Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

[Beni-Kujaku]

Umber Hulks

You may be badass, but are you "willingly getting swallowed by purple worms just for the thrill of killing it from the inside for sport" badass? Umber Hulks are. That's one over-the-top monster that doesn't know if it wants to be an insect or a vertebrate. Two sets of eyes, one compound, one with pupil and iris; one reptile-like jaw with vertebrate teeth, but mandibules on top of it, and hands with fingers at the end of insectile limbs with joints. Also, the 4th edition art is dabbing. It's awesome, don't get me wrong, but it's dabbing.
Some sources say that their race is impossibly old, existing since the very dawn of the universe, before the primordials were even replaced by the gods. That makes very little sense, considering they have characteristics of "modern" animals, like compound eyes, but then again, even primordials look like humans in this world so that might not be that weird.

Mechanically, the Umber Hulks are, with the medusa, the poster boys for gaze attacks, a pretty potent kind of ability that will work extremely well against everybody that is not aware of it, and much less against somebody that is. Most monsters won't. (total concealment from everyone who doesn't want to make one or two Will saves per round is pretty good, especially when we know what happens when a lot of people are confused around each other. Out of combat, you can restrain yourself to your compound eyes and close the ones with the confusing effect, but in-combat, note that you might affect any ally that looks in your general direction.

Regular, 8 Aberration RHD:

- +12 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, +2 Cha, total +24, and +8 natural armor. That's... Alright. That would be strong on a 4-5 RHD beatstick. On a 8 RHD monster, that's underwhelming. Having no malus, especially in Int, is good.
- Large size, 2 claws and one bite, on a body that can most probably wield weapons. Nice.
- 20ft movement land and burrow. Not good. You will have a hard time getting in melee.
- 60ft darkvision and tremorsense. Standard burrowing package. Pretty high range, but nothing game-changing.
- Confusion Gaze. Your bread and butter. A lot of problems (mind-affecting, can affect your allies, people have still a chance to act normally when under its influence...), but free action save-or-suck are always extremely good, and when it is an AoE on top of that, that's game-changing.

In the end, this monster is borderline playable as-is, depending on the circumstances and how you rule Confusion Gaze (are any allies in range affected, or are people that are obviously turning away from you immune; can you close the confusing pair of eyes while keeping the other one, or do you have to wear goggles all the time and spend a move action to remove them....). In the end, I think the Umber Hulk wouls still like to only have 7 RHD, but that DLA -1 would be too much, so DLA -0. Do discuss.

Truly Horrid, 20 RHD: I surprisingly really like this naming. This really sounds like something that primitive people would call a bigger, scarier version of an ancient monster. "There was an Umber Hulk gang, but then, there was another one, but bigger, like 15 ft high, you know, a truly horrid one!"

So, compared to the smaller version, you get:
- Huge Size, +6 Natural armor. Ok.
- +14 Str, -2 Dex, +10 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Cha. That's a lot of stats, much more than most evolved versions get.
I think these bonuses, with the fact that at higher level more and more enemies will get immune or resistant to your gaze, are worth 3 RHD, for a total of 11 RHD for the THHH, or TH3 for short. Also, it has aberration HD. That's not good HD. I'd say DLA -6 for a total ECL equal to its CR.

The umber hulks are a good design, in that they are designed to look dumb as bricks, but still have intelligence and cunning equal to humans. In their lore, they're described as always underestimated by adventurers as stupid beasts, and that translates really well into real life. Every time umber hulks are mentioned, there is always one person to mention that they didn't expect it to have such intelligence. I guess WotC knows pretty well how to design dumb-looking monsters. After all, they had a lot of practice (looks at the rest of this thread)...
Next time, we will look at a monster that has many more RHD than it looks like it should have, the Will o' Wisp!

[Morphic tide]

With regard to the Truly Horrid, it gets +7 to attack and damage rolls via Strength in exchange for -4 over full BAB from the RHD. +5 HP/HD over the regular, which is already +4 HP/HD to end up ahead of a Raging Barbarian's health. Huge size and +14 Natural Armor? Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Truly Horrid Umber Hulk is able to be turned into a viable Martial with just one level to get Spirit Lion Totem. Of course, you'll have no versatility worth mentioning, but you'll be pretty much on-par for damage numbers.

I've honestly no idea how much is "worth" taking away from RHD or ECL here, because you end up enormously in excess of the basic statistics of a "standard" Martial from all that Strength, Constitution, and Natural Armor, and 7 feats is enough to allow almost any Martial package, which you at least can have the stats for with your lack of any malus. 'Tis confusing.

[Beni-Kujaku]

With regard to the Truly Horrid, it gets +7 to attack and damage rolls via Strength in exchange for -4 over full BAB from the RHD. +5 HP/HD over the regular, which is already +4 HP/HD to end up ahead of a Raging Barbarian's health. Huge size and +14 Natural Armor? Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Truly Horrid Umber Hulk is able to be turned into a viable Martial with just one level to get Spirit Lion Totem. Of course, you'll have no versatility worth mentioning, but you'll be pretty much on-par for damage numbers.

I've honestly no idea how much is "worth" taking away from RHD or ECL here, because you end up enormously in excess of the basic statistics of a "standard" Martial from all that Strength, Constitution, and Natural Armor, and 7 feats is enough to allow almost any Martial package, which you at least can have the stats for with your lack of any malus. 'Tis confusing.

When rating evolved monsters‚ and generally monsters with way too many RHD‚ I generally base my rating on CR advancement as a first estimate (since CR is surprisingly accurate for a lot of monsters save for really high level ones). 12 more Aberration RHD (13 in fact‚ here) and one size increase from Large to Huge are worth‚ with everything that entails‚ 4 CR‚ for a result between 11 and 12. Then what are these stats increases worth? On their own‚ I'd say they would be around 4 to 5 levels. But when they eat your 12th level and above (which are almost always PrC levels or other combo abilities) ‚ I think they are not worth more than 3 ECL. Hence a final estimation of ECL 14

[Remuko]

12 more Aberration RHD (13 in fact‚ here) and siee increase are worth

you did the french thing again lol

[Beni-Kujaku]

you did the french thing again lol

Ah no! Do not underestimate me! I wouldn't do the same mistake twice! (Except the times when I do make the same mistake twice‚ please disregard those) No‚ this has nothing to do with french‚ it's just a typo when I wanted to type "size"

[H_H_F_F]

Ah no! Do not underestimate me! I wouldn't do the same mistake twice! (Except the times when I do make the same mistake twice‚ please disregard those) No‚ this has nothing to do with french‚ it's just a typo when I wanted to type "size"

I feel lucky because that couldn't happen to me. Accidently typing חסנ or זרז in the middle of an English sentence would require me to be very seriously preoccupied, I think.

[Remuko]

Ah no! Do not underestimate me! I wouldn't do the same mistake twice! (Except the times when I do make the same mistake twice‚ please disregard those) No‚ this has nothing to do with french‚ it's just a typo when I wanted to type "size"

ah fair enough lol

[GreatWyrmGold]

Some sources say that their race is impossibly old, existing since the very dawn of the universe, before the primordials were even replaced by the gods. That makes very little sense, considering they have characteristics of "modern" animals, like compound eyes, but then again, even primordials look like humans in this world so that might not be that weird.

I wonder if anyone's made a list of all the monsters said to have existed ~before even the gods set foot on this world.~ I can't help but imagine that time was a lot more crowded than people make it sound.

Truly Horrid, 20 RHD: I surprisingly really like this naming. This really sounds like something that primitive people would call a bigger, scarier version of an ancient monster. "There was an Umber Hulk gang, but then, there was another one, but bigger, like 15 ft high, you know, a truly horrid one!"

Not thrilled with the "primitive" framing. A, it gives the impression that people with less technology are dumber, too dumb to even come up with a decent name for a monster. B, it gives the impression that advanced modern people wouldn't give equally superlative yet vague names.

But yeah, it's nice when WotC doesn't just slap a "greater" on the high-level version and call it a day.

you did the french thing again lol

Ah no! Do not underestimate me! I wouldn't do the same mistake twice! (Except the times when I do make the same mistake twice‚ please disregard those) No‚ this has nothing to do with french‚ it's just a typo when I wanted to type "size"

I'd poke fun at Remuko, but if Beni had said "nah, siee is totally French" I'd have believed him. (It looks kinda French, and he'd presumably know better than me...)

[Remuko]

I'd poke fun at Remuko, but if Beni had said "nah, siee is totally French" I'd have believed him. (It looks kinda French, and he'd presumably know better than me...)

it had happened before. sie (iirc?) was the french shorthand for wisdom like WIS is in english. which is what I thought he had done (again).

[Beni-Kujaku]

Will-o'-Wisps

What is, in your opinion, the most perplexing, inexplicable monster of D&D? Maybe some sort of animal hybrid demon, like the Phisarazu, who spits in the face of both the square-cube law and every kind of biological consideration, or the modrons (yes, these are sentient geometric shapes. No, I won't elaborate further.), or simply any monster of the MMII, like the famous mind-controlling underwears, the Raggamoffyn. Some time ago, I would have said the same thing, but currently, my money is on the Will-o'-wisps, and that is for reasons that are not immediately obvious, both in the game's lore and the real life evolution of the game.

Spoiler: The convoluted story of the most confusing D&D monster, and how WotC made it worse by trying to fix it

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Why does the Will-o'-Wisp have immunity to magic, and especially why are these two spells the ones to bypass it? Nothing in either the stat sheet or the lore of the WoW suggests the reason. And that's because there is no reason except that the WoW is plagued by its heritage from previous editions.

Spoiler: The original will-o'-wisp, and special relativity

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You see, in 1st and 2nd editions, the WoW was very different from what it has become. It was not a standalone monster, but the adult form of another monster, some small humanoid shapeshifter Fey called a boggart. The boggart could shapeshift into any humanoid of its size, but also in an incorporeal ball of light with no physical substance: the will-o'-wisp (and here is the second big difference between 1st and 3rd edition will-o'-wisps, in 1st edition, WoW were completely incorporeal, with no real body, only some concentrated, sentient light). As they matured, they spent more and more time in will-o'-wisp form until they couldn't go back to being a boggart anymore. Yes, you heard that right, a corporeal being that could shapeshift into an incorporeal one. That is already quite strange, but what is most unique is that Gary Gygax actually considered real-world physics in this transformation. Indeed, E=mc², and destroying mass liberates incredible amounts of energy, while creating mass consumes the same amount. When the boggart changed into a will-o'-wisp, the air in the vicinity heated up so much that anyone there took 1d6 damage. But this energy is far from what would be liberated by the body of a small humanoid completely vanishing (as a reminder, the strongest man-made explosion ever, the Tsar Bomba, who could obliterate any metropolis and kill everybody in a 40 miles radius represented no more than 3 kg of consumed matter). The vast majority of it was channeled through the will-o'-wisp into the Negative Energy Plane, then retrieved when the will-o'-wisp took a physical form again.

Spoiler: The will-o'-wisp's weaknesses, and quantum physics

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It's this connection with the Negative Energy Plane that gave the will-o'-wisp magic immunity. Any magic that could affect it was just channeled to the Negative Plane and lost. The exceptions were Magic Missile and Maze. The explanation was that magic missile somehow disrupted the lattice of information of the will-o'-wisp itself (Magic Missile never misses, even if the target doesn't really exist), and hence could damage it, while Maze blocks the pipeline to the Negative Plane but my headcanon is that a monster with a name starting with two W's can't handle so many M's in a spell's name.

But another thing that could disrupt this link was simply physical weapon attacks. You see, will-o'-wisps in 1e were just a ball of information with no physical form, even the light was just some energy leaking through its link with the Negative Energy Plane, which is why it's invisible when turning the light off, there really is nothing to see (also why it couldn't sustain its invisibility permanently at the time). However, hitting it with physical matter could "possibly" disrupt it. The event is described as completely random and unlikely even if you strike the light of the will-o'-wisp, as if the light was only the probability of presence of the "damageable" part of the will-o'-wisp. That really reminds me of wavefunctions in quantum physics and how interfering lasers can create physical matter for an instant in a completely random manner. This randomness translates into the ludicrous AC bonus that later became the Deflection bonus we see in 3e.

Spoiler: When WotC gives up on trying to understand their own monster

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So, at this point, the will-o'-wisp was two intricately linked monsters with weaknesses that only made a little sense when factoring multi-Plane theory and real-life advanced physics. On top of it, one of the two was an incorporeal one that could be still hurt by physical nonmagical weapons and could turn invisible and be seen by See Invisibility, but with no physical form to really see. That was way too much for the clear, well-defined edition they wanted for 3e.

But the thing is, they seemingly liked the will-o'-wisp. I don't know how that happened, if one of the devs already had a campaign ready with some will-o'-wisps as a major enemy, or if they considered that it was one of the most iconic monsters in the game, but they decided not to cut it from 3e, and even to keep its stat sheet almost exactly identical to what it was. However, to keep it from being as complicated as before, they just removed every instance and reference of the boggart, of the Negative Energy Plane and of that weird randomness that prevented it to be hurt most of the time, and changed every last bit of its lore to create something completely different, but with the same final result.

Spoiler: How WotC wants the same monster, but different, but still same

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It can be hit by physical weapons? Then make it not incorporeal at all, and call it a day.
It can channel energy into lightning attacks? Let's say that it's because of a chemical reaction when it eats swamp gases.
It evolved out of a sadistic fey that hates humans? Ah no, no more fey! Nothing from before, except the stats. Let's make it instead an aberration which feeds on the chemicals produced by humanoids when they experience fear and pain. I don't care if that doesn't make sense! Make it not magical at all, I don't want anything complicated on this monster anymore!
It shines and can extinguish its glow to be invisible? Now it's because it exhales flamable gases that ignite when in contact with oxygen, and it can just hold its breath. Plus it's naturally transparent because... It's gas itself! Give it the Air subtype!
It has incredible AC? I said now it has the Air subtype, make it deflection bonus or something due to it exhaling gas that repel weapons.
How can an air aberration be so intelligent, even more than an humanoid? Make it some sorte of cluster of smaller sentient gas bubbles that can think together as a hive mind (I'm absolutely not kidding, that's what the will-o'-wisp is in 3.X)

And finally, it has immunity to all magic except Maze and Magic Missile! ..... There's no mundane way to explain that, is there? Just put a "nobody really knows why" and everything will be fine.


And that's how WotC changed everything, but kept all the abilities, and made the monster even more incomprehensible by having the magic immunity, the almost absent strength and the deflection bonus to AC not be explained at all. Truly the best way they could have went.

Spoiler: What about after 3rd edition

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A few years later, 4th edition came up, and once again, the devs were self-conscious that the will-o'-wisp made no sense, maybe even less so than in 2nd edition. So they decided to come back. It's a Fey again, with a lot of clearly magical light abilities. I can only assume this is the same will-o'-wisp as it 1st edition, but since this is 4th edition, who cares about iconic abilities, or just interesting ones? Immunity to magic just doesn't exist, and they don't have particularly good AC either, so no need to explain anything, and you can have fun just hitting the thing with a stick... *sigh* 4e never fails to disappoint.

5e wasn't much better. This edition brought back a lot of interesting abilities, and gave much more thought to the lore. But once again, doing that for the Fey will-o'-wisp would be way too complicated. So they changed it again. Not a Fey, not an Aberration, now it's an Undead! The spirit of criminals killed in a swamp. At least they didn't want to keep the same stats from before. That makes the 5e will-o'-wisp just a completely different creature from before. And honestly, that's probably the best course of action on their part.

So, in its existence, the lore of the will-o'-wisp changed so utterly that even its creature type was different, not once, but three times! And the 3rd edition one was probably the worst iteration of that, with some endeavor to keep nonsensical abilities while not explaining the majority of them within the new lore. That's why I consider the WoW the most confusing monster in all of D&D, it's the combination of every single worst design decisions WotC could have made, from the very beginning of D&D to the modern era.

That aside, with the current iteration of its stats, what is the best course of action if you want to play one of those? You have no manipulators, and absolutely no way to get some except with grafts (and if you do get graft, you have no reason to keep your invisibility, since even when your glow is off, your zombie arm will still be visible). However, you have disgustingly high Dex and above average Wis and Int. That screams Unarmed Swordsage with all its lungs, with a level in monk to be able to Unarmed Strike with any part of your body. Then, just improve Swordsage, or go into a Sneak Attack class. You should be able to do decent damage with maneuvers, even though you have -10 Str (and if you take Shadow Blade, this will be strong!). The real problem here is the absence of items. At high levels, this will be crippling.

- 9 Aberration RHD: Why so many? Just, why? This is a monster that is already hard to hit, no need to make the fight last forever when it's a monster, and no need to make the life of poor innocent souls that want to play it a nightmare.
- -10 Str, +18 Dex, +0 Con, +4 Int, +6 Wis, +2 Cha. These are extremely good stats. You dump Str that you wouldn't really use anyway, and you get a ludicrous Dex with good mental stats all around including Intelligence. What's not to love here?
- +9 Deflection bonus to AC, natural Invisibility, immunity to magic, fast (Perfect) flying. You have quantum resistance to everything. This is almost ridiculous at this point. What party is gonna hit consistently an AC 29 at lv 6? As a player, this makes you nigh indestructible. This is much worse than for a monster, though. Opponents will just attack your friends, and since you can't manipulate wands, you can't use your invincibility to heal everyone. You'll just have to beat the hell out of your enemy and hope that they notice you. (and with Shadow Blade and a bit of sneak attack, you're definitely able to do just that)
(Note that immunity to magic probably also means immunity to healing and to buffing. Every silver lining has a cloud. Still a plus, but not that overpowered)
- Awful body shape, with maybe one or two item slots, but not more. How many would you be able to carry anyway with Small size and -10 Str?
- Darkvision 60ft, touch attack natural weapon. Probably irrelevant, except if you can add it in an unarmed full attack, and even then, probably not incredible.


So, you have a whole lot of defensive abilities, and pretty good offensive ones with that. Your skill list is acceptable and you have a lot of skill points. So many goodies, but so much bad too. I believe it would be pretty interesting and fun to play with 7 or 6 RHD. Less and it would crush everything with just one level of Swordsage and Shadow Blade. More, and it doesn't have time to make a decent build before it is brought down by it's absence of item slot. 2 more RHD are not incredible, of course, but it will benefit from them. Something like DLA-2 seems acceptable to me.



If you wanna play as a will-o'-wisp, note that you are contractually obligated to be an absolute jackass the whole campaign, with every single NPC. Will-o'-wisps have always been CE, but I feel like they pushed it to eleven in 3rd edition. If you want, just read Dragon Magazine 328, and you can see how much these little balls of light can be mother f***ing bastards. Next time, we'll have the alternate evolution of the wolf if you give it an Ice Stone instead of leveling it up into Dire Wolf: the Winter Wolf!

[Beni-Kujaku]

I wonder if anyone's made a list of all the monsters said to have existed ~before even the gods set foot on this world.~ I can't help but imagine that time was a lot more crowded than people make it sound.

Yugoloth, Slaads, Umber Hulks, Sarrukhs, Spellseavers‚ Illithids, and possibly dragons and aboleths (they worship Elder Evils, is that enough to believe they were there when the EE were in charge ?), on the top of my head. Yeah, that starts to be a lot, but those are spread throughout the infinite planes.

About the TH Umber Hulk, my point was not "people with less technology", and more "people who are still in the process of evolving from apes and don't have a fully formed language yet". But yeah, there's a good chance modern people might not have much more imagination.

it had happened before. sie (iirc?) was the french shorthand for wisdom like WIS is in english. which is what I thought he had done (again).

It was "sag", but close enough ^^

[Remuko]

It was "sag", but close enough ^^

yeah that one lol

[Beni-Kujaku]

Winter Wolves and Worgs

Why would Winter Wolves and Worgs wind up in this woeful wasteland? Would they be worth way more than they do if they were written with a wee bit more well-placed work?

Seriously, how many wolf variants do you really need in a game? With the Brachyurus, that makes six wolf-like canines (regular, dire, winter, worg, legendary, brachyurus) with little difference except their strength. At least these ones are Magical Beasts, with full BAB to boast and acceptable intelligence.


Winter Wolf, 8 RHD: Compared to the Dire Wolf, we have -6 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Int, +2 Natural Armor, the Magical Beast type and everything that comes along, and the Frost subtype. It also has a kind of negligible damage bonus on its bite (only the bite, so not for mouthpick), and an interesting breath weapon that is honestly kinda powerful, and is eligible for Metabreath (you'll still need the Dragonblood subtype for Entangling Exhalation). I believe it's worth at least 1 ECL more than the Dire Wolf. I suggest 5 RHD and DLA-1 for the Winter Wolf.

Worg, 4 RHD: Compared to Dire Wolf, you have +1 BAB, -8 Str, -2 Con, +4 Int (for a salvageable but still problematic -4 total), +2 Wis, -1 Natural Armor and especially one size smaller. Definitely worse. But is it bad enough to only be worth 2 RHD?... Maybe, but I will choose a conservative 3 RHD for the Worg, and DLA-0. I'm not comfortable giving lower ECL than its BAB to a monster with less than 5 RHD. It would allow early entry in prestige classes, which its flaws doesn't balance.

Not much to say here, they are almost identical to a previous monster and have no lore to speak of. See you next time for the Dread Wraith.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Dread Wraith

The wraith is another translation issue, simply due to the sheer number of words meaning "ghost" or "spectre" in english. After the first 4 incorporeal undead creatures, other languages just didn't have any word left. And the wraith gave us some of the best translation ideas in my opinion, due to how badass they sound. In french, it's "Âme-en-Peine", which means "Sorrowful Soul", while in german, it's "Todesalb", or "dead/deathly Alb", the Alb being some sort of sleep paralysis demon strangling people in their sleep. Maybe not that accurate, but definitely very cool.

The wraith's characteristics have gone through various changes through the ages. They started as corporeal creatures, and were in fact copies of the Ringwraiths from Lord of the Ring (even being called Nazguls in some early design notes from Gary Gygax). They became incorporeal starting in 2nd edition, and their corporeal form was very possibly retconned into the sword wraith, who really doesn't have much in common with the incorporeal wraith except the name.


In terms of stats, the Dread Wraith is the strongest in the long list of MM incorporeal undead creatures, with 16 Undead RHD. However, it doesn't really back it up well with abilities.

The dread wraith only has its Constitution Drain, and lifesense 60 ft. The Con drain is pretty bad, all things considered. 1d8 is interesting, but it is only once per round, and the target has a Fortitude save on top of it. You should down some spellcasters, but you'll be as powerless as in sunlight against any big brute. Or anything that doesn't have constitution. Lifesense is always very good, but it doesn't do much by itself. And apart from that, there is only stats. Not even Turn Resistance. Lots of stats, don't get me wrong, but a CR 11 creature with not even an SLA is pretty one-dimensional. No, unnatural aura is not an ability worth mentioning. Or just to say that it makes adventuring with a druid harder.

- Incorporeal undead, no strength, no constitution. These are standard issues, you'll have problems finding equipment and be pretty squishy, but incorporeality is so much of a boon that it balances it nicely.
- Large size. Probably more of a detriment than an advantage, decreasing your AC and your to-hit for a negligible increase in physical damage. At least you have reach.
- Con drain, life sense, daylight powerlessness.
- +18 Dex, +6 Int, +8 Wis, +14 Cha. Even at this level, this is impressive on an undead. Your two stats that add to your AC are extremely high. And Charisma adds to your drain DC. Compared to the regular Wraith, that's +12 Dex, +2 Int, +4 Wis, +10 Cha.

So, what are +28 in stats and going from 1d6 to 1d8 con drain worth when you compare this to the regular version?
Probably 4 RHD more? Your stats are much better than a spectre and everything else is slightly worse. I believe the dread wraith should be 1 ECL higher than the spectre is, for a total of 9 RHD. And as always with undead, gaining 7 RHD doesn't give it a lot except feats. I suggest DLA-4 for a total of ECL 12.


What would you do with a dread wraith? It has too many RHD for spellcasting, even half-casters, and I don't think it would mesh well with rogues, since you have low BAB and it's hard to get a lot of attacks. Maybe a crusader?
Next time, we'll have a monster that I've always put between the gibbering mouther and the Otyugh in the "my design is that I have lots of limbs, eyes and teeth, and that's all" pile, the Xorn!

[Beni-Kujaku]

Xorns (at least average)

This gets me thinking: how many HD should a Xorn have to be LA+0? Somewhere between minor and average must be a butter zone of power for these guys. Perhaps that +1 to LA could be taken as a hit die?

It does make them slightly stronger (more HP, more BAB, better saves...) +2 HD might be required.
The proper LA/RHD ratio is about as easy to intuit as LA is in the first place.

And now people are doing my job for me! Thank you! I dream of a day when I would just write the name of a monster and people would find the appropriate ECL for me. (I know this is about the Minor Xorn, but still)

So, today, we have the Xorn! The Outsider-typed, Elemental-fluffed, Aberration-shaped counterpart to other denizens of the elemental planes in the Monster Manual, like the Tojanida, the Arrowhawk, and the Salamander.

And man, is that a sad monster. Tojanidas eat water, Arrowhawks eat meat, Salamanders are omnivores, but Xorns eat precious metals and gems. While these are pretty common in the Plane of Earth, the Xorns who find themselves on the Prime Material Plane quickly end up starving, since the treasures they eat are often well-guarded and valued. That makes most Xorns beggars of sort, asking adventurers (the most likely kind of person to carry a lot of precious stones) for sustenance, only attacking if they are hungry to the point of danger. If you want to play a Xorn, I highly advise you to get a ring of sustenance, and if you can't, well, you'll have to discuss with your DM how many gp per day a Xorn eats.

Average, 7 RHD: All Xorns have very good defensive abilities, and the average follows this rule. +14 (!) natural armor, can't be flanked, DR 5/bludgeoning (much better than 5/magic), two elemental immunities and one resistance. The offense is also pretty nice. 3 arms for Multiweapon Fighting, one big Bite attack, Cleave as a bonus feat (do you imagine this thing cleaving anybody?), and full BAB as an Outsider. The only thing really pulling it back is its speed (20ft is slowish), and its stats. +6 Str, +4 Con, and that's all. That's really low for 7 RHD, even if it wasn't an Outsider. The thing still borders on playable even with these stats, and I think it deserves 6 RHD and DLA-0. That's one RHD more than what GWG estimated the Minor Xorn, and I think it's acceptable for +2 Str and natural armor, one size increase and a bonus feat (it would probably even be pretty good).

Elder, 15 RHD: Behold! An advanced Average Xorn!! Yep, that's all. One size larger, and the size modifiers (+8 Str, +4 Con, +2 natural armor). 9 RHD, and DLA-3.



Those were pretty easy to rate, if not to look at. Next time, we'll rate the animal (?) companion of Oona, the Yrthak!

[GreatWyrmGold]

That is already quite strange, but what is most unique is that Gary Gygax actually considered real-world physics in this transformation. Indeed, E=mc², and destroying mass liberates incredible amounts of energy, while creating mass consumes the same amount. When the boggart changed into a will-o'-wisp, the air in the vicinity heated up so much that anyone there took 1d6 damage. But this energy is far from what would be liberated by the body of a small humanoid completely vanishing (as a reminder, the strongest man-made explosion ever, the Tsar Bomba, who could obliterate any metropolis and kill everybody in a 40 miles radius represented no more than 3 kg of consumed matter). The vast majority of it was channeled through the will-o'-wisp into the Negative Energy Plane, then retrieved when the will-o'-wisp took a physical form again.

Here's a thought for worldbuilders out there: If you try to explain your magic with physics, but then need more magic to patch up the holes in your physics, just leave the physics out of the equation.

With the Brachyurus, that makes six wolf-like canines (regular, dire, winter, worg, legendary, brachyurus) with little difference except their strength. At least these ones are Magical Beasts, with full BAB to boast and acceptable intelligence.

I'd say the intelligence of worgs, the ice breath of winter wolves, and the size of dire wolves gives them at least some justification for existing. Legendary wolves are a bit more questionable, brachyuruses are just magical epic dire wolves with the specific name of an obscure American canine, and normal wolves shouldn't need to justify their existence.
I don't think having lots of wolf-like canines is a bad thing; they[re common in folklore, mythology, and fantasy. But each lupine monster should have a distinct identity that it leans into. Winter wolves are the northern ice wolves, pale as snow and packing frostbite in their normal bite. They're alright. Dire wolves are bigger, stronger, more savage wolves, and they're successful at that. Worgs are supposed to be big bad wolves, by which I mean intelligent and malevolent, and...they're kind of that? (I don't know what brachyurus or legendary wolves are supposed to be, though.)

The wraith is another translation issue, simply due to the sheer number of words meaning "ghost" or "spectre" in english.

The English language isn't the most elegant, or the most straightforward, but no other tongue in the world can rival the vocabulary it's plundered from around the globe!

[Beni-Kujaku]

Here's a thought for worldbuilders out there: If you try to explain your magic with physics, but then need more magic to patch up the holes in your physics, just leave the physics out of the equation.

Surprisingly‚ that's something I see more in the domain of science fiction‚ where you can basically say "this technology works like magic and you can't tell me otherwise". Isaac Asimov has a lot of these. For example‚ the faster-than-light travel is discovered by a robot that works kind of realistically‚ with the data it's given‚ but in the end‚ FTL has the souls of the passengers travel through actual hell because their information can't travel faster than light‚ contrary to the matter of the bodies. Same thing with the Force. It's just a biological process‚ with the Midichlorians‚ but then that just means it's the Midichlorians who have telepathic and telekinetic powers.

When it's well-written‚ I kind of like this sort of lampshading. It's "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" in its purest form‚ after all. And the corollary "any sufficiently studied magic becomes a science" is my favorite trope in fantasy‚ when the characters do not stop at just "this is magic‚ let's use it as is" and go "why is this magic and how could we invent something to exploit it better".

I don't think having lots of wolf-like canines is a bad thing; they[re common in folklore, mythology, and fantasy. But each lupine monster should have a distinct identity that it leans into.

I would agree‚ if it wasn't such a recurring theme in 3.5. There are 6 wolves ‚ at least 5 wraiths‚ dozens of dragons with little variation besides their color (their lore varies‚ but the statblock is basically the same) ‚ golems in any shape‚ material or color‚ five slimes in just the MM and several others elsewhere... The wolves are not the worst‚ as you pointed out‚ and it is nice to have so many options‚ but I feel like they could have used some of this creativity to give more personality to the first few versions instead of rehashing each of their ideas over and over again. For example just a few more options on evolved monsters‚ or really different ways of playing for chromatic and metallic dragons... But yeah‚ I'm ranting about a game more than a decade old‚ what is done is done.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Yrthak

And we're back, boys! After two weeks of holidays, the negative-LA thread can continue, and the first monster is... Drumrolls... What the heck is this?

The Yrthak, like a pterosaur, but blind, and screaming to echolocate itself. It screams to see you, it yells at you to attack you, and it shouts to break rocks. To describe its viability as an encounter, I'll just say that it has +5 Will, and that Silence is a level 2 spell. To describe its viability as a character, I'll just point out that it has only one mouth, which it uses to cry its lungs out, which means it can't speak, not having the vocal chords for that, and it is also probably blind whenever it eats. Truly a marvel of evolution.

- 12 Magical Beast RHD. Full BAB never hurts, but it goes without saying that we're going to reduce that number.
- Huge size, +10 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis, +0 Cha. And +8 natural armor. Pretty sad array here, especially for a Huge creature with so many RHD. Compare to something like a Large Earth Elemental, 4 RHD less and a size category smaller and still better stats.
- Average 60 ft flying. That's average indeed, but always nice to have.
- Sonic Ray: useable once every other round, 6d6 damage in a ray, or a small AoE of 2d6 damage. That's around the power level of a blasting 2nd level spell. Really not good. You're Huge, rely on your natural attacks instead.
- Speaking of, claw-claw-bite. Pretty nice. Nothing stellar here, but Flyby and a level of barbarian should get you respectable DPR.
- And Blindsight 120ft. That. That is extremely good. And probably the only reason you'd play an Yrthak in the first place. Blindsight can bypass so many things in such a large range of levels, it's just a shame it's put on such a chassis.

So, how do we rate that? That's pretty close to the hieracosphinx, bit better Con, blindsight and sonic lance against pounce and rake, and the sphinx can talk. I'm gonna say they're even. 7 RHD for the Yrthak, and DLA -2.


The Yrthak passed like a shooting star. Appeared in 3e, disappeared in 4e. That's pretty sad. In fact, almost everything in this monster is tragic. Tragic statblock, with blindsight on an unuseable chassis, tragic real-life story, being cut after one appearance, and tragic lore, the first Yrthak being a bard that has been tricked by a demon into accepting a "horn", then enslaved by sonic-immune monsters.
Next time will be the last non-animal creatures of the monster manuals, the Yuan-ti! And after that, there will be a surprise...

[Beni-Kujaku]

Yuan-ti (all of them)

Rule 34 of the Evil Overlord List: "I will not turn into a snake. It never helps."
And in d&d, except if you're into crafting your own poison, or if you like to give people ophiophobia, that is true as well.

Spoiler: Daddy, where do yuan-tis come from?

Show

So, Yuan-tis! 35,000 years ago, the Sarrukhs said, “Let us make yuan-ti in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." And they tried, using the most available resource at the time: primitive humans, combined with the genes of snakes. Twice, they failed. The first created the pureblood, still so close to a human that sarrukhs didn't see their blood in them. The second bred the halfblood. Half of a sarrukh, but not the right bottom part. On the third try, however, they finally created their masterpiece: the abomination, looking like a sarrukh in all regards, and living up to 6000 years. Some godly creature.
Then all sarrukhs disappeared, and we only got snake people with weird breeding methods. Because, yeah, they can't breed normally, since they are an artificial race. So, how did they subsist after sarrukhs disappeared? Well, that's very simple. When a yuan-ti and a yuan-ti love their society very much, they go and kidnap humans. They use some of their poison modified with a ritual (which may or may not use some power from the 111th layer of the Abyss) to change them into Histachii (tainted ones and broodguards from Serpent Kingdoms). And now, we have one of the most random results from breeding I've seen.

Histachii+Histachii->Pureblood
Histachii+Pureblood->Halfblood
Histachii+Halfblood->Halfblood
Histachii+Abomination->Halfblood
Any combination of Pure-blood, Halfblood and abomination-> Abomination.

So we have almost-human people who can, just by interbreeding, become more and more snakelike. I say, sarrukhs should have sticked to pun-pun.

The Yuan-tis are some ranger-type monsters with full BAB on their racial hit dice, some SLA and PLA, most of which have something to do with crowd control, or stealth, and some juicy SR 9+HD (except for the pureblood, who has 10+HD. The most humanlike one should obviously have the most marked nonhuman abilities, of course.). They can go ranger indeed. Or almost any martial class in fact. They will excel nowhere but will benefit from their abilities whatever their path. Their ability to get easy poison with decent DC would lend itself for a class that likes to attack several times, like ranger, rogue or scout. All in all, all of them are pretty close to +0, they are just underwhelming, with unfocused abilities that makes it difficult to find a perfect class for any of them.

Pureblood, 4 RHD: this is mostly worth an LA+0 race by stats alone, with only +2 in Dex, Int and Cha (good stats to have a bonus in, especially with so many SLA). Then we have the very nice Spell Resistance, and a lot of very nice 1st level SLA 1/day. This will not scale well, but Darkness, Charm Monster, and Entangle 1/day is incredible at low-level. Plus, you can change into a viper (nice for sneaking, and to get some cheap poison) and you get two bonus feats. Alertness and Blind-fight are trash, but they can be prerequisites, and feats are feats. All in all, I feel like I would gladly play that with 3 RHD, and they aren't even that bad at DLA-0.

Halfblood, 7 RHD: This was one of the monsters that was heavily reworked from 3.0 to 3.5. It used to exist in several versions, with different snake parts of its body which gave it various abilities. For example, the snake-headed one had a bite attack but no SLA. 3.5 changed it by giving it all of the best abilities from every form, because there really was little reason to make it so complicated. In 3.5 you only have 3 variants with very minor bonuses, and the one you're almost always choosing is Snake Tail, which gives you a swim speed and a weak constrict. You're not gonna constrict a lot anyway, since you're Medium with only +4 Str. Compared to the Pureblood, you get lots of stats: +4 Str, +2 Con, +4 Int, +8 Wis, +2 Cha, which makes for some very respectable mental stats; your SLA become stronger (either they go from 1/day to 3/day, or they're replaced by the stronger version, like Suggestion instead of Charm Person), plus a +10 to Hide checks; +3 Natural Armor; and a bite with some viper venom on it. I'm not sure the halfblood will be very strong with 6 RHD, but with 5 it would be probably overwhelming. If it wasn't for prerequisites, I would probably say DLA-1, but having BAB higher than ECL can still break things at this level, like getting Divine Crusader one level early and get 9th at 15th level. So DLA-0.

Abomination, 9 RHD: this one had almost the same thing as Halfblood, where it could have snake or human head, but it was removed altogether instead of changing to variants. Anyway, more of the same, just a bit stronger. Compared to the Halfblood, they have a size increase to Large, a tiny bit more stats (+4 Str and Con, +2 in all mentals, which makes for pretty underwhelming stats all in all), +6 Natural armor (now we're talking), Improved Grab (you're not a great grappler anyway, but that's nice to have in some situations, especially since it works on large creatures), and another improvement to SLA and PLA, notably Baleful Polymorph and at-will Aversion, which makes people afraid of snakes. I would say that all in all, it's worse another 2 RHD more than the Halfblood, for a total of 8 RHD. And this time, DLA-1 seems in order.


And with these, we reach two milestones! First, these were the last stand-alone monsters in the Monster Manual. After that, there are only templates and animals left. And second, this is the 139th post in this thread, which makes it the longest-running negative-LA thread by number of posts (Martixy's thread was abandoned after 138 posts)! To celebrate that, we will start looking at dragons starting next week! I believe the best way to address this is to have a post for each age category instead of one post for each color of dragon. So, next time, we will look at all the wyrmlings in the Monster Manual! Let's rate these newborns!

[H_H_F_F]

Congratulations, Beni-Kujaku! Here's to many more.

[Beni-Kujaku]

It's been far too long since last time, but I'm back! And today, we're talking about TRUE DRAGONS!

Introduction to True Dragon negative LA

Let's face it, dragons are awesome. True dragons are the creatures in D&D with the most support, having an astounding number of feats, spells and items that are either dedicated to them or that work differently when they're the ones that cast it or that are affected by it. Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, Races of the Dragon, Dragons of Faerun... They're the eponymous creatures of the game, and it shows. On top of it, they naturally get at least a limited access to everything any character would like. Innate spellcasting using both the sorcerer and cleric spell lists, spell resistance, natural weapons, full d12 hit dice, BAB and all three good saves, natural armor, and alternate movement forms, notably flying. And finally, Dragons of Eberron introduced the Sovereign Archetypes. For the cost of your possible cleric casting, you gain very nice advantages, notably 2 more levels of sorcerer (Loredrake), or a fighter feat every 4 HD (Wyrm of War, including non-racial HD).

All of that on top of the incredible advantages from Sovereign Archetypes means that, if it wasn't for LA, you could probably just play any dragon in the MM up to level 20 and not lack too much behind an unoptimized martial, and would definitely be better than a straight fighter. What that means is that, more than for any other creature, the class to which the dragons are compared is important. If we compare them to full casters (like sorcerers, for example), they would almost all need a number of RHD close to their sorcerer level to be viable, and would be overpowered in any other role. If we compare them to fighters, or even most mundanes, like a barbarian, they could probably just be played as is without too much RHDR. I chose to compare them to something like a Warblade or a Swordsage when they have no spellcasting (so, when they're young enough, or for Xorvintaal dragons), that is, able to natively pull some tricks other than just "I hit it, then I hit it again", notably some mobility, but still definitely melee-based. In these case, always assume a Wyrm of War sovereign archetype. When they do have at least one level of sorcerer casting, they should be compared to a sorcerer-fighter-Abjurant Champion gish, because that's about what a dragon is gonna do. One level of sorcerer to allow Abjurant Champion to improve something, maybe one level of barbarian because Flyby pounce is good, then five levels of Abjurant Champion, and just continue as if you were a normal gish.



So, with this out of the way, we can ask ourselves how we can play a...

True Dragon (Wyrmling)

Wyrmlings are dragons who are less than 5 years old. Compared to their lifespan, that'd be the equivalent of a 6 months old human. And even then, they can speak, fly faster than Usain Bolt can run, breathe fire (or whatever element they like) and generally kill any normal adult human in less than 6 seconds. If you find yourself against one of these, just remember it's still a baby. Distract it with something shiny, and you should be off the hook.

All wyrmlings are quite similar. Extremely good flying speed with lowish maneuverability, some nice but not outstanding ability scores and natural armor, an elemental immunity and a weak breath weapon that could be very good if it's damage scaled off of HD. And natural weapons for days. At least 3 natural attacks, and 5 for Gold and Red.
White, Brass and Silver wyrmlings all got a LA+1 rating in the original thread. White and Brass because they're the lowest-RHD'd dragons in the manual, and Silver because it is the strongest dragon for its age category in a lot of ways, and it isn't because of its number of RHD. It's because it has Alternate form, plus the best breath weapon of all: a paralysing gas that lasts longer than it takes for the dragon to be able to breath again.

Black Wyrmling, 4 RHD: Tiny size, +2 Con, -2 Int and Cha. I'm really not sure why this got LA-0 when the white wyrmling got LA+1, since the black wyrmling is pretty clearly superior to the white one, if they are both playable at ECL 4. Black is a slower flyer and can't burrow (but it will still outspeed almost any earthbound creature), but it has +1 natural armor, a smaller malus on mental stats, better damage on its breath attack, and especially one more dragon RHD, with BAB and everything. Of course, that definitely isn't enough for LA+1, but I feel it deserves at least 4 RHD and DLA-0.

Copper Wyrmling, 5 RHD: Still tiny, but now with a slow breath weapon, much better ability scores (but still way below what is expected at this level) with +2 con and to all mentals, a permanent spider climb and +4 natural armor. That's a similar situation with the brass as the Black was in with the white. Copper is better than brass if both are playable at ECL 5, even though copper's breath weapon is not as good as brass's. 5 RHD, DLA-0

Green Wyrmling, 5 RHD: This one is born small instead of tiny, which gives it at least some reach, but otherwise is not much of an improvement over black. That's on the high end of 4 RHD, or the weak end of 5. As always, I prefer to be conservative, and will say that this is worth 5 RHD and DLA-0, but I fear it will be too weak compared to other options.

Bronze Wyrmling, 6 RHD: Better than Copper in almost every way, but by a small amount. Some panick-inducing breath that is mind-affecting but doesn't count as a fear effect, +4 to all mentals instead of +2, and +2 to strength, a swim speed, Small size... I feel like that's worth a RHD bump. 6 RHD, DLA-0

Blue Wyrmling, 6 RHD: The chromatic dragons' breaths are always more underwhelming than the metallic ones, even if they do more damage. And with the low, low ability scores (+2 Str and Con, and that's all) and the underwhelming SLA (destroy water is... funny, but not that useful), I feel like that's a good first dragon with some real RHDR. 5 RHD, DLA-0

Red Wyrmling, 7 RHD: Medium-sized. That means 5 natural weapons. That's a lot, especially since wing attacks are really hard to come by. Red wyrmlings have a bit more stats than blue ones, but they are extremely one-dimensional and don't bring much to the table beyond standard true dragon stuff. I don't feel like it should change it's number of RHD compared to blue. 5 RHD and DLA-0 for the red wyrmling.

Gold Wyrmling, 8 RHD: Once again, medium-sized, but that's not what we're looking for. Alternate Form! You can now sneak almost anywhere as a spider, get any movement mode or blend in most societies. Your original form will still probably be best for combat. Also, this is by far the strongest wyrmling in terms of stats, with a whopping +6 in strength, and +4 Con. Sadly, that comes at the expense of a good breath attack, which means you'd still probably be better off choosing the Silver wyrmling over this one. 8 RHD and DLA-0.


And here we have the first batch! You'll notice none of them have DNLA. That's because dragon RHD are so good that gaining one or two of these can increase your effectiveness enough that it almost makes up for lost ECL.
Next time, we will cover the Very Young dragons, if you're still hellbent on playing babies!

[ShurikVch]

That aside, with the current iteration of its stats, what is the best course of action if you want to play one of those? You have no manipulators, and absolutely no way to get some except with grafts (and if you do get graft, you have no reason to keep your invisibility, since even when your glow is off, your zombie arm will still be visible).

Well, firstly: RAW says "becoming invisible as the spell." Invisibility spreads to the all of your body - including grafts (and even backpack, if you have it on!)

Secondly: "The Ecology of Will-o'-Wisp" article included the Soul of Rage as example of Advanced Will-o'-Wisps:



It have Half-Fiend template, Claw attacks, and +25 to Sleight of Hand


Also, to another subject: considering the thread discussing negative LA - what people think about the actual negative LA from the Epic Level Handbook?
I mean - since their ECL<HD - it should mean negative LA, right?
Atropal LA: -22
Hagunemnon (Protean) LA: -8
Hunefer LA: -23
Ruin Swarm LA: -25
Uvuudaum LA: -8

[Beni-Kujaku]

Well, firstly: RAW says "becoming invisible as the spell." Invisibility spreads to the all of your body - including grafts (and even backpack, if you have it on!)

Strictly RAW, I completely agree (though the strict RAW is "you can't play that", but that's besides the point). The point of my sentence was that it makes no sense that an invisibility based on its anatomy works on something that is clearly not its anatomy. RAW, the Will-o-Wisp can't extinguish its glow in an antimagic field (it ca use its ability, since it's (Ex), but it would have no effect), and you could dispel it extinguishing its glow, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, considering it's just it holding its breath. And if it attacks, it must reactivate its glow?? No, really, considering this ability to be identical to the spell really makes no sense.

And even if it could make everything it touches invisible, having to use high level items (most arm grafts cost around 25,000 to 50,000 gp) that are pretty extensively in the hand of the GM (when are you going to find a fiend willing to graft you anything anyway) to get manipulators is the problem here. And the graft rules strongly imply that you have to replace one of your limbs of the right kind to get a graft, except specifically noted. Since no arm graft say that you can graft them on top of your other arms, you just can't get a graft, really. Your ability to make them invisible or not isn't really what matters here. But it could matter if you wanted to make something like your ioun stones invisible.

Secondly: "The Ecology of Will-o'-Wisp" article included the Soul of Rage as example of Advanced Will-o'-Wisps:

It have Half-Fiend template, Claw attacks, and +25 to Sleight of Hand

That's hilarious ^^ The little toothed mouth is what sold it to me. But these are definitely not manipulators. They are just claws, and having claws doesn't give you the ability to manipulate anything (joke's on you, housecat! Maybe you can kill a commoner, but you can't open a tuna can without them!). Also, I fail to see where this comes from. The only "ecology of will o wisps" I found was in Dragon Magazine 328, and it doesn't seem to have the Soul of Rage.

Also, to another subject: considering the thread discussing negative LA - what people think about the actual negative LA from the Epic Level Handbook?
I mean - since their ECL<HD - it should mean negative LA, right?
Atropal LA: -22
Hagunemnon (Protean) LA: -8
Hunefer LA: -23
Ruin Swarm LA: -25
Uvuudaum LA: -8

DNLA breaks the game in three ways. First, it allows the character to take prestige classes and feats before they are supposed to. Then, it allows the character to take epic feats in a non-epic game, and finally, it interacts weirdly with effects based on the number of HD. Notably, it allows to use your frightful presence on characters of your ECL. The first two don't apply to epic, since... Well, since you should be able to access any and all prestige classes and feats already. The most it can do is give you two or three more uses of epic spells than other people at your ECL, but considering the rest of your spellcasting will be 20+ levels late, it doesn't seem like a really big problem.
Finally, characters in epic levels have so many abilities and immunities that getting immunity to Dictum and free action shaken with your Frightful Presence doesn't break the game at all. This is why it's the only time in all of 3.5 where we see actual, official DNLA (Incarnate Construct doesn't count since it doesn't allow you to get more HD than your ECL).

That said, the values they assigned... aren't exactly horrible?
-The Mercane should possibly get a LA+1, but bad editing aside, +0 seems fair.
-The ability of the atropal to create and control undead natively up to 36 HD makes for some extremely powerful minionmancy shenanigans, even up to ECL 44 (what's the matter if you can't cast epic spells when your mummified servant can). I think that's a good DNLA.
-The Hagunemnon is so incredibly broken it makes no sense. Any four extraordinary abilities in the whole game? Even at these absurd levels, I think it's worth way more than ECL 36 (even if we don't consider that one of these four can be Alter Shape, and the Hagunemnon could theoretically gain an infinite number of Extraordinary abilities that way).
-The Hunefer is... nice. But I don't think it should be this high. In the end, it's just a fast boi that hits you with things that most anything will be immune to. And Ruin is a total joke. How is that an epic spell exactly? A disintegrate cast at CL 11 does more damage. Maybe something around ECL 22 to 25, just because of the absurd amount of stats and DC to its abilities?
-Ruin Swarm. Ha, ha, ha. No, that almost should be nonepic. There's absolutely nothing here. ECL 21 just because 10 epic feats should amount to something, but that's ridiculous. This probably would have 9 to 12 HD in RHDR.
-Uvuudaum has some really really nice SLAs. Notably, Contingent Resurrection can be cast infinitely since you don't have to lose an epic spell slot (you don't have one). And its head spike can be extremely deadly too, if you find a way to make several attacks per round. Still, compared to what people can do at these levels, it comes a bit short. I'd say ECL 24, maybe??

Then again, we'll come back to those if the LA assignment thread ever goes to rate the ELH, but really I was pretty impressed by how they managed it.

[ShurikVch]

Strictly RAW, I completely agree (though the strict RAW is "you can't play that", but that's besides the point).

Actually, you - technically - can: Dragon #293 gave ECL to many creatures from Monster Manual
Unfortunately, Will-o'-Wisp got enormous LA +10 (which looks less like "It's that powerful!", and more "Don't play weird creatures!" )
Also, that article implemented negative LA too: 14 of listed creatures have ECL 0, which may imply they're "LA: -1" (or even "-3" - if Animals listed presuming they're Awakened or Celestial/Fiendish)

The point of my sentence was that it makes no sense that an invisibility based on its anatomy works on something that is clearly not its anatomy.

The same problem as with aforementioned Hagunemnon using their Alter Shape to get extraordinary qualities of a Golem - despite a Golems aren't anatomical too...

RAW, the Will-o-Wisp can't extinguish its glow in an antimagic field

[citation needed]

(it ca use its ability, since it's (Ex), but it would have no effect)

AMF don't suppress extraordinary abilities.
What's you mean?

and you could dispel it extinguishing its glow, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, considering it's just it holding its breath.

Can you quote the relevant part?
Neither the "Ecology" article, nor description in the Monster Manual itself says such thing...

And if it attacks, it must reactivate its glow?? No, really, considering this ability to be identical to the spell really makes no sense.

Even if it, really, must - maybe, it just can't "to hold its breath" while attacking?

And even if it could make everything it touches invisible, having to use high level items (most arm grafts cost around 25,000 to 50,000 gp) that are pretty extensively in the hand of the GM (when are you going to find a fiend willing to graft you anything anyway) to get manipulators is the problem here.

Good point!

And the graft rules strongly imply that you have to replace one of your limbs of the right kind to get a graft, except specifically noted.

It's incorrect: you never replace anything unless the graft itself required so
Say, grafted wings - did you had a pair of wings before which you replaced with the graft? Same thing about the grafted tails.
Neither Crown of Eyes, nor Eye Stalk are, actually, replacing your eyes...

Since no arm graft say that you can graft them on top of your other arms, you just can't get a graft, really.

Clawed Arm give you ability to make Claw attack in addition to your any other attacks
How is it possible, if the graft in question just replaced your arm?
But if it's addition rather than replacement - then everything is clear.

That's hilarious ^^ The little toothed mouth is what sold it to me. But these are definitely not manipulators. They are just claws, and having claws doesn't give you the ability to manipulate anything

But Sleight of Hand bonus hints: it, clearly, can!
After all, there are plenty of creatures with perfectly good pair of hands - such as Elves - who don't have any SoH bonus...

Also, I fail to see where this comes from. The only "ecology of will o wisps" I found was in Dragon Magazine 328, and it doesn't seem to have the Soul of Rage.

It's from the article in the Dragon Monster Ecologies:

[Beni-Kujaku]

Dragon #293 implemented negative LA too

And just like that, we have something to answer to anybody asking why we don't include Dragon Magazine in competitions.

The same problem as with aforementioned Hagunemnon using their Alter Shape to get extraordinary qualities of a Golem - despite a Golems aren't anatomical too...

Why wouldn't they be? We have no lore reason on why golems are immune to magic, it's possibly because of how they're made, so anatomic.

AMF don't suppress extraordinary abilities.
What's you mean?
Can you quote the relevant part?
Neither the "Ecology" article, nor description in the Monster Manual itself says such thing...

No, that's my bad on the antimagic and dispelling.

For the "holding its breath", from Dragon 328: Will-o-wisps gain sustenance from two sources: natural gas and emotional energy. A wisp inhales the gas formed by decomposing plant and animal matter and processes it in several ways. It expels some of the gas to propel itself through the air with great precision and speed while absorbing the rest of the gas to fuel its biological functions. Digesting gas in this way produces a by-product that ignites in a heatless light when it comes into contact with air. When a will-o’-wisp exhales, this by-product flares up on the surface of its skin, creating its flickering flames and the faintest smell of sulphur.
[...]By ceasing to exhale, a will-o'-wisp can extinguish the flames that surround its body, leaving an effectively invisible transparent globe behind. The will-o'- wisp can remain invisible as long as it likes by breathing very shallowly and slowly.

It's incorrect: you never replace anything unless the graft itself required so
Clawed Arm give you ability to make Claw attack in addition to your any other attacks
How is it possible, if the graft in question just replaced your arm?
But if it's addition rather than replacement - then everything is clear.

I disagree. For grafts on the arms and legs at least, I'm pretty sure the intention in Fiend Folio was to replace the limb. The Clawed Arm just attacks on top of your other actions if it isn't used for anything else. You can cast spells with your other arm, or attack with a one-handed weapon, then the clawed arm attacks. This is clarified by two things: First, in the introductory paragraph of the fiendish grafts (p209), it is said that there are devices that can "remove one of its limbs, [...] and replace the limb with a fiendish graft", even though no fiendish graft explicitly says they replace a limb. On top of it, the Springing Leg fiendish graft talks of "the discrepancy between its two legs", which means pretty clearly that they intended the graft to replace one of the creature's legs, even though they didn't say it explicitly.

Anyways, as always, it's a matter of reading and you can rule it as you want in one of your games.

But Sleight of Hand bonus hints: it, clearly, can!
After all, there are plenty of creatures with perfectly good pair of hands - such as Elves - who don't have any SoH bonus...

There is no correlation between people with hands not having Sleight of Hand, and people with Sleight of Hand obligatorily having hands. And I see nothing in the half-fiend template that gives the ability to manipulate items. There even is a clause that if the base creature has the ability to wield weapons, then the half-fiend retains it. Which means the half-fiend acknowledges the possibility of the base creature to not be able to wield weapons, and doesn't give any ability to do so.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Very Young Dragons

Puny Human: Uh, my ancestors sent
a little lizard to help me?
Very Young Dragon: Hey! Dragon. Duh-rah-gawn. Not lizard. I don't do that tongue thing.
PH: You're uh...
VYD: Intimidating? Awe-inspiring?
PH: ...Tiny Small.



The dragons now have left the nest (or lair), but they are still small enough that people often won't take them seriously. And with good reasons. They're still young, and if they think they are already a big deal (and they are, to normal humans and animals), they are still inexperienced and won't be a threat to any party who knows what they're doing. If you ever cross the road of a very young dragon, just play with it for a few minutes. If it is amused enough, you'll be able to just go away.


Most dragons don't get new abilities at this age, so you're paying 3 RHD for low stats increases and sometimes a size increase. Spectacular. That also means that's the first level where all of the MM dragons are underpowered when played at their ECL.

Very Young White Dragon: 6 RHD: White dragons are known to be the stupidest kind, and it shows, with -4 in both Int and Cha, but it has a number of RHD equivalent to that of a wyrmling. In fact, it is surprisingly similar to the green wyrmling, with worse mental stats (-4 in both Int and Cha), better natural armor (5 instead of 4) and better movement speeds. The same rating seems justified, even though the VY White will probably see less play. 5 RHD, DLA-0.

Very Young Brass Dragon: 7 RHD: Same stats as the white dragon, but with no mental stats malus, a +6 in natural armor, and a cone of sleep as a breath weapon, which is way better than anything else the white can pull off.
6 RHD, DLA-0

Very Young Black Dragon: 7 RHD: Remember what I said about White Dragons being close to Green Wyrmlings? As above, so below, but only -2 to mental stats, an even better natural armor, but no good flying speed. With its swimming speed, its Hide skill and its ability to breathe underwater, it might make a good ambush in a swamp or something like that. Anyway, 5 RHD, and DLA-0

Very Young Copper Dragon: 8 RHD: Worse than a gold wyrmling in almost every way, and doesn't have alternate form, but it still has decent mental stats, and an useable breath weapon, even if it is not as good as Copper's. I'd say it just barely would be competent enough with 6 RHD, and it seems the right place for the first DNLA for true dragons, since ECL 7 is a point where most BAB-based prestige classes are already accessible, and having DLA-1 will not break anything (except of course if you go Ur-Priest and take Epic Spellcasting at level 20)

Very Young Green Dragon: 8 RHD: Already the Green one? Just two dragons ago I discussed a comparison with the green wyrmling! That's to say how little the green dragon really gains at this level. +2 Str and Con, +7 NA instead of +4, you increase your flying speed but lose maneuverability, and you become Medium, which means you gain 2 natural attacks with 2 wing buffets. That's nice, but is it worth more than 1 HD, I don't think so. 6 RHD, DLA-0.

Very Young Bronze Dragon: 9 RHD: That's just a Gold Wyrling that's a bit slower, has a way better breath attack, but doesn't have Alternate Form. That should be testament to how overpowered the gold wyrmling is compared to the other wyrmlings to you have to go up to the VY bronze to find an equivalent. Anyway, lack of Alternate Form really hurts your utility. 7 RHD, DLA-1

Very Young Blue Dragon: 9 RHD: This is the first color where it becomes evident how weak chromatic dragons are compared to their Metallic equivalent in terms of RHD. Blue has -4 in all mental stats and a way worse breath weapon than Bronze, and nothing to compensate. This feels like a strong 6 RHD, but no more. And DLA-1.

Very Young Silver Dragon: 10 RHD: And if you start comparing Blue to the best color, Silver, it becomes even more obvious. The silver dragon had everything it wanted at birth, and only got the standard +2 Str and Con, worse maneuverability and size increase to Medium, with natural attacks to boot. That's a gold wyrmling with an actually good breath weapon and two immunities instead of one. 9 RHD, DLA-0.

Very Young Red Dragon: 10 RHD: The strongest chromatic dragon color is heads and shoulders above Blue in terms of stats, with +6 Str, +4 Con and +2 in all mentals compared to its colleague. That, on top of Large size and the strongest breath weapon damage-wise of all VY dragons (equal with Gold), is no doubt worth 8 RHD (even though I suspect it may be a tiny bit weak at this ECL), and DLA-1.

Very Young Gold Dragon: 11 RHD: And here we have Gold. The first Large metallic dragon. That's 6 natural weapons, +6 to all mentals, +10 Str, 60ft walking speed and 200ft flying speed... Everything dragon pushed to eleven, except the breath weapon, which is still underwhelming as ever. Probably the only metallic dragon who will always use its fire breath instead of its alternative one. Is it better than a VY Silver Dragon? Most probably, even with that unuseable breath weapon. Is it better enough to warrant +1? Most probably no. We're starting to see 5th level spells in the opposition, after all. 9 RHD, DLA-1.

And here we have all the Very Young Dragons! This is the last age category where Alternate Form will be the exclusive property of Silver and Gold, as well as the last where Alternate Form will really be a big deal. This is also the first where Whites are LA-0. You see, Whites are pretty unique, because they are so dumb. Usually, intelligence is associated with memory, and you'd think that Whites can't remember much of anything with their 6 Int, compared to other dragons. On the contrary, they have photographic memory, and will remember every truce they had to get revenge eventually, or where they got every single one coin of their hoard. This low Int in fact represents the fact that their memory only applies to physical events, and not to the knowledge that is linked to it. A white dragon could remember exactly how someone wielded a sword, but could not translate it into doing it itself, or if it was hard to dodge, only "I dodged it" or "I didn't dodge it", which of course translate into having difficulty to learn new skills, and why they have such a hit to intelligence.

What did you think about these ratings? Are the Gold and Silver a bit too high? Next time, we will cover Young Dragons, and that's where the "gish" part will come into play...

[ShurikVch]

Why wouldn't they be? We have no lore reason on why golems are immune to magic, it's possibly because of how they're made, so anatomic.

Well, firstly: Constructs have no anatomy by definition - thus, any of their qualities aren't anatomic
And, if it isn't convinced you - let me point to Animated Object's Hardness and Colossi's Antimagic Field: they're extraordinary too, and thus - legal for Hagunemnon's Alter Shape

I disagree. For grafts on the arms and legs at least, I'm pretty sure the intention in Fiend Folio was to replace the limb. The Clawed Arm just attacks on top of your other actions if it isn't used for anything else. You can cast spells with your other arm, or attack with a one-handed weapon, then the clawed arm attacks. This is clarified by two things: First, in the introductory paragraph of the fiendish grafts (p209), it is said that there are devices that can "remove one of its limbs, [...] and replace the limb with a fiendish graft", even though no fiendish graft explicitly says they replace a limb.

Check the Aboleth Tentacle:

An aboleth tentacle typically replaces an arm or forelimb on the grafted creature, though sometimes it is attached just above a forelimb or below an arm.

Thus, "replacement" is an option - not a requirement.

On top of it, the Springing Leg fiendish graft talks of "the discrepancy between its two legs", which means pretty clearly that they intended the graft to replace one of the creature's legs, even though they didn't say it explicitly.

The Springing Leg have problematic RAW: you take the -10' speed penalty because of "the discrepancy between its two legs"; but if you graft the second leg - you take -10' more
(Let's hope you aren't quadruped and spent 140000 gp on 4 Springing Legs... )

There is no correlation between people with hands not having Sleight of Hand, and people with Sleight of Hand obligatorily having hands.

I humbly ask to demonstrate a single official creature which have ranks in Sleight of Hand while lacking any actual hands (or other suitable substitution - like tentacles, or telekinesis)

And I see nothing in the half-fiend template that gives the ability to manipulate items. There even is a clause that if the base creature has the ability to wield weapons, then the half-fiend retains it. Which means the half-fiend acknowledges the possibility of the base creature to not be able to wield weapons, and doesn't give any ability to do so.

I see nothing in the Will-o'-Wisp description which says it's incapable to manipulate items - even without Half-Fiend template
After all, Will-o'-Wisp have

Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items

How, exactly, it amassed those treasures if it incapable to manipulate items? (And where, exactly, it keeps them?)

[Remuko]

Very Young Dragons

Puny Human: Uh, my ancestors sent
a little lizard to help me?
Very Young Dragon: Hey! Dragon. Duh-rah-gawn. Not lizard. I don't do that tongue thing.
PH: You're uh...
VYD: Intimidating? Awe-inspiring?
PH: ...Tiny Small.



The dragons now have left the nest (or lair), but they are still small enough that people often won't take them seriously. And with good reasons. They're still young, and if they think they are already a big deal (and they are, to normal humans and animals), they are still inexperienced and won't be a threat to any party who knows what they're doing. If you ever cross the road of a very young dragon, just play with it for a few minutes. If it is amused enough, you'll be able to just go away.


Most dragons don't get new abilities at this age, so you're paying 3 RHD for low stats increases and sometimes a size increase. Spectacular. That also means that's the first level where all of the MM dragons are underpowered when played at their ECL.


Very Young Brass Dragon: 7 RHD: Same stats as the white dragon, but with no mental stats malus, a +6 in natural armor, and a cone of sleep as a breath weapon, which is way better than anything else the white can pull off.
6 RHD, DLA-0

And here we have all the Very Young Dragons! This is the last age category where Alternate Form will be the exclusive property of Silver and Gold, as well as the last where Alternate Form will really be a big deal. This is also the first where Whites are LA-0. You see, Whites are pretty unique, because they are so dumb. Usually, intelligence is associated with memory, and you'd think that Whites can't remember much of anything with their 6 Int, compared to other dragons. On the contrary, they have photographic memory, and will remember every truce they had to get revenge eventually, or where they got every single one coin of their hoard. This low Int in fact represents the fact that their memory only applies to physical events, and not to the knowledge that is linked to it. A white dragon could remember exactly how someone wielded a sword, but could not translate it into doing it itself, or if it was hard to dodge, only "I dodged it" or "I didn't dodge it", which of course translate into having difficulty to learn new skills, and why they have such a hit to intelligence.

What did you think about these ratings? Are the Gold and Silver a bit too high? Next time, we will cover Young Dragons, and that's where the "gish" part will come into play...

I played a Brass Dragon and I didn't feel too underpowered, so I think this rating seems about right. I kinda miss Ixen tbh, he was super fun once he got some levels in Warshaper.

[Metastachydium]

And here we have all the Very Young Dragons!

(Except, ahm, the red one?)

[Beni-Kujaku]

(Except, ahm, the red one?)

... Indeed. Let's say he was ashamed to stand between the silver and gold dragon. I will add it tonight, but it will be 7 RHD and DLA-1. A strong 7 RHD, I'd say‚ maybe even worth 8 RHD. Size increases do wonders to a dragon.


Edit: Done, and I believe 8 RHD was better. A Large dragon with these stats can be pretty devastating, especially with Wyrm of War.