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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    I agree that Siren is a great PrC, with both power and fluff. However, I'm not sure it is best for the harpies. With that many HD, and the levels you invested in Siren, I believe you should expect more than a Save-or-Lose with two saves. If someone resists your sound attack, then you instantly lose almost everything you can do against this creature, since Siren really doesn't give much aside from new effects for your sound attack. I think Siren is better on ghost, who not only has less ECL, but has other things it can do with high charisma. It would be even better on something that can use its sound effect repeatedly, even on the same creatures. A vassal or soldier abeil would be pretty good, if it had better charisma, for example (with Unseelie fey/Magic-blooded, maybe?). In fact, I have not found any creature that could really use the prestige class to its full potential, with both a reuseable sound attack and high charisma. I don't know if you know of one.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-04-09 at 05:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    I don't know of one, sorry. My system mastery isn't that great when it comes to monsters outside of core.

    I agree with much of what you've said, but it still seems like one of the best ways forward with the Harpy to me. Not ideal, sure, but a potent PRC using what they have to offer.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    How about Ardent as a Shrieker Fungus class? The Freedom mantle would give it a 10ft speed, and access to powers that would let it teleport and fly.
    It's still pretty miserable, but it has to be an upgrade on Truenamer.
    Last edited by Dalmosh; 2021-04-10 at 12:20 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmosh View Post
    How about Ardent as a Shrieker Fungus class? The Freedom mantle would give it a 10ft speed, and access to powers that would let it teleport and fly.
    It's still pretty miserable, but it has to be an upgrade on Truenamer.
    I agree that Ardent is better than Psion, since the Shrieker only has -8, and not -10 Wis. But that only means it might reach 10 Wisdom during character creation. So it can't manifest anything until 4th level (except if you use other templates, but then I'm still not sure it needs less than ECL -3). The powers of the Freedom mantle are indeed very good (Dimension Hop will be an incredible boon if you go that way), but the +10ft only applies to existing movement speeds. It helps greatly if you already have Flesh Plant, but it does not replace it. In the end, I still think the Warlock would be a better choice than ardent, but that is close. And I don't think you could consider the shrieker playing as a "normal" Ardent. Its progression will be greatly slowed down and it will become more and more apparent as it levels up. On the other hand, even if the class itself is terrible, the shrieker will truespeak almost as well as anybody else, and the difference will decrease instead of increasing as it levels up. If I have to compare to a class to deduce a level adjustment, I'd rather do it with Truenamer, since there is a chance that with the right adjustment, the shrieker will be equivalent to another 'namer, while whatever the adjustment, a shrieker Ardent will be way stronger than a normal Ardent at the beginning (if it has enough negative LA), then quickly become way weaker (when it starts to not be able to increase its Wis fast enough).
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    The hellish hound who hounds in Hells, it's the Hell Hound! There are few ways to make a name more basic than that. And I'm not gonna lie, it does not make up for that with its stats.

    Hell Hound, 4 RHD: +2 in all physical, -4 in Int and Cha, an average bite attack, and a supernatural ability (breath weapon) that you are probably never going to use. What? Have I searched for "generic chassis for every unplayable monster in the manual" by mistake?

    Outsider RHD are good, but the stats really are as underwhelming as they get. And with they body shape, they won't even be able to wield a weapon, except a mouth weapon. Which will prevent them from using their ability to add 1d6 fire damage when they bite people! At least they are fast (40 ft), have a bit of natural armor, and some racial skill bonuses (power is power, as Xykon said, which would make them decent rogues. And finally, there are the subtypes. Those, I can get behind. Fire immunity and Law+Evil on any weapon it wields? That is not unique, but at this level, it is still pretty rare, and that will be useful up until the high levels. How many parties have been annoyed by DR/Evil and Law because their casters didn't prepare aligned weapons?

    The Hell Hound is a mixed bunch, but in the end I do not think it deserves more than 2 RHD. The chassis is too basic, the ability scores are too low. With DNLA, they might even be really good at DLA-1, but I don't wanna give them a DLA-0, they are way too weak for that.

    Nessian Warhound, 12 RHD: Surely with a chassis that bland, the evolved version will have added some interesting abilities, right? Of course not, who am I kidding. At least the stats have a bit of personnality now. +16 Str, +4 Dex, +10 Con, -6 Int (It's even dumber! How is it even dumber?), -4 Cha. And now the breath weapon deals 3d6 instead of 2! Woo! This is somewhat better than the Hill giant (+2 in all physical stats, full BAB, and the good subtypes), but not incredibly so. I think that makes it worth a pretty weak 8 RHD, and similarly weak DLA-1. There is simply too little in there to make it interesting.

    And with this one, we have completed the first table of monsters from the Monster Manual covered by Inevitability (except dragons). Next time, we start the second table, with the good old Kraken!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-07-22 at 03:23 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    I never understood why WotC made the kraken a highly intelligent monster, capable of cruelty and enslaving other creatures, having a whole society under the sea, instead of the litteral animal that it is in all the folklores it appears in. The guy can even speak common, for Boccob's sake! I don't know, is that a reference to "Octopi are the most likely species to succeed to humans as rulers of the Earth"? Wasn't that already what the Illithids are for?

    Anyway, let's cut trying to understand WotC, since they definitely didn't put a lot of thoughts into this creature, or it wouldn't be this much of a mess.
    -20 Magical Beast RHD, that's a lot but not bad per se.
    -Very good stats, that remind me of the Storm Giant, with godlike +24 Str and +19 Con, plus +10 in all mentals.
    -However, the other abilities are... lackluster. Some SLA only 1/day, with control winds as the only one interesting, but with only CL 9, you are not going to destroy cities. Then you have the poor man's dimension door, with the kraken's jet of water and the poor man's Quickened Darkness with its ink, both of which weirdly seem to function outside of water. But since the kraken only has a (laughably slow) swim speed and no land speed, I believe it is just an oversight from WotC who didn't consider it even could go out of the water. This would not be the first, even on this very creature. For example, lore-wise, it can breathe air, even though it's a squid. But it is stated nowhere in its stat sheet, and you have to go read other editions to know that.
    -Finally, 9 natural attacks is a heck of a lot, only beaten by Hydras pre-epic, and you have Improved Grab and Constrict on all of them. But the arms are really unimpressive, they only deal 1d6 damages (as a comparison, unarmed attack deals 1d8 points of damage for a gargantuan creature), and since they are twice shorter than the tentacles, they will probably not attack often. But if anyone is misguided enough to come nearer than 30ft from you, they will have a really, really hard time not getting grappled. The bite, on the other hand, hits hard, and somehow has a 15ft reach? Why not. But what really no-sells a lot of it is the fact that the tentacle and arms can be sundered. And contrary to normal weapons, they don't have hardness. Only 20 HP for each tentacle means any Fighter will remove your two most powerful attacks on the first turn of combat.

    The kraken's lack of abilities other than its natural attacks seem to lead it to being only a big beatstick, a shame for something with mental stats that good. And even then, it is very vulnerable to a lot of things. People cutting its two tentacles, anything with Freedom of Movement, or just the laws of physics and the DM ruling that you can't jet nor spit ink while outside the water, which would make it even more one-dimensional. The stats are still better than Fire and Cold Giants, and it has full BAB, which, with so many natural attacks, offsets pretty well the impossibility to wield weapons. I suggest 10 RHD for the kraken. That would let it take enough class levels to make something of its mental stats (or possibly break the game by going Ur-Priest, but I'm not responsible for the mistakes of DM that allow this class), while still being pretty balanced at the level it comes into play.

    Edit: After discussions, and considering the fact that grappling has a lot of support that mesh really well with the kraken's advantages, giving it notably more mobility (Scorpion's Grasp), plus the fact that its tentacles can AoO anyone trying to sunder them, 12 RHD would probably be more adapted for the giant squid.

    The DNLA will be more difficult. The first level it will take will give it an epic feat, and with full BAB, there are lots of things one could do. I am going to abstain from giving a DNLA here. Feel free to suggest what you think the giant squid is worth.

    I'll see you next time for the lamia. What is it with creatures that are very different in D&D than in their myths? Harpies, Krakens, Lamia, what is it going to be next, a chimera with the snake head not on its tail? Oh, wait...
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-05-18 at 02:32 PM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Hmm, the Kraken is in the awkward spot of competing against Savage Species' frankly excellent Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus. Much worse stats (especially since you most likely must drop another 2 Dex with the Amphibious Creature template), 3 sizes smaller (which'll hurt grappling), and no SLAs... but only ECL 2. How many HD are stats, a +12 size bonus to combat maneuvers, and SLAs worth? I dunno. 8 more (10 total) is probably about right, since Magical Beast RHD are halfway decent, but may be a bit high. I'll say 9HD total.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    In a weak defence of the Kraken, I will remind you it has Full BaB, high Str, and a +12 size modifier. As printed (no point buy, items, etc) it has a +40 in its opposed roll to avoid getting sundered. Most fighters will have a hard time chopping that off.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Well, since one of you considered the kraken weaker than what I assigned and the other a bit stronger, I am not going to change the number of RHD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    And today, we have "What do you mean, we already did centaurs? Improvise, I like this monster concept!", the Lamia.

    The lamia has well-balanced stats (+8 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +2 Cha), a lot of illusion- and enchantment-based SLAs, and a weird touch attack that drains a little bit of Wisdom. It has a 60 ft movement speed, and is a Large quadruped, so you won't be Bull-rushing it soon.

    However, most of the time, it will use a regular weapon instead of the touch attack. Too weak, and 1/round. I like the SLAs, but even Charm-monster 3/day doesn't make 9 RHD interesting, even less so when the DC is Cha-based and Charisma isn't even the best mental stat of the Lamia.

    Generally, the lamia is just underwhelming for what you could expect from a 9 RHD creature, but it has enough abilities to not be really unuseable. I think I will go with 6 RHD. You have charm-monster one level early compared to bards and wizards, and enough of everything to make a pretty good TWF ranger. With the full BAB, and the increase to CL, I think giving it DLA-1 is fair.

    What do you think about the Lamia and this LA? The lamia is one of the most humanoid-like monsters that we covered here. Would you play it, given the choice? Next time, we have the lizardfolk, who have humanoid Hit Dice, but a much less humanoid face.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-04-15 at 10:41 AM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Maybe I misunderstood you, but from what you wrote it apperas you were thinking bards get 3rd level spells at level 5, which they don't - they get them at 7.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    Maybe I misunderstood you, but from what you wrote it apperas you were thinking bards get 3rd level spells at level 5, which they don't - they get them at 7.
    I brain farted. Hard. Thank you for pointing this out.

    Edit: Corrected.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-04-15 at 10:43 AM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    (Seriously, there is very little that reaches these speeds, and even less at this maneuverability; air elementals have, afaik, the second best non-epic flight speed behind the ghaele)
    You didn't specify maneuverability with that last statement, so I feel obliged to point out that some very fast dragons aren't technically Epic. They tend to have bad maneuverability, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    You could still go Shadow Thief without much problem.
    If we're talking about the same Shadow Thief...why? I see a prestige class which gives some small skill bonuses, a Leadership score boost, and progression of a couple basic rogue abilities. It doesn't look terrible, but I'm not seeing the appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    Now that that's out of the way, let's get on the interesting part...[Shrieker classes]
    I'm not overly familiar with the class, but it seems like Dragonfire Adept would also be a functional choice for the shrieker. Breath weapons don't require attack rolls, and some of the invocations are handy. Particularly notable is the lesser invocation humanoid shape, which lets you perform such incredible feats as moving under your own power as early as 6th level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    ...utterly ridiculous slam attacks (1d6. That is as much as just unarmed attack.)
    Yeah, it's not great, but it's literally just a giant unarmed attack.

    Anyway, see you next time, for "what if Shenzi decided to take up arms against Mufasa", the gnoll!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    Greater Stone, 42 RHD: I'm sorry, what? Why give it 42 RHD if it was to give it basically the same stats as the stone? Why not even increase the Damage Reduction, or make it /Epic?
    It's literally just a stone golem with the normal monster advancement rules applied. Except without the every-4-HD ability score increase.

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    Did you know that Gray Renders have a tendency to just choose people or animals leaving in their surroundings, than act as guardian angels for them, feeding them, and protecting them from harm? Even if they aren't accepted by their "pets" and even if the adopted creatures attack them out of fear, they will continue to protect them from afar and never strike back. Truly, the Lennie Small (Of Mice and Men, John Steinbeck) of Dungeons and Dragons. Must protect!
    I love it, this is great. I kinda want to play a gray render just to roleplay a monstrous Lennie Small in a party of murderhobos.

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    Rant on translating the word "hag" in other languages
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    What happens if a non-flying creature is captivated by a harpy that is flying?
    I feel like the answer to that is the same as "What happens if a non-swimming creature is captivated by a siren that is on an island?", and except without the drowning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    (It's even dumber! How is it even dumber?)
    I suspect the elite array was involved at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    I never understood why WotC made the kraken a highly intelligent monster, capable of cruelty and enslaving other creatures, having a whole society under the sea, instead of the litteral animal that it is in all the folklores it appears in. The guy can even speak common, for Boccob's sake! I don't know, is that a reference to "Octopi are the most likely species to succeed to humans as rulers of the Earth"? Wasn't that already what the Illithids are for?
    I'd say it's probably because there aren't any other classic monsters to apply the "terrifying undersea mastermind" niche to, but then I remembered aboleths exist.

    What is it with creatures that are very different in D&D than in their myths? Harpies, Krakens, Lamia, what is it going to be next, a chimera with the snake head not on its tail? Oh, wait...
    1. Actually, it's a dragon head. YMMV on whether that's worse or not.
    2. I think ye olde D&D writers wanted the clout of recognizable monster names, but didn't find the monsters attached very compelling for some reason. Or they wanted to put their own spin on them?
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    If we're talking about the same Shadow Thief...why? I see a prestige class which gives some small skill bonuses, a Leadership score boost, and progression of a couple basic rogue abilities. It doesn't look terrible, but I'm not seeing the appeal.
    First, thank you for passing by, and for restarting the negative LA trend 4 years ago! This thread might not have existed if it wasn't for you.

    For the Shadow Thief of Amn, this is a nice little prestige class that is meant to replace the "dead" levels of rogue, where you only get Trapfinding with some bonus feats. Since you start with 2 RHD with an Ettercap, you won't get the rogue's special abilities for another 2 levels, which makes it even more interesting to prestige class out. As you can just enter as a rogue 3, it removes the redundancy of uncanny dodge, gives you more sneak attack than straight rogue, and one bonus feat (two bonus minus the feat tax to enter). It also gives you reasonable skill points to go Unseen Seer later. I see little reason to do anything else than STA as my 4th level for an Ettercap rogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I'm not overly familiar with the class, but it seems like Dragonfire Adept would also be a functional choice for the shrieker. Breath weapons don't require attack rolls, and some of the invocations are handy. Particularly notable is the lesser invocation humanoid shape, which lets you perform such incredible feats as moving under your own power as early as 6th level.
    That... Is an extremely good point. I didn't think about that, being not familiar at all with this class, and putting it in my mind as "same as warlock". It has a lot of the same problems, like the invocations being cha-based and a lot of them increasing skills that you simply don't have, but with the con-based at-will breath, and the absolutely incredible movement options of Lesser Draconic Invocations, you might make something out of your shrieker. Still not good, but decent. I think it may even warrant DLA-1 without RHD, and DLA-3 with its RHD (since you don't need skills as much as Truenamers, the supplementary HD will only give you 2/3 of a feat, which will offset the invocation tax of humanoid shape with Extra Invocation). Really, that class is extremely good. I will have to add an edit to the skrieker's reply.

    Edit: ignore most of the previous paragraph the Draconic invocations, same as the warlock invocations, require somatic components. The Shrieker cannot move its body, hence it can't use these invocations, and a Dragonfire Adept with only its breath is even worse than a Truenamer.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    It's literally just a stone golem with the normal monster advancement rules applied. Except without the every-4-HD ability score increase.
    Yes, I noticed that, but that is not less sad. They could have edited the crafting rules to allow the wizard to give more HD to the golem and it would have been way more elegant.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I love it, this is great. I kinda want to play a gray render just to roleplay a monstrous Lennie Small in a party of murderhobos.
    Right!? I love when they go out of their way to give twists to their monsters.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-07-25 at 05:23 AM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    Before saurials, before sarkriths, before even khaastas, even back in 1st edition, there always were lizardfolk. And even though it still describes them very well, that name is... a bit disrespectful. You don't call elves "long-ears", or goblins "greenfolk", do you? Well then again, you call dwarfs "dwarfs" just because they're a bit smaller than humans, and drows are literally known as "dark elves" by most people. So yeah, the common language is pretty heavily human-centric and denies other races most of their culture and specificity. I propose we riot to have dwarves be called whatever they are called in dwarf language.

    Lizardfolk are in a weird situation. On the one hand, they are so obviously stronger than the gnoll that it isn't even funny (three natural attacks and +5 natural armor is absolutely nothing to scoff at, even with -2 Str/+2 Int, compared to the gnoll), but on the other, two Humanoid RHD is still too much for them to be really useable. While I didn't go for it with the gnoll, I believe the Lizardfolk are strong enough that I can use the method PoeticallyPsyco suggested for the gnoll. I will say 1 RHD, +1 LA for the lizardfolk. The RHD is replaced by the first class level, leaving it with +1 LA, which seems acceptable without being immediately better than the gnoll. However, with their 2 RHD, I really think they would be way too strong with DLA-1. Lizardfolk's characteristics are comparable with what a totemist can do at level 1, plus the ability boosts. So I'm going with DLA-0, and sorry to everyone who wanted to play them with DNLA.

    And hey, if you really think they are too weak for their ECL, these are scaled-ones, so you can Pun-Pun cheese to adjust their characteristics as you see fit to get to the exact wanted power level. Isn't that nice? And next time, we will have the Locathas! I can already hear them bubbling in hope.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-04-17 at 12:13 PM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Water we looking at here? I am quite hooked each time I sea this creature, but each time I try to play it, I find myself crying an ocean, and for good reasons: not only are there other fish in the sea, but the Locathahs are also knee-deep in issues.

    First, why are they not Monstrous Humanoids? I know there are otter aquatic races, like the aquatic elves, but at least those could wave a stick at dry land without feeling like a fish out of the water. Locathahs cannot breathe air, and they cannot speak common. So they will have a hard time socializing, even moreso with their fish-eating grin on some artworks. Choosing between taking the Amphibious template and having less dexterity than a whale for the rest of your career or waiting for a custom Air Breathing item and having to stay in the water for your first few levels really feels like being between the devil and the deep blue sea. But hey, they're Humanoids, that's water under the bridge, let's go over the other abilities.

    At least, they have a land speed, even though I'm not sure what they could do with it without air breathing, but that is the value that really takes the wind out of their sail. A 10 ft speed is abyss-mal. Most of the time, you'll be forced to splash helplessly behind your party like a glorified Magikarp.

    Not that I want to show a red herring to divert you, but at least it has somehow decent stats. +2 dexterity (probably used to offset the amphibious template), but also a really rare +2 bonus to intelligence in low-HD monsters, and +2 Wisdom. So that's a net benefit. This is not stellar, but a spellcaster Locathah might be a fish in troubled water.

    Then, still better than a + tuna-tural armor bonus, but still not enough to get one's head above the water, the locatha has +3 NA. That's not just water off a duck's back, though, and an unarmored wizard will appreciate it.

    In the end, the Locathah's chassis is, I think, a bit stronger than most core races, but still far from the power level of optimized LA+0 races. Playing it would not be like shooting fish in a barrel, with its speed and water dependancy, but a determined player could make that ship sail. I think it is fine with 0 RHD, and DLA-1, but if you would eat the fish without wetting your feet, this race is not for you.

    Edit : Note that these LAs are when you take the fish out of the water for an on-land campaign. Most likely, you'll be playing Locathahs in an aquatic campaign, where their major drawback, their awful speed, turns into a pretty good swimming speed of 60 ft (also they can breathe, which is not inconsequential). With that in mind, I think a 1RHD, LA+1 is good, to discourage the wizards and clerics a bit too eager to take this race. And DLA-0. They are very weak with 2 RHD but can still try to hold their own.

    So, water you thinking of the locathah? Would you play it without RHD? How do you plan to offset its deep-runnning (even if deep-walking would be more accurate here) issues? Next time, we have another very fitting monster for a deep-sea adventure. So much so, in fact, that it could fit almost any role. We will rate the ideal treasure chest, the mimic!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-05-18 at 02:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
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    Have you ever played Pokémon Mystery Dungeon? Have you ever found weird that you could find merchant Kecleons far deeper in the dungeon than they should be and than anybody could have explored due to monsters beating you down and forcing you to retreat? Well D&D has an elegant response to that: the mimic. The merchant doesn't fear monsters, because it is itself the monster that would beat you down given the chance. If you seem to weak, it would kill you and take your loot, and if you seem strong enough, it proposes deals: food for information and some of the gold it has stolen from other adventurers. Really, what better way to prevent your players from stealing from the merchant than having the merchant being litterally its own moving, common-speaking vault?

    The mimic is not dumb. It has no mental penalty and +2 Wis. But it is much stronger than it is smart, with +8 Str, +2 Dex, +6 Con and +5 Natural Armor. Pretty good, but still nothing outside of what is expected of a 7 RHD monster.

    It has two arms, which it can use to make two Slam attacks, and which it uses to drag the rest of its body on the ground (yes, this is why it only has a 10 ft movement speed). This could seem like a problem when you want to wield weapons, but when you're as good a shapeshifter as the mimic, this is no real issue. Just create a pocket in your arm where you store your weapons when you have to move, then take them out whenever.

    Now, onto the special abilities. And they are really good ones, all things considered.

    First, the adhesive. Whoever you touch is considered grappled, but they cannot break the grapple in any way until you die or decide to let them go. That means the enemy BSF will not be able to use their two-handed weapon, with nothing they can really do about it. If you somehow get access to dimension door, it can be a nice way to start a battle to just teleport yourself above the enemies and grapple as many of them as you can by falling on them. Plus you deal a bit of damage automatically when grappling someone. This also works on weapons, but it is significantly easier to break the grapple (only a Strength or Escape Artist check, but if someone can even attack you with a melee weapon, that generally means you are able to touch them the next round. The main use of this part of the ability will be when you are already grappling somebody and they try to attack you with a light weapon). It has a weird alcohol weakness, but if the marilith you're fighting takes out a flask of whiskey specifically to counter your mimic, then you can justifiably complain about metagaming.

    And finally, what you were waiting for, the Mimic Shape. Contrary to what Inevitability said, there is a size restriction on it. "The creature cannot substantially alter its size, though." What this means is unclear, but as I see it, you cannot change the size category of the mimic, since its stats are supposed to be the same in any shape it takes. So the maximum size in any direction would be 10 ft or so. It does reduce the amount of cheese you can get away with, but that ability still have a metric ton of versatility. You can go through any opening, including keyholes or under most doors, you can hide as a rock, you can shapeshift into a tendriculos or a big amnizu and laugh as people try to blast you with acid to which you are immune, you can change into a pedestal with an object of any size on it, if your opponents would be wary of a 1.5 meter long chest. You can change into a wall with a ladder, and activate adhesive when people are climbing, or as a cupboard, or a table. You can hide literally anything inside your body by creating pockets.... That is a really good shapechanging ability.

    So with all that, what is the mimic worth? Well, Mimic Shape shines in more RP-heavy situations, but I don't think it would really help in combat. Plus, it is very dependent on the amount of cheese your DM allows and the creativity of the player ("I store Orbs of Acid inside of my body and pour them all on the first enemy I grapple!"). Unbreakable grapple is extremely good, but this is pretty feat-heavy (you could take one level of monk and Choke Hold to be better, for example) and will generally only work on one opponent at a time. In the end, the stats are only subpar and the type is bad, so I suggest 5 RHD for the mimic. I have nothing to compare it to, really, so I'm waiting for your feedback. And the Aberration RHD are not that good, but are still something, so I would be comfortable with DLA-1.


    I really like this monster. The fluff is incredible and it could be extremely fun to play. I think people would be more surprised by hearing the chest talk than just seeing it sprout teeth, and that is pretty funny. If I could convince someone to let me play this even though I'm the one who assigned the LA and already have a reputation of optimizer in my pretty casual gaming group, I would definitely do. But hey, anyway, that might make a pretty good DMPC/encounter (depending on how agressive the players are) in a campaign.
    Next time, we will have the first Undead on this thread, the Mohrg!
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    This one is what DM use to threaten their murder hobo players. If you continue killing everyone on your path, then when you die, you'll be reanimated as a mohrg, and you'll be horribly underpowered for your 14 RHD! Truly the most horrible threat for a power-hungry player.

    The mohrg has almost nothing to justify 14 awful undead RHD. +10 Str and +8 Dex are not bad, but factoring the lack of Con hindering any beatstick career, and the fact that such bonus are not unheard of on 6-7 HD monsters, that is not good either. A slam attack that you will never use, even with Improved Grab (who makes a grappling build on a Medium character anyway). The tongue is interesting. This is a pretty rare natural attack, with a nice ability on it (a shame that you can only use it 1/round and that the DC is charisma-based while the monstr has no Charisma bonus, but that is pretty good). And finally, create spawn is of course skipped, with an asterisk to replace it. And that's all.

    This monster is very one-dimensional in his stat sheet, and not really good at the one thing it does. I don't think undead immunity warrant giving it more than 5 RHD. And with the awful lack of almost everything in undead RHD, I do not want to give it less than LA-6. It would have one less BAB than a fighter-type character, and I think that balances nicely the decent but not great abilities that it has, and the resistance that comes with having 14 RHD as an ECL 8 character (it would be almost immune to turning, for example).

    Next time, we'll cover the translation nightmare that is the Cauchemar! And until then, remember to not play murderhobos, guys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    First, thank you for passing by, and for restarting the negative LA trend 4 years ago! This thread might not have existed if it wasn't for you.
    Oh, thanks!

    Yes, I noticed that, but that is not less sad.
    I wouldn't call it sad so much as weird. Why advance exactly one golem? And if you're doing that, why stone golem? Why not the more powerful iron golem, the classic clay golem, or maybe do something clever with a Huge flesh golem?


    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    Well then again, you call dwarfs "dwarfs" just because they're a bit smaller than humans, and drows are literally known as "dark elves" by most people. So yeah, the common language is pretty heavily human-centric and denies other races most of their culture and specificity. I propose we riot to have dwarves be called whatever they are called in dwarf language.
    Yeah, there's plenty of fantasy dynamics we take for granted that would make pretty neat worldbuilding ideas if we took them seriously.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    At least, [locaths] have a land speed, even though I'm not sure what they could do with it without air breathing...
    Same thing that humans can do with the Swim skill. Well, I guess there's air on top of most water humans can stick their head into, but they can also dive underwater by holding their breath.

    So, water you thinking of the locathah? Would you play it without RHD? How do you plan to offset its deep-runnning (even if deep-walking would be more accurate here) issues?
    First off, you obviously don't play this in a campaign that isn't water-centric. Playing a freaky fish guy in a typical dungeon-crawler isn't completely invalid, but come on. The exact balance of water:land and how the two are combined (coastal city? pirate ship? Atlantis?) is going to strongly influence how I would handle this.
    Beyond that, this isn't a very interesting monster to theorcraft for. Maybe I could sketch a primitive SCOBA apparatus for when you're forced out of the water in the early levels? The chassis is pretty good; you get a few +2 to ability scores, some solid natural armor, and a remarkable swim speed.
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    It can be planar bounded by a wizard of its level! Clearly it must be -0!

    Of course we are not going to compare the Cauchemar to full casters. Even though its most defining feature is its incredible SLAs, it would function much more efficiently as a martial, or a totemist. Its smoke is better if it can be stacked several times in a row, and its stats are extremely combat oriented. Let's have a look:

    • 15 Outsider HD. Another evolved monster who is doomed to -0 by the number of HD, but contrary to normal, the Cauchemar is based on an absolutely broken monster for its number of HD, and is an outsider, so there might be hope for a more reasonable negative LA. Outsider HD are really good, of course, but they're nowhere near class levels, especially at high level like the Cauchemar is.
    • +20 Str, +4 Dex, +14 Con, +6 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha. +16 Natural Armor. That's... Not that good. Don't get me wrong, those are incredible bonuses, especially for a martial with even an Int bonus, but for 15 RHD, that's much lower than a lot of other monsters, especially outsiders.
    • No ability to wield weapons, but 2 good hooves attacks (pretty rare kind of natural attack), and the all-important bite that will let them use a mouth weapon. That is good. Not incredible, just good.
    • A very good (Su) ability that probably should be (Ext) with Smoke, a cloud useable by a free action who debuffs in a cone and grants the Cauchemar concealment in that direction. That is extremely useful in combat and would be too to approach enemies without getting blasted from afar, that is if the Cauchemar didn't have...
    • Astral Projection and Etherealness at will. My gods those are strong. Etherealness is very good by itself. It allows you to pass through walls, not be affected by anything for 20 minutes, infiltrate anything with the whole group, make a swift action attack before the enemy can act by dismissing Etherealness behind their back...
    But the whole kicker here is Astral Projection. One of the most broken spells in the game. Planeshift, Clone, arguably even Fragmented Phylactery, all for the whole group, without material component, by a standard action. Plus a whole lot of abuse of limited-use items, or even of non-limited use items, if your DM allows it. In the original thread, Inevitability didn't consider Astral Projection when judging both forms of the nightmare, mostly because Astral Projection would be utterly ridiculous at ECL 8, but I don't think it is that unrateable around ECL 15, only 2 levels before wizards get it. Still a 9th level spell, but we're at the level where there is so many super strong spells everywhere that this one doesn't make the whole monster broken.

    So, a pretty good fighter with excellent utility, and the ability to enter a lot of prestige classes. What does that make the Cauchemar? Really, with astral projection, etherealness and smoke, I don't think it deserves a negative LA. You'll probably object, but I'm gonna go with 15 RHD and LA +0 as a first draft. Feel free to object. Without Astral Projection, it is way less interesting, but is still a good brawler with interesting abilities and outsider ability scores (low outsider, but still). I think I would have given it 11 RHD and LA -2, since full BAB RHD are less valuable at high level than they are lower.

    This was a weird one to rate, and I can only imagine the difficulty for Inevitability to rate the usual Nightmare (seriously, who names the evolved version of a monster with the translated form of the name of that monster?). I still hope I did an okay job, and we will continue with very-high powered monsters next time with the three flavors of Night Shade!
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I wouldn't call it sad so much as weird. Why advance exactly one golem? And if you're doing that, why stone golem? Why not the more powerful iron golem, the classic clay golem, or maybe do something clever with a Huge flesh golem?
    There is already an advancement rules for golems, with +5,000 gp to the price for each HD above what is listed, and an additional +50,000 per size increase. I suspect the greater stone golem is listed due to shenanigans with printed adventures, like there maybe was a dungeon with a lot of advanced golems with 42 HD, and they wanted to make it iconic enough by giving it its own entry?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    First off, you obviously don't play this in a campaign that isn't water-centric. Playing a freaky fish guy in a typical dungeon-crawler isn't completely invalid, but come on. The exact balance of water:land and how the two are combined (coastal city? pirate ship? Atlantis?) is going to strongly influence how I would handle this.
    Beyond that, this isn't a very interesting monster to theorcraft for. Maybe I could sketch a primitive SCOBA apparatus for when you're forced out of the water in the early levels? The chassis is pretty good; you get a few +2 to ability scores, some solid natural armor, and a remarkable swim speed.
    That is a good point. I generally rate these monsters as if they were going to be used in a classic campaign, since I consider not everybody in the party will take aquatic monsters, and they will try to keep away from the water as much as possible (as I always say, he is a fool the one who accepts to fight a water elemental in the water, and that applies to nigh on every aquatic monster). If the campaign is entirely aquatic, or at least most of it is spent underwater, then the LA would probably change, since the locathah becomes one of the only low-level classes players could choose that can natively breathe underwater.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    A very good (Su) ability that probably should be (Ext) with Smoke...
    I'm pretty sure the eternally-smoking hooves are magical actually. Handy magic, but definitely magic.

    But the whole kicker here is Astral Projection. One of the most broken spells in the game.
    I see what they were trying to do; it matches up very well with the classic image of astral projection. That said, it matches up very poorly with going to physical places that you can physically go to.
    By level 15 it's ratable, but I don't blame Inevitability for leaving it out of both nightmares' ratings. Especially since it's such an infamously busted spell. (Bright side, it gives everyone on the team basically equal benefits, so if you're wrong the cauchemar won't steal the show.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    If the campaign is entirely aquatic, or at least most of it is spent underwater, then the LA would probably change, since the locathah becomes one of the only low-level classes players could choose that can natively breathe underwater.
    Aquatic elf, lacedon (ghoul), merfolk, merrow (ogre), nixie, sahuagin, triton. Arguably all the low-level undead/constructs; maybe the kapoacinth (gargoyle), scrag (troll), and sea hag (hag). Definitely the dozen or so low-CR aquatic animals, if you can find a way to make them intelligent. Don't get me wrong, there's fewer in the water than on land, but not just a few.

    I suppose I can get behind the idea that locaths would have radically different level adjustments in land-based and aquatic campaigns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I'm pretty sure the eternally-smoking hooves are magical actually. Handy magic, but definitely magic.
    That's not the hooves, only the Nightmare's breath when it is out of breath. Similarly to a heavy smoker breathing their cigarette smoke on somebody. The fact that it has the insides on fire is maybe (Su), explaining the rating of the ability, but the action itself is just breathing on the opponent. That kinda reminds me of the Horse God in Toriko, who can compress air in his lungs, and fights by just blowing extremely high pressure air on the opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Aquatic elf, lacedon (ghoul), merfolk, merrow (ogre), nixie, sahuagin, triton. Arguably all the low-level undead/constructs; maybe the kapoacinth (gargoyle), scrag (troll), and sea hag (hag). Definitely the dozen or so low-CR aquatic animals, if you can find a way to make them intelligent. Don't get me wrong, there's fewer in the water than on land, but not just a few.

    I suppose I can get behind the idea that locaths would have radically different level adjustments in land-based and aquatic campaigns.
    Just comparing it to the aquatic elf (LA+0) or the merfolk (very weak LA+1), I think I would go with 1 RHD, or 0 RHD, LA+1 in an aquatic campaign. The Locathah makes for a pretty good caster if it has a decent speed. And if you don't want to lose too many caster levels, it becomes the default choice (aquatic elf is just too underwhelming).
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
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    Read, if you will, the Monster Manual, and look for the edgiest monster imaginable. "Powerful Undead composed of equal parts darkness and absolute evil"? Yep, that's the one, the Nightshade. Now read its tactics. "Their tactics vary according to their abilities, but they all make liberal use of Haste." That, my friends, is a clear leftover of the age of 3rd edition, before the 3.5 update. At the time, Haste was not only single target, but allowed the target to use one extra standard action in their turn, including casting SLAs or spells! This spell was so potent that they felt the need to put it on every high-level monster to offset a bit the action economy.

    The Nightshades were supposed to always cast this before combat (why wouldn't they, it didn't even cost them an action), and so were supposed to have two standard action per round to attack and use SLAs. Why does it matter to us? You see these unupdated CRs? 14 for the Nightwing, 16 for the Nightwalker and 18 for the Nightcrawler? That means these CRs are fake! Fake, I say! Their abilities are updated, but they really are in the same ballpark as non-hasted 3.0 nightshades, so there's that. They even removed their cool "Immunity to all spells below 6th level" to replace it with a much more boring SR (6 to 10 +RHD).

    So, what have we got here. Summon Undead is irrelevant at this level, even more so when the summoned undead takes 1d10 rounds to appear. Desecrating Aura is pretty good actually. +2 on a lot of things and effective immunity to turn undead is pretty necessary for high-level undeads. Aversion to sunlight is a drawback, but also pretty irrelevant at this level. Lots of SLAs, with the interesting ones being at-will Haste and Greater Dispel Magic, and 1/day Finger of death and Plane Shift. Good stuff here.

    However, they're Undead. Good immunity at low levels, bad HP and BAB at high-level. That's somehow compensated by the desecrating aura, but that still hurts, since Nightshades generally want to be in melee..

    Nightcrawler, 25 RHD: Look at that +38 Strength! That is enormous (Gargantuan, in fact)! A nasty bite with poison, and Swallow Whole (with his stomach acids dealing negative levels) make for a dangerous foe. Does it deserve to be epic, though? I don't think so. This is a big stupid fighter, after all. A good BSF with some pretty useful SLAs, but most of the time you'll just rush the opponent to eat it. Also, you get a burrow speed. Make what you want of this information. Still, if you want to play an undead purple worm 40 ft long, then I think 19 RHD or so is pretty balanced. 1 levels is just enough to give it a tiny bit of personnality and customization. Maybe it deserves a bit more than that, but I feel generous. Since it doesn't create an epic monster in a non-epic game, I think I can also give it a DNLA. Epic levels are generally better than non-epic ones, so I don't think the Nightcrawler will get enough leverage for those last 5 RHD. DLA-4 for ECL 21 is acceptable in my opinion (if there is no Epic Magic involved, of course). It only makes it lose one feat, in the end.

    Nightwalker, 21 RHD: Oh no, it has legs now! But it also has arms. So it can have rings, and boots, and whatever magic items you like. 10 Str less than the crawler, but a weird SoL gaze that could decimate a non-immune to fear party. Then again, lots of things are immune to fear at these levels. Crush Items allows it to destroy any magic item, which is interesting (are there magic items that are said to be indestructible, and would break the game if they weren't?) but is clearly supposed to harm a PC in a dungeon by destroying their weapons before the BBEG. For a party, this is just a way to destroy your own loot and doesn't really help you since you already need to have disarmed your opponent for it to work. This really doesn't have the focused abilities of the crawler, but just the body shape helps a lot. I think 15 RHD is pretty good here. Maybe a bit weak? The gaze really helps it during the first turn, and there are still interesting abilities in there.

    Nightwing, 17 RHD: And the non-epic one of the bunch, who really should have been called Nightflyer, to fit the theme. Losing a lot of Str puts it around Giants tier, or lower, and it loses Greater Dispel Magic. But it has the highest SR of the three, with 10+HD, and Magic Drain is a pretty funny tool. Since you generally want to have as much special abilities as possible, most high-level weapons are +1 plus special abilities. Magic Drain will make them a normal masterwork item in one application. (Granted DC 22 is not that high, but that's pretty cool. Again, more of a DM tool than a player one, though. And you don't even have a humanoid shape. I don't think it deserves much more than 11 RHD. You can compare it with the Iron Golem, who hits harder and has infinite SR, but much less versatility and doesn't fly. Undead RHD are really bad, though, and DLA-4 seems warranted.

    Weird creatures, these ones, much more adapted as enemies than PCs. But you have to acknowledge that the nightwalker art is freaking awesome. Next time, we'll happily blub blub with the Oozes!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-05-05 at 04:18 AM.
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    You know how slimes are always the weakest monsters in RPGs? Well WotC tried its best to counteract this trend and make some strong slimes. And they utterly failed.

    Immunity to crits and sneak attacks, blindsight, immunity to mind-affecting, polymorph, paralysis, sleep, stun and probably social events. What could possibly go wrong?

    Well, no good save, no full BAB, 2+Int (so, 1 skill point if sentry ooze or half-fiend), and a general lack of anything worthwhile. That makes all monster manual oozes too underwhelming to be interesting to play (except Gelatinous Cube. Everybody loves and respect the Gelatinous Cube, and if somebody disagrees, he can fight me). Their stats are all incredibly similar to each other, to the point that they are almost indistinguishable from just advanced versions of each other (again, except the glorious Gelatinous Cube). No int, -10 Dex, Wis, and Cha, decent Str and at least +10 Con, going to +18 for the elder black pudding. Not quite as restrictive as the shrieker, but you're not going to do anything except being a martial, probably a barbarian, even more so with the grappling focus of their ability. Some levels in Dragonfire Adept, to get an acceptable anatomy and have magic items, could be pretty interesting too.

    Some Oozes have the split special ability, which we disregard here. Inevitability explained why.

    Black Pudding, 10 RHD: +6 Str, +12 Con. I don't understand how the slam and constrict damages are calculated, don't ask me. A bit more stats than the Gelatinous Cube, but you remove the two abilities that made it interesting, and replace them with Improved Grab and Constrict. Is it worth 4RHD? Maybe even 3. Let's go with 3 RHD. Huge size is good for a grappler, and despite the various drawbacks (handicaps?). Also, DLA-5. I see no reason to not allow a BAB higher than its ECL when you have four unusable stats.

    Elder Black Pudding, 20 RHD: +14 Str, +18 Con. Same as the greater stone golem, just an advanced version of the previous one, with even more nonsense in the slam and constrict damage. I'd say 5 RHD. That makes it the lowest-ECL Gargantuan monster, but it doesn't have much to go with it, so making it an almost unbeatable grappler at this level seems to be fair. DLA-11 is the biggest DNLA I have given, but with these mental stats, you can compare with the Dire Shark and see that the black pudding still doesn't make the cut. Are there broken prestige classes that you can enter easily if you have +15 BAB at level 9?

    Gray Ooze, 3 RHD: +2 Str, +10 Con. A Medium Grappler, what could possibly go wrong. The ooze immunities make almost the whole worth of this, but they are good enough that I think this needs 1 RHD, LA+1 and DLA-1.

    Ochre Jelly, 6 RHD: +4 Str, +12 Con. Large, a bit better, but generally the same. 2 RHD, DLA-3.


    This is just sad. They're almost as boring as they are useless. And they are very useless. Next time, we will see the creature that is more well-known because there is a prison in which they are sometimes thrown, the Otyugh! And until then, never forget to praise the Gelatinous Cube 🙌!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2023-08-03 at 10:43 AM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    I'll comment mainly on the Kraken, as Grapplers have a startlingly intense frontloading and fairly limited ability to gain advantage over monsters like the Kraken. Basically, after PsyWar 3/Totemist 2/Barbarian 1 (plus Practiced Manifester and Open Chakra (Arms)), you've gotten the vast majority of non-PRC Grapple output, and the PRCs are being very harshly shamed by your +24 Strength, Gargantuan size, eight Improved Grab triggers, and Natural Attack derived Constrict.

    Looking over a Grappling handbook, a Dragonborn Azurin Totem Rager Black Blood Cultist, one of the more extreme Grapple pushes in the game, caps at +63. With Rage, an assigned 18, a +5 Tome, and +6 belt, it has only 6 more strength than your base statblock, ends up with 5 less BAB, gets +8 from feats you have zero complications taking, and +12 from a single Soulmeld.

    A PC Kraken with no items or class levels can readily compare to this rather heavily optimized and kitted out PC grappler, by assigning an 18 to Strength, getting Improved Grapple, then Shape Soulmeld (Girallon Arms) and acquiring 4 Essentia from Bonus Essentia and two +1 Essentia feats, for +60 to Grapple checks. And can make twice as many per round. If you let this thing have 9 levels or more, it will defile the game with Black Blood Cultist 8 making every successful Grapple check set off every Natural Attack you have. All 10-12 of them. Of which 6-8 instigate Grapple checks when used as attacks (depending on if the Claws overlap your Arms or not).

    I suggest 12 RHD, giving access to 3rd-level PsyWar powers and Totem Rager 5's duration extension while making Black Blood Cultist 8 nearly squaring your damage potential be your entry to Epic, and agree with not giving it a direct negative level adjustment because Legendary Wrestler is a +10 and, as demonstrated above, it's actually a well above-curve Grappler with optimized PCs just by making it a PC, even if it gets to do literally nothing but Grapple. Being that it's Gargantuan with eight limbs, this is a quite possible winning strategy as far as beatsticks go, even if your raw damage potential isn't as dumb as an Ubercharger.
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2021-05-12 at 04:06 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    I'll comment mainly on the Kraken, as Grapplers have a startlingly intense frontloading and fairly limited ability to gain advantage over monsters like the Kraken. Basically, after PsyWar 3/Totemist 2/Barbarian 1 (plus Practiced Manifester and Open Chakra (Arms)), you've gotten the vast majority of non-PRC Grapple output, and the PRCs are being very harshly shamed by your +24 Strength, Gargantuan size, eight Improved Grab triggers, and Natural Attack derived Constrict.

    Looking over a Grappling handbook, a Dragonborn Azurin Totem Rager Black Blood Cultist, one of the more extreme Grapple pushes in the game, caps at +63. With Rage, an assigned 18, a +5 Tome, and +6 belt, it has only 6 more strength than your base statblock, ends up with 5 less BAB, gets +8 from feats you have zero complications taking, and +12 from a single Soulmeld.

    A PC Kraken with no items or class levels can readily compare to this rather heavily optimized and kitted out PC grappler, by assigning an 18 to Strength, getting Improved Grapple, then Shape Soulmeld (Girallon Arms) and acquiring 4 Essentia from Bonus Essentia and two +1 Essentia feats, for +60 to Grapple checks. And can make twice as many per round. If you let this thing have 9 levels or more, it will defile the game with Black Blood Cultist 8 making every successful Grapple check set off every Natural Attack you have. All 10-12 of them. Of which 6-8 instigate Grapple checks when used as attacks (depending on if the Claws overlap your Arms or not).

    I suggest 12 RHD, giving access to 3rd-level PsyWar powers and Totem Rager 5's duration extension while making Black Blood Cultist 8 nearly squaring your damage potential be your entry to Epic, and agree with not giving it a direct negative level adjustment because Legendary Wrestler is a +10 and, as demonstrated above, it's actually a well above-curve Grappler with optimized PCs just by making it a PC, even if it gets to do literally nothing but Grapple. Being that it's Gargantuan with eight limbs, this is a quite possible winning strategy as far as beatsticks go, even if your raw damage potential isn't as dumb as an Ubercharger.
    I hadn't actually given much thought to the Kraken as a grappler (which seems weird, but I'm not used to thinking of grappling as a strong strategy once you get to high level), but it actually sidesteps one of the big problems (can only grapple up to one size above your own) and really benefits from of a few of the weirder grappling tricks.

    Scorpion's Grasp - at first glance, this is redundant with Improved Grab, but unlike IG it doesn't drag the target into your space. Instead it moves you into theirs, which is a frankly fantastic boost to mobility on the Kraken (also working on a full-attack, no less). Also unlike IG, works on any natural attack, including the Kraken's beak and any natural weapons granted by Totemist.

    One limbed grappling - When grappled, you lose your Dex bonus versus anyone that you're not grappling (so, everyone but the person that grappled you) and your reach becomes zero. However, if you have Improved Grab or Scorpion's Grasp, you can conduct a grapple started with that ability using only one hand. You take a -20 penalty (mitigatable with the (Improved) Multigrab feat pair), but don't count as grappled yourself. So you get to keep your reach, letting you grapple as many opponents as you have limbs. For most creatures (including the Kraken), this only works on opponents smaller than you, but for the Kraken that's barely a problem, and the extra limbs mean you can lock down the whole battlefield.

    Sneak Attack - So that mention of Dex above wasn't an idle comment. One-limbed grapple someone, and all your attacks against them start benefiting from Sneak Attack.


    Being so many HD behind is really going to hurt your essentia and chakra binds if you go that route (ironically, the grappling soulmeld this will likely affect most is Kraken Mantle). You also still lack any way to deal with magic like dimension jumper and freedom of movement... though I guess not being as dependent on magic for your grappling means you could just travel in an antimagic field.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2021-05-12 at 07:46 PM.
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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Thank you for both of your inputs. I really love the scorpion's grasp on the kraken. You can Spider-man your way from enemy to enemy, grappling lots of them from 120 ft and keeping them with you as you roam the battlefield. Really, it almost seems like this was designed for the kraken to use (even though the physics of this are way less than unquestionable). Why would you take Kraken Mantle anyway? A Shape Soulmeld (Girallon Arms) is much more efficient and doesn't take any class level from you (note that the totem chakra is not really interesting, since you'd much rather grab from 120ft away than wait for them to come nearer than 30 ft to use the supplementary arms). Plus you have a high essentia capacity with all your HDs so you can get interesting bonuses.

    And I didn't know of Black Blood Cultist, but those are some really nasty damages (10d6+6d8+128=190 damages per grab if you have 18 Str before modifiers), per grab. Still, this is 20th level. If anyone doesn't have permanent Freedom of Movement at this level, that's more their bad than you being broken. But I agree that there shouldn't be such a power bump from just one level (except if that level is the 21st).

    In the end, with three people moving to increase the kraken's number of HD, I think 12 RHD is good. Less versatility than a Storm Giant, but so much more damage if it can pull off its trick. I even wonder if 13 RHD would not be warranted. One of the major things that pulled the kraken back is its lack of mobility, and Scorpion's Grasp remedies that pretty well. More than well in fact. You would still be worried about Freedom of Movement, and Antimagic Field doesn't help that. It is a 10 ft emanation, and you try to grapple from 120ft away. But at this mid-high level, there is little chance that every one of your enemies will have it, so you can grab one of them, pull yourself to the opposing party, and pummel the FoM ones with your 8 other natural weapons. What do you think?
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    If you're going hard into incarnum grappling, it only takes one feat (Double Chakra) to get both Girallon Arms (+2 and +2/essentia) and Kraken Mantle (+1/essentia + Constrict) for a nice x1.5 to your bonus and some damage. A straight Totemist grappler would probably grab it at 12 level (after getting Double Chakra (totem) at 9th). If they start with 12HD, the Kraken can't even get Open Lesser Chakra until ECL 15, and can't get Double Chakra until ECL 21 even if they go straight Totemist (at least at this point they'll have naturally unlocked the lesser chakras), and they'd probably want to spend that feat on either Open Epic Chakra or Double Chakra (totem).

    And yeah, you don't really need to bind Girallon Arms to the Totem like most Totemists, but it is still 4 extra natural attacks for attacking, holding enemies, and constricting. It's a strong contender for the totem bind even on the Kraken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
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  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    If you're going hard into incarnum grappling, it only takes one feat (Double Chakra) to get both Girallon Arms (+2 and +2/essentia) and Kraken Mantle (+1/essentia + Constrict) for a nice x1.5 to your bonus and some damage. A straight Totemist grappler would probably grab it at 12 level (after getting Double Chakra (totem) at 9th). If they start with 12HD, the Kraken can't even get Open Lesser Chakra until ECL 15, and can't get Double Chakra until ECL 21 even if they go straight Totemist (at least at this point they'll have naturally unlocked the lesser chakras), and they'd probably want to spend that feat on either Open Epic Chakra or Double Chakra (totem).

    And yeah, you don't really need to bind Girallon Arms to the Totem like most Totemists, but it is still 4 extra natural attacks for attacking, holding enemies, and constricting. It's a strong contender for the totem bind even on the Kraken.
    I'm pretty sure racial hit dice count for character level requirements, don't they? If not, what about racial progression?

    Character Level: The total number of class levels you have in all your classes, plus any racial Hit Dice you have... <snip> Character
    levels determine when you gain feats and ability score increases (see Table 3-2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits in the Player’s Handbook). Any feat you get by virtue of your character level is in addition to any bonus feats from your class levels.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-05-13 at 11:00 AM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

    Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! One deadly attack is all it takes!
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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