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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    So, comparing at 4rhd and Rogue 3 to a "blank" face-Rogue 7:

    Chassis: -2 BAB, -14 skill points, +2 Ref, +4 Will
    Features: 2d6 vs. 4d6 Sneak Attack, Uncanny Dodge one stage lower, -1 Trap Sense, lose one Special Ability.
    Attacks: Extra 1d6 Headbutt if willing to eat -5 to other attacks, get iterative at ECL 12 instead of 8, so theoretically +1d6 damage if the accuracy doesn't fail you.
    Defenses: +5 Natural Armor, DR 5/Cold Iron (so demons and other Fey with Natural Attacks and the very occasional manufactured weapon user loaded appropriately)

    Now for the meaty bit where I dig into 28 point buy: Let's say the standard face-Rogue has Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, and Cha 16, because this is a utility-focused Rogue rather than combat-focused. The Satyr can have Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 10, and Cha 18, equalizing their skill ranks with Rogue on their RHD by having +4 Int from using their Dex and Con to spend less points on the same score while also having a bonus to Int, then gets +2 skill ranks/level each further level of Rogue, +1 to Wisdom and Charisma skills, and +2 to Intelligence skills.

    Seems perfectly functional at 4rhd, as a Rogue, since you get one extra attack to offset the Sneak Attack. As a Bard, however... Yeah, not worth being over a spell level behind, you're already losing a terrible chunk of Bardic Music.
    But wouldn't it be as much, or more functional with 3 rhd? The outshining of the satyr if you add a level of rogue instead of the fourth rogue level is not really overwhelming. You get more defense with natural armor and DR, but less offense (-5 on the horns is a lot, and increases the sneak attack is really important, even more so when the rogue picks up more natural attacks and iteratives later, which slowly offsets the "one more natural attack" thing). And this is kind of the sweet spot for the satyr vs rogue. At lower levels, the sneak attack discrepancy is even more marked, and at higher levels, the rogue has actually good class features earlier. I'm keeping 3 RHD, at least for now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    But wouldn't it be as much, or more functional with 3 rhd? The outshining of the satyr if you add a level of rogue instead of the fourth rogue level is not really overwhelming. You get more defense with natural armor and DR, but less offense (-5 on the horns is a lot, and increases the sneak attack is really important, even more so when the rogue picks up more natural attacks and iteratives later, which slowly offsets the "one more natural attack" thing). And this is kind of the sweet spot for the satyr vs rogue. At lower levels, the sneak attack discrepancy is even more marked, and at higher levels, the rogue has actually good class features earlier. I'm keeping 3 RHD, at least for now.
    The thing of it is that a 4rhd Satyr Rogue 1 can easily be a better skillmonkey of every kind simultaneously due to the +2-to-all-but-Strength allowing more Intelligence spending while meeting the same benchmarks elsewhere, and the equation of damage gradually goes against the Rogue as there's more spare accuracy to afford the -5 and more Sneak Attack dice coming out of the headbutt while also being more durable from the DR 5/Cold Iron. The thing gets increasingly better than Rogue everywhere but situational features like Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense until you hit Special Abilities, and a lot of those will be operating better for you to boot!

    I agree with 3rhd on the basis of Bard because that's much more iconic to the Satyr's themes, even when you don't have The pan-pipes, but made the Rogue comparison because the only non-spellcaster more MAD is a Monk.
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2021-06-06 at 06:54 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    Next time, we'll have a monster who, contrary to the satyr, had no business ever existing outside of 1st edition, and yet here we are, the Sea Cat!
    The Sea Cat had business existing in 1st Edition?


    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    DR 5/Cold Iron (so demons and other Fey with Natural Attacks and the very occasional manufactured weapon user loaded appropriately)
    adjusts glasses Um, actually...
    With the exception of /magic and /epic DR, basically no DR lets natural weapons overcome similar DR. Demons with DR 10/cold iron and good can't overcome /cold iron DR any more than they can overcome /good DR.
    Not sure this changes your analysis, but the more you know.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    Ladies and gentlemen, the one you were all waiting for... Oh no, it's just the sea cat. Did you know that this was supposed to be the same species as the 1st edition sea lion? Even though, while in previous editions the head was definitely a lion's, with fur and no scales, in 3rd and 5th, the entire body is covered in scales, really pushing forward the "this is a fish, it just looks like a lion" part of the monster. Plus, it is described as having gills, so it is indeed a fish, right? Nope. It can only stay underwater for 10 minutes. That's around the same as a dolphin, a full mammal. So it can't live completely underwater, and it can't really live on earth (it can live one week on earth if it is constantly drinking or wet, but will eventually die, and can't really move on earth, having to drag its own body slowly, so it lives mostly in the water. Then why does it have hair!? Wet hair on earth will just slow it down even more and make it look weak, so land predators will attack it, and in the water it will increase water resistance and make it way less discrete everytime it slows down while hunting. This monster really has nothing for it and I find it really hard to imagine where they wanted to go with it. I feel like I'm looking at an inverse Dracovish kind of monster.


    Aaaaaanyway. The sea lion.
    - 6 Magical Beast RHD. At least it's not animal HD, but still, 6 is a lot for a creature with no ability.
    - +8 Str, +2 Dex, +6 Con, -8 Int, +2 Wis, +0 Cha. Generic bad monster ability scores. Total +10, though. Not that bad for a beatstick. That's good, since you can't do anything else than beat people.
    - +8 natural armor. Neat.
    - Darkvision, Low-light vision, scent, hold breath. That seems tailor-made for a monster of the abyss, or at least respectable depth, like a shark. Not one who can only go 1 km deep if it doesn't want to suffocate. Anyway, almost non-abilities.
    - 2 claws with rend and a bite. That's good. You can hammer a lot of things away with those. The bite is secondary, which is even better is you want to use mouthpick aquatic greatswords. Yeah that starts to be really expensive for just "you can use a weapon almost as well as a human", but there's that.

    So, the tarasque in the room: where are you going to use this? It's unusable on earth without high movement speed investment, and it's hard to use in an aquatic campaign since your swim speed is kinda slow and you have to go back to the surface every 100 rounds.

    In the end, you are strong, but hard to use. Just a land magical beast with these stats and 40 ft land speed would have gotten 5 RHD. A bit weaker than the Dire Wolverine in stats, but higher natural armor and full BAB. As it is, 4 RHD seem fine to me. And a pretty strong LA-1 for good measure.

    So, where are your bets? "A wizard did it", and it spread so much that it is now a full blown species, probably an invasive one; or is it some sort of missing link between fish and mammals that still have gills but lost the ability to use them before being able to fully walk on earth? One way or the other, next time, we'll review the shambling mound, the father of all infinite ability loops, way before Pun-Pun, actually available since the ancient days of AD&D 1e, and only disappearing with the coming of 4th edition and the removal of its "grow from lightning" ability.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-06-09 at 12:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    I'm going to guess that the hair is camouflage, making the Sea Cat blend into seaweed and kelp while lying floating in ambush.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    I'm going to guess that the hair is camouflage, making the Sea Cat blend into seaweed and kelp while lying floating in ambush.
    I thought about it, too, of course, but no. You know the problem with ambush? You have to stay at the same place for a long time, waiting for your prey. And when you have to go back to the surface every 10 minutes... Well, I don't think that would work. Are there sea mammals that ambush their preys? I know dolphins and orcas are very proactive in their hunting, dolphins surround a fish school to gather them at the same place, then charges mouth first, hoping to eat as many as possible, and orcas straight up destabilize the ice on which penguins are, or create mini-tidal waves with other orcas to push penguins into the water to eat them.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    "Shambling Mounds, their lore is good, not their statblock!"
    Please put it on a T-shirt.

    So. Swamp vine animated by a thunderbolt a la Frankenstein, which made it resistant to fire and growing from electricity, probably with some manner of humanoid soul trapped inside. Also, what is it with all these monsters that are described as loving to eat shrieker fungi? Don't they see that it automatically makes them eligible for the negative-LA thread?

    - 8 Plant HD. That means lots of immunities, plus it's own lightning immunity (even if we remove the growing factor) and fire resistance, but not full BAB. This is annoying to kill as a monster, and pretty resilient as a PC. That also means that it is immune to crits even though it has a brain and vital organs. Let's not dwell too much on that.
    - +10 Str, +6 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha. Total +10. At least it's not mindless, but those are not good stats for a 8 RHD monster. Or even a 5 RHD monster.
    - +11 Natural Armor. Thou shalt not kill me.
    - Large size, 2 slams with improved grab and constrict, and pretty good damage on it. That is interesting. He could make a pretty good grappler.
    - A few handy skills, and that's all. Really boring compared to what I was expecting.

    I would say 6 RHD. It has 2 BAB less than the average salamander, no fire on its weapons and sh**ty skill points, but +6 Str, and the frankly excellent plant immunities. I think that kind of averages out. Oh, and DLA-1. Once you have the immunities, more plant HD don't do you that much good.

    Next time, we'll have a monster that I completely forgot existed, and that probably has to be forgotten by its master to even be playable: the Shield Guardian!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-07-03 at 11:26 AM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Hmm... I wonder if you can make something stronger using the druid plant companion from Dragon mag.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Large Grappler with extra +5 to attack, damage, and Grapple via Strength, as well as +3 hp/hd from Con. -2 skill points per hd from Intelligence, and -1 to Charisma functions, but neutral Wisdom, so the Psychic Warrior comparison point works well here. To make an attempt at equalizing basic numbers, a Psychic Warrior with an ML no higher than 8 must use the following:

    1pp/round/level Expansion to Large, +2 Str/-2 Dex/-1 AC
    7pp/10 minutes/level Thicken Skin, +3 AC
    5pp/minute/level Force Screen, +5 AC
    1pp/minute/level (Concentration) Deflection Field, +4 AC
    8pp/minute/level Animal Affinity, +4 Str/Con
    3pp/10 minutes/level Specified Energy Adaptation, Energy Resistance 10

    ...And that seems to be it for applicable 3rd-level or lower PsyWar powers. +6 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +11 AC, Energy Resistance 10, for 25 pp per fight. Before your Natural Weapon granters, before speaking of Constrict. At 8th level, you need at least 14 Wis to vaguely ape static properties of a Shambling Mound for a single fight, and have literally two Powers left over to try and compete with the Slams and Constrict. You may be a big dumb beater, but the non-dumb beaters have a horrifyingly difficult time catching up to your numbers. A PsyWar going total burn on matching precisely is still at -4 Str and -2 Con unless they've gone Water Orc, in which case they're at -2 Wisdom as a Psychic Warrior.

    I'd suggest 6 rhd and DNLA -1, because it very much has the numbers to compete with well-built PCs, and 13 levels is enough to turn on most versatility packages.
    Last edited by Morphic tide; 2021-06-12 at 04:17 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    Large Grappler with extra +5 to attack, damage, and Grapple via Strength, as well as +3 hp/hd from Con. -2 skill points per hd from Intelligence, and -1 to Charisma functions, but neutral Wisdom, so the Psychic Warrior comparison point works well here. To make an attempt at equalizing basic numbers, a Psychic Warrior with an ML no higher than 8 must use the following:

    1pp/round/level Expansion to Large, +2 Str/-2 Dex/-1 AC
    7pp/10 minutes/level Thicken Skin, +3 AC
    5pp/minute/level Force Screen, +5 AC
    1pp/minute/level (Concentration) Deflection Field, +4 AC
    8pp/minute/level Animal Affinity, +4 Str/Con
    3pp/10 minutes/level Specified Energy Adaptation, Energy Resistance 10

    ...And that seems to be it for applicable 3rd-level or lower PsyWar powers. +6 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +11 AC, Energy Resistance 10, for 25 pp per fight. Before your Natural Weapon granters, before speaking of Constrict. At 8th level, you need at least 14 Wis to vaguely ape static properties of a Shambling Mound for a single fight, and have literally two Powers left over to try and compete with the Slams and Constrict. You may be a big dumb beater, but the non-dumb beaters have a horrifyingly difficult time catching up to your numbers. A PsyWar going total burn on matching precisely is still at -4 Str and -2 Con unless they've gone Water Orc, in which case they're at -2 Wisdom as a Psychic Warrior.

    I'd suggest 6 rhd and DNLA -1, because it very much has the numbers to compete with well-built PCs, and 13 levels is enough to turn on most versatility packages.
    That's what I was going for too at first. I went down a bit because of the lowish int on a fighter-type, but I agree that it's probably not that important here. Also, in your comparison, you forget that the Psychic Warrior has an armor, while you'll have a hard time finding one for the Mound, and can do something else with their power point than spamming AC bonuses, or dip barbarian and not have to use Animal Affinity... But the mound can do the same, if much later. Granted. Well, as I said, I am also comfortable with 6 RHD/DLA-1 (the 6th RHD has +1 BAB, and +1 in all saves, so that makes it less of a liability compared to a PC level), so I will wait for other people to discuss, and if there is no objection, I will change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzerdrix
    Hmm... I wonder if you can make something stronger using the druid plant companion from Dragon mag.
    I'm not sure what you mean by that. Can an 8th level druid have a Shambling Mound-equivalent as their plant companion? If that's the question, then assuredly no.

    A plant companion of a level 8 druid, having taken Powerful, Ironbark, Alacrity, and Growth Spurt (total: 8th level)
    6 HD, Large, 2 slams (1d6)
    14 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 2 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha, +10 natural armor,

    It has 2 HD (hence 2 BAB) less, -6 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Cha, the same AC and size as the shambling mound, but no immunity to lightning, no improved grab/Constrict, and a way weaker slam. There is no way to give these missing abilities to the plant companion, except by giving it feats, but it won't be the exact same. In the end, I believe it would compare in terms of utility and power to a shambling mound around 12-14th level.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    n your comparison, you forget that the Psychic Warrior has an armor, while you'll have a hard time finding one for the Mound
    Well, armour for unusual (as in nonhumanoid) creatures is an issue explicitly covered by the rules. Sure, it would cost some and it would make the 'mound would look like a Kugelpanzer (which is not necessarily a drawback, mind you), but I'd argue that it's doable.
    Magic items, on the other hand might be a bigger issue.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-06-13 at 04:47 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    "Shield guardians are straightforward in battle, bashing with their heavy stone fists. They are made for defense and are not particularly impressive on offense."

    Yep, the Monster Manual says it itself. In a game whose name is offense, the Shield Guardian is an hermite immortal, able to survive a lot of things but not do much in return. However, even these very mediocre capabilities come with a terrible cost: you are created to be a slave, and a slave you shall remain. Every Shield Guardian is created with an amulet that puts it under the control of the wearer. It is a Shield, after all.
    If an enemy steals your amulet, then that's game over. Even worse than that, you instantly turn against your allies and try to kill them, or just to protect the new wearer. And if the amulet is destroyed? Well, immediate shut down. If a program is not responding, the only solution is to restart it. And by that, I mean recreate an amulet.

    Now, don't get me wrong, there are ways to avoid the amulet being taken by anyone. If the previous wearer dies and the amulet is unattended, the Guardian continues carrying the last instruction out. So we can imagine a dying wearer uttering in his last breath "Aegis... Just be free...", and then awakening you. And then you are free to act. At least if you protect your amulet well. And I mean very well. "I protected my first one by making it out of riverine, buying a light spiked shield with a shield compartment in it, sticking the Amulet in the compartment on the shield, and using an Eternal Wand of Absorb Weapon to absorb the shield into my flesh while I slept." (thank you Zaq for this quote)
    However, in this case, you still lose 3 out of your 4 abilities, which means you might want to trust a teammate with the amulet anyway.

    So, what does that give you?
    - 15 Natural Armor. Ouch. That's a lot. To the point that it's not really relevant anymore. Plus, you're humanoid, and will be able to find an armor easily. You're just not going to be touched by non-touch attacks, period. People trying to kill you will just have to use spells instead. Or just target the wearer of the amulet, if you decide to give it to someone else.
    - Construct traits, and fast healing 5. Fast healing 5 is... neat, especially if your party doesn't have a wizard or an artificer that can heal you, but that's not game-changing on a character meant to be a sponge. Construct immunities, however, are excellent, and make you the wall that you are meant to be.
    - +12 Str, -10 Wis, no Con, no Int. That's just ridiculous at this point. +2 total ability scores and 2 non-abilities is just laughable on a 15 HD creature. Granted, 12 Str is acceptable, but not having anything else ... The +30 HP from a Large size construct help alleviating the lack of constitution, up until mid-level.
    - Find Master, Shield master, Guard master. If you don't hide your amulet, you can give +2 AC, and take half the damage your master takes in their stead. Equivalent to 2nd level spells, but always active and with a high range. That is not bad, but that's just defense, and you much prefer your master not taking damage at all by obliterating your opponents before they can deal them.
    - Spell storing. At first glance, this seems like a contingency spell, with the "when a certain situation occurs", but I really think RAI is that you can just cast the spell as if from a scroll. Underwhelming, but not bad. Can only store spells of up to 4th level that people have cast on you.
    -30 ft movement, 2 bad slams that you will just replace with a 2 handed weapon anyway.


    This monster is a mess. I really don't know what to make of it. Maybe a knight, with its challenges, that will make the monstrous AC have a purpose instead of just being there. But the ability scores are really bad. Just for the defense, I still think it may need 7 RHD. Less Str, less speed and way less HP than the Hill Giant, but more natural armor and the incredible Construct immunities. Plus so-so abilities kinda offsetting the whole amulet deal. With 15 RHD, I think it makes DLA-4 to give it full BAB to compensate for the absence of abilities adapted to these levels.

    That's another monster that I really don't think will ever see play. The contradictions and RP restrictions are just too much in my opinion. Next time, we'll look at the Sphinxes, prepare yourself for philosophical questions!
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

    Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! One deadly attack is all it takes!
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Animal-headed Sphinxes


    What's this kind of monster who always come by four?
    These two come with a face, know of magic and lore.
    They keep gifts from the gods, with might and elegance.
    The other two, weaker, lack much intelligence
    All their beastly nature can be seen on their head
    And they belong in the negative-LA thread.

    All of them have understood, of course that today, we are going to talk about sphinxes. Not the higher gyno- and androsphinxes, but more the much more animalistic Criosphinxes and Hieracosphinxes. As dim-witted sphinxes, they really are just what you would expect: a flying lion with still more mental stats and a different attack on their head.

    Criosphinx, 10 RHD: This monster has the head of a ram on his winged lion body. However, considering that more than half of their description in most editions are about how he mates, it might have been the original head of a satyr before they replaced it with a human one.
    -10 Magical Beast HD. It is important for a beatstick to have full BAB. If you're not going to do anything else, at least you will cut people down effectively.
    - 60ft poor flying. Always nice, but as always with poor flying, you will have a hard time using it in combat, except to get out of reach.
    - +12 Str, +6 Con, +11 Natural Armor, +0 everywhere else. That's... decent. Not that good outside of a purely martial build, but he likes purely martial build, and no malus in intelligence makes it even more desirable.
    - 2 claws, one gore. Standard attack routine. Weaker than claw/claw/bite due to the absence of gore support, but not that bad.
    - Pounce. Pounce? Pounce! The holy Grail of martials. Well, he's not lawful, so he could have just dipped barbarian, but now he can get Improved Grab instead, for an interesting flying grappling build that will make many casters cry.
    Plus, you get Rake for another attack when grappling.
    In the end, I'm pretty surprised to find it not that bad, and I think it deserves 8 RHD. Maybe on the weak side of 8 if he doesn't find Gloves of Man. And DLA-1. Magical Beast HD would make for a bad but half-way playable character at -0, the absence of other abilities really is a problem.

    Hieracosphinx, 9 RHD: I don't really understand what purpose this monster serves when you already have the criosphinx. They really don't vary much compared to each other.
    -9 Magical Beast HD. Beatsticks like full BAB.
    - 90ft poor flying. That's poor alright, but that's fast. With Flyby attack and pounce, you could stay at 90 ft from your opponent, leap towards them, make a full attack, then land 90 ft behind to avoid a counter-attack.
    - +10 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Int, +4 Sag. That's less focused that the Criosphinx, hence worse, and the hit to intelligence isn't nice. +8 Natural Armor. 3 less than the criosphinx.
    - claw claw bite. Bite allows for Mouthpick, but otherwise, the same as criosphinx.
    - Pounce, rake, yaddi yadda potential grappler.

    In the end, the Hieracosphinx has a worse stat repartition, than the criosphinx, worse natural armor and bite damage. But it has better flying. I still think he should be one RHD lower. 7 RHD, DLA-1


    The next monster is hard to look at
    In fact, some could think it's a bat
    Four arms, four wings, but not so four-midable foes
    They will suck your blood as if from a hose.
    Who are they?
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-07-03 at 11:31 AM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    Stirges have problems. And I don't mean only their inconsistent number of wings, or the fact that they are somtimes described as bugs, sometimes as mammals, and sometimes even as birds, with feathers either only on the body, on the wings, or both. These are just standard "wizard did it" problems. Their problem is, mechanically, they are hyper-specialized on a trick that doesn't work.

    -1 Magical Beast RHD. That is pretty good. Not the type itself, since it only gives you darkvision in the end, but the fact that you get to replace the RHD with your first class level, and hence start at ECL 1.
    -Tiny size, 40ft average flying. Casters love them. They would love it more with good maneuverability, but by the time you really need your move action in your turn, you will be able to improve maneuverability. Effectively +2 to hit and AC is also pretty good.
    - -8 Str, +8 Dex, +0 Con, -10 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha. Total: -12. There it is. Two unuseable stats, including Int, and hyper specialization in Dex (with a nice Weapon Finesse bonus feat to top it off). These make and unmake the stirge.
    - Touch attack, Blood Drain, Attach. The only abilities of the stirge, and the reason why I say it doesn't work as a monster. It's grappling that doesn't restrain the opponent since you're tiny, and that just doesn't work since you have no Str, despite the hefty racial bonus (long past are the times where stirges just couldn't be removed while alive). And you can only use it twice before just flying away and digesting for a week. Yep. As is, the stirge is pretty bad.
    -And they tried what they could to make it unuseable by PCs as well. Notably, you can't speak, and you don't have hands. And you don't have mouth. So you can't cast spells without a feat tax, and you can't wield a weapon whatever you try (except with gloves of man, but you're not spending 42k for a tiny weapon damage anytime soon).


    So it has problems, and if you play one, you will feel it every day of the campaign. But the difficulties to play it only apply to base classes from the PHB. If you play an ardent, you don't have to wield weapons, you don't have to use your horrible blood drain in combat, and you don't have to use Str. If you play an unarmed swordsage with a monk level, you can attack with any part of your body and not worry about your size malus on damage. And in both cases, you can still fly and get your size bonuses. You'll still have miserable intelligence and not have a useable move action for a while, which will harm your ability to psionic focus cripplingly, and your ability to prestige class later, but that would be quite useable.

    Playing a stirge has its perks, notably this incredible Dex, but let's not fool anyone here, it's still pretty bad. However, there's really no way to improve it. It has only 1 RHD, which gets replaced, so you can't use RHDR, and all its issues clearly do not amount to a full level ahead in manifesting compared to a base class, especially when it has a bonus on its manifesting stat. So in the end, 1 RHD, and DLA-0. No change compared to the original thread.

    Next time, we will look at swarms! Inching ever closer to the Tarasque...
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-06-23 at 05:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Swarms (Rats and insects)


    I could have also chosen "all non-carnivorous ones", or "all those where your lips don't touch each other when pronouncing it, plus hellwasps", but that would have been too long.

    Swarms are a weird bunch, in that they will invariably be unplayable at high level and unkillable at low level. Their natural properties are just that overwhelming. No targeted spells means no buffing 99% of the time (even Personal effects do affect a specific number of creatures (only the caster)), and considering how necessary that is for everybody, and especially for casters to protect themselves from harm, this is a big problem. I really don't know how they would interact with items. Would they just have one member wear them and the items give benefits to the whole swarm? Or not be able to use items at all? Also, they can't make iteratives or sneak attacks, and they have to enter the opponent's space to attack them. And you are vulnerable to all AoE effects. And finally, you won't ever get rid of these with polymorph, since there is no AoE polymorph effect that I know of.

    On the other hand, you are totally impervious to weapon damage and all targeted effects. In most cases, this is more defense than incorporeality and undead immunities combined, without the turning weakness. Like, how do you even fight one of those at low levels? You'll notice that DLA makes ECL really close to the number of RHD. This is because whatever your kind of RHD, they will really not help you much when you have abysmal Int and no attack needing an attack roll.

    So, I'm going to assume a low-level game, since whatever the number of RHD or DLA I choose, they will still be underpowered above ECL 10. So, how do you play a monster that can't use regular attacks, can't make somatic components, and most probably has -8 Int? As with a lot of these "exotic" monsters, the answer is probably wisdom-based manifester, or invocation user.


    Centipedes, 9 RHD: Nine!? It has worse stats than the bats and really nothing to make up for it! And it doesn't fly! 2 RHD, DLA-5, and you'll have to explain to me what is +4 natural armor worth when you are immune to weapon damages and to all targeted effects.

    Hellwasps, 12 RHD: Yay! Full BAB! If only you could make attack rolls beyond your eldritch blast. The only swarm that can be affected by single-target mind-affecting, and you are effectively disabled by becoming mindless when you have low health, but it makes up for it with fire resistance, not really useful damage reduction, pretty good stats, and especially Inhabit, which all but suppresses the swarm's weakness to AoE and breaks the action economy all in one. In the end, Inhabit will still be lacking in the minionmancy department, though. I'd say a strong 4 or a weak 5. Let's go with 5 RHD, and DLA-5.

    Locust, 6 RHD: Worse stats than the bats, poor flying instead of good, and not even some poison on the swarm attack. 2 RHD, DLA-3.

    Rats, 4 RHD: No real ability, no flying, and you are not even completely immune to weapon damage, since you are Tiny. Where do I sign? 2 RHD, only because I don't want to allow immunity to targeted effects at ECL 1. DLA-2. One bonus feat and a few hit points compared to the RHDR version will not make it broken.


    And here are the swarms! Thank you inevitability for putting some guideline with some of them being LA+0.
    Sorry for being late, I had things going on IRL, and I couldn't post for a bit. Next time, we will have the king of the negative-LA thread; the representative of RHD bloat; the world-shattering, unplayable behemoth: the Tarasque!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-07-06 at 02:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    I mentioned this over in the Swarm Shifter discussion in the LA thread, but swarms can make solid Scouts. A Swarm Attack is still an attack, and since it doesn't require an action, activating Skirmish is trivial for a swarm. Plus it never misses and can hit multiple enemies. And Scouts have Evasion and a good Ref save, shoring up a swarm's only real defensive weakness. Go Swift Hunter to bypass immunity and throw in Wild Shape Ranger and you've got yourself a build.

    Not as good offensively as a traditionally optimized Swift Hunter build, which will be making full attacks with Skirmish, but way stronger defensively, and never misses.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2021-06-30 at 05:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    I mentioned this over in the Swarm Shifter discussion in the LA thread, but swarms can make solid Scouts. A Swarm Attack is still an attack, and since it doesn't require an action, activating Skirmish is trivial for a swarm. Plus it never misses and can hit multiple enemies. And Scouts have Evasion and a good Ref save, shoring up a swarm's only real defensive weakness. Go Swift Hunter to bypass immunity and throw in Wild Shape Ranger and you've got yourself a build.

    Not as good offensively as a traditionally optimized Swift Hunter build, which will be making full attacks with Skirmish, but way stronger defensively, and never misses.
    That's an interesting take on it. However, the power (if you can say that for one of the damage-wise weakest base class) of the scout, and generally any precision-based character is the ability to make several attacks and apply the damage bonus on all of them. When the swarm is always limited to one attack... Well, that's not ideal. However, that can be a pretty good addition in other builds, like a touch-attack-centered character. For the price of one level and a feat (Craven), you can deal number of HD hit points basically for free every turn. I'm not sure there are many invocations or psionic power that would benefit from the swarm being close to melee, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here





    The bane of all adventurers, stronger, bigger and tougher than a half-minotaur Fire Giant, absolutely unkillable in normal circumstances (which monsters have Wish as an SLA anyway, except Genies?), with more immunities than the typical wizard has HP and more damage per round than a low-epic barbarian if it can full attack. The Tarasque is the creature in the monster manual with the highest number of RHD, and will remain it until a year later and the publication of the Epic Level Handbook. You really can't describe the Tarrasque with anything else than superlatives. The biggest, but also the baddest and the why-doesn't-it-have-mind-affecting-immunity-est. In fact, it's even worse than that. "The Tarrasque" is a superlative. I have read several times the "with this build, you could even wrestle the Tarrasque", or "even the Tarrasque can't resist this spell".

    The Tarrasque is extremely strong, but has too many glaring weaknesses, which have led to people trying to "fix" it, and reconcile its stats with its reputation as the most unforgiving, party- and world-destroying monster of all. Pathfinder gave it more immunities and a ranged attack to make it a real challenge. This pretty high number of threads tried to improve it by giving it items, feats or changing it's statblock. Tippy proposed to just have an epic psion True Mind Switch with it. And what did WotC do? Well, 4e and 5e fully embraced the "outclassed" side of it and just shoved the Tarrasque under the carpet, removing most of it's unkillableness and reducing it to just another strong warrior-type monster.

    Spoiler: Because Inevitability didn't do it
    Show

    Long post about epic levels, CR/HD imbalance and the viability of warrior-types beyond level 5


    (This is not a particularly interesting rant, with just generalities, it was just because of the original thread)

    The Tarrasque is the representation of the problem of Level Adjustment as a whole, and the idea of playing as a monster. The monsters of D&D are just not meant to be the same as players, especially not in a 3.5 game where the "attack" and "defense" of players are not balanced with one another. The "attack" of players must be balanced with the "defense" of monsters, and vice-versa. And in a game where the damage output greatly outpaces the number of levels, at an exponential rate no less, a high CR monster must inevitably have a much higher number of HD. If it didn't, then anything that increases damage, or people who optimize their DC a little bit could just blow monsters with average HP or saves away in one spell or one hit. This is pretty much always the case, and the only real way to have similar CR and HD is to give monsters PC-only kinds of abilities, such as spellcasting monsters, or those with enough abilities to be a challenge without having to directly engage with the PCs. But that means that, in turn, PCs will just be on a race to defeat this boss with greatly increased offensive capabilities instead of defensive ones. It is an interesting take, but most of the time, WotC prefers that their final boss last more than 2 rounds, especially if, like in the case of the Tarrasque, they're known for their durability.
    And that leads into the second problem: warrior-type monsters. These monsters, or characters who are really only about hitting something hard and taking hits. The problem is that 3.5 is a really vast game, and there are a lot of ways to bypass just toughness alone. Which means that if you're not immune to all saves-or-lose (which is kind of impossible), or have a way to restrain the people who can actually cast these (which, by definition, warrior-types haven't) you're going to be taken out very quickly as soon as these "you-lose" effect appear, mostly at level 5 to 7, but down to level 1 for some of them. And this is even more the case in high level, very-high level, and epic level. Epic-level characters can literally do anything. 9th level spells are utterly broken, prestige classes can turn anybody into someone capable of dealing NI amounts of damage or incapacitating almost anything instantly, and we don't even talk about epic spellcasting. An epic level adventure is not about "just higher numbers", it's about something novel and interesting, puzzle encounters more than fighting ones. This is what WotC didn't understand, or at least didn't in the MM1. Monsters in the ELH are more than what the Tarrasque is, and encounters in Elder Evils are even better defined, but none of them deal with levels as high as 48. A monster that can only do one thing will just not be able to hold its candle at these ECL.


    So, let's summarize the beast (no detailed commentary, just assume that everything except its intelligence is absolutely godlike, but just not godlike enough for 48 Magical Beast RHD):

    - +34 Str, +6 Dex, +24 Con, -8 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha
    - +30 Natural Armor, Colossal size (pretty low total AC of 35, for a CR 20 monster)
    - 6 Natural weapons including Bite (18-20/x3) and Tail (Prehensile Tail, anybody?)
    - Improved Grab, Swallow Whole, with incredible grapple checks
    - 20ft speed, but can increase to 150ft for one round when it matters
    - Frightful Presence, not good with RHDR, but can be incredible with DNLA.
    - Immunities to: ability damage, death effects (still deals a lot of damage and you can have to regenerate little by little), sickness, poison, all line and cone effects (30% chance to send back to the caster, I don't know if that applies to an eldritch blast) and energy drain.
    - Even if your spells should affect it, RM 32 (or RHD-16, which is awful), damage reduction 15/epic
    - Finally, Regeneration 40 with no bypass. That's the big point.
    - not immune to : Polymorph and petrification effects, mind-affecting effects, ability drain, daze, stun, paralysis, nonlethal damage.


    Spoiler: RHD Reduction. Final verdict: 20 RHD
    Show

    So, the big question here: does this deserve to be epic? With only these stats, and no immunities, I would say it should be around 14 RHD-15 RHD, huge Str, natural armor and all that. But then there are the immunities and regeneration. On a regular character, one of the first thing you should ask yourself when going in really high levels is "How can I be immune to what my character is the most vulnerable to?". In the case of the Tarrasque, it's a bit different: "how can I be immune to everything I am not already immune to?" And that is quite possible, due to one simple thing: you are immune to lethal damage. That is huge, heck, colossal. Please take a look at the Favor of Ilmater spell, for example, then compare it to the list of non-immunities of the Tarrasque. With just one persisted spell, there really is nothing that people can do to you, except mind-affecting effects, and even that can be overcome (Deformity(Madness) if you accept to be Evil, or Warblade 1/Martial Study->Moment of Perfect Mind). There are also other ways to be kind of immune to nonlethal damage, like a Contingent regeneration when you get to more than 868 points of damage. I know we're reaching levels where wanting a balanced scaling is kind of a lost cause, but when a character has almost complete immunity to everything in the game short of a Disjunction (and even then, good luck to be able to cast disjunction on something with a 20ft reach), I just can't see it be really underpowered pre-epic. If I let the Tarasque have even one level, then it can choose Warblade to be able to use MoPM each round instead of once per encounter, or Hulking Hurler to just throw houses up to 125 ft and deal 450d6 (and that is with no investment in Str, items, or anything. The Tarrasque is just an out-of-the-box optimized War Hulk), or simply Barbarian to be able to Charge for 300ft then full attack on anything there. If you rule that it can wield weapons, it's even worse, since it can Full attack on top of it's 5 natural attacks without even having to take Mouthpick or Prehensile Tail. All that with being immune to basically everything. (Also you can literally carry the party on your back when charging, so everyone can be moved 150ft with a move action)
    This will not be wizard-tier, of course, but none of the monsters covered here will ever be. But this will be a good functional martial character, if you get a few items. I think a good rating is 20 RHD for the Tarrasque. As it is, it is extremely strong and difficult to kill with the right feats and items, but it won't be overwhelming in a non-epic game. And then you can take Hulking Hurler 1 as your first epic level with Distant Shot as your first epic feat, and immediately you reach kind of epic levels of power, being able to deal "you lose" amounts of bludgeoning damage to anything whatever the distance if it is not immune (and really, being immune to bludgeoning damage is kind of harder to get than functional immunity to energy damage, or to spells). You will pretty quickly get access to a lot of really strong effects in a few levels, and really, that's what I imagine low-epic should look like for a martial character.


    Spoiler: Direct Negative LA - Final Verdict : DLA-23
    Show

    DNLA: Now, we're definitely epic. Which means, while we're at it, and since there's no limit on HD anymore, you can even put some templates on the Tarrasque, why not, what would you lose? 2 epic feats and a few bonuses? Once you get Distant Shot and maybe Uncanny Accuracy or Epic Speed, there are not really a lot of Epic feats that benefit you. So you can make something like a Spellwarped Gravetouched Ghoul Tarrasque (the idea of an undead Tarrasque is absolutely ridiculous, but I love it.). That means the immunity to both mind-affecting and nonlethal damage becomes etched into your character, so even Disjunction will not really make anything. You become vulnerable to turning, but since this is DNLA, you'll probably not have to worry too much about that, since you have many HD more than a lot of threats you'll encounter. Another advantage of having 48 RHD is that your frightful presence is actually useful. A fear effect that only affects people once every 24h is not really good at epic-levels, but there's that. More interesting is the spell resistance, which becomes much more interesting with your full RHD, even though still probably irrelevant in most cases (any spellcaster at this level will have pumped its caster level high enough that SR 32 will be beaten with a natural 1).
    So, what are 28 RHD worth of saves, attack bonus HP, and 9 epic feats, plus Frightful Presence, the ability to go undead with no real problem and SR worth? Well, quite a lot, but not that much, really. As I said, 9 epic feats will probably go to waste pretty quickly, and +28 to hit is still enormous, but you should be able to hit next-to-anything anyway with your native +37 (before any bonuses). I believe an ECL 25 to be... I won't say balanced, since there is no balance at this level, but fun to play. DLA -23 for the Big T.


    And you, yeah, you reading this! What do you think? How would the Tarrasque fare in this kind of environment?




    Another one monster where I went a bit overboard. When I was searching for Tarrasque informations, I found Tarrasques from all editions, with or without hands, bipedal or quadrupedal, undead or flying Tarrasques, Warhammer 40k Chaos-corrupted Tarrasques, Tarrasques on cards of any kind, from Magic to Pokémon, mythologically accurate Tarrasques, Rule 34'd genderbent Tarrasques (several of those), chibi Tarrasques, Robot Tarrasques, realistic Tarrasques, Tarrasque plushies and homebrew humanoid Tarrasque races for days.

    There should be some sort of Internet rule that "if it exists, then there is a Tarrasque-related version of it". No other D&D-specific monster has recieved the same treatment, even mimics and beholders. This monster has become so iconic that it has become a representation of the worst D&D monster, whatever the setting. Its actual stats don't really matter in most cases. If your DM wants to describe "an invincible monster", then it's the Tarrasque they'll choose, and whatever you'll try to beat it will fail. Because the Tarrasque's best defense isn't its immortality. It's not its shell, or its claws, or its damage reduction. It's plot armor. It isn't as much a monster as a McGuffin, a plot point to kickstart a campaign. And with all that said, I feel it is pretty sad to see such a monster be all but forgotten and nerfed into oblivion in 5e, who removed it's most important feature, its immortality, to just make it another big monster. This is a trend that we see with a lot of monsters or spells with iconic abilities that would just not translate well in newer, more well-defined editions. The Shambling Mound doesn't grow anymore from lightning, Conjure Elemental doesn't summon a Huge elemental from a 5th level slot, but with no way to control it, the ghost doesn't age you 10 years per touch attack. This is for the good of balance, but this is a world-building diversity and richness that we may never get back.

    Anyway, thank you for reading (don't worry, I promise next posts will be shorter, I just had to make honor to big T), and see you next time for the Tendriculos!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-07-03 at 02:56 PM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post



    So, let's summarize the beast (no detailed commentary, just assume that everything except its intelligence is absolutely godlike, but just not godlike enough for 48 Magical Beast RHD):

    - +34 Str, +6 Dex, +24 Con, -8 Int, +4 Sag, +4 Cha
    is Sag the french abbreviation for Wisdom?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remuko View Post
    is Sag the french abbreviation for Wisdom?
    Oh crap, you're right. It's "sagesse" in french. I change that right away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    Then why does it have hair!?
    Presumably the same reason seals, polar bears, otters, and (real) sea lions have hair: Protection from the elements. Marine mammal fur is actually good at keeping cold water away from the skin, trapping a layer of air between the body and the ocean for insulation.
    Granted, the distribution of fur is rather inexplicable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    Are there sea mammals that ambush their preys?
    Technically, yes. Polar bears are often considered marine mammals, and they are well-known for ambushing seals. They don't hide out underwater to ambush them, but it's technically a marine mammal ambushing prey.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    However, considering that more than half of their description in most editions are about how he mates, it might have been the original head of a satyr before they replaced it with a human one.
    What's with that, anyways? Is establishing them as sphinx-rapists really that important?!?

    I don't really understand what purpose [the hieracosphinx] serves when you already have the criosphinx. They really don't vary much compared to each other.
    The hieracosphinx is the incel to the criosphinx's PUA. So yeah, they're pretty redundant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    There should be some sort of Internet rule that "if it exists, then there is a Tarrasque-related version of it". No other D&D-specific monster has recieved the same treatment, even mimics and beholders. This monster has become so iconic that it has become a representation of the worst D&D monster, whatever the setting.
    Quoted for truth.

    This is for the good of balance, but this is a world-building diversity and richness that we may never get back.
    Ditto. This is how I feel about a lot of 5e's changes—they obviously play better at the table, but the absence of that broken garbage leeches out a certain je ne se quois from the game/setting as a whole. Making creatures/classes with such vibrant and varied abilities without breaking the game one way or another is tricky, but I wish WotC would push the envelope more.
    (I wonder if some kind of "set rotation" system like MtG has would open up that kind of design space? If the designers only had to worry about combos with core material and stuff released from the last X books, would they be more free to allow characters to pick up some wacky abilities? Seems like something worth a bit of thought, even if that thought will probably conclude that it's a dumb idea.)
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  22. - Top - End - #112
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Update: You don't have to stack templates to change its type twice to make an undead Tarrasque! There is a way easier way! I just found the spell "Undeath after Death" (Initiate of Bane 7), which works on any creature and lets it keep all its special attacks and qualities, while changing it into undead when they die. That's even possible pre-epic, you just need 2 scrolls (UaD and Miracle to kill yourself, 31,100 gp, pocket money at level 20), and an evil cleric to cast both (and let's be honest, you're the Tarrasque, if you don't have evil clerics following you, you did something wrong), and poof, immunity to everything and +2 turn resistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Technically, yes. Polar bears are often considered marine mammals, and they are well-known for ambushing seals. They don't hide out underwater to ambush them, but it's technically a marine mammal ambushing prey.
    Technically correct is the best kind of correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    What's with that, anyways? Is establishing them as sphinx-rapists really that important?!?
    Of course! Almost as important as establishing that the Remorhaz leaks its fiery fluid when it is aroused! That's primordial!! It seems WotC has some sort of fixation on explaining how every iconic monster mates. Do you know about the Youtube series "What they don't tell you about...", from MrRhexx? It has become kind of a joke in his community that whenever a video is long enough, it will always come back to the reproduction of the monster.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    leeches out a certain je ne se quois from the game/setting as a whole.
    I don't know, I find the fact that the french expression "un certain je-ne-sais-quoi" gets just used in english with no translation whatsoever hilarious, and even more that "certain" is not italicized, when it's almost just as much part of the idiom as the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    (I wonder if some kind of "set rotation" system like MtG has would open up that kind of design space? If the designers only had to worry about combos with core material and stuff released from the last X books, would they be more free to allow characters to pick up some wacky abilities? Seems like something worth a bit of thought, even if that thought will probably conclude that it's a dumb idea.)
    This kind of reasoning works well in a competitive game, like MtG, where there are tournaments and prize money, but putting some arbitrary restrictions on which books are allowed and which aren't would not be easily accepted by the players (or they would just ignore it for their game). Plus, lots of problematic things are in Core, and they are there because the devs are never sure what might break the game at first.

    For more competitive play, like RPGA for 3.5 and Adventurer's League for 5e, they tried to just limit restrictions to a minimum. For example, they banned Polymorph, and only Polymorph, from the PHB. In 4th edition, they banned Spellscarred from Forgotten Realms's Player's Guide (I have no idea what it is, I just looked up the rules for RPGA, but the point is, they banned only very specific problematic things). I think that's a good rule, if a bit hard on the devs, because D&D, and ttrpg in general is an environment where you like to create your character and have options to do so.

    But what I find really genius is what they chose for 5e. In 2016, a few months after 5e was released, the Adventurer's League ruleset was changed. You could choose from every published book, but only one except core. This was called the PHB+1 rule (Player's Handbook + one other book). I think this really is one of the best ways to rule this, since you only have to playtest the expansions with the PHB and not with everything else, while still letting people choose basically what they want if they are a big fan of one specific thing. So yeah, they were pretty much using what you're suggesting, but letting players choose which "expansion pack" they want.

    ...Aaaaaaaand they removed it. Did players complain? I have never played with this ruleset, so maybe it was really restrictive, but I guess you could still have a pretty decent character, and it would reduce the amount of munchkinism possible. I still don't really understand what they which to replace it with, but, yeah. Here it is. As of now, 5e has just about the same laxist ruleset as 3.5 and 4e had.
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    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    The tendridiculous, as some call it (nobody does, this monster is that forgettable). Badly written, with reach that applies to both tendrils and bite even though it's clearly not intended for the latter, and regeneration that makes no sense whatsoever (bludgeoning and acid... why?). No lore to speak of (the lore is litterally "A wizard did it, question mark?"). And finally, low mental stats and no original useable ability. Next.

    - 9 Plant RHD. It likes the immunities a lot, but losing 3 BAB hurts a lot.
    - +18 Str, -2 Dex, +12 Con, -8 Int, -2 Wis, -8 Cha, +9 Natural Armor. That's a strong boi. Real strong. But nothing else and no skill points.
    - Huge size. We like those.
    - Regeneration. Still can't understand these weaknesses, but nice.
    - Improved Grab, Swallow Whole, Paralysis. That would be much better if it could wield weapons and didn't have to have a Mouthpick weapon to use iteratives.

    Well, this screams PsyWarrior. The tendriculos would make a good grappler with a few powers. It would take some Wisdom investment and would hard-press the tendriculos even more to take full BAB classes if it wants to get 4 iteratives, but would still be really strong. That said, the best scenario would be to get Gloves of Man. Without, the tendriculos will have a hard time reconciling iteratives and grappling.

    I would also like to see some tripping build with a 45ft reach on a mouthpick spiked chain.

    In the end, the Tendriculos is definitely stronger than the Shambling Mound, and has more attacks, but much less intelligence, and Regeneration instead of the elemental immunities. I don't know if 7 or 8 RHD is better, but since there were a few LA+0 in the original thread, let's go with 8 RHD and DLA-1 for the Tendriculos.

    Small entry today, and next time will probably be no different. See you then for the Thoqqa!
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    I support 8 RHD, it's the 9th that really hurts anyway.

    Is this not a popular monster? Maybe it's just my core-only upbringing, but I've used these guys more than once. They're great.
    Last edited by H_H_F_F; 2021-07-08 at 03:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Fun Fact: It's possible to grow a Tendriculous without stomach acid and then train it as a mount that you ride from inside its mouth.
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  26. - Top - End - #116
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    I support 8 RHD, it's the 9th that really hurts anyway.

    Is this not a popular monster? Maybe it's just my core-only upbringing, but I've used these guys more than once. They're great.
    I don't know... I've used and seen used a lot of trolls and shambling mounds, but never a tendriculos. I really don't think it is really popular anywhere, but if you say you have used it, then why not.
    I can tell with some measure of certainty that even at least some of the devs didn't really care about it, though. They didn't even check to be consistent when translating the name. Which means, in french, it has different names in 3.5 and Pathfinder (respectively "Tendricule" and "Tendriculaire"). Also, a quick search of the name in google displays 4,500 results for the tendriculos, that's around the same as the tojanida (the weird diformed turtle, we'll cover it in a week or so) and 10 times less than a less-than-iconic, 3.5-only monster like the mohrg. So, yeah. Really not that popular.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Fun Fact: It's possible to grow a Tendriculous without stomach acid and then train it as a mount that you ride from inside its mouth.
    Where did you find that? That would be extremely uncomfortable and remove most of the combat ability of the Tendriculos, but it would be incredibly cool to see a tendriculos come up to you, open its mouth, and you see a wizard casually walking off it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    Where did you find that? That would be extremely uncomfortable and remove most of the combat ability of the Tendriculos, but it would be incredibly cool to see a tendriculos come up to you, open its mouth, and you see a wizard casually walking off it.
    Arms & Equipment Guide, pg 87. The seed costs 3,000gp, and if you pay to have it trained that's another 2,000 (or you could make the DC 27 check to rear it yourself). Like you said, it's not the most effective mount, but sometimes you just have to go for novelty and style.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darths & Droids
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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    You: the Thoqqua
    The one she tells you not to worry about: the Remorhaz

    Man, that's an unfavorable anatomy if I've ever seen one. No arms, no legs, no appendices for Gloves of Man, and not even a mouth (Why would it? It feeds by just melting minerals and adding them to its body. Note that 2e gave it a mouth anyway, with no real justification). And the flexible body coupled with non-controllable Heat means you will never be able to wear armor. The Thoqqua has no bite for mouthpick, no tail for prehensile tail and no appendices at all. You will not wield a weapon anytime soon. Or ever, really (save for some graft shenanigans). The Thoqqua is saved from not being able to do any iteratives by the existence of the monk, and at least one level in this class is kind of mandatory on any Thoqqua build (or unarmed swordsage, if you rule that they can unarmed strike with any part of their body too).

    - Medium, 3 Elemental RHD. Bad but not many of them. The point is, you lose one BAB.
    - +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis, that's some fighting potential. The Int hit is not even that bad and should allow you to get a few skills with a bit of investment.
    - 7 natural armor. Impressive on a 3RHD creature. That balances quite well the impossibility to wear armor, and still allows for the monk abilities (you have a wisdom bonus, which means you'll likely get a very respectable AC)
    - Worst body shape ever, with around half the slots of an humanoid.
    - Heat, and Burn. A boon and a curse. On the one hand, you get a respectable 2d6 on every slam and unarmed strike, and discourage grappling you. On the other hand, your teammates won't like giving you touch buffs, and you'll have to fireproof some of your items. Burn is anecdotal.
    - Burrowing speed and tremorsense are always interesting, if not game-changing.

    In the end, not much to say here. You have some nice damage and AC bonus and some issues in its everyday life (good luck sleeping in an hotel when you burn every wooden building you enter, for example). 2 RHD seem balanced to me. It will be much better at low-level than later. Also, DLA-0. It has a lot of things going for it, even if it doesn't seem like much.

    After Fire and Earth, it's time for Water! Next time, we'll cover possibly the weirdest shaped monster of the manual: the Tojanida!
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    I don't know, I find the fact that the french expression "un certain je-ne-sais-quoi" gets just used in english with no translation whatsoever hilarious, and even more that "certain" is not italicized, when it's almost just as much part of the idiom as the rest.
    "je ne sais quoi" sounds more like a thing than "I don't know what". The foreign language gives it a...well, you know.

    As to why the "certain" isn't italicized...I dunno, probably because we stole that word long enough ago that we forgot it was ever French. Whatever the reason, the idiom slimmed down when it was adopted by the English (or some time thereafter maybe, all I see is the end result).

    ...Aaaaaaaand they removed it. Did players complain? I have never played with this ruleset, so maybe it was really restrictive, but I guess you could still have a pretty decent character, and it would reduce the amount of munchkinism possible.
    PHB+1 would probably be better if more potential +1's had a wide variety of content. Look at Volo's Guide to Monsters for the most extreme version of this; pretty much the only PC-relevant content they got was new races. If you wanted to play a full-orc or a lizardfolk, you were locked into core for everything else. Yeah, you can build a pretty decent character with those restrictions, but you can build a pretty decent character with PHB+0 too.

    (PHB+1 probably wouldn't be as bad if sourcebooks were designed more like the 3.5 Races of X books, with content united more by theme than mechanical role.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    ...regeneration that makes no sense whatsoever (bludgeoning and acid... why?)
    If you cut a vine, it'll just grow back. So obviously, if you club a vine, it won't.
    No, I haven't actually tried this, why do you ask?

    (Acid is pretty straightforward. The absence of fire is bizarre, though.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade Wolf View Post
    Ah, thank you very much GreatWyrmGold, you obviously live up to that name with your intelligence and wisdom with that post.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Tojanidas (Adult and Elder)


    Okay, sometimes, you've got to give credit where it's due. And today credit is definitely due to the Pathfinder devs. Their work on the Tojanidas is admirable, and they turned a highly boring and pretty silly monster in an interesting plot point that could be integrated in quite a lot of campaigns. And all this while changing almost nothing in their statblock and keeping most of its existing lore, just building on it.

    The 3.5 Tojanida: weird, misshaped creature, seemingly intelligent but only has interest in food. Can reorganize its limbs and head to see all around it, which makes it look ridiculous... And that's all.

    The Pathfinder Tojanida: coming from an ancient race of Water Elementals, they where stuck in this form by some ancient magic. They are blessed and cursed with an absolute memory of all the members of their race, which means they can't find new satisfaction or knowledge anywhere, since they know everything they can. They only have interest in food, yes, but that's because it's the last thing they can still enjoy. They are still proud creatures who like to show off their knowledge to polite members of lesser races. Their all-around vision now stems from hundred of eyes around its shell, which is much less silly looking.

    I highly encourage you to use the Pathfinder version of this monster's lore whenever you want instead of the 3.5 version. Plus, the Pathfinder statblock is almost identical to the 3.5 Adult Tojanida one, so this rating will be relevant for both. Isn't that incredible?

    And now, back to the rating! As a reminder, the juvenile one got a weak +0 LA in Inevitability's thread with 3 RHD.

    Adult, 7 RHD: A juvenile Tojanida going up to Adult is probably the evolved monster gaining the least amount of things in the game. It gains +2 Natural Armor, +2 Str, and Medium size. And that's all. Medium size being probably more of a downside that anything else (you lose the bonus to-hit and to AC while not gaining reach or significant damage. Plus your Improved Grab is not really more versatile now than it was one size smaller. PCs will just not encounter many Small size enemies worth grappling). Same number of RHD as the lower one, 3 RHD, and since the Outsider RHD is still pretty good, I believe DLA-1 is fair. Maybe -2 would have been better but that's a big difference and I prefer the conservative option.

    Elder, 15 RHD: As turtles, Tojanidas never stop growing, and they are now Large, possibly even able to grab something with Improved Grab! Compared to the Adult, +6 Str, +4 Con, +2 natural armor. That's even less than what they would have gotten by advancing to the next size normally. Anyway, and since they have full BAB and a lot of skill points with no hit to Int, I think they deserve 5 RHD. Large size helps them much more than Medium. And DLA-5 if you don't go epic. This one is a bit eyeballed. A lot of Outsider HD on an otherwise mediocre monster do not make for an easy rating.

    Those were a lot of -0 creatures back-to-back in the monster manual. The next one is quite a bit later, and is another evolved monster: the Truly Horrid Humber Hulk! (What, was Abominable Shrimpman taken?)
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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