Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

[remetagross]

The knell beetles are held back by their poor type of RHD, but their abilities are good : resilient, strong, fast, energy healing (a very rare ability) and alternate movement mode. I would play one for 7 RHD. It seems to me a strong - though maybe not overpowered - 6 RHD monster. The lesser kind, yeah it's not large, so 3 RHD, I'm good with that. It's definitely a strong one too.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler: Been a while since we had a linguistics tangent

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Justicator is a weird one, because it doesn't rely on english having a vocabulary too vast, but on english having words already from other countries in its vocabulary just to put more emphasis on something. See? I could have just said "to highlight your point", but emphasis is so much grander a word. For example, a meeting is just two people. A rendezvous is the same thing, but will probably lead to something more interesting. Freedom is just a lack of constraint, liberty is the very philosophical concept of it. In french, these words are just basic things, a rendez-vous means a meeting or planning a meeting (litterally meaning "you go there"), and we have to add "rendez-vous galant" ("romantic meeting") to mean a date. "liberté" means both freedom and liberty, and is an exceedingly common word, unlike liberty.

And the reason that words like "rendezvous" and "liberty" have more profound connotations than "meeting" and "freedom" is almost literally because "rendez-vous" and "liberté" are just ordinary words in French. For those who don't know, English as we know it exists because the Normans got their linguistic peanut butter in the Anglo-Saxons' chocolate. (Despite the best efforts of the Plantagenets, they were unable to get Anglo-Saxon chocolate in French peanut butter.) So the aristocrats spoke French, and the commoners spoke Old English. Since fancy people used the French versions of words, and common people used the Old English versions, the French versions were associated with fancy people and fancy use, while the Old English versions were the opposite.

There's one specific place where this distinction lead to different definitions, in a unique way. See, most languages don't distinguish between beef and cow, or pork and pig; the same word is used for meat and animal. But the aristocrats were the ones most likely to interact with the meat, and the commoners were the only ones that interacted with the meat, so the French names for the animals became words for meat and the Old English names for the meat became words for animals.

(Also note that Norman French was less like modern French than Chaucer's Middle English was like modern English.)

Before I played D&D, I didn't know what "knell" meant. Now, thanks mostly to the "death knell" spell, I do, and I can appreciate that this beetle and its trumpet-like horn on its head that "warbles and trumpets when it communicates", and has the ability to shake the earth with low-frequency sound, has next to nothing to do with the ringing of a bell for the dead. And to make it even more confusing, they call the horn a bell several times. But only because it looks like a trumpet bell. And they call its main ability Sonic Chime. Even though there's no actual bell involved and the trumpet can ostensibly not make any sort of chiming sound. The lesser version even has its equivalent called "sonic screech", for no discernible reason. I really don't get the naming of that guy.

I speculate that the person who originally designed the knell beetle didn't communicate the concept well enough to the artist, and it's a lot easier to edit text than art.

Also, only three bonus feats (Alertness, INA (claw), Multiattack).

INA as a bonus feat bugs me. It's probably just an effect of deciding it would be a vermin way too late, but...just increase the base damage die?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Lhosk

What? Was Lolth drunk enough that she mistook a gorilla for a drow and made a drider out of it? Come on, they even hate elves too!

The Lhosk's entry is pretty interesting, detailing their society and their beliefs (they're all animists, believing in spirits inhabiting everything in nature), which obviously push them towards a ranger or druid career. There's only one thing I'd like to know: Do they lay eggs, or do they give birth? I can't be the only one to notice that they don't have mammalian genitals, but still have a belly button, which implies really weird ways for youngs to be born.

Lhosks are pretty standard as far as spider-like creatures go. They're 8 RHD Large Monstrous Humanoids with decent physical stats and low mental stats (+8 Str, +6 Dex, +8 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha) but a very low +3 natural armor. They have the three basic senses (low-light, darkvision and scent), two slams and one bite. They have no ability except Entangling Web, with the regular 10ft range increment and entanglement. Interestingly, the save DC is Dex-based instead of Con-based, but it's not really a great thing since you have a lower Dex bonus than your strength.

The Lhosk doesn't have much going for it, and we have to give it a number of RHD where its size and pure stats will make it thrive. At least it can wield weapons, speak and has reach. This is basically a better centaur in terms of physical stats, but much slower. Centaur got +1 in the original thread, for a total of ECL 5. I think the Lhosk might be useable with 5 RHD, despite being kinda weak for this ECL. And DLA-2 gives it 8 BAB at ECL 6, which... Allows it to enter Primeval two levels early or bear warrior one level early. There's worse uses of your levels.


Okay, this one was easy. However, it was only the calm before the storm, because next time, we will review the absolute nightmare that are the living spells, the only template to which the LA-assignment thread hasn't assigned an LA!

[remetagross]

What a disapppointing monster. I think you're too generous with it. Its ability modifiers are nothing to write home about, and its special attacks lackluster. They're large and have no trouble using weapons, which is their one redeeming feature. I'd go with 5 RHDs and DLA-2.

[Morphic tide]

So, basically, the puppet taratects from "I'm a spider, so what?"?

Was actually thinking in terms of Druid access with the goal being funnel-web behaviors where there's giant webs covered in spiders, not an up-front combatant with weapon use.

The Lhosk doesn't have much going for it

Entering Primeval does open up "Reject Lolth, return to Monke" jokes, and is a perfectly fine move because its bounds are size-dependent, the ability scores are rendered into bonuses, and if an item you're wearing fits on the animal you get to keep it. So if you want to use the joke with Dire Ape, you carry over any gear above the waist and keep your Str/Dex/Con advantage over a normal race, while you can also be a Dire Snake with a net +22 Strength, +18 Dexterity, and +12 Constitution for impressive effectiveness in chewing on unfortunate enemies.

[GreatWyrmGold]

What? Was Lolth drunk enough that she mistook a drow for a gorilla and made a drider out of it?

Why would Lolth turn a drow into a drider if she thought it was a gorilla?


I used to think these were cool, just like the Spider-Monkeys from Spy Kids 2. I will acknowledge that spider-people who aren't just villains are kinda neat, there should be more of those...but these are literally just tool-using animist gorillas. The whole "Lhosk Society" section is just describing gorilla troops, except building "temporary shelters" instead of gorilla beds.

Okay, that's not completely fair. There are additional details given in the fluff section, they're just nonsense. Lhosk select leaders by ritual combat, for instance, and lhosk "nests" have half as many females as males. In reality, gender balance in gorilla troops is about even if you count juveniles, the head silverback is usually the other males' dad, and when gorillas display spiritual beliefs they tend to reflect those of neighboring human settlements.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Living spells

Aaah, living spells. Probably the single most unique template in all of D&D in that it applies not to a creature (or even two creatures, in Tauric's case), but to a spell, changing them into an amorphous creature that applies the spell effect on each of its attacks. The concept is wild and the monsters created are original and quite varied despite the simplistic design. As such, living spells have more support than most anything else in this book, notably the coolest prestige class in all of d&d 3.5, the Spell Sovereign from Dragon #357. They were initially printed in Eberron Campaign Setting, reprinted in MM3 and expanded on in Eberron: Five Nations, and even in 4th edition, with Dungeon magazine #175, and recently 5th edition gave us a few, including a living Create Demiplane, which is as terrifying as it is tame, only trapping its enemies for a little while in an extradimensional space.
Living spells are oozes in 3e, aberrations in 4e and constructs in 5e, but they are invariably created when too much magical energy is concentrated in a corrupted place, generally the Mournland in Eberron.

I like to think that visiting the Mournland looks just like that, with so many living spells that you can't walk a mile without qualifying for every spelltouched feat in existence.
From left to right, we have a Shroud of Death and Despair (living crushing despair/finger of death), a Withering Grasp (living Evard's black tentacle/ray of enfeeblement), a chillspark (two 4e spells), a Glitterfire (living fireball/glitterdust), a living Cloud of Knives, a living Entangle, a living Flaming Sphere (supposedly) familiar, a living Blasphemy, and two more unidentified living spells

Now, living spells are supposed to be only applicable to spells with an Effect or Area line but no Target line. Of course, even in 3e, that rule was already broken with the Shroud of Death and Despair being a half-living Finger of Death, which is definitely a targeted spell. The point is, there can be living spells for any spell, even if we restrict the caster level to the minimum needed to cast a spell. You can't assign an LA that will fit all spells. That's why we will only review here the example living spells in MM3: the Glitterfire, the Chilling Fog (living cone of cold), and the living Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos. But if you have other ideas of fun living spells, I'd like to hear them!


I'm going to consider here that reducing the RHD of a living spell doesn't affect its caster level. Thing is, the caster level of a living spell affects everything from its ability scores to its AC, size and even SR. If I considered that all living spells have caster level equal to their RHD, then most living spells would become 1 RHD Medium oozes and one or two CL 1 spell effects. Not that original or interesting. Living spells are already ooze type, are mindless, and have only one ability, which is to apply an area-of-effect or ray spell to a single target at melee range. That's not good. Not good at all. No need to reduce the spell's power level further.

General stats
- The ability scores of a living spell are 10+SL/7+SL/10+SL/_/7+SL/10+SL (total 5*SL-16, round to the lower multiple of 2, with SL being the spell level of the living spell). That's generally low, but not unexpected from oozes.
- They get SR 10+CL, which translates here to SR 10+HD, average but always appreciated. They also have Deflection bonus equal to their spell level and DR 10/Magic, which is honestly pretty good for oozes, who are used to have 1 Dex and no natural armor or DR.
- They have Engulf as a Gelatinous Cube, and otherwise use their single slam to apply their spell effect.
- As all oozes, 60ft blindsight and mind-affecting immunity.

Chilling Fog, living Cone of Cold, CL 9, Large, 20ft movement speed: Cone of Cold is one of the worst level 5 spells, being both uninteresting and plagued by Cold spells being generally overleveled for their effect. The Chilling Fog has no interesting ability except dealing 9d6 damage with its slam, which isn't even that easy considering its 20ft movement speed, and is generally worse than the Gelatinous Cube's paralysis (and will become even worse at higher levels). Its non-intelligence stats are more balanced and generally better than GC except Con (+4/+2/+4/-8/+2/+4) and having 5 deflection is decent. All in all, I guess the high damage output and decent stats are enough for 3 RHD, DLA-4, but it will probably be very strong at ECL 3 and very weak when 9d6 doesn't one-shot anything anymore.

Edit: Considering the immediate power of the chilling fog at ECL 3, 4 RHD may be better, but do not hesitate to reduce that number if your campaign starts at higher level.

Glitterfire, living Fireball/Glitterdust, CL 5, Medium, 40ft movement speed: Lower damage and slightly lower overall ability scores than Chilling Fog, but twice as fast, a save-or-suck as a rider and Medium size (probably better than non-reach Large on a creature with only marginal grappling focus). Seems once again like a solid 3 RHD, DLA-1.

Living Blasphemy/Holy Word/Word of Chaos/Dictum, CL 13, Huge, 20ft movement speed: Fun fact, the template doesn't actually give the monster any subtype, which means that the Evil/Good/Lawful/Chaotic subtype is specific to the living Blasphemy and its brethrens. The living spell's ability scores are pretty good for a lower-level creature (+6/+4/+6/-8/+4/+6), and its spell effect is monstrously effective at low level, but doesn't work on creatures of the same alignment and will progressively become inexorably weaker as you level up. Interestingly, Blasphemy is the only one with the potential to stunlock an opponent. If you stumble upon a non-evil creature with 13 HD or less, you can walk up to them, and hit them with a pseudopod. No save, they are dazed for a round. Then, you engulf them. Each turn, the guy is engulfed, and gets dazed. No save. No way for you to run out of spells. The guy is just boned except if they have SR. Word of Chaos does the same, but only up to 12 RHD (but might actually be better since there are many more Evil creatures than chaotic ones), and the paladin alignments require the opponent to have at most 8 RHD. No-save-just lose is not something I'd like to include at low level, regardless of the other drawbacks of the creature. It's a one-trick pony, but a one-trick pony who might one-shot bosses up until mid-level. I think 7 RHD is fair for Blasphemy and Word of Chaos, since it is a level where basically all CR-appropriate encounters have more than 8 HD and a decent portion have more than 13. Holy Word and Dictum are weaker, and I suggest 6 RHD. In both cases, DLA-5 seems reasonable to give them the ability to actually hit people when reaching melee range.


I love the flavor from 4e for living spells. They're incomplete spells with everything set in stone except the target area or creature. They feel this absence as a flaw and try to fill this gap by blindly attacking any creature in sight. I would have liked to see a harmless living spell like a living Stabilize just going around and engulfing harmed creatures like a gooey healing pod. I guess a living Dispel Magic would also be really interesting. What would you like to see/use in your campaigns as a living spell? I personally used a living Tasha's Hideous Laughter in one of my campaigns as a sentry ooze in a prison, making prisoners laugh so much that they could be brought back in their cells with no problem, and creating a great creepy ambience for the PCs. Next time, we will have the one guy you will never win a staring contest against, it's the Lurking Strangler!

[PoeticallyPsyco]

What would you like to see/use in your campaigns as a living spell?

For sheer flavor, I feel like it has to be necrotic skull bomb. "You find yourselves beset by a living necrotic skull bomb!" "Come again?"

The spell matrix line would make great assistant mages. Cast your spells into them, and they regurgitate them back for you on command.

[remetagross]

Yeah, living spells are awesome. What sets their speed? It seems to vary from one to the other. But their lack of any path for progression really hampers them, except if they're based on non-CL dependant effects (like, a living Avasculate?). Though they have mental stats way higher than what oozes regularly get, which is nice. This means martial initiators (most likely crusaders) are on the table.

The chilling fog hits like a ton of bricks for 3 RHDs. It will one-shot anything. I'd go with 5 RHD, when one considers the usefulness of ooze immunities and blindsight.
The glitterfire...same, dishing out 5d6 damage at 3 RHDs, + a rider, is kinda nuts. But okay, the ability scores are lower...why not.
Good assessment for the living other stuff. Man, that ability for an auto-lose for the living Blasphemy is the darndest thing.

[Beni-Kujaku]

For sheer flavor, I feel like it has to be necrotic skull bomb. "You find yourselves beset by a living necrotic skull bomb!" "Come again?"

The spell matrix line would make great assistant mages. Cast your spells into them, and they regurgitate them back for you on command.

Nice ones! Particularly the spell matrix could make for a great wizard, a spell sovereign that just surrounds themselves with awakened living spell matrixes, and gets buffed as hell immediately when needed. I can see the necrotic bomb just being a black ooze with bubbles erupting that take the form of a skull and spell matrix just being a bunch of geometric shapes constantly changing form (like that)

Yeah, living spells are awesome. What sets their speed? It seems to vary from one to the other. But their lack of any path for progression really hampers them, except if they're based on non-CL dependant effects (like, a living Avasculate?). Though they have mental stats way higher than what oozes regularly get, which is nice. This means martial initiators (most likely crusaders) are on the table.

The chilling fog hits like a ton of bricks for 3 RHDs. It will one-shot anything. I'd go with 5 RHD, when one considers the usefulness of ooze immunities and blindsight.
The glitterfire...same, dishing out 5d6 damage at 3 RHDs, + a rider, is kinda nuts. But okay, the ability scores are lower...why not.
Good assessment for the living other stuff. Man, that ability for an auto-lose for the living Blasphemy is the darndest thing.

The speed of a living spell is determined by the lowest range among the spell that compose it. Close means 20ft speed, Medium means 40ft speed, and Long means 60ft speed. Other fixed ranges make the living spell's speed 20ft.


I think you're overestimating 10d6 damage. Even at level 3, you'll routinely find CR 5 monsters, who basically all have more than 35 HP. A polar bear is CR 4 and has 68 HP. According to here, the average number of HP for CR 4 monsters is 48, and 56 for CR 5 monsters. And it being tied to an attack roll and a Reflex for half means you won't deal 35 damage per round. Now, I'm not saying 10d6 is low. It's still very much a lot of damage for level 3, and if there was some sort of LA-buyoff for RHDR, I would have given the cloud more RHD. That's why I said it is very strong at ECL 3 (but then again, not overwhelmingly so either, a raging barbarian 3 orc deals 2d6+18 when power attacking with its greatsword, or 25 points of damage, which is in the same ballpark, with no reflex save for half. It's the same as what the living spell deals if the opponent makes their save (point-buy 18 Str, no Power Attack, 1d6+6+9d6/2=25). Of course, the living spell can also go barbarian and power attack, but will get less advantage out of it, and will not be able to make iteratives later. But I'm taking into account the advancement here. You can't use items, you can't speak, you have no skills, and your main ability doesn't scale at all. You can't even increase your CL since these are not technically SLAs. 10d6 is impressive at ECL 3, but quickly falls out of relevance, and having to pay 5 RHD for it around ECL 8 or 9 would be way too many. And finally, you can compare it to a gelatinous cube (praise be to the cubic measurement stick!). It has lower stats, but paralysis never falls out of relevance, its DC scales with Constitution and number of HD, and you get a chance to just be invisible against any opponent with low ranks in Spot. At the same level, if you asked me if I wanted to play a Chilling Fog or a Gelatinous Cube, I would say the Gelatinous Cube without much hesitation. This is why I think the Chilling Fog should be playable at a lower ECL than GC, hence 3. But as always, if you accept a player using monstrous characters in your game, feel free to increase that number of RHD, but I think in that case you should find a way to mitigate the lack of advancement.

[GreatWyrmGold]

What would you like to see/use in your campaigns as a living spell?

Ignoring the stated requirements, it depends on what I want to use 'em for. Something like a Living Animate Dead or Living Awaken could make a pretty good adventure hook, the former making zombies out of any corpses it touches and the latter making a bunch of intelligent but battered animals. Living Animate Objects could make for a fun gimmick encounter, animating players' armor and magic items as the fight goes on. Living Plane Shift works for a total party screw-you. Living Gate would be nuts. I don't know what something like a Living Fabricate or Living Sending would do, but I bet I could make it fun.

For the kinds of spells intended to be turned into living spells? Prismatic spray, probably.

[Tusen]

I'd be leaning towards the weak 4 RHD side of things rather than strong 3 RHD, but once we get into oozes with their severe limitations but also drastic benefits from their type/body we end up in the realm of campaigns being able to swing it either way to greater degrees. If we are assuming a 'typical' campaign with some politics and urban shenanigans along with some dungeon delving style stuff I'd go towards 4 RHD, if we are talking murderhobo simulator versus enemies that don't know about you in advance/don't have adaptability in their prep. Back to the suggested 3 if you live in an area where cold creatures are somewhat common, so you will encounter resistances more. The damage is nice, but I really really wish it could be delivered with a touch rather than relying on a slam attack. Once we get to the realm of resistances being more on demand it becomes a bigger issue, not only are you dealing a lower % of HP but enemies are able to make your damage drop to almost 0 most of the time in the end. You can burn more of their resources by using party synergy, but that can be said of anything.

So I'm on the borderline between strong RHD 3 and weak RHD 4, with gelatinous cube being on the strong RHD 4 side of things. A 3.8 vs a 4.6 if you will.

EDIT: Edited to fix up the usual tiredness malarkey

[Beni-Kujaku]

Ignoring the stated requirements, it depends on what I want to use 'em for. Something like a Living Animate Dead or Living Awaken could make a pretty good adventure hook, the former making zombies out of any corpses it touches and the latter making a bunch of intelligent but battered animals. Living Animate Objects could make for a fun gimmick encounter, animating players' armor and magic items as the fight goes on. Living Plane Shift works for a total party screw-you. Living Gate would be nuts. I don't know what something like a Living Fabricate or Living Sending would do, but I bet I could make it fun.

For the kinds of spells intended to be turned into living spells? Prismatic spray, probably.

Spells with costly components and spells that don't account for being mobile make for scary living spells. Like, circle of death is just "kill 11d4 HD of creatures per slam". I think the worst of all is living Precipitate Complete Breach. It just opens a planar breach to a random plane wherever it goes. It would probably end up stranded somewhere in the multiverse after going through one of its own breaches, but before that it would create an absolutely hellish environment with dozens of planar breaches everywhere, interacting with each other, burning, drowning, healing and killing people all at once while creatures from dozens of planes wage war against each other in the middle of the material plane. The rifts themselves won't last too long, but the effects will probably warp the environment forever. Living Astral Hospice is the much tamer version. If the spell touches you, you are warped to a demiplane that immediately closes, leaving you in the middle of the Astral Plane with no way to come back.
I'd say Living Animate Dead and Animate Objects (warning: doesn't work on items worn, I don't think being living changes that) would work similarly to the Ravid's ability. Objects just animate left and right and defend the living spell, but it can't control them beyond that. You'd just have a tornado of random items all around.
Living Fabricate would be wild. You can imagine a crawling mass of goo turning everything it touches into spikes or other ferrofluid-like shapes. It goes through walls by just continuously changing their shape. If you try to hit it, your sword is now an unuseable scrap of metal. If it engulfs you, your armor pierces through your skin, your shield warps around your arm and your helmet starts suffocating you. The only way to kill it would be to launch an arrow or a metal ball covered with sovereign glue. The missile would be engulfed, stay perfectly stuck to the living spell, and continuously change forms, destroying it from the inside.

I'd be leaning towards the weak 4 RHD side of things rather than strong 3 RHD, but once we get into oozes with their severe limitations but also drastic benefits from their type/body we end up in the realm of campaigns being able to swing it either way to greater degrees. If we are assuming a 'typical' campaign with some politics and urban shenanigans along with some dungeon delving style stuff I'd go towards 4 RHD, if we are talking murderhobo simulator versus enemies that don't know about you in advance/don't have prep time then 3RHD. Back to 4 if you live in an area where cold creatures are somewhat common, so you will encounter resistances more. The damage is nice, but I really really wish it could be delivered with a touch rather than relying on a slam attack. Once we get to the realm of resistances being more on demand it becomes a bigger issue, not only are you dealing a lower % of HP but enemies are able to make your damage drop to almost 0 most of the time in the end. You can burn more of their resources by using party synergy, but that can be said of anything.

So I'm on the borderline between strong RHD 3 and weak RHD 4, with gelatinous cube being on the strong RHD 4 side of things. A 3.8 vs a 4.6 if you will.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying. Your advice is to increase the number of RHD in the case the Chilling Fog encounters a lot of Cold creatures? And to reduce it in a campaign where the Fog will get the most out of its ability? The point of reducing RHD is to reduce the ECL (Equivalent Class Level) at which the monster would theoretically be playable. If the Chilling Fog is estimated with 3 RHD, it will face creatures around CR 3, and around CR 4 if it is estimated as worth 4 RHD. Reducing the number of RHD actually makes the monster stronger since they can be replaced with class levels. Increasing the number of RHD in the case of a campaign where the monster will already be weaker than normal makes no sense.
I'm inclined to agree with the crowd if they think 4 RHD is better for Chilling Fog, but I'd like to make sure you understand what what you're saying entails. If you already knew that and I just misunderstood, then I'm sorry and could you please explain your reasoning.


Fun fact by the way: this mistake that increasing RHD without reducing LA actually reduces a monster's power is not that uncommon. Actually that's exactly what WotC did once. In a document about presenting their process of designing monsters (dowload link) (supposedly showing how they always do it), they create an hypothetical monster, the Imago, a hornet-like humanoid. It initially has 2 RHD and they estimate its LA to be +2 (already stupidly high for what it brings, but I digress). To check their LA (at least they try to check), they compare the Imago against a human rogue. First, they forget about the rogue's class features, including sneak attack and just compare HP, AC and damage per round of each (already infuriating), and even then they find that the Imago is no match compared to a 4th level rogue. So what, now they reduce their estimated LA, right? NO. They increase its number of RHD from 2 to 3. Without reducing LA. While it has humanoid RHD, one of the single worst kinds of RHD.

Spoiler: Please appreciate that great insight in the mind of WotC design process

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Even assuming that an imago character would have equipment equivalent to that of any other 4th-level character, it seemed clearly inferior in most ways to a standard-race character of that level. The following options for bringing it into balance occurred to me.
• Raise its Hit Dice. One more Hit Die would improve its BAB and its non-good saving throws, in addition to increasing its hit points. Because of rounding, the poison’s Fortitude save DC would be unaffected. That additional Hit Die would also provide another skill point, but it would not provide
another feat.
• Increase the racial bonus to Dexterity. This option would improve the creature’s ranged attack rolls and Reflex save. If I made Weapon Finesse (stinger) its racial bonus feat, that attack roll would also improve.
• Add other ability bonuses, or remove the penalty to Intelligence or Charisma. A bonus to Strength would improve melee attacks, a bonus to Constitution would improve hit points, Fortitude save, and the poison’s Fortitude save DC. A bonus to Intelligence would increase skill points, and a
bonus to Wisdom would increase the Will saving throw bonus and the racial bonuses on Listen
and Spot.
• In the end I decided on a combination of increasing the Hit Dice and adding a +2 racial bonus to
Wisdom. The resulting comparison was close enough to be worth the +2 level adjustment and the
starting ECL of 4.

The final creature has 3 RHD and LA+2. Not only did they choose the abolute worst way to buff their monster, they don't even understand their own system and somehow believed that this would keep the monster at ECL 4. I am speechless. This level of incompetence is really something to behold.

[Tusen]

Fun fact by the way: this mistake that increasing RHD without reducing LA actually reduces a monster's power is not that uncommon.

Nah that's just me being tired. I did this in the houserules thread as well, I tend to swap numbers when tired. I said 1gp = 2p when I meant 1p = 2gp in there, and here I meant I'd be leaning towards low 4 RHD in normal and 3 in cold areas. I'll fix it with an edit.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Lurking Strangler

Look at them. Look at these eyes and tell me this expression doesn't mean that the only way to help them is to put an end to their miserable, painful life.

Spoiler: If you really want to play a lurking strangler, then you have to understand what it really means to be a lurking strangler

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The Lurking Strangler is a disgusting monster composed of only two eyes linked by a strand of muscles. The eyes have no eyelids, but they do have eyelashes, long eyelashes that seem to just grow out of the transition between the sclera and the muscles. That must be one of the saddest monsters there is. An eye so big without lids will get dry very quick, have dust get stuck inside, and have its lashes eventually detach and lay on the eye itself, causing intense and constant pain. Its art represents it coiling and almost making a knot out of itself, while its description says that it is in "fear, tension or disagreement" when it does so. Because yeah, that's the only way it has to communicate, since it has no mouth. Now, can I point you to the monster manual, and a little-known but quite crucial part of the type description page: "Aberrations eat, breathe and sleep". Eat and breath with what? Its pupils!? The description says a Lurking Strangler will always try to strangle people to death, but why? It can't eat them, it can't do anything except making people feel the same pain it does, the same pain that is multiplied everytime it tries to sleep and slowly falls to the ground until its eyes grind against the hard floor and it wakes up, ever hungrier, evermore tired, evermore envious of everything it could have had, of the rest it can give to anybody else with its SLA, but will never taste itself, of the ability for others to let go, to simply close their eyes and let the pain disappear, once, and for all.

And the best worst part of it? That's by design. The lurking stranglers were purposefully created by Daelkyrs (basically, think of them as aberration Sarrukhs, who used to have Quickened Polymorph Any Object as an SLA. Yep, that's a 12th level spell.) because they were bored! I mean, the guys already created the freaking beholders and the absolute nightmares that are the dolgaunts and the dolgrims, it shouldn't surprise me that they created a creature constantly in pain and starving, forced to eat (probably) through their pupils, without the ability to even scream in pain, just as a hobby. And obviously, beholders are using stranglers as familiars, because, really, the perfect fit for sadistic, mysanthrope, racist, prideful aberrations like them is seeing something slightly similar to themselves but much weaker be constantly squirming in pain without distractingly screaming.

Between Living Spell and Lurking Strangler, that part of MM3 was really determined to point out the shortcomings of the LA assignment thread. To this day, I still think the asterisk was not necessary. The Lurking Strangler is a Tiny aberration with 2 RHD and great caster stats (-6 Str, +8 Dex, +2 Con, -6 Int). It even gets Alertness, all-around vision (obviously), the ability to strangle helpless people, killing them in 3 rounds (obviously), and a permanent Feather Fall as well as 20ft (good) flying (less obviously, but makes sense considering they're mini-beholders). The only real problem is the body shape. Beyond the obvious problems with excruciating pain, the lurking strangler cannot talk, cannot manipulate items basically ever, most probably cannot wear armor, and lacks more than two-thirds of item slots (it can probably still wear rings, bracelets, amulets, and of course spectacles). This would just be another -0 monster if the daelkyrs didn't push the irony to the point of giving them beholder-like eye rays, Cause Fear and Sleep. Two very strong SoL for their level, but with a hard cap on the number of RHD they can affect (4 for Sleep, 6 for Cause Fear). This means that the lurking strangler is significantly stronger at ECL 2 or 3, and completely useless starting at ECL 5. If you're playing at very low level, LA+0 is probably fine. If not... Well, that's why we're here. At ECL 4+, the body slots become a real issue, on top of the already crippling absence of hands. The high Dex is pretty good, and flying is all-important, even this slow. But the low Int and the absence of useful attacks make me think that it's not significantly stronger than a standard humanoid race. 1 RHD*, DLA-2* seems acceptable.


And after one of the most complicated monsters, here comes one of the simplest ones. Next ones, we will review the Mastodon.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Mastodon

That's an elephant. That's literally just an elephant with +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Cha, and +1 Natural armor. Slightly stronger, but not enough for one more RHD. 7 RHD, DLA-5.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Mindshredders

Mindshredders: the four pages that could have been used for Modrons.

Mindshredders are a disappointment in basically all ways imaginable. WotC obviously wanted them to be important, maybe even to rival mind flayers in iconic-ness. They gave the mindshredders four pages of the manual, a very detailed life cycle, a society that was probably meant for campaign-wide enemies, with main colonies surrounded by satellite colonies, all in a very organized and hierarchical fashion. The problem? Mindshredders are just not interesting as enemies. They're intelligent enough that their ant-like society doesn't make much sense, they don't really have a leader since any warrior can become a zenthal, their main way of feeding is Wis damage, which means they should just enslave animals and have an endless supply of food, since ability damage heals naturally 1/day. The main problem in my opinion is their lack of goal. Demons want to kill everyone because it makes more of them in the Abyss. Aboleths want to enslave creatures and live like kings under the sea. Illithids want to control the world because they feel like it's their destiny, and experiment on new ways to propagate ceremorphosis. Mindshredders only want to feed and breed, and there's no reason an intelligent species would only want that. Disappointing lore, and their mechanical stats are not much more interesting. In the end, they were an ambitious new direction for aberrations, but simply weren't given anything in the right directions.


Larva, 2 RHD: All mindshredders are basically the same: quadruped, no hand but 2 natural weapons that deal ridiculously low wisdom damage on top of regular damage and can be used as touch attacks instead (only Wis damage). They also have Thought Sense, basically blindsense but only against creatures with minds. Not extremely useful, but may be interesting against invisible creatures. The larva's Thought Sense is only 20ft. The larva has +2 Dex, +4 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis, -6 Cha, +2 natural armor, and two tentacles dealing 1 point of wisdom damage. The -6 Int hurts a lot, as well as the lack of hands. Being able to make touch attacks is good for maneuvers and sneak attacks who deal additional damage, and the stats apart from intelligence are not bad, but it will be completely useless without class levels, and even then, no manipulators and no skills will be hard to overcome. 1 RHD, DLA-1 (even going Ur-priest isn't easy with so few skill points).

Warrior, 7 RHD: The adult form of the mindshredders is Large, with decent physical stats (+10 Str, +6 Con) and low mental stats (-6 Int, +2 Wis, -6 Cha). You also have a pretty good +10 natural armor. The natural attacks are now claws (the only real different is that you can't take Extended Reach) and deal 1d2 Wis (wooo). Your Thought Sense is now 40ft (woohoo.) Also, you have a +20 to Jump checks, which heavily favors going Swordsage for Tiger Claw maneuvers and maybe Assassin's Stance (you already auto-succeed on most Jump checks, and a lot of Tiger Claw maneuvers make the opponent flat-footed against you, which means sneak attack is possible, and makes your touch attack viable against foes with very high natural armor). No hands and low int are still bad, but I think I'd play that with 4 RHD. To note is that you and the larva can't speak, but can understand languages. Also, DLA-2 is fine.

Zenthal, 13 RHD: Somehow, the third form is smaller than the second one, and dumps all its strength to get actual mental stats. Obviously nothing appropriate for its initial number of RHD (-2 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +8 Cha). Its tentacles deal 1d4 Wis, but considering its strength, you're probably not using it much. 8 Natural armor and an innate +4 shield bonus to AC (doesn't apply to touch attacks despite being force) make for an AC worthy of a creature with ~10 HD. It also gets Confusion and Hypnotic Pattern as 3/day SLAs. Confusion is not a bad SLA to have, but that's basically your only ability, and you're completely useless against Mind-affecting-immune opponents. The larva's and fighter's main strategy is unavailable to you because of your low strength except if you pay a feat for Weapon Finesse, and you still don't have hands. I'm really not sure the Zenthal is that much stronger than the warrior, but a 4th level spell as an SLA remains pretty good, and your high Charisma opens a lot of classes to you, notably Warlock. I suggest 5 RHD and DLA-5.


Have any of you used mindshredders as opponents in your games? In what circumstances? Next time, we will continue with the current streak of -0 creatures, and what a -0 it is! See you then for the Mivilorn!

[remetagross]

Yeah, the Mastodon sucks. There's only so much you can do with "slight variations of existing animals", ie the Ironclad Mauler. It's a bit of a waste of book space, really.

I had never ever heard about Mindshredders. I can fathom the larva with 1 RHD, since that HD would then be swapped with your first class level HD. The warriors only have that +20 to Jump going for them, so I guess 4 RHD is good enough. The Znethal is incredibly weak for that number of RHDs. I'm fine with 5 RHDs, but the DLA should be even lower in my opinion. DLA -6 allows one to nab 7th-level spells by ECL 20 if going for a prepared class, or 5th-level spells if going Bard.

[GreatWyrmGold]

8 Natural armor and an innate +4 shield bonus to AC (doesn't apply to touch attacks despite being force)

If touch spells work through a steel breastplate, why not through a magical force field?

Mindshredders are a disappointment in basically all ways imaginable. WotC obviously wanted them to be important, maybe even to rival mind flayers in iconic-ness. They gave the mindshredders four pages of the manual, a very detailed life cycle, a society that was probably meant for campaign-wide enemies, with main colonies surrounded by satellite colonies, all in a very organized and hierarchical fashion. The problem? Mindshredders are just not interesting as enemies.

About all mindshredders have going for them is three neat designs. They look like three separate species from the same taxonomic class rather than life stages of the same organism, but still.

The lack of motivation is a bad thing, but also none of the detail provided is very interesting. Larvae turn into warriors, warriors turn into zenthals, zenthals make larvae. If mindshredders had a more elaborate life cycle—like the graboids from Tremors (which produce a bunch of shrieker offspring, which gorge themselves and replicate themselves, before transforming into ass-blasters which mate and lay graboid eggs)—or something else interesting going on, the fact that they aren't psychologically interesting wouldn't matter any more than it did for Tremors.


If I was going to make better mindshredder lore, I'd probably put them somewhere between WH40k's tyranids and Worm's [spoiler]. They absorb mind-energy as larvae, and then metamorphose into different forms based on what mind-energy they absorb. If the larva absorbs most of its mind-energy from animals, it turns into something like the mindshredder warrior—big, tough, but not especially bright. But if it absorbs its mind-energy from intelligent creatures, it turns into something more intelligent and magical. (With space to expand to extra monsters, for mindshredders which absorb mind-energy from archmages, assassins, dragons, fiends, and other high-level or powerful creatures.)

The adult mindshredders need to feed on mind-energy of the same sort that they fed upon as larvae; a mindshredder adult that matured after eating mind-energy from a couple of unhoused peasants could eat their cow's mind-energy, but eating only that would be about as healthy as an all-butter diet would be to humans. And the mind-energy isn't just used to make new mindshredders, it's part of their metabolic needs. So just to survive, a group of mature humanoid-feeding mindshredders would need to attack or capture a fair number of people, enough that they could regain mind-energy as fast as the mindshredders consumed it (or so the humanoids could be replaced). And of course, sticking intelligent or powerful creatures in the nursery means those larvae are more likely to mature into more intelligent/powerful forms.

If that's not enough, the intelligent adult mindshredders are acutely aware that their "minds" are just shreds of other creatures' minds woven into something less than the sum of its parts. They're driven to try and find some sense of personal identity, but can't think of any way to do that except to take mind-energy from people who have something they think they're missing. But they're still just copying bits of other people without any ability to understand what they took, to synthesize those fragments into something new, something unique, identifying. Something to give them an identity.

You know, an easily-grokked alien psychological trait, one which can be extrapolated into both actionable goals that inspire plot hooks and a broadly alien (yet comprehensible) psychology. The kind of thing a would-be iconic aberration should have.

[AsuraKyoko]

If touch spells work through a steel breastplate, why not through a magical force field?


About all mindshredders have going for them is three neat designs. They look like three separate species from the same taxonomic class rather than life stages of the same organism, but still.

The lack of motivation is a bad thing, but also none of the detail provided is very interesting. Larvae turn into warriors, warriors turn into zenthals, zenthals make larvae. If mindshredders had a more elaborate life cycle—like the graboids from Tremors (which produce a bunch of shrieker offspring, which gorge themselves and replicate themselves, before transforming into ass-blasters which mate and lay graboid eggs)—or something else interesting going on, the fact that they aren't psychologically interesting wouldn't matter any more than it did for Tremors.


If I was going to make better mindshredder lore, I'd probably put them somewhere between WH40k's tyranids and Worm's [spoiler]. They absorb mind-energy as larvae, and then metamorphose into different forms based on what mind-energy they absorb. If the larva absorbs most of its mind-energy from animals, it turns into something like the mindshredder warrior—big, tough, but not especially bright. But if it absorbs its mind-energy from intelligent creatures, it turns into something more intelligent and magical. (With space to expand to extra monsters, for mindshredders which absorb mind-energy from archmages, assassins, dragons, fiends, and other high-level or powerful creatures.)

The adult mindshredders need to feed on mind-energy of the same sort that they fed upon as larvae; a mindshredder adult that matured after eating mind-energy from a couple of unhoused peasants could eat their cow's mind-energy, but eating only that would be about as healthy as an all-butter diet would be to humans. And the mind-energy isn't just used to make new mindshredders, it's part of their metabolic needs. So just to survive, a group of mature humanoid-feeding mindshredders would need to attack or capture a fair number of people, enough that they could regain mind-energy as fast as the mindshredders consumed it (or so the humanoids could be replaced). And of course, sticking intelligent or powerful creatures in the nursery means those larvae are more likely to mature into more intelligent/powerful forms.

If that's not enough, the intelligent adult mindshredders are acutely aware that their "minds" are just shreds of other creatures' minds woven into something less than the sum of its parts. They're driven to try and find some sense of personal identity, but can't think of any way to do that except to take mind-energy from people who have something they think they're missing. But they're still just copying bits of other people without any ability to understand what they took, to synthesize those fragments into something new, something unique, identifying. Something to give them an identity.

You know, an easily-grokked alien psychological trait, one which can be extrapolated into both actionable goals that inspire plot hooks and a broadly alien (yet comprehensible) psychology. The kind of thing a would-be iconic aberration should have.

Now that is some cool lore! And I can definitely appreciate the Worm inspirations, too.

[Beni-Kujaku]

If touch spells work through a steel breastplate, why not through a magical force field?

Because I was thinking of Mage Armor, which applies to incorporeal touch, but yeah, it doesn't apply to other forms of touch attacks.

About all mindshredders have going for them is three neat designs. They look like three separate species from the same taxonomic class rather than life stages of the same organism, but still.

That's part of the problem in my opinion. The zenthals just aren't special enough. Having a boss makes for a more engaging narrative, but if any warrior can turn into a zenthal (it's not even that hard), it defeats the point of killing one.

They absorb mind-energy as larvae, and then metamorphose into different forms based on what mind-energy they absorb.
If that's not enough, the intelligent adult mindshredders are acutely aware that their "minds" are just shreds of other creatures' minds woven into something less than the sum of its parts.
You know, an easily-grokked alien psychological trait, one which can be extrapolated into both actionable goals that inspire plot hooks and a broadly alien (yet comprehensible) psychology. The kind of thing a would-be iconic aberration should have.

That's really great, and could allow for xenomorph-like variant mindshredders. A mindshredder larva feeding only on other mindshredders could become something like a neothelid, just a bigger larva with no mind of its own, that can be enslaved but not really gain sentience and are used as fodder by the mindshredder army (maybe with an area Wis drain effect). A mindshredder eating only dragons would gain some characteristics of the dragon mind, maybe a sense of individuality and sorcerer levels. One who ate too many angels becomes lawful good, but mostly becomes mad because it is forced to do evil and eat people's minds to survive, which goes against the very basis of their mind. These mindshredders generally planeshift to Evil aligned Planes, so that they can inflict suffering on evil creatures at least, but often end up with a scrambled mind of absolutely good and absolutely evil outsiders, making them feral, planeshifting mindshredders addicted to outsider mind, and promptly getting them killed.

[remetagross]

This starts to look like something workable!

[GreatWyrmGold]

PC Mindshredders with less RHD or Mindshredders with actual motivations?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Mivilorn

"What's that you said? You love slight variations of existing animals and only having a regular animal but bigger makes for a very interesting and engaging monster? Great! Have an-elephant-sized doggo!"

Mivilorns are one of the worst example of RHD bloat we've seen so far, with a CR of 11 for 24 RHD. They just don't have any ability that would warrant their play at high level, and only exist as beatsticks to slow the PCs down while the real threats (demons train them as mounts and fodders). They live in Pandemonium, where they are supposedly the demonic version of a normal dog.

- Huge Magical Beast, Chaotic subtype. About expected.
- +20 Str, +2 Dex, +16 Con, -6 Int, +4 Wis, +0 Cha, +12 NA. Completely expected.
- A bite dealing over average damage (4d6+2d4 acid), improved grab, swallow whole. Everything according to expectations.
- Scent, low-light, negligible SR (RHD-7). Is there anything not completely standard with this monster?
- Charging Bite (adds a Reflex save or being swallowed whole to its charge attack, as if the regular swallow whole wasn't enough), free action breath weapon (actually interesting, but the damage is pitiful, only 5d4 acid, and the duration not being in rounds means you can't add Metabreath to it)

The Mivilorns can spit out the opponents they swallowed whole to see if they're dead, presumably to remove their armor and eat them then. Is this something all creatures with Swallow Whole can do? The use case is limited, but it sparked my attention.

Anyway, Mivilorns can be compared, and not all that favorably, to bulettes. They have slightly better stats, Improved Grab and that free action breath weapon, but lack the all-important burrowing speed and especially don't have claws. While the bulette could wield a Mouthpick weapon and still attack with all four claws using its ability, the mivilorn cannot make iteratives at all if it wants to keep its improved grab. Honestly, I think 8 RHD would make for a pretty strong Mivilorn, and let it take something like totemist or monk levels to gain actual attacks. The DLA version has 6 more feats and epic BAB, but all in all is just the same. Maybe DLA-11? Being only one level late in initiator level should make up for the lack of limbs and attack at higher levels. Also, its SR is still crap, even like that, how is it even possible?

Mivilorn War Mount: A Mivilorn with the warbeast template and a few more RHD. 9 RHD, DLA-15.


Had enough of unnecessary big monsters with unnecessary high number of RHD? Because I haven't! Next time, the Necronaut!

[GreatWyrmGold]

The Mivilorn isn't just a big (sorta-)demon doggo. It's a big demon doggo with a really, really big mouth. In fact, I'm not sure it has a stomach—the description of its Swallow Whole ability mentions the mivilorn "chewing on an opponent," and that opponent takes bite damage every round. For all we know, its throat dumps food straight into its intestines.

I kinda wish the design leaned into that more, though. If the mivilorn was a giant head on legs, seventy percent maw, and not just a snub-nosed hound with no neck, it might have had a memorably weird visual design. (I do like the detail that only the mivilorn's mouth has damage reduction, though!)

Interestingly, the mivilorn seems to be able to bite and breath-weapon while chewing on an opponent. Perhaps it has secondary jaws to hold its victims in place?


...biology aside, the most interesting feature of the mivilorn is its unique swallow whole ability. When it charges, it can skip past the intermediate grappling stage and just skip to chewing. Also, by RAW, there is no limit on the number of creatures a mivilorn can swallow—only the number it can swallow at once with Charging Bite. Even if the DM houserules a chewing limit, though, some ubercharger shenanigans would make the mivilorn very good at taking enemies out of combat for a bit (while continuing to snap at other enemies).

The breath weapon is also neat—free action AoE!—but strongly limited daily use means this is more of a backup option for swarms and other weird enemies than a core part of the mivilorn arsenal. Also worth pointing out that, like all quadruped, equipment is gonna be a problem—with the additional complication that if you pick up a mouthpick weapon, you negate the whole point of playing a mivilorn. (Though the mental image of a mivilorn forgetting about its weapon and swallowing it along with a couple of goblins is pretty funny.)

For a big over-RHD'd bruiser, the mivilorn has a surprisingly interesting playstyle.

[remetagross]

Yeah, 8 RHD seem about right. For the DLA, don't forget the Huge size. It's a big asset to martials, I think that warrants being not one but two initiator levels behind a pure initiator class. So DLA-10?

Anyway, I'm sure there must be ways to do funny stuff with that insta swallow whole ability. Like, what if the Mivilorn has swallowed a portable hole, and then swallows a foe carrying a bag of holding? Maybe because the rogue of the party has used Sleight of Hand to actually equip the foe with said bag of holding? Yes, that means the bag of holding, the portable hole (portable whole? Ha!) and all it contains are now "lost in the void forever". Bye bye BBEG of up to Large size.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That does require the BBEG to be carrying his bag of holding when swallowed, though. Plus, I don't want to imagine the gastrointestinal (esophagointestinal?) problems a mivilorn would get from having an astral rift in its guts...

[Beni-Kujaku]

Necronaut

One man once said "Necronauts feel like a set-piece monster, like something you'd see dragging itself across the battlefield when the gate to the Abyss is opened and the heroes are called upon to defend the Shining City. ". And honestly, that might be the most accurate description of the Necronaut. They're not as much meant for an interesting fight than just to set an atmosphere.

Necronauts (necro-juggernauts, they have nothing to do with sailing) are supposed to be enormous bruisers with more HP than most CR 18-20 monsters. Sadly, they're also undead, and as such, despite having a massive 41 Str, have a lower to-hit bonus than a human warrior of its number of HD. It's not even close.


- Gargantuan (!) 32 RHD (ouch!) Undead (ouch!!!) [Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar] (adequate but nothing game-changing.)
- +30 Str, -2 Dex, _ Con, -4 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha. I'm having Dusk Giant flashbacks. With fewer SLAs.
- 4 slams with reach, and 50ft speed. Should allow you to make a decent battlefield control fighter, or at least to easily be able to position yourself for full attacks. Also the damage die is one higher than normal for a Gargantuan slam (the statblock makes it 4d6 only because of Improved Natural Attack, it should be 2d8. Still, going from 2d8 to 4d6 makes you gain 5 damage per slam on average, which is not half bad). It's even able to wield two-handed weapons while still having two free hands. That's great, and probably the best part of the monster.
- DR 15/Lawful and Magic, SR 25 (or HD-7), Unholy Toughness, 20 natural armor. That's actually decent defense (except the SR), especially with Undead immunities to most nonstandard offenses.
- Trample (sure, 50ft speed, Garg size and high damage slams might make it worth it once in a while), Assimilate (you can heal by taking one minute to assimilate an opponent's corpse into your giant skeleton mess of a body, probably irrelevant at this level). Also you're damaged when people try to animate your body into undead, which is probably something someone tried to do sometime.

Overall, the Necronaut is an attempt to create an undead bruiser. They did a pretty good job at it, all in all, but half-BAB will always cripple that kind of character, and the utter lack of combat abilities is crushing. They even lack Improved Grab! Why? That seemed like an obvious ability for a creature litterally grappling a humanoid in its art. Also, I'm assuming here that the person playing this doesn't go Hulking Hurler. No matter the number of RHD, a creature with hands, that size and that strength would break the game immediately (as a reminder, a necronaut with two levels of Hulking Hurler can throw 10-ton boulders for 101d6 damage. With one hand. With 2 hands -or if it somehow finds a 5ft wide spiked ball-, it reaches 199d6, enough to one-shot most Great Wyrms). Still, I wouldn't want the necronaut to be able to cast 9th level maneuvers. Or 8th, really. Taking a level of Barbarian or a few feats for Improved Grab-adjacent abilities is a must, with your BAB+27 bonus to grapple. There's potential for something good here. I guess I'll go with 11 RHD and DLA-15 (only one level below full BAB and initiator level, but 17 levels without class features).
For comparison, this thing with DLA-16 is very close to a necropolitan fighter 16 (only 5 bonus feats instead of 8 compared to its ECL, but more skills and very much more HP), only it has full initiator levels, incredible strength, 4 slams and Garg size. Straight Fighter is obviously very underpowered, and the definition of a class lagging behind as the exponential growth starts to kick in, but with all the other bonuses, I feel like it balances it out and then some.


It has been said before, but I still find it hilarious that a Chaotic Evil Undead constructed by demons in the Abyss doesn't speak Abyssal, but only Infernal. I can't help but imagine that they would just go around in the Blood War insulting devils in Infernal as their only hobby. Next time, we will slightly increase the CR-to-RHD ratio (the necronaut had one of the worst difference between CR and number of RHD, up there with Colossal Vermin and the Tarasque), it will be the Needletooth Swarm!

[GreatWyrmGold]

Necronaut

Necronauts (necro-juggernauts, they have nothing to do with sailing)

I assumed it was necro-dreadnought. Still naval, and I just realized it's spelled differently and you're probably right, but steam instead of sailor.

Assimilate (you can heal by taking one minute to assimilate an opponent's corpse into your giant skeleton mess of a body, probably irrelevant at this level).

If you're the only undead in the party and couldn't convince anyone else to pick up some infinite source of negative energy "damage," it might be handy.

Also you're damaged when people try to animate your body into undead, which is probably something someone tried to do sometime.

This feels like a flavor ability (well, weakness). I guess the idea is that the necronaut isn't as tightly bound to itself as most corporeal undead are? Maybe?

Also, I'm assuming here that the person playing this doesn't go Hulking Hurler. No matter the number of RHD, a creature with hands, that size and that strength would break the game immediately (as a reminder, a necronaut with two levels of Hulking Hurler can throw 10-ton boulders for 101d6 damage. With one hand. With 2 hands -or if it somehow finds a 5ft wide spiked ball-, it reaches 199d6, enough to one-shot most Great Wyrms).

That's fair. Feels like assuming grisgols don't pick the most busted SLA at each level.

[remetagross]

This monster is annoying. I wouldn't let a PC play a Gargantuan creature in most cases, as this is so unbelievably unwieldy for the player to pilot around. I don't quite know what to make of such a creature. I guess no one should ever play that monster at ECL 32 anyway, so DLA doesn't matter much, but for RHDs, this level of defense will be all but impassable for a lot of foes. That +20 to NA in particular. I guess 1 RHD is good enough.