Fiendish, but that still hurts. However, if we go by RAW, you still cannot move your body (no Strength, no Dexterity). The template gives you a movement speed anyway, so you are probably slowly sliding on the ground without moving a muscle, which in itself should give you a bonus on Intimidation, if playing that abomination of a creature wasn't already asserting dominance enough.
Spoiler: What class is there left for a mushroomNow that that's out of the way, let's get on the interesting part. I said that Shriekers are unplayable. And it is because no Strength and no Dexterity means no attack rolls. You are not just bad at attacking, because even being bad at something is very good for the shrieker, you just can't. Which means absolutely no martial class, from monk to warblade, is going to cut it. (I think that it is what it means to have neither of those, since you automatically fail any Str or Dex check. But if I am confused on the rules, please correct me. It would still be extremely bad, but not nearly as much as it is now)
But there are still casters! No. No Strength means no Somatic component, no wielding an arcane or divine focus that you couldn't carry anyway, and no using material components. Clerics and Wizards are not for you either.
Spoiler: Why I didn't include druidsTo be fair, a druid is not that bad, of course, because druids can do anything. You basically play as your animal companion till lv 5, that can carry you around without much problem, then you take Natural Spell, and you spend the rest of your career as whatever broken animal you want. You have -10 Wisdom. Yeah, so what? A druid without spells is still much stronger than most classes. But if you are here, you are here to play a shrieker, not play something else with a huge penalty to mental stats. Also the reason why I didn't include phylactery of change. That would give you physical stats, but these completely defeat the point of trying to assign LA.
What remains? Psionic classes could fit. They don't need somatic components, or focus. However, the shrieker still has a -10 in Intelligence. That is as low as it gets. Even putting all your leveling points in Intelligence, a Shrieker Psion 20 rolling an 18 has 13 in Intelligence. Yep. You are manifesting worse than most level 5 psionic characters. And getting items to boost intelligence will not only get you so far, but you can't even carry them without a Strength score!! Getting custom ioun stones may be achievable, but so expensive that your character would not manifest anything before 10th level or so.
Then we have the incarnate. Most of its abilities are based of Constitution, so that's good... But remember that all soulmelds must be worn on a useable magic item slot (if you do not bind them, you can wear a magic item on top of it, but you still need the slot). You are a mushroom! No arms, no legs, no head for the crown, no face for the eyes, no chest for the vest, no shoulder and no hands. You may argue for the neck and waist, but that's all. Yeah, melding is out.
The warlocks are known for being able to function with 3s across the board, so surely they would fit, right? Weeeell... No attack roll means no Eldritch Blast (and no glaivelock) until you take Eldritch line at level 11! And -4 Cha modifier means your invocations with saves will probably never work on anything. It is hard to play a class when two-third of your class features just plain don't work. But you still have other invocations, right? Well, no. Invocations require somatic components, and since you have no Dex, this is also out. Also warlock really don't care much about Constitution. Also, also, even if we handwaved the somatic requirement with some sort of custom feat, a lot of invocations deal with getting you bonus to some skills. Which just won't help you since you don't have the Intelligence to get any skill decently high. There is basically nothing the warlock should do that a shrieker warlock can do. You can't even play a class known to require next to nothing from the character to be played efficiently. That is a testament to the horror that is playing a shrieker.
Binders also rely a lot on Strength and Dexterity, since they are more martial than casters per se.
So what? Are shriekers doomed to only advance by templates and never use a class level effectively? I don't think so. Because if you can shriek, then you may speak. And if you can speak, then you can Truespeak.
No, I'm not even kidding. What do useless HD give you? Maximum skill ranks. What do most utterances not need? Attack rolls and Saves. I believe the optimal class for the shrieker fungus is Truenamer. And when the best class a character can take is Truenamer with a racial -10 to Intelligence, you know there is a big, big problem. (You could say that an ardent with -8 Wis who can't manifest until level 4 would still outperform a Truenamer with only two item slots. And you're probably right. But because the difference between a shrieker and a normal race ardent is way higher than the same for Truenamer, and also because it is still April Fools, we'll go for Truenamer) Boosting a skill is way easier than boosting DC, and even having -5 to all Truespeak check does not amount to a lot when you should have +40 at least to really play a Truenamer. (if you roll at least 16, you have 6 Int, and with 4+int/lv, this is enough to keep Truespeak maxed out and have another skill for prereqs purposes) At least, lots of means to boost Truespeak do not come from items, or not slot items, so there's that. Of course, ask if you can use the Book of Words fix, but even without, you should do a not that much more terrible job than a normal Truenamer.
Obligatory "I have no mouth and I must scream" joke, because that's what you will be doing most of the time if you try playing this.
Spoiler: Verdict: Level AdjustmentSo, we have a mushroom whose best chance in life is to learn the language of the universe to fight its crippling (get it?) depression. The same way NDLA loses its purpose when the creature has too many RHD, RHDR loses its meaning here. Obviously, even at 0 RHD, the shrieker will still be far, far from playable.
If the shrieker was LA+0 with no RHD, what LA would be a human? +10 in all mental stats, -2 Con, and a difficult to rate but definitely primordial ability to hit stuff with other stuff (without even getting to the ability to cast spells) and to hide without being forced to scream your lungs out, plus a bonus feat. I think it would warrant LA+3 for the human, maybe even +4. So, let's go with DLA-3 if the shrieker had no RHD. I'm not even sure a Shrieker Truenamer 4 would be balanced with an ECL 1 party, even an unoptimized one, but I think -4 is a bit too much, even for its numerous issues. But the Shrieker has RHD too! Even 2 of them! They give you some skill rank limit for your Truespeak, which is pretty good, but aberration RHD give you so few skill points that having two aberration HD before your first class level (which eats the x4 skill points at first level) actually makes you lose skill points! (unless you have at least 12 Intelligence, which the shrieker will probably never reach since it will die to absolutely anything way before its level 16 ability boost) And gaining BAB doesn't do much when you litterally can't use it. In the end, I think ECL -3 is still in order, for a final DLA-5 for the Shrieker, even if Flesh Plant is free. Use at least 3 of these LA for templates, if you want to reduce the groaning of your DM and the throwing of books to acceptable levels. Anyway, playing a campaign with a Truenamer Shrieker is probably the biggest power move that any D&D player could ever accomplish, so just for that, it has merit.
This one... was a doozy. I know my final decision really doesn't make much sense in terms of rules and of gameplay, but hey, that's what I think is best. If one of you can make a DM accept that you play this during of of their games, then please, please tell me how it went. There was so, so much to this thing. Whenever you think you found something that it could half-decently do, there was another part of its statsheet that shut it down. I initially thought it could be a pretty good Spellfire wielder, but then I realized that spellfire blasts need a ranged touch attack, and that you'd be forced to be an out-of-combat healbot, and that even that wasn't useful since Flesh Plant gives you fast healing 2.
Welp, see you next time, everybody, for the over-RHD'd-but-still-way-better-than-the-shrieker giants!Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-07-25 at 05:42 AM.
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Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-04-01, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)Halfling in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
The shrieker being a creature and not a trap or environmental hazard is the biggest April fools joke that WoTC ever pulled. Good analysis on truenamer being the class to compare.
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2021-04-03, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Giants (all of them)
"O, it is excellent
To have a giant's strength; but it is tyrannous
To use it like a giant."
Why even develop when Shakespeare says it all?
Giants are strong bois, but they generally lack any way to use it apart from "me hit you hard". They can explicitly wield weapons and are proficient with martial weapons, medium armors and shields. That is pretty good. Let's see how much their stats are worth.
Cloud, 17 RHD: Don't get swayed by its Oversized Weapon quality. Even if it applies to other weapons than the morningstar, you'll notice that the Cloud Giant wields his normally one-handed morningstar two-handed, which implies he only ignores the -2 penalty for using a one-handed weapon one size larger than you as a two-handed weapon, not that he could use, say, a Gargantuan greatsword. Apart from that, he can throw rocks (which is literally worse than just using a composite longbow adapted to his strength), use SLA that could have been useful around 10 ECL earlier (level 1 and 2 spells, really?), and has two utterly ridiculous slam attacks (1d6. That is as much as just unarmed attack.). So, the only thing interesting is the Huge +24 Str/+12 Con, and no penalty on other stats. That is enough for 10 RHD, I guess, but it will be a pretty boring character to play. At least letting him have its whole RHD will give it some skills, and he hits hard enough that DLA-4 seems good (barring epic feats shenanigans, of course), giving it BAB equal to its ECL.
Fire, 15 RHD: It says that they heat their rocks on fire geyser, which implies they should not be fought anywhere except in a volcano, where nigh on everything should already be immune to fire. Anyway, removing 2d6 damages on their already very mediocre Rock-Throwing will not affect the LA at all, so feel free to interpret the rules as you wish. Compared to the Cloud, -4 Str and Dex (first malus, yeah!), -2 everywhere else, no useless SLA, but an interesting fire immunity. I suggest 8 RHD, since those are still pretty hefty ability hits, but generally, it plays as the Cloud. I think DLA-4 is not that bad, since you will be bulky enough to survive one or two hits even in an ECL 11 environment and do a bit of work and a lot of hitting.
Frost, 14 RHD: Litterally the same as Fire, with 2 less Strength, 1 more natural armor, and the less useful immunity to Frost damage with Vulnerability to Fire. I don't think that warrants any change. 8 RHD and DLA-4.
Hill, 12 RHD: Theoretically the weakest of them all, but with the lowest amount of RHD. Nothing to say about it, I suggest 6 RHD and DLA-3. I would say DLA-2, but it has a really bad Int.
Stone, 14 RHD: Why is the giant made of litteral stone the most dextrous of them all? Even more than the cloud one? No one will ever know. The overall number of stats is the same as the Frost giant, which means it has more AC, but hits comparatively softer. It doesn't dislike the absence of the Frost type that much, so I will go with the same 8 RHD/DLA-4.
Elder Stone Giant, 14 RHD: You get some SLA 1/day (only that often? Come on!) related to earth, which can be interesting in more social situations (they will really fall short in combat), but overall it's just a Stone Giant with more Charisma. I think the differences are too slim to warrant a change of LA, so 8 RHD/DLA-4.
Storm, 19 RHD: Finally, some good freaking SLA! Control Weather is infamous, and Chain Lightning can help him do some damage against lots of minions. Finally, Freedom of Movement is incredible for a martial type. And these stats are nothing short of stellar. If only he had full BAB, he might even have gotten +0 LA (probably not, tho, 19 RHD is a lot). As it is, I think 12 RHD should do the trick. And getting caster levels on its SLA means his RHD are not as mediocre as others of its type. I think I would allow DLA-4, but I will go for DLA-3 for now. If anybody has suggestions, I would like to hear them.
What do you think about these LA? When I reread the stat sheets, I didn't expect the giants to be so... small. Most of them are only Large, I was expecting Huge for Hill and Gargantuan for Storm and Cloud. Anyway, see you next time, for "what if Shenzi decided to take up arms against Mufasa", the gnoll!Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-04-18 at 01:50 PM.
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Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-04-04, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
And today, we have the gnoll! When I see this creature, I'm always reminded of my first contact with D&D. Not the Tabletop RPG, mind you. No, the european board game, where it was one of the very few enemies the players could encounter. Ah, how nostalgia can make you remember some silly things way longer than they are worth.
In the actual game, however, I don't think I have ever used or seen one used for any purpose. And it is for a good reason. Humanoid RHD are very, very bad, and you don't want 2 of them.
Apart from their RHD, Gnolls seem to be designed to be orcs ++. Compared to water orcs, generally considered the best orc subrace, they have 2 more Wis, +1 natural armor and no light sensitivity. The gnoll's favored class is worse and they have less support (they can't take orc-only feats and prestige classes), but in low-op, I would always take a 0 RHD gnoll over any other PHB race for a martial character. I would rather have a comparatively weaker monster race compared to a "normal" one, because playing a monster race should be more exceptional than the norm in D&D, so I suggest 1 RHD for the gnoll, overriding the rule stating that a 1 RHD monster can have its RHD replaced by the first class level. However, the humanoid RHD are weak enough that gaining one of them doesn't really change the ECL. DLA-1 seems good to me.
The gnoll is a very straightforward monster. The next ones, however, will be much more tricky to rate. See you next time for the golems.Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-04-04 at 02:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-04-04, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
It may be more elegant to make it 1 RHD, +1 LA, with the RHD getting replaced as normal. Slightly weaker in games without LA buy-off; slightly stronger in games with. Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku
Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
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2021-04-04, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
The thing is, the gnoll is already much weaker than most +1LA races, who have almost all some trick beyond just stat increases. Look at Goliath for a comparable example. Goliath loses Dex (which he generally doesn't need) instead of charisma and the all-important intelligence, and they have a nice toy with their Powerful Build. I was hoping having a RHD instead of a LA would help the gnoll shine a little bit more. I didn't take into account buyoff, tho, which wouldn't make the LA version better than other LA+1, but would make the 1 RHD way worse. Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco
I could always add a note for the LA, but I'm not sure it is the best course of action.Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-04-08 at 06:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-04-05, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
Golems
Golems... A weird bunch. They have always struck me as an easy "piss off my players" button. They are just immune to so many things that half the party just stays there watching as the one or two martials wittle down the golem's HP slowly. Even more slowly with the DR/adamantine, when it's not DR/Adamantine and bludgeoning. And on the other hand, they really don't do much. You can literally kite almost any of them around a room and they wouldn't do anything to you until they inevitably go out of control and start breaking the stuff they are supposed to be guarding. A very frustrating fight most of the time.
On the other hand, with the intelligence of a PC and some class levels, they can make very effective fighters and other close combat-centered classes. And their defensive capabilities are nothing less than top-notch. Note however that all golems are explicitly incapable of speaking, so caster is not for them. We don't really care, that is far from their preferred role, but it will be annoying to make plans with the party.
Clay, 11 RHD: How did they expect a lv 10 party to overcome this DR again? Really, the clay golem is good all-around. +14 Str, +14 natural armor, and a built-in Haste 1/day? Plus you have a way to heal, even while being a construct. Sign me in, even with -2 Dex (you won't be intimidating much with -10 Cha, tho). I believe it is worth at least 8 RHD, and probably even 9 RHD (if we get rid of Berserk, of course). That's how good immunity to magic is for anyone, and especially for martials. With its whole RHD, DLA-1 seems good to me. It is good enough to not need much more.
Flesh, 9 RHD: Aaaaaand this one is bad. The loss of 4 natural armor and Str, and DR 5 instead of 10 hurt, but what really pushes the flesh golem over the edge is its reaction to magic. Any fire or frost spell affects it as Slow, which means it will probably fight more often than not with the same number of actions as a zombie, if the opponent knows a bit about golems. Still nice to be immune to most things, but it is far from the almost complete invulnerability of the Clay. 5 RHD, maybe? I could see 6, but I think it would be a bit on the weaker side. And since gaining construct RHD will not help it that much, DLA-2.
Iron, 18 RHD: Yep, that's just a Clay golem with everything cranked to 11 (except the DR, which goes back to only /Adamantine). +22 Str and natural armor (have you noticed that the bonus is always the same for golems?), DR 15, and a weird breath attack as a free action, that might be an open door for cheese. No Haste, tho. Very far from being worth 7 RHD more than the Clay, but 2 should make for an interesting tank. 11 RHD, and DLA-4.
Stone, 14 RHD: The only golem with a built-in way to bypass its magic immunity. Anyway, its differences with Clay are pretty slim. It Slows people instead of Hasting itself, which is probably worse. Stats are mid-way from Clay to Iron, the number of RHD shall be as well. 10 RHD and DLA-2 for the stone golem.
Greater Stone, 42 RHD: I'm sorry, what? Why give it 42 RHD if it was to give it basically the same stats as the stone? Why not even increase the Damage Reduction, or make it /Epic? With the adjustment due to HD, the DC of its Slow ability is actually the same as the normal stone. This is just a stone golem with the ability bonuses due to being one size bigger, but with 28 RHD more, for some reason. Its only appeal is that you only have to be 14th level to create it, the same as normal stone. Which means a 14th level wizard can craft a golem 2 CR above them, if it has enough money.
Compared to the iron golem, it has +4 Str, -1 natural armor (the Greater Stone even breaks the "same bonus for Str and NA" rule! It really doesn't respect anything!), and 5 less DR. Plus the Slow effect of the Stone instead of the free action breath. I will give it the same 11 RHD, but I believe Greater Stone is even worse than Iron.
The existence of the Greater Stone Golem really irritates me to no end. If you are to create an epic golem, at least put some thoughts into it! Well, anyway, here are the LA I suggest. I'm really not that confident for those, since immunity to magic is pretty hard to rate, so if you think I made a gross error, do not hesitate to correct me. Next time, we will cover a creature that I had forgotten about, the Gray Render!Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-04-08 at 06:48 AM.
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-04-06, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
And then, we have one of the purest cutie pies of the Monster Manual. Did you know that Gray Renders have a tendency to just choose people or animals leaving in their surroundings, then act as guardian angels for them, feeding them, and protecting them from harm? Even if they aren't accepted by their "pets" and even if the adopted creatures attack them out of fear, they will continue to protect them from afar and never strike back. Truly, the Lennie Small (Of Mice and Men, John Steinbeck) of Dungeons and Dragons. Must protect!
And in the stats department, Gray Renders do not disappoint (too much) either! Full BAB, everybody! The first creature to have that that we covered here! That kind of offsets the fact that it has 10 RHD to contend with. Also, +14 Con and +12 Str, how nice is that? Then +10 natural armor and an almost humanoid body shape make for a good AC with an armor if you take at least one fighter level. And finally, a simple but pretty good bite attack with improved grab and bonus damage on successful grapple checks, useable in conjunction with a two-handed weapon. That is a really good martial character, all in all. If only he didn't have Lennie Small levels of intelligence as well... That is really what prevents him from having +0 LA, in my opinion.
In the end, full BAB and very good Constitution don't totally amount to the same as the clay golem's magic immunity and defensive capabilities, but they are close enough for me to be only one RHD below. I think 8 RHD is pretty good for the Gray Render.
Giving more than full BAB to a chassis that good is pretty dangerous, but having DLA 0 would make the Gray Render really weak, and the huge hit to Intelligence means he will have a hard time qualifying too early for prestige class, so I think there will not be too many problems with DLA-1.
It is nice to see some wholesome descriptions once in a while in the monster manual. The render is definitely a weird guy in that regard. It only appeared in 3e despite its description looking like something that came from 1st edition, then every bit of wholesome disappeared in 4e to change them into "random frenzied predator that kills everyone in sight" (one more reason if you needed one to dislike 4e), then in 5e they specifically seek out people more intelligent than them, and no more animals, and act more like servants than guardian angels, which I find odd and less appealing than 3e.
What do you think about the Gray Render? Would you like one as a pet? If you prefer cruelty and torture to wholesomeness and protection, though, just wait a little bit. Next time, we have the green hag!Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-08-04 at 04:37 AM.
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-04-08, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
And today, we have the green hag!
Spoiler: Rant on translating the word "hag" in other languagesThere is a very interesting story with the hags that goes generally unseen, and it's the calamity that is translating their name in other languages. You see, "hag", in english, very conveniently describes both a witch and an insufferable old lady. However, there isn't nearly as much of an association between the two in other languages, so translators had to find innovative ways to translate the name. Often, they take something out of the folklore of the country. In german, they are called "Vettel", a kind of witch, which you find for example in Hansel and Gretel and other Grimm's fairy tales. In polish, they are Babas, linked to the typically russian/polish Baba Jaga, whose name also means "old woman", so this is a perfect fit. Yet, in french, there is no specific creature represented as a magic-using, deformed old woman. They could have called it sorcières, directly (witches), or vieilles sorcières (old witches), but not only is that a very broad term that doesn't roll out the tongue, but it would create misunderstandings with sorcier, which is the translation chosen for the Warlock class, and with the sorcerer class in english.
So, instead of an inaccurate translation, they went and translated "hag" as guenaude. This is an incredibly antiquated word of old french that hasn't been used since at least the mid-19th century, and dates back to the 16th century, during the religion wars in Europe, . Then, one group of protestants in southern France were called the Huguenots, and in a squib against Huguenots, G. de Saconay invented the word "guenaud", combination of Huguenot, guenon (female monkey) and guigne (bad luck).
The word later drifted to mean "somebody that can curse people and give them bad luck", and by extension, witch.
I found this choice of name pretty interesting, since I never thought translators for D&D of all things would have a particularly hard job. Thinking again, there are a lot of non-standard words scattered here and there, that couldn't be directly translated, so kudos to all of them for their work, and even taking into account the inspiration the monsters have to include them when translating.
Linguistics and sociology aside, what does a green hag have for her?
+8 Str, +2 Dex, Con, Int and Wis, and +4 Cha
Lots of SLA, at-will, with some interesting ones, like Invisibility, Tongues or Water Breathing (to go with her swim speed)
A nice natural armor at +11,
Two unimpressive claws,
A weird touch attack that doesn't seem to be useable with her claws, but deals Str damages, possibly enough to incapacitate most spellcasters,
And an under average Spell Resistance (9+HD with SR scaling)
All of that capped with 9 Monstrous Humanoid HD, which really aren't that bad, with notably full BAB.
Green Hags seem to make good rogues, having the SLA, BAB and natural weapons for it, but they would prefer another class that make them use their pretty good Str bonus. Monk/Rogue multiclass?
In the end, green hags are not bad. There is nothing really crippling with them, and a lot of tricks that could be used. In the original thread, there even was a lot of people who moved for it to be assigned +0. However, most of her SLAs, except invisibility will not come up that often, and her stat boosts aren't the most adapted to her combat style.. I think they would be fine with just one RHD less. I suggest 8 RHD for the green hag. Not much to say about the DNLA. I think DLA-0 would fit them. I pondered if I should give her one more BAB than her ECL, because she would generally be pretty weak for this ECL, but she would be pretty strong with a DLA-1, so I think it is the best.
Nice little monster, the green hag, she really has that "fairy tale witch" feel to her. What do you think about the LA? See you next time for another monster very linked to tales and floklore: the harpy!Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-04-08 at 11:32 AM.
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters
Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-04-09, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
And next, we have the mythologically-inaccurate, "No, you're thinking about sirens", harpies. They really have "1st edition monster" written all over them. Very bland stats, "thing-that-kills-you" lore, and litterally one ability to make them unique, and a pretty badly worded one at that. Captivating Song has gone through the ages without much variation, retaining the whole "your DM will know" schtick of 1st and 2nd. What happens when someone is captivated by several harpies at a time? Does the harpy have to concentrate? What happens if a non-flying creature is captivated by a harpy that is flying? A move action being an action, by RAW, the captivated character shouldn't be able to move towards the harpy, since it can't take action...
Apart from this mess, the harpy has +4 Dex, -4 Int, +2 Wis, +6 Cha, two secondary natural attacks, an average flight speed (80 ft), and 7 monstrous humanoid RHD. The ability boosts are really on the low side, it starts becoming pretty rare at this level for a monster to have no stat above 18.
These stats are weird. High charisma would lead to think a sorcerer would be nice, but they can't use verbal component while singing, and full BAB points towards martial, but they don't have good physical stats for it. I think they would make pretty good Snowflake Wardancers with a few levels in Bard and a few RHD less, since bards can explicitly cast spells while singing, and use their bardic music. I don't think a mass Save-or-Lose without HD restriction should be available before level 5, even if it can work only once per opponent. Even Wizards have to wait level 5 for that, with Stinking Cloud. And with the several other bonuses the harpies get, I'm comfortable giving it 5 RHD and DLA-1. That is, if you can restrict the captivating song to your opponents. If not, then the radius of captivating song is so large that you will never be able to use it without problem. You should always be able to affect your party once every morning to make them immune for the day, but if you are close to a city or other non-hostile creatures, that might be a problem and make you less than welcome in most places.
What do you think of thesirensharpies? Next time, the Hellhound, and its Nessian version.Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-04-09 at 05:41 PM.
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
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Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters
Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
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2021-04-09, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)Ogre in the Playground
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Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here
I'd like to point out that Savage Species offers the Siren PrC which is a great use for the Harpies' high Cha. I've used it on a ghost in the villainous competition, but it's obviously meant for harpies, and it's very good IMO.
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