Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'm pretty sure racial hit dice count for character level requirements, don't they? If not, what about racial progression?

Character Level: The total number of class levels you have in all your classes, plus any racial Hit Dice you have... <snip> Character
levels determine when you gain feats and ability score increases (see Table 3-2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits in the Player’s Handbook). Any feat you get by virtue of your character level is in addition to any bonus feats from your class levels.

Yes, but Double Chakra has a minimum meldshaper level of 9 (and there's no way to boost that that I know of), and Open Lesser Chakra requires you to be a meldshaper, which the Kraken can't be until its first level (ECL 13 with 12 RHD) unless you spend another feat on Shape Soulmeld.

I don't know if having a slow start with meldshaping is worth being knocked back down to 11 HD, but I thought it was worth pointing out.

[Morphic tide]

Yes, but Double Chakra has a minimum meldshaper level of 9 (and there's no way to boost that that I know of), and Open Lesser Chakra requires you to be a meldshaper, which the Kraken can't be until its first level (ECL 13 with 12 RHD) unless you spend another feat on Shape Soulmeld.

I don't know if having a slow start with meldshaping is worth being knocked back down to 11 HD, but I thought it was worth pointing out.

...At a quick check, no, Open Lesser Chakra doesn't have a Meldshaper level requirement, just character level, and it has no tag that could give it an external mechanic (the [Incarnum] tag is for receptacle feats). This is probably due to the existence of rules for Binding Magic Items to Chakras, even if the described list is very limited.

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Also, a general trend I'm noticing is that there's a massive underselling of the basic number properties, given mention of handing Undead with enormous Strength bonuses full BAB. Doing that actually gives them an enormous attack roll bonus. In general, you shouldn't ever reduce hit dice to match CR, because that's where the monster's intended to be balanced against a lone PC in its niche with its Natural Armor and ability scores. By default. As a PC, you then give it the entire pile of class-independent PC options for numbers that it's balanced to mostly already include, causing a horrible double-dipping phenomenon on parts of durability and offenses, especially when they have Constitution scores.

For example, the Ettin has +12 Strength and +4 Con as a PC, alongside +7 AC and +10 ft. speed, in exchange for -2 Dexterity and -4 Intelligence. The amount of hit dice you give needs to take into account how many levels what stays is worth, and getting at least +3 to attack rolls and +6 to damage rolls is no small thing. Relative to the Ogre, they have +4 Charisma, +2 Natural Armor, and have +4 on two-weapon fighting with one-handed weapons. The latter two most definitely sound like material for some further RHD, as that's a 10% reduction in enemy accuracy and 20% increase in your own.

In a similar vein, the Locath is ultimately significantly stronger than standard races in practice if you're running an aquatic campaign where they meet their basic functionality. Compared to the Aquatic Elf, they have +4 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Natural Armor, and +20 ft. speed. Definitely seems worth something, even if I agree it's not two Humanoid RHD. Remember, the LAs should include the environmental concerns when they're readily campaign-level like Aquatic restrictions, just as we judge to similar-niche conventional characters.

On to the Mohrg that is the impetus for this more thorough review: +10 Strength, +8 Dex, +9 Natural Armor. That's +5 to attack and damage over however much BAB you lose for being Undead, and a lunatic +13 AC. That's well over half the die, to the point you can axe an entire AC item and still be shrugging off most attack-roll based harm. This thing is CR 8 for a reason: You make this thing a PC, give a 14 in chargen Dex, throw it in a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, and now you have AC 30. Before the Necklace of Natural Armor (which stacks because it's an Enhancement bonus for some God-forsaken reason), before the Ring of Protection, before any applicable class features, you have enough armor class to demand a +12 to hit to exit crits-only territory. The Stone Giant at CR 8 gets a +17. This thing needs to be no less than ECL 10 or else it's shrugging off anything resembling a bruiser from being so hard to hit.

For the Cauchemar over the Nightmare that Inevitability gave ECL 8: +12 Strength, +6 Con, +4 Int, +3 Natural Armor, and one size larger. This is +5 to attack rolls and +6 to damage, +3 hp/level, and a 10% reduction in chance to be hit. Over what's already a nigh-immortal beatstick before the SLAs. Though ultimately I feel no more than 13 RHD appropriate here for the opposite reason as the Kraken, though a different build, as it gives the room for Totemist 2/Barbarian 1/Totem Rager 4 to get the Least Chakras, and ECL 13 is also late enough for Astral Projection to be ratable as a "One Big Spell" since the shenanigans of at-will access to its intended use is mostly on point with available Contingency abuses. Less damage, mind-numbing boatload of durability, basically monster PCs in a nutshell here, and this one's supposed to be a mount!

The Nightshades share in the Natural Armor problem, as well as the Strength issue, but they seem to be just the norm of "numbers we should be crunching that we don't" and I'm kinda tired at this point. Oozes provide us the rare opposite as they appear to be one of a very select few monsters in the entire game that really is just a bag of HP for defenses.

*checks Archive* So, next up seems to be the Otyugh:

-10 ft. speed, +8 Natural Armor, +2 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha, as well as two 1d6 primary Natural Attacks with Improved Grab and applying their damage as Constrict, and a 1d4 damage secondary Natural Attack. Net -6 ability scores, but your bonuses alongside Large size do put you on course for being a quite solid Grappler. At five RHD, you can trade three Barbarian levels and two Black Blood Cultist levels from the comparison point I used for the Kraken appears to end up with the following:

Costs: +2 BAB, +2 in-rage Strength and Constitution, +1/day Rage, out-of-Rage Black Blood Cultist attacks, +2 DR/Silver, 1 Essentia (most significant shortfall is likely 10 ft. teleport from Blink Shirt), 1 feat (+2 Grapple for the you-ironically-don't-qualify Abberation Blood(Flexible Limbs)), Dragonborn selection (likely inbuilt 30 ft. Flight), -12 HP from 1st-level, four more d8 HD over the d12s you replaced, +3 Fort save, Uncanny Dodge.

Gains: +4 Size bonus to Grapple, two 1d6+Improved Grab natural attacks, slightly worse always-on Bite, +2 Dexterity (Dragonborn have a -2), +8 Natural Armor, +4 Will save

So, net result here seems to be an appropriate sidegrade to that fairly solid optimization, losing out on mobility for an edge in damage and ironically more attempts able to be made, and a lot harder time being hit by conventional beatsticks. Saves are a wash, but Wisdom's harder to spare the resources to boost than your incidental Fortitude, so you're probably seeing an upside in that save shift.

Feel free to disagree (and definitely provide your own "proper" entry if you're doing this the early thread way, I'm not touching the pile of calculations to measure DNLA), but I'm really sensitive about Natural Armor screwing with game math. And if the DM starts shoveling Freedom of Movement at you in improbable masses, you're a Large Totemist with two extra Natural Attacks, you have alternatives.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I agree that I may not rate natural armor justly. I believe that beatstick will always be beaten by casters and casters will always be beaten by beatsticks. You don't try to hit the opposing warrior with yours, since if you don't one-shot it, it will have almost no drawbacks. And you rarely cast your SoL on the caster, who has high will saves and can probably heal themselves. And on the other hand, I highly value full BAB, class features and skill points. Most of the monsters we're covering here are martial types. And martials really depend on entering prestige classes as early as possible. With 1 skill point per level for a lot of the creatures covered for the first few levels, that is pretty difficult.

That said, I agree ettins should be higher. I didn't consider that they could wield two one-handed weapons and only saw the fact that most two-weapon fighting requires feats that you simply can't take, and would be redundant anyway. But if we don't consider higher levels, the damage output of a 4 RHD ettin is almost twice the one from a standard barbarian. You are squishier against spells, and barbarians have good ACF and support, but you have a whopping 10 AC more and reach. I agree that it should warrant 5 RHD and being 2 BAB late. More than that would really hurt the guy.

Spoiler: Comparison Ettin/Barbarian

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18 Str, 14 Con, 12 Dex, 10 Int
Raging Water orc barbarian : +8 Str, +6 Con, -2 Int, Wis and Cha, -2 AC
Ettin : +12 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Int

WOB : 17+3x11.5=51 PV (43 without rage), BAB+4, +12 to-hit, greataxe : 1d12+9, AC 14 (10+5 armor-2 rage+1 Dex). DPR against 18 AC opponent : 10.5 ; 21 skill points
Ett : 12+3x8.5=37 PV, BAB+3, +12 to-hit, 2 swords : 1d10+10x2, or 3d6+15 (31 vs 26), AC 24 (10-1 size+0 Dex+7nat+8armor), DPR against 18 AC opponent : 21 or 18 ; 7 skill points

For the Mohrg, however, I'm not so sure. The CR argument doesn't work for RHDR, since really most of that CR is because of its absurd number of RHD that also affect the DC of its paralysis. (Also, I really believe it is over-CR'ed, even with 14 HD) A martial undead just doesn't work, most of the time, with the Con hit, the half-BAB, and of course the low skill points per level (still not as bad as others, granted, what with Awaken undead being able to go up to 10 Int). And what you said about the Otyugh is more of a counter-argument that otherwise. Monsters don't have alternatives. Most monsters, especially high-HD, low-CR ones, are built around one gimmick at best (oozes, ettins) and no gimmick at all sometimes (the mohrg). They may hit harder (debatable for the mohrg) and be harder to hit with melee weapons, but that doesn't make a PC able to contribute efficiently in a party. Fighters have feat chain that allow them to do shenanigans, barbarians have support all-around and good acf, but the mohrg has 5 RHD for numbers only, and numbers that people will just bypass most of the time. This is an undead, you don't hit it with a sword, you burn it to the ground or turn it. See what I'm saying? You can be pretty good at defense, if you don't have something you can do, in or out-of combat, there's no reason anybody would play you, and opponents will just attack your allies instead of you, or bypass your immunities somehow. That's the difference between a good monster and a good PC. PCs need to do something, monsters just have to be there. Maybe I could see it be 6 RHD/LA-5, but not more.

Cauchemar and Nightshades are a different issue. It's not that I didn't crunch the numbers, it's that there are so many possible builds at this level that you can't crunch the numbers. People have prestige classes, 5 to 8th level spells... And AC starts to become irrelevant, as AC bonuses struggle to keep up with to-hit. I had to go with my gut for everything higher than 12 RHD, and just roughly compare to what's in the original threads.

Locathah has already been mentioned, and I am conscious that the proposed LA is more for a land campaign than an aquatic one, where you will probably choose the locathah. In this case, I completely agree it should be a bit higher, like 1 RHD, +1 LA (you replace the HD by your first level), and DLA-0, but it will be very weak.

For the otyugh, I will do it later, but I really don't think it needs 5 RHD. It's just a grappler with more negative stats than bonuses and really lackluster natural weapons. +8 natural armor is not bad, but not enough to be 2 BAB late.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Read, if you will, the Monster Manual, and look for the edgiest monster imaginable. "Powerful Undead composed of equal parts darkness and absolute evil"? Yep, that's the one, the Nightshade.

They're in the interesting position of being "undead" who were never alive. Or dead, I assume.

So, what have we got here. Summon Undead is irrelevant at this level, even more so when the summoned undead takes 1d10 rounds to appear.

PCs can summon the undead ahead of time without much issue; they stick around for an hour, after all. The fact that the weakest nightshade has 17 HD and the strongest summon is CR 11 does put a bit of a damper on them, though.
Of course, they're all incorporeal and do either Strength damage or Constitution drain. If you fight semi-epic enemies with no way of fighting incorporeal enemies, they can be pretty handy; ~8-12 shadows dealing ~3-4 Strength damage each most turns will reduce most big stupid brutes to immobile mounds of meat pretty quickly.
Of course, if the DM regularly throws those at you at this level, A. odds are other players also have solutions and B. the DM is either incompetent or letting you have a success.

(are there magic items that are said to be indestructible, and would break the game if they weren't?)

Mostly your cursed-MacGuffin types, and most of those would be artifacts.

Nightwing, 17 RHD: And the non-epic one of the bunch, who really should have been called Nightflyer, to fit the theme.

And you wouldn't have an ex-Robin looking at you funny.

But you have to acknowledge that the nightwalker art is freaking awesome.

I wish we got similar art of the other two.

That makes all monster manual oozes too underwhelming to be interesting to play (except Gelatinous Cube. Everybody loves and respect the Gelatinous Cube, and if somebody disagrees, he can fight me).

I can't see your point.
Jokes aside, the giant transparent acid-flavored Jello cubes are ridiculous yet iconic. D&D should have some way to let players play/use these iconic monsters.

Also, DLA-4. I see no reason to not allow a BAB higher than its ECL when you have four unusable stats.

Yeah. They've lost so much, let them keep that.

Gray Ooze

Gray oozes look like wet patches of stone, which isn't as good as being a transparent etc cube but it's probably a second place as far as ooze aesthetics are concerned. Not that I recall the others having much in the way or aesthetic descriptions...

Scorpion's Grasp - at first glance, this is redundant with Improved Grab, but unlike IG it doesn't drag the target into your space. Instead it moves you into theirs, which is a frankly fantastic boost to mobility on the Kraken (also working on a full-attack, no less). Also unlike IG, works on any natural attack, including the Kraken's beak and any natural weapons granted by Totemist.

I am not imagining a kraken which zooms across the battlefield by grabbing one enemy after the other...

One limbed grappling - When grappled, you lose your Dex bonus versus anyone that you're not grappling (so, everyone but the person that grappled you) and your reach becomes zero. However, if you have Improved Grab or Scorpion's Grasp, you can conduct a grapple started with that ability using only one hand...So you get to keep your reach, letting you grapple as many opponents as you have limbs. For most creatures (including the Kraken), this only works on opponents smaller than you, but for the Kraken that's barely a problem, and the extra limbs mean you can lock down the whole battlefield.

...dragging the entire battle alongside them.

[Beni-Kujaku]

So, since there doesn't seem to be any more arguments, I'm increasing the ettin to 5RHD/DLA-2 and the Locathah to 1 RHD+1LA/DLA-0, and keeping the rest as is, for now.

Edit: And the kraken at 12 RHD.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Otyugh

By the two heads of Demogorgon this is an ugly monster. Look at the tentacle on the back. Yep, that's its head, with eyes and other sensory organs. It's probably very good evolution-wise, but that makes for a pretty disturbing look. I wouldn't want that as a pet even if it didn't try to eat me.

About the stats, there's not much to say, Morphic has already summarized the main points. In short, it tries to be a grappler, and it's bad at it. Large size is not bad, but clearly not enough to make Improved Grab worthwhile. Being able to grab Medium opponents is way better on a monster than it is on a PC.

The tentacle attacks... exist, I guess. That's still better than a bare-handed attack for a Large character, even if marginally so. The bite attack, on the other hand, while mediocre at best (no, the disease will never be a factor), allows the Otyugh to wield a mouthpick weapon, which becomes very good when iteratives come into play, and offsets a bit the awful anatomy that this creature has. No head, no shoulders, no torso, and questionable arms and fingers. That will hurt a lot at higher levels. Plus, these will probably not mesh well with Black Blood Cultist's natural weapons (the claws will probably be on the tentacles, which is a detriment).

And finally, the stats. These are awful. I know aberration are not known to have stellar stats, but really, these are PHB-LA0-races tier. And not on the good side. Very few large creatures don't have a Str bonus, and on a grappler build, this is horrible. -6 Int means you won't get into more than one prestige class, and even then you'll be pretty useless out of combat. Also, your class skills for your RHD do not mesh well with what you seek (Black blood cultist, if you weren't following). You also have only a 20 ft movement speed. Not that bad, but a Large barbarian going at the same speed as a normal human is not that good either.

Really, the only redeeming quality of the Otyugh is it's natural armor. +8 is very good, especially at low level. And since you won't be wearing armor anytime soon with this anatomy, that's especially necessary. If it didn't have it, I would much rather play an orc or a goliath. Way less malus to mental scores, and at least a Str bonus.

As it is, I don't think it would be playable above 3 RHD. There are just too many things that can't go well, and you're stuck in your role of mediocre grappler by your awful intelligence. I'm not sure between 2 and 3 RHD. I think I'm going to go with 3 RHD for the Otyugh, even I still think it would be quite weak, even with that natural armor. Do bad intelligence and anatomy offset large size, natural armor and mediocre natural weapons? I think yes. No need to burden it with low BAB on top of that. DLA-2

And it doesn't even have Iron Will as a bonus feat! What? Otyugh's have survived the Otyugh's Hole for longer than any prisoner, so I don't see why they shouldn't get it. Next time, we'll have another creature with a less than favorable anatomy and no immediately visible eyes, the purple worm!

[Beni-Kujaku]

Purple Worm

"You are what you eat", says the idiom. And in the D&D universe, where hunting strong monsters quite directly makes you stronger, that is even more true. Well, the purple worm's favorite food is the shrieker fungus.

The purple worm is like a discount Tarrasque, if you removed everything epic from the Tarrasque, and generally cut 2/3 of its HD and power. It is strong and tough, almost infuriatingly so, with +25 Str (as much as the storm giant!) and +15 Con, but dumb as a brick and less than average everywhere else (-4 Dex, -10 Int, -2 Wis and Cha). It has +15 natural armor, which is pretty standard for a creature of this CR, but is still nice).
However, in terms of other abilities, it has no other abilities. The poison is lackluster (the worm still misses the days of 2e when it was instant death on a failed save) and you probably won't be able to use it several times per fight anyway, since it is only on your tail. Improved grab is passable, especially with Swallow Whole, but everyone who wants to grapple at this level will already have Scorpion's Grasp. Plus, it is only on your bite attack. And without arms, you want a toothpick weapon there.

The purple worm has all the worst traits of the storm giant and the kraken. It is a primary grappler that has nothing else it can do, and isn't nearly as good at grappling as the kraken, being forced to give up iteratives to grapple. It has the storm giant's strength, but cannot wield weapons without shenanigans, and has way too low an intelligence to go into prestige classes. Plus, it is slow. It can go anywhere, except in the air, but will always be slower than a regular human, despite being three size categories larger.

What are pure destructive combat prowesses worth? Everything else in your build will have to rely on items, but these size, strength and natural armor bonuses, even if you give up grappling completely, are too humongous to be worth less than 8 RHD. You can compare it to the stone giant. You hit significantly harder and can take more hits, with bigger size, strength and natural armor, but lose a lot of versatility, with much slower speed, no intelligence, and a way, way worse body shape. Magical beast HD are not bad, and at this level, epic isn't out of question soon-ish. I think DLA-3 is adapted, maybe DLA-2.

I rated this one considering that it could percieve the enemy. It has eyes, but those are really small and inaccurate, and it relies on tremorsense, which becomes pretty bad once enemies start flying. Next time is the remorhaz, probably the one monster closest to the purple worm in terms of stats, with just one twist...

[Beni-Kujaku]

Remorhaz

Really nothing much to say here, a Huge beatstick with decent stats all-around, but an awful body shape with only one Bite attack and no possibility to wield weapons.

It tries to be a good grappler but lacks too many things for it to be effective. Easy 5 RHD, DLA-1.

Next time, we'll have the roc, the biggest animal in the monster manual, See you then.

Nothing to see here, this is obviously a very straightforward and easy to rate monster, right? Right?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Remorhaz

More seriously, this monster is a hot mess. So hot, in fact, that "anything touching its body takes 8d6 points of fire damage". Another very 1st edition-like monster with its one unique ability, who has expectedly been toned down slowly but surely with the time passing. 10d10 in 1st and 2nd editions, 8d6 in 3rd and 3.5, 3d6 in 4th and 5e (with the 4th edition having a weird 10ft heat aura instead of the touch activation). Moreover, this heat originates from chemicals produced by the remorhaz when it is aroused. Yep, when it is in heat, it's litterally in heat. Let's analyze it.

-7 Magical Beast RHD. That means low skill points (no real matter, since you already would have a hard time getting more than one skill point per level with your intelligence), 2 good saves, high HP and especially full BAB. You are a martial, very obviously, so this is good.
-Giant tier stats, with +16 Str, +2 Dex, +10 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis. Total +24 with only a hit in intelligence. Real good stats, especially on a 7 RHD creature. +11 natural armor also is a nice bonus.
-No arms, possibly no legs, and only a bite attack. That is awful. But not as much as you might initially think.
-Improved Grab and Swallow Whole. Very standard. Similar to the Purple Worm, with one size category less. You can still swallow Large creatures, so that is good. The Remorhaz really has next to no special ability.
-Mediocre burrow speed but pretty good perception abilities with low-light vision and tremorsense 60ft. The burrow speed is especially interesting in conjunction with Swallow Whole. You eat somebody, then burrow underground. Even if they can inflict 25 points of damage to break free, either they just can't get out because you're in a tunnel that is exactly your body size, or they can get out but they are still touching you and take 8d6 damage, plus you can just move back to eat them again and they have nowhere to escape.

-Finally, Heat. High fire damage to everything you touch. The Remorhaz is made and unmade by its Heat ability.

Spoiler: Reflexion about the Heat ability

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At first glance, this is ridiculously OP. Anyone grappled by the Remorhaz takes damage equivalent to a 5e fireball, without save. You are all but immune to touch spells from your enemies, who won't dare get close enough to deliver them, any opponent relying on natural weapons is royally f**ked when you deal three times as much damage to them with each attack than they do to you, and manufactured weapons have a risk of just shattering on impact, granting you a Vow of Peace-like immunity to any fighter trying to cut you down, or shoot you from a distance (remember that missiles are unatended, and almost always non-magical by themselves, so they don't get Fortitude checks and just shatter when touching you). And even if your opponent makes the save, the weapon still touches your body and takes 8d6 points of damage, probably melting it anyway in 2 or 3 attacks. You are a nigh-unstoppable juggernaut that shrugs off almost anything non-magical people try to throw at you.
Plus, if you were wondering, you can turn it off at will. Not only the ability specifies "an enraged remorhaz generates heat", but they are known (Combat tactics in the MM) to ambush their prey by burrowing into the snow of the arctic (which wouldn't be possible if they just melted everything eround them) and to be trained by frost giants (in 5e) as mounts, which wouldn't be possible if they just killed their master when they are touched. How can you rule that, I don't know, but since raging and going out of rage for a barbarian is a free action, I would think it is the same for the remorhaz. So you can still get buffed or healed by your allies.
However, the big problem is items. Everything that touches your body includes your weapons, your armor, and your magic items. Unless you can afford a Huge non-humanoid armor of obdurium, you are going to go naked on the battlefield. Arguably, even toothpick weapons are affected, even though heat doesn't seem to apply to your bite attack (?). And magic items are never made in fire-resistant materials, which means you won't be able to use magic items in combat. Ever. Or they will just melt in the first two rounds. For a martial, that is incredibly awful, especially at higher levels. What that means is that the remorhaz is heavily restricted to a Vow of Poverty monk build. Or just, you know, 2 levels in monk, then levels in swordsage or warblade, as you do. The point is just to get Improved Unarmed Strike. With it, you're able to use iteratives without losing your bite attack, of course, because grappling is still interesting even though it's generally sub-optimal, especially with a Swallow Whole and massive fire damage on each grappling check. So you're a monk, yes, and you don't have items, yikes, but you're a damn fine monk. You see, the thing with the monk's Improved Unarmed Strike is that you can strike the opponent with any part of your body. Of your body. That strikes your opponent. So it touches them. Yes. I'm saying that a monk Remorhaz would deal 8d6 points of fire damage with each unarmed strike. And with your tremendous strength and full BAB, you're going to hit most of these attacks. Yes, this is a favourable interpretation of the ability, but it is both the most logical one and the most interesting one in terms of gameplay. But does that balance the absence of magic items, even with Vow of Poverty (take Nymph's Kiss [ew...], Touch of Golden Ice, Nimbus of Light, Stigmata and Vow of Chastity as your bonus feats)? At high level, probably not. You still can't fly, and incredible fire damage doesn't amount to much when everything is immune to fire. But up to mid level (12-13), I really think a Remorhaz would outperform a low-op warblade, even with items. +11 natural armor, at least +7 exalted AC, with weapon destruction and natural weapon recoil make you next to untouchable in nonmagical combat. And if you get Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, Evasion and Mettle (Templar 1, you qualify pretty easily if you take Nymph's Kiss), even magical means will have a hard time getting through to you. Yes, that is a lot, but these classes don't hurt your build, and you would probably take them anyway.

In the end, I think I'm going to disagree with inevitability here, and say that the Remorhaz is worth LA+1. Yes, its choices are very limited, but it is really good in what it is forced into. If Heat doesn't apply to natural weapons, it's way worse, but you should still be able to make something of it, especially before level 10, and still decent from lv 10 to lv 12. Maybe 6 RHD and DLA-0 in this case. I would like some advice here, on notably what you think Heat should apply to, and what being forced into Poverty is worth.

The Remorhaz is the exact definition on why a strong monster doesn't make a strong PC. As a monster, it is a fearsome encounter, probably capable of dealing heavy damage to a party even above its CR, with its ambush, it's burrow speed and its incredible superiority to mundanes. As a PC, however, everything that makes PC more powerful than monsters (items and a united party) don't work in its favor in combat, making it way worth than it ought to be. I really like the Remorhaz. It has everything that would make playing a monster interesting. A unique ability that encourages strategizing around, heavy RP-requirements and weird specialization. If anybody wants to play a monster at mid-high level, I'd recommend trying the remorhaz. Next time, we'll have a pretty boring entry, for real this time, the strongest animal in all of the land, the roc!

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'll note also that Incarnum is the saving grace of VoP builds, granting flight, phasing, and other abilities to fill in the gaps left by magic items. Not having an arms chakra stings, but it still presumably has a shoulder chakra for Pegasus Cloak, and definitely has a foot chakra for Airstep Sandals.

OTOH, the Remorhaz's main schtick can essentially be replaced by the Heart of Fire soulmeld. The offensive damage being done won't be as great, but the defensive damage will actually be better, it doesn't damage friendlies or items you're wearing, and a pure Totemist can more easily get a load of natural attacks to take advantage of it. On the third hand, you can't get access to the defensive benefits until Totemist 14, fully 7 HD after the Remorhaz, meaning the Remorhaz has a large level bracket in which it outshines even a fully optimized Heart of Fire.

Side Note: Oddly, it's only creatures grappling you that take fire damage at the end of each round from Heart of Fire, so if you're one-limbed grappling your victims won't be subject to it. So I guess that's another point towards the Remorhaz, which can still do its bonus damage after swallowing and while one-limbed grappling, leaving it free to engage more opponents without sacrificing some damage.

EDIT: No opinion yet on the final value of the Remorhaz; just putting relevant points out there.

[Remuko]

did you go and read the discussion that was had for it in the original assignment thread?

also youre not disagreeing with him, if you think its worth +1 instead of -0 as its a vote, as you well know and the majority decided it wasnt worth its HD. I'm come right out and say that I dont agree with any decisions that happen in this thread that contradict the LA Assignment Threads, as I know happened at least once before already. Honestly I feel if you can't agree with the -0s assigned as is, maybe you shouldn't be doing this task; or at the least that you need to set your personal bias aside and accept what the discussions and votes in the Assignment Threads decided on.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

did you go and read the discussion that was had for it in the original assignment thread?

also youre not disagreeing with him, if you think its worth +1 instead of -0 as its a vote, as you well know and the majority decided it wasnt worth its HD. I'm come right out and say that I dont agree with any decisions that happen in this thread that contradict the LA Assignment Threads, as I know happened at least once before already. Honestly I feel if you can't agree with the -0s assigned as is, maybe you shouldn't be doing this task; or at the least that you need to set your personal bias aside and accept what the discussions and votes in the Assignment Threads decided on.

In fairness, only 4 people voted on the Remorhaz, and one of them was +0 (and I don't know Inevitability's original vote, because they edit it to match the mode for the monster's final score). So that's only two confirmed votes for -0, and probably three total.

[Morphic tide]

Bit of a correction on items not surviving more than two rounds, you halve the Fire damage before applying Hardness, so to do any damage at all to an Adamantine item you have to roll 40 or more, Mithral is Hardness 15, and direct magic plusses raise Hardness as well. 8d6 has a 23% chance to do any damage at all to +1 Mithral, and only a 0.18% chance to damage +1 Adamantine. A Mithral item without additional Hardness has a ~61.5% chance of taking any amount of damage in two rounds, and taking more than one damage in a single instance is a 13% chance. Armor should be overwhelmingly safe.

So no, you don't need to outright fireproof your gear since Adamantine is honestly close enough, you just need to get to special materials and have somebody take the downtime hit of fixing the remarkably occasional damage, if there isn't a spell that covers heat damage. Granted, there's the chance of the DM noticing this and deciding to make use of you not having any Fire resistance for some God-forsaken reason and punish you with Heat Metal damage.

did you go and read the discussion that was had for it in the original assignment thread?

also youre not disagreeing with him, if you think its worth +1 instead of -0 as its a vote, as you well know and the majority decided it wasnt worth its HD. I'm come right out and say that I dont agree with any decisions that happen in this thread that contradict the LA Assignment Threads, as I know happened at least once before already. Honestly I feel if you can't agree with the -0s assigned as is, maybe you shouldn't be doing this task; or at the least that you need to set your personal bias aside and accept what the discussions and votes in the Assignment Threads decided on.

Full BAB and therefor full-time +8 to attack and damage, +5HP/hd on any future levels, Improved Grab+Swallow Whole on a Huge body, sizable reactive damage that as per above is Adamantine-safe, and even against Full Plate you have +3 AC to afford losing to the costs of fireproofing your items. And can completely leave out the Con item and remain ahead.

Against the blunt Barbarian 4/Totemist 2/Totem Rager 10/Totemist +4, you trade three levels of Barbarian and four levels of Totemist, and therefor one Soulmeld, one Chakra Bind, four Essentia, Uncanny Dodge, and a daily use of Rage, for +16 to Grapple checks, +8 to attack rolls and damage, actually being able to Grapple all the way to Colossal, and a free 2d8 Bite. In the end, you seem to quite literally substitute Heart of Fire with being a Remorhaz, and get a truly astonishing pile of bonuses on top of this. LA +1 is understandable, literally the only question for viability is if you can have items on, and Totemist is perfectly capable of answering the core qualitative problems to shrug and say "Vow of Poverty".

You literally have so much strength that you match a +4 Strength race with Girralon Arms empty. By the raw numbers, this is worth it. The question is how much extra it costs to get the rest of the numbers to stick, and since you can quite likely ignore your Strength and Con items alongside armor, fireproofing would need to be a truly ludicrous expense since you get to pass up three primary items. And probably an AC item for a while, to boot.

[Beni-Kujaku]

did you go and read the discussion that was had for it in the original assignment thread?

I did, incidentally, and not only was almost half of it a discussion on if you could deactivate it (on which I provided evidence, or at least argument that you definitely could), the fact that it applies on unarmed attack was hardly mentioned, and it's kind of a super important point. Note also that I mentioned that if it wasn't the case, then I think 6 RHD is fine for the beast.

So no, you don't need to outright fireproof your gear since Adamantine is honestly close enough

You are right, and I mentioned obdurium in that regard, even though adamantine could have made the job. But not only is a huge nonhumanoid adamantine full plate 42,000 gp (that's almost the whole WPL of a level 10 character!), it doesn't seem applicable to items other than weapons and armor, and you'd either have to don and remove the armor for each fight, or cast mend several times a day on it, if it isn't +1. Magic items will clearly not be fine, though. The next best thing is mithral, since adamantine is not applicable to "other items", and 23% of being damaged each round means they need mending every 20 minutes or so. Each of your items. I still consider it a liability, and would probably advocate taking VoP instead of an adamantine armor.

I'll note also that Incarnum is the saving grace of VoP builds, granting flight, phasing, and other abilities to fill in the gaps left by magic items. Not having an arms chakra stings, but it still presumably has a shoulder chakra for Pegasus Cloak, and definitely has a foot chakra for Airstep Sandals.

OTOH, the Remorhaz's main schtick can essentially be replaced by the Heart of Fire soulmeld. The offensive damage being done won't be as great, but the defensive damage will actually be better, it doesn't damage friendlies or items you're wearing, and a pure Totemist can more easily get a load of natural attacks to take advantage of it.

You'll notice that the Heart of Fire is incidentally supposed to be the soulmeld of a Remorhaz, which is why it's abilities are so reminiscent of the ones from the original creature ^^. That is also another, much more indirect and lore-related, and hence, probably to be disregarded, argument to apply Heat to natural weapons, but that's another story. Heart of Fire is good, but not only is the damage weaker (you can't put 4 points of essentia in it before level 18, or 12 plus 2 of totemist), you can't bind it to the Waist before level 14. And if you want to cheat with Open Greater Chakra, not only is that only level 18, but you can't even bind it to both totem and waist before Totemist 12. Not only is fire immunity much more common at this level than it is at level 6 to 8, staying in an incarnum class for so many level is generally not recommended, and you'd lose as much if not more versatility than going Remorhaz, in my opinion.

[Morphic tide]

You are right, and I mentioned obdurium in that regard, even though adamantine could have made the job. But not only is a huge nonhumanoid adamantine full plate 42,000 gp (that's almost the whole WPL of a level 10 character!), it doesn't seem applicable to items other than weapons and armor, and you'd either have to don and remove the armor for each fight, or cast mend several times a day on it, if it isn't +1. Magic items will clearly not be fine, though. The next best thing is mithral, since adamantine is not applicable to "other items", and 23% of being damaged each round means they need mending every 20 minutes or so. Each of your items. I still consider it a liability, and would probably advocate taking VoP instead of an adamantine armor..

Actually, Adamantine Full Plate would be 120,000 GP in special materials, being 15,000x8 (a +1 Adamantine Chain Shirt would be 42,800, plus however Masterwork functions with size increases) and you did suggest having it be at-will rather than passive so it's 20 minutes of active use out of Mithral, meaning they're almost certainly safe for several entire days without breaking. Vow of Poverty's definitely the better move if you have an alternative source of Flight, though this is at level 16 at the absolute earliest for Pegasus Cloak via Totemist 9, and level 19 if you want to do it with Totem Rager.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Roc

I strongly encourage you to go read the original thread on the roc. The concentration of bad bird/rock puns is extreme and admirable.

"I want a big bird." 'What, like an eagle?' "No, bigger." 'Oh, I know, a dire eagle!' "Hmmm... Still not big enough" 'Like, a horrid eagle from Eberron?' "Oh, no, nothing of all this acid and magicky thing, I want just a normal bird, but big enough to lift an elephant as a light charge." '...I think I have something for you'

The roc is just a big bird, with an incredible lack of lore and description, despite being there from 1e and lots of real-life legends and myths being based on it.

-18 Animal RHD. Incredibly bad.
- +24 Str, +4 Dex, +14 Con, -8 Int, +2 Wis, +0 Cha. +9 Natural armor. For a Gargantuan 18 RHD creature, that's really not good. And you're not going to be anything else than a martial. Especially the armor, the Roc is one of the monsters at this level with the lowest AC.
- 80ft average flying, this is nice but is very, very far from balancing 18 RHD.
- 2 average talons and a bite attack. The bite allows for toothpick (or beakpick, in this case), so it's not too bad, but nothing stellar here.

What are pure stats worth? Everything else in this monster is average. I am going to say 10 RHD as a first guess. Compare to the bulette, rated at ECL 10, you have more strength and fly instead of burrow, and the bulette has two more claw attacks and full BAB. With direct LA, I think the roc is fine around LA-4, just short of full BAB, allowing it to have 4 attacks at ECL 17.

Next time, we will have yet another monster that would much rather be an encounter than a PC, the rust monster!

[Beni-Kujaku]

Rust Monster

What is it with all these loot-destroying monsters? It's almost like they didn't consider the possibility of players creating a forum, then discussing what could be the LA of creatures that the game designers explicitly described as not fit for a PC!
The rust monster has a very interesting ecology. In fact, the rust monster itself is only the larva. Once it eats enough metal, which it can't do on the Prime Material Plane, so it goes in other Planes, like Acheron, it creates a cocoon made of scrap metal. It will rest there for 3 years, then emerge in the form of the rust dragons of Acheron. It will then live the life of a rust dragon, from wyrmling to great wyrm (or more likely from wyrmling to death). So, the rust monster is the only monster in d&d to both have an exoskeleton and an endoskeleton during its life, and to grow both by moulting, by metamorphosis and by traditional growth. Both interesting and pretty messed up.

- 5 Aberration HD. Not good at all.
-+6 Dex, +2 Con, -8 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha. Total +0, with a hefty hit to Int. Hardly justifiable, but still better than no stats adjustment at all, supposedly.
-Only one damaging natural attack. At least it's a bite, but it's secondary and does miserable damage. At early levels, you will have an incredibly hard time contributing in combat.
-Finally, Rust. The rust monster has a similar ability to the remorhaz, in that, if it is struck by a metal weapon or attacks an opponent with an armor, it may destroy it, except hilariously worse in almost every way, although not as restrictive. Rust doesn't affect your own gear, but it doesn't affect anybody that doesn't use metal gear (so for 90% of encounters, this will do litterally nothing). It is on its own attack (your antennae), so you have to choose between dealing damage and destroying your opponents gear. And its defensive capabilities are null, since it doesn't do anything on grapplers and natural attackers (again, 90% of the monster manual), and even on metal weapons, the ability activates after you take damage, not before, so it will not protect you a lot.
However, this is still interesting in a lot of situations, especially at low levels, that will help you alleviate a bit your lack of skills. You can rust any lock or any trap, and infiltrate anywhere who has metal walls. But this ability will still be a li-ability most of the time.

So, what do you do with that? Frankly, I don't know. The stats are those of a ranged ranger or rogue, but with no real natural weapons and no way to use ranged weapons, that is not possible. This could make a pretty good cleric, except being at least 2 levels behind (I'm not putting anything with a +6 in a stat and +5 natural armor lower than 2 RHD) is much steeper for a caster than a mundane, and it would be too much behind. You could be an interesting swordsage, but the absence of ways to deal damage will still make the first levels really hard, plus you don't really want to get in melee, since either your ability will do nothing, or it will destroy loot.

Also, you eat metal, so it might be a problem if you are travelling and the cities you visit don't have some sort of scrap metal disposal, which would be pretty rare in a medieval setting (how did this species survive again?).

In the end, I think the rust monster is worth 2 RHD. I could change it to 3 if someone can find me something good to do with it. And aberration RHD are extremely bad, so LA -2.

Next time, we'll rate the salamanders! No, not the amphibians, the yuan-ti ripoffs from the Plane of Fire.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Salamanders (Average and Noble)

Salamanders, because a real amphibian, a folklore lizard, a WH40k Astartes legion and a kind of molten metal with the same name were not quite confusing enough. These snake people have the particularity of worshipping themselves as representative of their god, the litteral element of fire. Surely, they would have what it takes to back up such cockiness, right? Right?


Okay, so. Outsiders can't really be unplayable, save really hampering abilities. By their very nature, they have good hit points, full BAB, good skill points and weapon proficiency, along with all good saves and several miscellaneous advantages. Outsider HD could be compared, all on their own, to fighter class levels. However, the average salamander would be a strong contender in a contest of "how mediocre can you make an outsider with technically only advantages?"

Average, 9 RHD: The average salamander has a lot of things going on, but everything is incredibly minor.
-The stats are miserable. +2 in Dex and Cha, +4 elsewhere, +7 Natural armor. That's all well and good, but when I would have expected these stats on a 4 RHD creature (like the lesser version of the salamander, for example, who has almost exactly the same stats), they are much too low for a 9 RHD one. Medium size is probably a disadvantage compared to the lesser version, all things considered.
-1d6 fire damage on all natural and metal weapons is interesting, if underpowered.
-Improved grab and constrict without grapple bonuses on a medium creature is anecdotic. Fire subtype and +4 Craft(blacksmithing) are not worth mentioning.
-The tail is much better, with pretty good 2d6 damage, and is pretty much the only real lure of the average salamander compared to the firebrother.
-DR 10/magic. Even at this level, it will probably not come up that often, but that's something.
-Finally, what is probably the most minor ability that is technically a bonus in the whole game: you can take multiattack without prerequisites. You don't get it as a bonus feat, you just are able to choose it despite having only one natural attack (and hence, the use of the feat becomes questionable anyway). The way the ability is phrased can even be understood as "you are forced to choose Multiattack as one of your feats", which becomes a drawback.

The lesser salamander was deemed +0 with 4 RHD and the differences (DR 10/magic, +2 Str, 2d6 and 10ft reach tail, Medium size) don't seem quite enough to justify more than one HD. 5 RHD and DLA-1 for the average salamander.

Noble, 15 RHD: Compared to the average one, we have:
- Large size, which means you could probably grapple some people at low level. The reach is much appreciated.
- +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha. Probably just size increase+epic array, but that is still nice. +1 natural armor (woohoo!) to balance the size malus. Still a lower AC than the firebrother and its 4 RHD.
- Still the 20ft movement speed from the firebrother, which is really slow for a Large creature.
- DR 15/magic and 1d8 fire damage instead of DR 10/magic and 1d6. You take what you can.
-SLAs. Those are the big ones. If they are incredibly outdated at ECL 15, they can be devastating at lower levels, like wall of fire 3/day (nice) or Summon Huge Fire Elemental 1/day (really good, could auto-win you one fight per day until ECL 8 or 9). The rest is some fire blasting and dispel magic 1/day. Not awful, but nothing stellar.
I hesitate between 7 and 8 RHD. At ECL 7, SM7 is overpowered, but with 8 RHD, it will probably fall behind at higher levels. I will say 8 RHD, since good grappling abilities really do make the noble salamander quite a threat. What are 7 additional Outsider HD worth in terms of ECL? Probably 4 ECL. DLA-3 for the noble salamander.

I did not expect these to be so bland... Next time, we'll have the satyr and their fabled flutes!

[Morphic tide]

So, over the Flamebrother that's judged a +0 Rogue or TWF Ranger, the Average Salamander has +2 strength, -1 to AC and attack rolls, +4 to Grapple and Trip but , +1 average damage to Heat, and 10 DR/Magic. Overall ability bonuses +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, and +2 Cha. Still a sensible Rogue, but less sneaky and more beat-sticky, indicating potential use of War Mind, perhaps spliced with PsyRouge? Definitely worth at least 5 RHD, that is a lot of durability and nothing to sneeze at for damage, and with your skill list there's a non-zero chance you can immediately PRC. *checks* Huh, you can actually enter Assassin out of the box and perfectly on schedule, since 5 RHD gives you 4 ranks cross-class and both Hide and Move Silently are class skills.

I'd say the Noble would be easily functional with as much as 9 RHD. Referring to my usual Grappling benchmark, the bare necessity is Totemist 2, Barbarian 1, Black Blood Cultist 8, and you bring +1d8 Fire damage per natural attack, a bonus natural attack, a Constrict, under-qualified Multiattack assuring your secondaries are at +3 relative to normal, and being Large to start off with. With 22 Strength and Large size, you get a racial +10 to Grapple checks permanently against two extra Rages at a furthered +2 Str/Con. You are, in every way, significantly better than a standard Totem Rager Grappler, as what you're losing at absolute best gives +9 to Grapple checks, and more realistically only +5.

But not so dramatically better as for me to feel comfortable forbidding Savage Grappler, particularly since you're actually more comparing to a Psychic Warrior with the Energy damage, in which case your Multiattack's virtual +3 and full BAB for 9rhd is saving a lot from accuracy boosters to address your PP shortage. PsyWar 11+Practiced Manifester at 16+4+6 Wis vs. PsyWar 20 with 14+6 Wis is 35+60 PP vs. 127+50 pp, putting the Slamander Noble 82 PP behind. You lose access to 6th-level Powers, costing Form of Doom, but you still have a +8 Strength advantage, so between +4 from Strength, +1d8 from Heat, and having a tail, you remarkably neatly continue comparison with the full-burn Natural Attack PsyWar, ultimately saving as much as 25pp (6 Expansion augment, 8 Grip of Iron augment, 11 Form of Doom) per fight if looking to just match outputs.

And you have an extra size category and iterative on the weapon PsyWar on top of the Strength at 9rhd, so... You're definitely doing more damage with way less there. Really, against PsyWar we could probably argue 11 RHD with how much PP you can save on just not being damaged, but again I don't feel this has a big enough advantage to forsake Savage Grapple if one wishes to Black Blood Cultist. It's basically the big thing that turns on Grappling as a serious competitor to Charge builds, so even if you're dealing literally double the damage at +7 on the check, losing that would end up with you having half the damage overall, if that, because you don't get all your Natural Attacks on every individual Grapple check to deal damage.

In general, anything less than 10 RHD is probably going to be a question of versatility, and with Martials there's just not enough to begin with to be losing a critical amount, the question is if it's "worth" missing the big PRC boosts. Even with the canned gishes there isn't much to do.

[Beni-Kujaku]

So, over the Flamebrother that's judged a +0 Rogue or TWF Ranger, the Average Salamander has +2 strength, -1 to AC and attack rolls, +4 to Grapple and Trip but , +1 average damage to Heat, and 10 DR/Magic. Overall ability bonuses +4 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, and +2 Cha. Still a sensible Rogue, but less sneaky and more beat-sticky, indicating potential use of War Mind, perhaps spliced with PsyRouge? Definitely worth at least 5 RHD, that is a lot of durability and nothing to sneeze at for damage, and with your skill list there's a non-zero chance you can immediately PRC. *checks* Huh, you can actually enter Assassin out of the box and perfectly on schedule, since 5 RHD gives you 4 ranks cross-class and both Hide and Move Silently are class skills.

I'd say the Noble would be easily functional with as much as 9 RHD. Referring to my usual Grappling benchmark, the bare necessity is Totemist 2, Barbarian 1, Black Blood Cultist 8, and you bring +1d8 Fire damage per natural attack, a bonus natural attack, a Constrict, under-qualified Multiattack assuring your secondaries are at +3 relative to normal, and being Large to start off with. With 22 Strength and Large size, you get a racial +10 to Grapple checks permanently against two extra Rages at a furthered +2 Str/Con. You are, in every way, significantly better than a standard Totem Rager Grappler, as what you're losing at absolute best gives +9 to Grapple checks, and more realistically only +5.

But not so dramatically better as for me to feel comfortable forbidding Savage Grappler, particularly since you're actually more comparing to a Psychic Warrior with the Energy damage, in which case your Multiattack's virtual +3 and full BAB for 9rhd is saving a lot from accuracy boosters to address your PP shortage. PsyWar 11+Practiced Manifester at 16+4+6 Wis vs. PsyWar 20 with 14+6 Wis is 35+60 PP vs. 127+50 pp, putting the Slamander Noble 82 PP behind. You lose access to 6th-level Powers, costing Form of Doom, but you still have a +8 Strength advantage, so between +4 from Strength, +1d8 from Heat, and having a tail, you remarkably neatly continue comparison with the full-burn Natural Attack PsyWar, ultimately saving as much as 25pp (6 Expansion augment, 8 Grip of Iron augment, 11 Form of Doom) per fight if looking to just match outputs.

And you have an extra size category and iterative on the weapon PsyWar on top of the Strength at 9rhd, so... You're definitely doing more damage with way less there. Really, against PsyWar we could probably argue 11 RHD with how much PP you can save on just not being damaged, but again I don't feel this has a big enough advantage to forsake Savage Grapple if one wishes to Black Blood Cultist. It's basically the big thing that turns on Grappling as a serious competitor to Charge builds, so even if you're dealing literally double the damage at +7 on the check, losing that would end up with you having half the damage overall, if that, because you don't get all your Natural Attacks on every individual Grapple check to deal damage.

In general, anything less than 10 RHD is probably going to be a question of versatility, and with Martials there's just not enough to begin with to be losing a critical amount, the question is if it's "worth" missing the big PRC boosts. Even with the canned gishes there isn't much to do.

The average salamander doesn't have 1 damage more on Heat, it's 1d6 for both firebrother and average, only 1 more damage due to strength. In the end, between a firebrother with a fighter level and an average 5 RHD salamander, the average salamander has -1 AC, +1 damage, DR 10/magic (even at this level, there is a pretty high chance an enemy will just bypass this), a bit more skill points and a feat less. That seems pretty balanced to me.

For the noble, I agree that it is better at grappling than almost every non-monstrous PC of its level, but a PsyWar has other powers besides combat ones, a totemist has an extremely large choice of soulmelds, giving it potentially defense, heal, flight, skills.... I can agree with 8 RHD, but I believe the loss of versatility must amount to something, especially at this level, where PCs start to get the most interesting mid-level abilities of their classes.

[GreatWyrmGold]

And without arms, you want a toothpick weapon there.

I guess any weapon is a toothpick to a Huge creature.
("I'm halping!" says Otto Korrect.)

-No arms, possibly no legs, and only a bite attack.

Possibly no legs? It's a friggin' centipede!

-Finally, Heat. High fire damage to everything you touch. The Remorhaz is made and unmade by its Heat ability.
[Reflexion about the Heat ability...]

I think your (relatively) high rating for the rhemorhaz comes down almost entirely to a fairly permissive interpretation of the Heat ability. Without that, or with a build that doesn't let you turn that into ridiculous offensive damage, it's definitely -0.

The bite allows for toothpick (or beakpick, in this case)

Toothpick again?? It's "mouthpick weapon," isn't it?

-Finally, what is probably the most minor ability that is technically a bonus in the whole game: you can take multiattack without prerequisites. You don't get it as a bonus feat, you just are able to choose it despite having only one natural attack (and hence, the use of the feat becomes questionable anyway). The way the ability is phrased can even be understood as "you are forced to choose Multiattack as one of your feats", which becomes a drawback.

The Multiattack feat is there to reduce the penalty for a "secondary" tail slap (after primary weapon attaks) to -2 instead of -5, which is reflected in the stat blocks. Whether +3 to one of your 3+ attacks when you full attack is worth a feat is another matter entirely...

[Morphic tide]

The average salamander doesn't have 1 damage more on Heat, it's 1d6 for both firebrother and average, only 1 more damage due to strength. In the end, between a firebrother with a fighter level and an average 5 RHD salamander, the average salamander has -1 AC, +1 damage, DR 10/magic (even at this level, there is a pretty high chance an enemy will just bypass this), a bit more skill points and a feat less. That seems pretty balanced to me.

For the noble, I agree that it is better at grappling than almost every non-monstrous PC of its level, but a PsyWar has other powers besides combat ones, a totemist has an extremely large choice of soulmelds, giving it potentially defense, heal, flight, skills.... I can agree with 8 RHD, but I believe the loss of versatility must amount to something, especially at this level, where PCs start to get the most interesting mid-level abilities of their classes.

Ah, misread the Salamanders I see. With regard to the Noble, the 11-level "Grappling stub" and Psychic Warrior are getting extremely marginal versatility from the 12th class level. PsyWar gets 1 more Power of up to 4th level, not a new Power level, alongside 8pp, while the Totemist BBC gets at most Totem Rager 1 for +1 Essentia in rage. You'd need to go down to 7rhd for PsyWar to reach 5th level Powers, which are a very limited value proposition, and this gives you closely on-level damage SLAs while simultaneously being a quite capable Martial with Grappling allowances.

The Multiattack feat is there to reduce the penalty for a "secondary" tail slap (after primary weapon attaks) to -2 instead of -5, which is reflected in the stat blocks. Whether +3 to one of your 3+ attacks when you full attack is worth a feat is another matter entirely...

Totemist or PsyWar, Multiattack will apply to the feature-granted Natural Attacks for +3 to all of those. +3 to as many as six attacks (if you Double Chakra Girallon Arms with a Bite and keep the tail) is definitely worth a feat, and perhaps doubly so for Psychic Warrior since they can't qualify without exceptional cheese or odd race choices otherwise so they're usually stuck with the full -5, and getting +3 on both their Claws, their Bite, and the Salamander Tail while also having +1d8 Fire damage on each is... Quite a big swing.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I guess any weapon is a toothpick to a Huge creature.
("I'm halping!" says Otto Korrect.)

Possibly no legs? It's a friggin' centipede!

I think your (relatively) high rating for the rhemorhaz comes down almost entirely to a fairly permissive interpretation of the Heat ability. Without that, or with a build that doesn't let you turn that into ridiculous offensive damage, it's definitely -0.

Toothpick again?? It's "mouthpick weapon," isn't it?

No auto-correct‚ just me misreading the name of the weapon property and not knowing how to speak english.

Yeah‚ I reread the DMG and it definitely has both arms and legs in regard to magic items. My bad.

Yes‚ it is a permissive reading‚ that I explained‚ and even gave an alternative rating if you don't rule it this way.

For Totemist or PsyWar, Multiattack will apply to the feature-granted Natural Attacks for +3 to all of those. +3 to as many as six attacks (if you Double Chakra Girallon Arms with a Bite and keep the tail) is definitely worth a feat, and perhaps doubly so for Psychic Warrior since they can't qualify without exceptional cheese or odd race choices.

In that case‚ it's not a racial bonus from salamander. You will most likely level up with your natural attacks available‚ and hence would be able to take the feat anyway‚ it would just only apply when you have 3 or more natural attacks (which are the only times it is useful anyway)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Totemist or PsyWar, Multiattack will apply to the feature-granted Natural Attacks for +3 to all of those...

I wasn't trying to make a "Multiattack is useless on salamanders" argument; I was, in fact, trying to make a "This is why the designers thought Multiattack was a good idea" argument—or, from a different angle, "Multiattack isn't useless on salamanders".

[Morphic tide]

In that case‚ it's not a racial bonus from salamander. You will most likely level up with your natural attacks available‚ and hence would be able to take the feat anyway‚ it would just only apply when you have 3 or more natural attacks (which are the only times it is useful anyway)

That'd be the case for Totemist, but a Psychic Warrior would need to source two from magic/psionic items or Extend Claws of the Beast at ML 13 or higher. You need to have a duration greater than a day to qualify for feats and PRCs off of temporary effects, to my recollection.

I wasn't trying to make a "Multiattack is useless on salamanders" argument; I was, in fact, trying to make a "This is why the designers thought Multiattack was a good idea" argument—or, from a different angle, "Multiattack isn't useless on salamanders".

I'd thought you critical of the use of the feat due to this part of your post:

Whether +3 to one of your 3+ attacks when you full attack is worth a feat is another matter entirely...

It made it appear you were unaware of the fact a PC will effectively instantly acquire more of them.

[Beni-Kujaku]

You need to have a duration greater than a day to qualify for feats and PRCs off of temporary effects, to my recollection.

You do? I never knew that‚ always thought you only had to meet the prereqs once you take the feat and whenever you want to use it. Can I have a source?

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'd thought you critical of the use of the feat due to this part of your post:

It made it appear you were unaware of the fact a PC will effectively instantly acquire more of them.

Because all PCs are Totemists?

There are builds that can make better use of Multiattack, but not everyone uses natural-weapon-based builds.

[Morphic tide]

Because all PCs are Totemists?

There are builds that can make better use of Multiattack, but not everyone uses natural-weapon-based builds.

Psychic Warrior again, and Bite builds exist. It's an underqualified feat, why wouldn't you build to use an unusual advantage of the monster? It's like taking a monster with Bite/Claw/Claw and then never getting Natural Attack enhancers. You are of course also able to be a Grappler with the Construct, but that specifically references Tail Slap damage. So you want Natural Attack enhancers even absent the Multiattack, whether that's Dread Carapace bound to Shoulders, Expansion, Improved Natural Attack, or whatever else applies.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Satyrs

These are so much of a bard that their name litterally means "pervert" in several languages! Need I say more?

So, the satyr. Do you see this merry goat man with his flute? Yeah, take it. Break it, fill it with remorhaz "horniness juice", play modern music on it, anything so that he doesn't use it ever again. Yes, we are first covering the pipeless satyr.
+2 to all stats, that's good but nothing stellar. NA+4, DR 5/cold iron, these are really good defensive abilities. Nobody carries cold iron with them, especially not monsters, while everybody carries something magical. One of the weakest kind of natural weapons, but a natural weapon nonetheless, a subpar bonus feat, bonuses to interesting skills and a 40 ft movement speed. Yes, I think that is a pretty good race for LA+2, I have to admit WotC did their job on this one... Ah, it had 5 RHD on top of this? Well, into the negative LA thread you go.

And fey RHD are... meh, at best. You have good skills, almost as much as an outsider, and proficiency with light weapons. But you have half BAB. Since the satyr will probably be a caster anyway, that's not crippling, but it is a pretty big problem nonetheless, and also means your defensive abilities have a good chance of not coming up that often. And no immunity. In the end, I think the satyr still deserves 3 RHD, just for the heap of bonuses it gets to kind of everything. Maybe even a low 4. Definitely DLA-1, though.



Ok, now give the flute back. What do you mean your animal companion ate it? Then buy one back! What do you mean they don't have listed prices!? Aah, forget it, see this other satyr with his pipes? Go kill him, take his instrument, then give it to the first satyr. No "buts"! We're covering satyrs with pipes now.
So, with their pipe, satyrs can use charm person, sleep and fear essentially at will, with even a higher DC than the original spells for charm person and sleep starting at 4 HD, and ever-scaling (both 1st level spells, but the DC is 10+1/2 the satyr's HD+Cha), and a lower one for fear (who cares, this is still a 3rd level spell casted with a CL10, which means anyone who fails the Will save will be out for the entire fight). Now, these are low-level spells, and anything mindless or mind blanked will not care, but that will end fights on its own up to mid-level, and is a pretty good entry for Siren. I believe that is worth 4 RHD and DLA-0 for the satyr with pipes.
Also, notice that the pipes effects are only really soft 1/day. Not only if somebody fails their save, you can affect them again, but the immunity only applies to a particular set of pipes, so if by some sort of DM madness you happen to stumble upon another satyr and steal his pan pipe, you can just switch and use your save-or-lose (because that's what they are, without a doubt) again on everyone. Plus, by RAW, it doesn't seem to take up an action, by itself, it's just "when it plays", and some bardic music uses don't use actions, so you could probably just play on several pan pipes sequentially in the same round at the beginning of each fight, and even if the opponents succeed at all of their saves, they are still shaken twice, so terrified for 1 round, plus whatever effect you use from the Siren PrC. But really, we're going into book-throwing cheese there.


Edit: The Satyr monster class in Savage Species states that the pipes of a satyr are not in fact magical themselves, and that a satyr can "Attune" to any set of pan pipes that they own for a day, with seemingly no limit in how many sets of pan pipes they can own. With this reading, always use the "with pipes" rating above, and if you allow the satyr to possess any number of pan pipes, effectively deleting the 1/day on their SLAs, they become extremely good Sirens, to the point that I believe they would be more than playable at LA+0.


Next time, we'll have a monster who, contrary to the satyr, had no business ever existing outside of 1st edition, and yet here we are, the Sea Cat! Don't expect many water puns, I've already run dry with the locathah.

[Morphic tide]

So, comparing at 4rhd and Rogue 3 to a "blank" face-Rogue 7:

Chassis: -2 BAB, -14 skill points, +2 Ref, +4 Will
Features: 2d6 vs. 4d6 Sneak Attack, Uncanny Dodge one stage lower, -1 Trap Sense, lose one Special Ability.
Attacks: Extra 1d6 Headbutt if willing to eat -5 to other attacks, get iterative at ECL 12 instead of 8, so theoretically +1d6 damage if the accuracy doesn't fail you.
Defenses: +5 Natural Armor, DR 5/Cold Iron (so demons and other Fey with Natural Attacks and the very occasional manufactured weapon user loaded appropriately)

Now for the meaty bit where I dig into 28 point buy: Let's say the standard face-Rogue has Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, and Cha 16, because this is a utility-focused Rogue rather than combat-focused. The Satyr can have Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, and Cha 18, equalizing their skill ranks with Rogue on their RHD by having +4 Int from using their Dex and Con to spend less points on the same score while also having a bonus to Int, then gets +2 skill ranks/level each further level of Rogue, +1 to Wisdom and Charisma skills, and +2 to Intelligence skills.

Seems perfectly functional at 4rhd, as a Rogue, since you get one extra attack to offset the Sneak Attack. As a Bard, however... Yeah, not worth being over a spell level behind, you're already losing a terrible chunk of Bardic Music.