Warmace one-handed, therefore can wield bigger one two-handed...+monkey grip?

[justiceforall]

Hi Playground,

Warmace is a one handed exotic weapon, which means you can use a large warmace as a two handed weapon with a -2 penalty, correct?

Does monkey-grip allow you to use an even bigger one because the warmace is one-handed already?

[Saintheart]

The short answer's 'No' to the second question, 'Yes by RAW' to the first.

Monkey Grip says:

You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change.

A Huge Warmace would be more than one size category larger than Medium. This feat would not apply.


EDIT: Reason it's yes by RAW to the first is because most EWP weapons like the Warmace/bastard sword/maul don't explicitly say that the weapon's considered a two-handed weapon when wielded in two hands as a martial weapon. They're not the same thing - the category of martial vs. exotic weapon is unfortunately more or less transparent to the issue of size.

[Anthrowhale]

...

I agree.

I generally find Greater Mighty Wallop to be a more elegant solution to weapon size.

[justiceforall]

The short answer's 'No' to the second question, 'Yes by RAW' to the first.

Monkey Grip says:



A Huge Warmace would be more than one size category larger than Medium. This feat would not apply.


EDIT: Reason it's yes by RAW to the first is because most EWP weapons like the Warmace/bastard sword/maul don't explicitly say that the weapon's considered a two-handed weapon when wielded in two hands as a martial weapon. They're not the same thing - the category of martial vs. exotic weapon is unfortunately more or less transparent to the issue of size.

Thanks, it's what I thought but I was hoping there was some weird edge RAW case :).

[Saintheart]

Monkey Grip to my mind does have one edge case use: where you want to be the Medium guy wielding a Large Greataxe, paying -4 on every attack roll in return for the kinda-low probability of getting between 13 and 18 on your damage dice instead of maximum 12.

For most weapons M.Grip does absolutely nothing since a Medium guy wielding a Large one-handed weapon is deemed as wielding a two-handed weapon in terms of effort required, i.e. whether it's one-handed or two-handed doesn't matter, you can still swing it at a -2. A greataxe is a two-handed weapon, but a Large greataxe in the hands of a Medium character becomes something other than a two-handed weapon, meaning the Medium character can't actually wield it at all -- unless he has Monkey Grip, in which case that Large greataxe is still deemed a two-handed weapon for a Medium character. But the -2 from wielding a larger weapon and Monkey Grip's -2 apply, I would say cumulatively. Thus a -4 on the attack roll.

But as said, the difference comes down to the potential of rolling 6 more damage than you could roll on your greataxe, because a Large greataxe does 3d6 damage as opposed to the Medium greataxe's 1d12. Most of the time that doesn't mean a lot and often loses out to Power Attack.

(That said, there is one interesting use for a Large greataxe in critical hit territory for Rangers - specifically, if you take Supernatural Blow from MoTW, a 3.0 feat which was unupgraded and therefore remains valid. It basically says "pick a critical-immune favored enemy, e.g. Undead. On critical hits, your weapon doesn't do a normal critical, but you do impose bonus d6s in damage equal to the number of bonus dice you'd otherwise throw on a critical hit. So if we make a kaorti resin Large greataxe, our greataxe does x4 on a critical hit. 12d6 damage on a crit. And against our critical-immune favored enemy, under Supernatural Blow, the greataxe does 3d6 base + 9d6 in bonus crit damage = 12d6 damage, i.e. normal critical damage -- because in a normal critical hit, we'd throw a total of 9 bonus dice thanks to the weapon's multiplier. Especially nice we take Murderous Intent from EoE which allows us to auto-confirm critical hits against a selected favored enemy.)

The simpler approach is Strongarm Bracers (MIC p. 139). These allow a Medium character to take a Large version of a one-handed weapon and wield it with no penalty. But if you wanted to wield a Large Greataxe, you'd still need Monkey Grip as well, since Strongarm Bracers takes away the -2, it's only Monkey Grip that allows that Large Greataxe to remain considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium character. And Monkey Grip would still sweat you for another -2.

[Darg]

Monkey Grip to my mind does have one edge case use: where you want to be the Medium guy wielding a Large Greataxe, paying -4 on every attack roll in return for the kinda-low probability of getting between 13 and 18 on your damage dice instead of maximum 12.

For most weapons M.Grip does absolutely nothing since a Medium guy wielding a Large one-handed weapon is deemed as wielding a two-handed weapon in terms of effort required, i.e. whether it's one-handed or two-handed doesn't matter, you can still swing it at a -2. A greataxe is a two-handed weapon, but a Large greataxe in the hands of a Medium character becomes something other than a two-handed weapon, meaning the Medium character can't actually wield it at all -- unless he has Monkey Grip, in which case that Large greataxe is still deemed a two-handed weapon for a Medium character. But the -2 from wielding a larger weapon and Monkey Grip's -2 apply, I would say cumulatively. Thus a -4 on the attack roll.

But as said, the difference comes down to the potential of rolling 6 more damage than you could roll on your greataxe, because a Large greataxe does 3d6 damage as opposed to the Medium greataxe's 1d12. Most of the time that doesn't mean a lot and often loses out to Power Attack.

(That said, there is one interesting use for a Large greataxe in critical hit territory for Rangers - specifically, if you take Supernatural Blow from MoTW, a 3.0 feat which was unupgraded and therefore remains valid. It basically says "pick a critical-immune favored enemy, e.g. Undead. On critical hits, your weapon doesn't do a normal critical, but you do impose bonus d6s in damage equal to the number of bonus dice you'd otherwise throw on a critical hit. So if we make a kaorti resin Large greataxe, our greataxe does x4 on a critical hit. 12d6 damage on a crit. And against our critical-immune favored enemy, under Supernatural Blow, the greataxe does 3d6 base + 9d6 in bonus crit damage = 12d6 damage, i.e. normal critical damage -- because in a normal critical hit, we'd throw a total of 9 bonus dice thanks to the weapon's multiplier. Especially nice we take Murderous Intent from EoE which allows us to auto-confirm critical hits against a selected favored enemy.)

The simpler approach is Strongarm Bracers (MIC p. 139). These allow a Medium character to take a Large version of a one-handed weapon and wield it with no penalty. But if you wanted to wield a Large Greataxe, you'd still need Monkey Grip as well, since Strongarm Bracers takes away the -2, it's only Monkey Grip that allows that Large Greataxe to remain considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium character. And Monkey Grip would still sweat you for another -2.

Monkey grip was originally designed for the 3.0 rules where weapons were crafted in only one size. So gnomes could only ever use longswords as 2handed weapons and never use greatswords without this feat for example. In the shift to 3.5 the main draw for the feat was taken away.

That said, it does start showing it's value when you stack it with size increases. Using it with Shillelagh increases the 2d6 to 3d6 for +3.5 average damage. A dwarven waraxe combined with enlarge person reaches 3d8 for +4.5 damage. It has more worth when using weapons one handed though. Power attack is just broken.

[ShurikVch]

Note: since Warmace is already an Exotic Weapon - how about to craft it as "Heavy Metal" weapon (i. e. - of Alchemical Gold or Platinum)?

[Saintheart]

Note: since Warmace is already an Exotic Weapon - how about to craft it as "Heavy Metal" weapon (i. e. - of Alchemical Gold or Platinum)?

Unfortunately, Heavy weapons (MoF p. 179) impose the Monkey Grip problem in reverse. You take -4 to your attack rolls with a Heavy weapon unless you have the right EWP feat, and you can only wield a Heavy weapon one size smaller than your own size category in two hands without taking the penalty. A Medium Warmace does 1d12 damage. A Heavy Medium Warmace does 2d8 damage. A Small Warmace does 1d10 damage, therefore a Small Heavy Warmace would do 2d6 damage. Therefore, you could wield a Small Heavy Warmace in two hands with no EWP and no attack penalty for 2d6 damage, i.e. literally no different than if you just wielded a Greatsword, or indeed a regular old Warmace in both hands as a martial weapon.

But yeah, if you're going to take EWP in a weapon anyway, you might as well make it a Heavy weapon for the extra damage dice since it's a EWP either way.

[pabelfly]

(That said, there is one interesting use for a Large greataxe in critical hit territory for Rangers - specifically, if you take Supernatural Blow from MoTW, a 3.0 feat which was unupgraded and therefore remains valid. It basically says "pick a critical-immune favored enemy, e.g. Undead. On critical hits, your weapon doesn't do a normal critical, but you do impose bonus d6s in damage equal to the number of bonus dice you'd otherwise throw on a critical hit. So if we make a kaorti resin Large greataxe, our greataxe does x4 on a critical hit. 12d6 damage on a crit. And against our critical-immune favored enemy, under Supernatural Blow, the greataxe does 3d6 base + 9d6 in bonus crit damage = 12d6 damage, i.e. normal critical damage -- because in a normal critical hit, we'd throw a total of 9 bonus dice thanks to the weapon's multiplier.

I've been wanting to do a critical hit build for a while and been wondering how I'd deal with enemies immune to critical hits, so mentioning this was really handy. Thanks.