Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

[Beni-Kujaku]

Young Dragon

"A hatchling, that is what you are. A hatchling struggling into the world. I may be younger than you in years, but I am ancient in my thoughts. Do not worry about these things. Find peace in where and what you are. People often know what must be done. All you need to do is show them the way — that is wisdom."
An inexplicably Chaotic Good young blue dragon boasting her +2 racial wisdom to her half-elf adventuring buddy



At that age, dragons start becoming fierce opponent for low-level parties, notably because of their breath weapon and the sorcerer level that the strongest ones can get. They also now have, except for White, mental capabilities on par with that of a human, but they also start developing the pride that will define them for the rest of their life. To defeat one, taunt it until it comes close enough that you can beat it into submission.

Mechanically, we see a real schism between metallic and chromatic dragons at this level. Chromatic dragons (except Red) gain almost nothing at this level, only so-so stats and a size increase to Medium for those who were still Small as a Very Young Dragon. On the other hand, all the metallic dragons, as well as Red, gain their first level of sorcerer casting, which allows them to really diversify their gameplay. And that is, by two main ways: either you get Loredrake and you cast as a 3rd level sorcerer, and you're a sorcerer who can fight, or you get any other Sovereign Archetype and you try to make the most out of your fighting skills, and you're a melee combatant with a few tricks. Either way, you're probably always better off taking Abjurant Champion as soon as possible, to increase your options without losing BAB. Do note that if your DM allows Dragon Magazine, the Spellhoarding template (#313) allows a Lightbringer dragon to scribe any wizard and cleric spells in their spellhoard. That's some near-Tier 0 shenanigans right there. Or it would be if you could get the whole progression. You won't get 9th, and you aren't a persistomancer.

Young White Dragon, 9 RHD: Anyway, let's go back to the non-casting ones. And White really lacks behind even its chromatic brethren. Compared to the red wyrmling, you have -2 Str, -4 Int and Cha, much better movement speeds with +50ft flying and the same (poor) maneuverability, a burrow speed and a swimming speed, +2 Natural armor, and an almost equal breath weapon (Young White: 10.5 damage average, Red Wyrmling: 11 damage average). I think that pretty much evens out. 5 RHD for White. And DLA-2, just because with these mental stats, it won't be able to use these bonus skill points efficiently.

Young Brass Dragon, 10 RHD: Smarter than the toughies, and tougher than the smarties, the brass dragon is unimpressive stat-wise, and comparable to a very young Bronze or a gold wyrmling, with everything ever-so-slightly worse, but with a first level sorcerer casting. 8 RHD, DLA-1 for Brass.

Young Black Dragon, 10 RHD: Very close to Brass, but without a Save-or-Lose breath and with no spellcasting? Yeah, I'll pass on this one. 6 RHD, DLA-2.

Young Copper Dragon, 11 RHD: Slow is not that good on a breath weapon, and it doesn't like getting (poor) maneuverability. I don't think it's worth more than the Brass dragon. 8 RHD, DLA-1

Young Green Dragon, 11 RHD: Congratulations, you gain nothing! Or, well, +2 in Str, Int, Wis and Cha, +3 Natural Armor, and a bit stronger breath weapon, but is that really worth 1 more RHD? Yeah, I guess so. 7 RHD, DLA-2

Young Bronze Dragon, 12 RHD: 1st level sorcerer casting and Alternate Form! Clean! A shame that everybody and their mother starts to have at least Alter Self at this level, But that's still some good advancement. And with the absolutely excellent breath weapon it has (nobody is going to convince me that this is not just Bronze not having washed its teeth with enough mint), it is worth at least 9 RHD and DLA-1

Young Blue Dragon, 12 RHD: Congratulations, you gain noth... Ah, I already made this one? Blue is a carbon copy of Green, with +1 more natural armor and +6 average damage on the breath weapon. 7 RHD, DLA-2

Young Silver Dragon, 13 RHD: How does it feel to not have the exclusivity on Alternate Form anymore with Gold? Yeah, that feels like 10 RHD, DLA-1. Young Silver is still one of the smartest dragons, with the best breath weapon, and sorcerer casting will be another boon.

Young Red Dragon, 13 RHD: +4 Str, +3 Natural Armor and 1st level sorcerer casting compared to 10 years prior. Let's add one RHD and call it a day. 9 RHD, DLA-2

Young Gold Dragon, 14 RHD: +4 Str, +3 Natural Armor and 1st level sorcerer casting compared to 10 years prior. Let's add one RHD and call it a day. 10 RHD, DLA-2

Have you noticed that every young dragon with at least 12 Cha had a sorcerer level, except Green and Blue? In fact, every single MM dragon gains their sorcerer casting when they first get at least +2 Cha and young age, except these two, who have to wait one age category more. Strange design if you ask me.
Next time, we will continue on the timeline, and cover the Juvenile dragons, one of the two age categories, with ancient, with an original name.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Juvenile Dragons

"No hunter of the sky should end his days as prey. Better to die on the wing than pinned to the ground." Juvenile Dragon, one round before hitting a wall because of their poor maneuverability.



The juvenile age category is the last one where you can play a MM true dragon, following the official rules. And that's fortunate, since they really start to lag behind in terms of power and characteristics. They all used a good bit more than half their nonepic progression, and they don't even get their 2nd level spells without a sovereign archetype. And they don't get much more than that, except 1st level spells as an SLA for most of them. If you ever encounter them, wait for them to use their breath weapon, then attack them during their recharge time.

Juvenile White Dragon, 12 RHD: This one is just sad. These ability scores (+6 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int and Cha) would be weak on a 4 RHD creature. The breath weapon is weaker than most Very Young dragons', and it's still freaking medium! 6 RHD, DLA-3.

Juvenile Brass Dragon, 13 RHD: What if a white dragon was intelligent? And had magical training? And had a soporific gas breath weapon? That would probably make something akin to a brass dragon. And that would change quite a bit. Yet, it's really not that better than a Very Young Brass Dragon. 2 sorcerer levels, yes, but apart from that it's just +2 Str and +3 natural armor. As I see it, 9 RHD and DLA-2 seem adapted, but let me know if you think that gaining 2 levels of sorcerer casting should always be worth +2 ECL at least, even if it comes so late and doesn't give a new spell level.

Juvenile Black Dragon, 13 RHD: Compared to its young self, the Juvenile Black has +2 Str, for a total of +6, +2d4 on its breath weapon, and +3 natural armor. Is it even worth 7 RHD? Yeah, probably. 7 RHD, DLA-3

Juvenile Copper Dragon, 14 RHD: Exactly the same progression as Brass, exactly the same verdict. A pretty strong 9 RHD, DLA-2

Juvenile Green Dragon, 14 RHD: Now's your chance to be a [Big Shot]! Or, I mean, a [Large Dragon]! Reach, full 6 attacks routine, and longer breath range. That, plus gaining +2 to Str and all mental stats, plus your first level sorcerer casting means that you should be worth at least 2 ECL higher than your Young self. A strong 9 RHD and DLA-2.

Juvenile Bronze Dragon, 15 RHD: Large size, and 3rd level sorcerer casting? Is it christmas already? Bronze definitely has some strong age categories when everybody else doesn't. 12 RHD, and DLA-2

Juvenile Blue Dragon, 15 RHD: Blue also made it Large this time, and awakened its innate magic. Like the Green Dragon, 9 RHD and DLA-2

Juvenile Silver Dragon, 16 RHD: Seemingly everything Silver had on top of Bronze disappears at this age category. Still a slightly better breath, +1 natural armor and cloudwalking, but I don't think it's worth one more HD. 12 RHD, DLA-2

Juvenile Red Dragon, 16 RHD: The jump in ability score between Red and the other chromatics is stupendous. In total, that's +18 Str, +8 Con, +4 to Int, Wis and Cha. It might even be acceptable for a 8-10 RHD creature. And the 8d10 breath weapon will sting. Along with 3rd level sorcerer casting, I believe it almost makes up for the weaker breath weapon and mental abilities compared to Silver. 12 RHD, DLA-2

Juvenile Gold Dragon, 17 RHD: The physical stats of Red, the mental stats of Silver, and still 60ft movement speed. Only the breath weapon leaves something to be desired. It still misses the days of 2nd edition where it had a weird cloud of chlorine as a breath weapon, that supposedly dealt the breath damage every round to people that stayed inside. I believe, all in all, Gold could be worth 13 RHD, and DLA-2. At this level, the difference due to a different breath weapon becomes less and less noticeable.


And that's all the Juvenile Dragons. As I research these, I'm amazed at the depth of the lore surrounding them. Did you know that they even had scientific designation in 1st edition? Black is Draco Causticus Sputem; Bronze is Draco Gerus Bronzo; Red is Draco Conflagratio Horriblis and Gold is Draco Orientalus Sino Dux. These names are a combination of the most remarkable characteristics of the dragon, be it their breath weapon, their appearance or their strength. I have no idea why they did it, but I always like seeing some bit of scientific thinking in the D&D universe, and such a classification means that despite the fact that the world was obviously created by the gods, they still have a Theory of Evolution, although probably a pretty limited one.

Next time, we will cover the Young Adults, and the biggest jump in power in a dragon's life.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Young Adult Dragons

"My armor is like tenfold shields. My teeth are swords, my claws spears. The shock of my tail, a thunderbolt! My wings, a hurricane! And my breath... Death."
A young adult black dragon, bragging before a halfling rogue separated from his party



If you deny a dragon their snack, then be prepared to become the snack yourself


There's no going around it, when you're planning an encounter against a dragon, chances are that you're thinking about a Young Adult. That is the exact point in life where they go from "Technically dangerous but ultimately a cute fire-breathing child" to "Terrifying magical beasts capable of wiping entire parties without extreme care". A Young Adult gets everything that makes them into a worthwhile boss. First, their Frightful Presence, to keep peons and NPCs away. Then, their second level spell, for most of them, making each of them a customizable fight for the DM and a surprising experience for the players. Third, all of them are now at least Large, with the strongest of them being Huge. They now all are able to attack from their front with their bite, from their back with their tail, from below with their claws, from above with their wings and from afar with their breath weapon. That's the way to set the mood. Against a dragon, you're not safe anywhere. And finally, maybe above all, they get damage reduction, which probably won't do much at this level, and spell resistance, which both helps to make the dragon seem invincible against weak opponents, and gives it the chance to survive more than a few rounds to make the fight a real boss fight.

That, ladies and gentlemen is genius design. This is the way to, in one fell swoop, make a terrifying creature for new players, and create a hard break in the power level to tell everybody "Now it's an adult, now it's okay to fight it. Go have fun killing it.". But it's also the age category where dragons can enter the Great Game Xorvintaal. Forsaking their caster abilities to gain instead the ability to influence "pawns", to send them somewhere, and other abilities to make them harder to kill, but not that much better at dealing damage. In a word, to send PCs on quests, or NPCs to meet them. That is the age category where dragons can become plot points. And that's the only real way to gauge a campaign. In any given campaign, there will eventually be a dragon. If the first thing that comes out of its mouth is words, then it's a RP-heavy campaign. If it's a breath attack, then it's a combat-focused one.


But what about playing it as a PC? Well, Young Adult is probably the age category I would recommend playing a dragon the most, except wyrmling. That's when you're really a full dragon. If you had any expectation about what a dragon PC could do, then they should be met right now. Of course, they still have lowish stats and have so many options now between full attack, spells and breath weapon that they can't be good everywhere. If you put too many feats in your breath weapon, you might become a bit helpless during recharge rounds. If you become a Wyrm of War and fight mostly in melee, you'll be vulnerable to spells and be dependant on your low maneuvrability. And if you specialize solely in spells, you'll probably have a hard time keeping up with full casters. If you have to fight one, try to assess the situation with a tank and make it use its breath weapon, then pin it to the ground somehow before acting accordingly to its strengths and weaknesses.


Young Adult White Dragon, 15 RHD: You know how litterally every single other dragons of every other age category have the same Intelligence and Charisma? Yeah, just for Young Adults and Adult White Dragons, Intelligence will be 2 points lower. Just to hammer the fact that they're dumb as bricks. What that makes is that their stats and breath weapon are strictly inferior to those of a Very Young Red Dragon. Of course, they now have DR 5/Magic and SR 1+HD. Yes, you read that right. A caster at the same level as the dragon will bypass your resistance even on a natural 1. The thing is, dragon Spell Resistance is based on their CR instead of their HD. Which makes it almost unusable right from the moment they get it. The only dragon who will really get to use it is the steel dragon, which we will not cover for a pretty long time. The only use for this SR is with DNLA, or if you're somehow going Forsaker for that sweet, sweet stacking SR. In RHDR, however, what this means is that you'll almost always choose to play a Xorvintaal Dragon. You lose nothing (no caster level and no SR), and you get... kind of a lot actually. First, you get one out of a list of abilities (the most interesting ones being a sort of secondary breath as a swift action that deafens and deals half as much as your regular breath, Intimidating Presence, which means you lose Frightful presence but instead can use Intimidate to automatically set the attitude of an NPC closer than 150ft to friendly (no limit on the NPC's hit dice, but your DC is higher according to their number of HD; a form of immortality (you start regenerating 10 minutes after reaching -10 hit points, but you still die from death effects and beheading); and Twist of Fate, which gets you some immediate action defenses). Also, you can grant your companions the exarch template, which mostly allows you to scry on them and speak with them wherever they are, and some nifty abilities that may or may not be renewable. With all that, I believe it should be stronger than the VY Red, but not by that much. 9 RHD for White. With their Frightful Presence actually usable and their Spell Resistance active, DNLA is not a bad place for a Young Adult Dragon. I still think they would benefit from entering Xorvintaal, but less so. DLA-2.

Young Adult Brass Dragon, 16 RHD: Spell Resistance 2+HD, woohoo! Anyway, that's just the standard package, but Brass got their 2nd level spells and Large size, plus a nice +2 across the board on their stats. Metallic dragons have much less incentive to enter the Great Game, but that's still a very nice increase. I believe it would be pretty strong at 11 RHD, but too weak at 12. And DLA-2

Young Adult Black Dragon, 16 RHD: Congrats, you get your 1st level spells when most other dragons get their 2nd! The improvements compared to White are negligible. 9 RHD, DLA-3

Young Adult Copper Dragon, 17 RHD: SR 2+HD might come up once in a blue moon. The rest is very similar to Brass with just +2 in all mental stats. A weak 12 RHD, and a strong DLA-3.

Young Adult Green Dragon, 17 RHD: I just realized the chromatic dragon with the air subtype has a swim speed, and doesn't even have that good of a flying speed compared to other dragons. Your breath weapon starts to be interesting, with 2d6 per age category, compared to Black's 2d4 and White's 1d6, you have a bit more stats, but above all, you have +2 caster levels, to a total of 3! Still no 2nd level spells, but we're getting there. Pretty obviously 10 RHD and DLA-3

Young Adult Bronze Dragon, 18 RHD: Still 2+HD SR. I don't think Alternate Form and a slightly better breath weapon can justify having more than one RHD more than Copper. 13 RHD, DLA-3

Young Adult Blue Dragon, 18 RHD: Rarely have I seen so few things changing, even between other instances of Blue and Green. 11 RHD, DLA-4.

Young Adult Silver Dragon, 19 RHD: As above, so below. That's almost exactly the same statblock as Bronze. 13 RHD, DLA-3

Young Adult Red Dragon, 19 RHD: HUGE! However, Huge size doesn't give a dragon as much as Large size does, since their crush is a standard action and doesn't affect creatures above Small. Red is pretty comparable to Silver, with very slightly better stats and one more size category, but much less utility via notably Alternate Form and Cloudwalking. I suggest 13 RHD, DLA-3.

Young Adult Gold Dragon, 20 RHD: Who wants to play only this at 20th level? Definitely not me. But it might work nicely around 14 RHD and DLA-3. Adding dragon hit dice starts to not have that much impact when we're nearing level 20.


And here they are, in all their majesty and pride, the Young Adults! As always, please tell me what you think of my ratings. Next time, we will take a small dip into epic territory and review the Adult dragons!

[ShurikVch]

Question: how negative LA would work for E6 rules?
+8 ability points for every "-1"?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Question: how negative LA would work for E6 rules?
+8 ability points for every "-1"?

That's a good question. I'm very, very far from an expert in E6, so these are only suggestions. First, I think using DNLA is not the way to go. DNLA is generally simpler to use in a low optimisation game, and would be usable in E6, but with so few levels, you'd like to have as many class levels as possible to create a more customized character (not even counting the fact that using DNLA and replacing negative LA with ability points would prevent you from playing as any monster with natively more than 6 RHD). So I would suggest using RHDR instead, with no change compared to a normal 20-level game (you reduce the monster's number of RHD and play it as if it was LA+0 with the new number of RHD).

If you for some reason want to play with Direct Negative LA (if you want to play a shrieker, for example, or just if you want the feel of being a full monster and not a reduced version of it), I would suggest not replacing it with ability points. The whole point of "positive LA=less ability points" in E6 is to allow the player to have more class levels, in a game where it is a rare commodity. DNLA does just that, so I don't see why you would change that. Plus, monsters don't really need more stats. They have that already. What they need is some class features. So if you want to play a Large Water Elemental (8 RHD normally, DLA-3, total ECL 5), you could play a Large Water Elemental with one level of Barbarian in E6 (note that since you have 9 HD in total, you get a feat more than other people before going into epic).

Once again, I'm not an expert, and if somebody proposes another way of handling it, I'd like to hear it.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Adult dragons

"How fortuitous. Usually‚ I must leave my lair in order to feed my young"
- An impressively well-represented Adult Black Dragon to misguided adventurers wanting to raid her lair.




What is adulthood for a dragon? For a human or a real-life animal, being an adult can mean a variety of things. Having reached your maximum size, being considered mature enough to be held responsible for your actions, being able to safely procreate and carry babies, being able and authorized to choose for yourself and vote to influence your future, or leaving the parents' home to live by yourself. This is not the case for dragons. Dragons never reach a maximal size and always get bigger and wiser. They can legally be held responsible for their actions from birth, can have children from Young age, are not authorized to vote until they are Great Wyrms, and generally leave their nest around Very Young age. No, for a dragon, being an adult means understanding the necessity to put their species before themselves. Dragons under young adult age don't really care for their wyrmling. They often breed, but mostly leave the eggs be, leading to a very high mortality rate among wyrmlings born of young parents. On the other hand, an adult dragon will start taking care of them, raising them and feeding them for the first few years of the wyrmling's life. That is one of the main reasons why a species so arrogant and so self-centered could survive until now. If you're trying to attack an adult dragon's lair, take into account that no animal is fiercer than when they protect their young. In fact, the best target in this case is to attack a dragon who mated with a dragon of another color. The eggs resulting from such a union may have the immunity to only one parent's breath weapon, making the dragons refrain from using their breath inside their lair, lest they kill their own unborn offspring.

As PCs, adult dragons do not gain much that their young adult self didn't already have. Most of them gain their second 3/day SLA, but considering how weak dragons SLA are, that doesn't make up for increasing their ECL by three. Also, around half of them now have more than 20 RHD. As always, I won't give DNLA to those ones. If you want to, feel free.

Adult White Dragon, 18 RHD: Ladies and gentlemen, it has done it! White now has the same intelligence as a regular human! Round of applause, please. Apart from that, it gets +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha, and its first sorcerer level, which you will probably forego to still go Xorvintaal. 10 RHD. With DNLA, White gains SR 0+HD and a DC 20 Frightful Presence, which is honestly very high compared to last category. Probably would make a strong DLA-4. Oh, yeah, and it has Gust of Wind as an SLA.

Adult Brass Dragon, 19 RHD: See, White? That's what you should be able to do. 3rd level sorcerer spells (7th level casting), Suggestion as an SLA, 14 in mentals, and of course still a cone of sleep breath weapon. Not much to say here, it's just a slightly buffed Young Adult. Still, Suggestion is good utility, and the sorcerer casting seems to really come online. 13 RHD, DLA-3.

Adult Black Dragon, 19 RHD: There's only one question to ask yourself: is Black worth one RHD more than White. +2 Int and Wis, worse movement speeds, somehow worse SLAs (what does corrupt water even do? Who would ever go fight angels armed with a flask of water?), but +2 sorcerer levels (with no new spell level, though). I believe that, as long as the benefits from Xorvintaal still outweigh having a functional spellcasting ability, Black will not outrank White. 10 RHD, DLA-4

Adult Copper Dragon, 20 RHD: Compared to Brass, you have +2 to all mentals, Stone Shape as an SLA (which I find a bit more useful than Suggestion, but your mileage may vary), and worse movement speeds, with very slightly worse breath weapon. I don't think a change is required. 13 RHD, DLA-4.

Adult Green Dragon, 20 RHD: I'll never understand how they choose size categories for dragons. Green and Copper have the same number of RHD and Strength (before size adjustments), yet Copper is Large, and Green is Huge. Not that Green will complain of course, but that's still weird. Being Huge nets it +4 Str and +2 to all other stats (except Dex, of course), a nigh-useless crush, a nice Suggestion SLA, and 5th level sorcerer casting giving you 2nd level spells. Nice bonus, I guess. 11 RHD, DLA-5.

Adult Bronze Dragon, 21 RHD: And the medal for weakest epic dragon goes to... Adult Bronze! Don't worry, you'll get the bronze medal later. And here we have another typical case of "chromatics can't have nice things". Green doesn't get an SLA as a Juvenile dragon, which means it only has one SLA as an Adult. Bronze doesn't have Juvenile SLA either, but it has two as an Adult to make up for it. Create Food and Water, and Fog Cloud. Fog Cloud probably should have been a Juvenile SLA too. Apart from it, 7th level sorcerer casting, +2 to all stats, +4 to Str, and the standard +3 natural armor, plus Huge size. That seems like an acceptable 15 RHD, if a bit weak.

Adult Blue Dragon, 21 RHD: Finally! Blue and Green are finally distinguishable from each other! And the adult blue dragon, instead of the very good 3rd level spell Suggestion, gets a weak 1st level spell as an SLA, Ventriloquism. Still, that's far from enough to make it one RHD less. 12 RHD

Adult Silver Dragon, 22 RHD: You were the chosen one, one of the two wyrmlings with LA +1! And now you have suboptimal SLAs that put you ever lower than Bronze, with nothing to make up for it (no, +1 natural armor doesn't count). I'm really considering giving it 14 RHD, but no. 15 RHD for the adult silver dragon.

Adult Red Dragon, 22 RHD: Who needs SLA anyway when you have +6 Str, -4 Int and Cha, -2 Wis, compared to Silver, and no paralysing breath weapon? Well, the adult red dragon would like some. Alas, it has nothing. Not even a feather fall. A pretty weak 14 RHD.

Adult Gold Dragon, 23 RHD: Here again, no SLA, but a very nice ability to create a Luck stone, which radiates (at this age category) a +1 luck bonus on saving throws, skill checks and ability checks for at least 19 hours in a 60ft radius. Honestly, that's probably better than most SLAs from other colors. Apart from that, you only really have +6 Str compared to the adult silver dragon (and better movement speeds). Considering your worse breath weapon, I don't think that's worse bumping your ECL up. 15 RHD.


Once upon a time, a knight tried to attack an adult dragon's lair. The red dragon didn't waste any time and breathed fire on the knight and their steed. The horse succumbed, and the knight, taking the saddle from its corpse, swore that the next creature they would ride would be the dragon itself. He charged, and defeated the dragon, but could not ride it. Why? He needed to scale up the saddle! Hehahhahahehaha!! Haaaa... I shouldn't try to make puns in another language. Anyway, next time, we will take a look at the Mature Dragons, which when compared to dragon's life expectancy, is equivalent to 18-35% of their life. I believe if we were dragons, most of the Playground would be around the Mature age category, or maybe Old for the 1st edition veterans.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Mature Adult Dragons

"If you ignore the dragon, it will eat you. If you defy the dragon it will overpower you. But if you ride the dragon, you will take advantage of its strength and power." - Chinese proverb



There's something wrong with this picture of a mature Bronze Dragon. It's not the knight, there are records of humans riding dragons into battle. The absence of a dorsal fin on its back may be explained by injury or mutation. Even the pretty evil-looking and useless armor might be for intimidation or infiltration. However, a dragon would never accept a bridle and reins.


Mature adult dragons have lived long enough that almost no other creature on the material plane can challenge them (you can check the monster manual, the only non-Outsiders with a CR higher than the typical Mature Dragon's 15 are nightwalkers and inevitables, which are extraplanar anyway, the greater stone golem, which should not exist anyway, and the Tarrasque). Most of them (All but Black, White and Green) don't have to hunt anymore either, since they can natively cast Create Food and Water. Which means that, if a mature dragon dies, it is either because they willingly chose to put themselves in danger (many metallic dragons like to go on crusades against evil, for example), because of a feud between dragons, or because some filthy humanoid adventurers go on quests specifically to kill them and take their hoard. They know that, and will invariably overly prepare for the latter eventuality. Which means that, if you're some filthy humanoid adventurers with a taste for easy gold, you absolutely need to fight the dragon outside of their lair (yes, it's the opposite advice from the previous age category. Observe and know your dragons, if they're protective, they're adult, if they're paranoiac, they're mature). Find any excuse to make them go outside, be it that the nearby town sent people to rob them, or that one of their friend is about to die in an ice country, or kill their young to make them thirst for revenge. Because their lair will be so riddled with traps that you won't even be able to see them before you're toast.

As a PC, however, this age category is probably the most disappointing so far. 4th level spells is not that bad (and even really good), but DR/magic is completely useless (even in 3.0, it was still DR 10/+1, what were they thinking?), and the stats increase are almost inexistent.

Mature White Dragon, 21 RHD: The four weakest dragons do not have it that bad, since they at least get Huge size, and the reach thereof, and actually interesting stat increases with +4 Str, +2 Con, and +2 to all mental stats. White now has +16 Str, +10 Con, and +2 in mental stats, plus... Still no 2nd level spells? What are you waiting for, Great Wyrm? The question is: is it worth 12 RHD? Is it an instant pick compared to a Young Adult Brass or a Juvenile Bronze? Compared to the former, White has +8 Str and +4 Con, for -2 Int, Wis and Cha, +5 natural armor, a better DR and a size increase, but is 2 sorcerer levels late and has a worse breath weapon. I believe this still makes the Mature White very marginally better than Young Adult Brass, but not enough to make it go one RHD above it. I suggest 11 RHD.

Mature Brass Dragon, 22 RHD: As I already said, 4th level spells are pretty interesting, and with the stats increase dragons get when they become huge, I think it should make for a solid 15 RHD.

Mature Black Dragon, 22 RHD: That's just an Adult Green Dragon with -2 in Int, Wis and Cha, a better DR and +2 natural armor. 12 RHD.

Mature Copper Dragon, 23 RHD: Compared to an Adult Bronze or Silver, it really only loses 2 points in all mental stats, Alternate Form (which is almost useless when you can cast Polymorph in combat and Alter Self elsewhere) and an ever-so-slightly weaker breath weapon, and has the utility of Stone Shape, a better natural armor and of course better DR. I believe it is the lower limit of 16 RHD.

Mature Green Dragon, 23 RHD: +2 Strength, and +3 natural armor. Apart from the two sorcerer levels, this is the extent of what they gain at this age category. And it will be the same for every dragon after this one. The simple fact that you get no class feature instead of the prestige classes you should be about to complete at this ECL make me not want to give it any more than 1 RHD more than the previous age category. 13 RHD

Mature Bronze Dragon, 24 RHD: You know what is nice with Alternate Form? You lose almost everything that makes a dragon strong. Attack modes, breath weapon, natural armor, physical stats... All gone. You become a weak sorcerer with 10 Constitution. Which means any guy with True Seeing, a dagger, and a flask of Black Lotus Extract has 25% chance to just kill a 24 RHD, CR 17 creature in one swing if they try to fit in society. Anyway, a slightly weak 16 RHD for the Mature Bronze Dragon.

Mature Blue Dragon, 24 RHD: You know what I always say about Blue and Green being the same? Well it's not changing anytime soon. 14 RHD

Mature Silver Dragon, 25 RHD: And we have the metallic counterpart of Blue, Silver is just like Bronze with worse SLAs, better breath weapons, no swimming speed and +1 natural armor. 16 RHD

Mature Red Dragon, 25 RHD: "+2 Strength only? Who decided that? I'm the one who decides those things!" - Mature Red Dragon, probably. Red completely reverts the pattern of previous dragons and gains +2 Con, Int, Wis and Cha instead. That's better than the others, but isn't worth more than 15 RHD.

Mature Gold Dragon, 26 RHD: "What? Red is trying to have an ability score higher than mine? Unacceptable!" - Mature Gold Dragon, probably. Gold gains +2 Strength as normal, but also gains +2 Con just to match Red's score. Still not worth more than 1 RHD more, especially at this level. 17 RHD.


There is something I strongly dislike in the way WotC handles true dragons, which is particularly visible here. True dragons have so much individuality in lore. Green dragons are intriguing, deceptive masterminds. Bronze dragons are almost Lawful Stupid dragons who will enforce absolute justice to an exaggerate extent. Black dragons are ambush predators and gold dragons like to study "real" magic as a wizard rather than using their innate powers. And yet, when it comes down to mechanical stats, they all get basically the same things, and their SLAs are simply inconsequential compared to their sorcerer casting. How cool would it be if bronze dragons got a paladin's smite? If black dragons got some sort of stupid Hide bonus when they're underwater, or could just turn invisible? If green dragons could change their color and shape to look like any other dragon at will, or if gold dragons could convert their innate sorcerer casting into wizard levels when they gain normal wizard level, the way shadowcasters do? That would make them much more unique and interesting to play and to DM, in my opinion.

Fortunately, they still have a few SLAs which are unique to each type of dragon, and next time, we'll see what they get as their third, by reviewing the Old dragons!

[QuadraticGish]

There is something I strongly dislike in the way WotC handles true dragons, which is particularly visible here. True dragons have so much individuality in lore. Green dragons are intriguing, deceptive masterminds. Bronze dragons are almost Lawful Stupid dragons who will enforce absolute justice to an exaggerate extent. Black dragons are ambush predators and gold dragons like to study "real" magic as a wizard rather than using their innate powers. And yet, when it comes down to mechanical stats, they all get basically the same things, and their SLAs are simply inconsequential compared to their sorcerer casting. How cool would it be if bronze dragons got a paladin's smite? If black dragons got some sort of stupid Hide bonus when they're underwater, or could just turn invisible? If green dragons could change their color and shape to look like any other dragon at will, or if gold dragons could convert their innate sorcerer casting into wizard levels when they gain normal wizard level, the way shadowcasters do? That would make them much more unique and interesting to play and to DM, in my opinion.

Fortunately, they still have a few SLAs which are unique to each type of dragon, and next time, we'll see what they get as their third, by reviewing the Old dragons!

One thing I give PF is that they gave the dragons some unique abilities to differentiate them more, such as how red dragons can eventually see perfectly through smoke or how White Dragons eventually become masters of arctic conditions by being able to shape ice and snow at will and see perfectly through snowy conditions.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I also really like 5E's Legendary Actions and Lair Actions. In addition to getting to act off-turn a couple of times per round, if you're foolish enough to fight a dragon in its lair it gets a whole 'nother set of thematic actions at initiative count 0.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I also really like 5E's Legendary Actions and Lair Actions. In addition to getting to act off-turn a couple of times per round, if you're foolish enough to fight a dragon in its lair it gets a whole 'nother set of thematic actions at initiative count 0.

Initiative count 20, not 0, but yes.

[Beni-Kujaku]

One thing I give PF is that they gave the dragons some unique abilities to differentiate them more.

Did I already say how much I love Pathfinder's monsters? Because I do. The way they have to make enemies more flavorful and truer to their intent while changing only a few things to their statblock is genius. I've already talked about thd tojanida‚ but have you seen what they did with the Tarrasque? That's everything it's ever wanted! Same thing with the demilich. With just one line‚ ("a non-awakened demilich can only act against people directly threatening its corpse or treasure") ‚ they created something that acts as a pharaoh's curse which curses or kills greedy people (which mirrors the original demilich of tomb of annihilation) while letting the DM play a 3.5 demilich with the option to be "awakened". I love so many of these monsters!

I also really like 5E's Legendary Actions and Lair Actions.

Interestingly‚ it seems they already had that idea in the late 3.5. Look at the Xorvintaal dragon template from MM5. Don't these abilities look like an early version of Legendary Actions and Legendary Resistance? No real Lair Actions I know of though (except the powers the gods have in their domain).

[Beni-Kujaku]

Old Dragons

"I kill where I wish and none dare resist! I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today. Then I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong, strong, STRONG!! " - An old red dragon laughing at a halfling who thought they could escape with a ring of its hoard despite its Locate Object.



At this point, the mere sight of a dragon's eye should be enough to create awe and fear in mortal men. Also, if you have a fairly large computer screen, this picture should be the right scale for an old dragon's eye. A dragon's eye grows much slower than its body length as it matures.

There is a fundamental difference between a dragon and any other race. More than wings, scales and fiery breath, what distinguishes the dragon from a human or a dwarf is its lifespan. When all humans of its generation are long gone and forgotten, even by their descendants, when dwarves have returned to the earth and even elves are on the very twilight of their lives and prepare for the last journey, the dragon hasn't reached half of its natural lifespan, and is stronger than ever. This means that a dragon is a living library. In 600 years of life, you have mastered every subject to ever catch your interest. The "present" starts to become blurry, and everything you always do is prepare the future, so that this future will allow you to prepare another farther future. An old dragon will most probably have allies and extended its influence through the lands all around its lair. If you ever have to face one of these, try explaining how leaving you alive will benefit the dragon in the long run. They will probably leave you be, just in case you're right.

Being old is a step up in a dragon's life. Indeed, if you look up the 66th page of Draconomicon, you'll find that every Old or older dragon can take epic feats instead of regular feats, with no other restriction. This can change everything in the way the dragon is played. And I'm going to completely ignore it for the purpose of this thread. First, because this is obviously not the intended reading, as all old true dragons have more than 21 RHD (and dragonwrought kobolds can go run a cheese factory and stop bothering everyone). And second, because that would make some ridiculous combos available pre-epic with RHDR. Legendary Wrestler is already nice on a grappling build, but the best ones are the Divine Epic feats. Planar Turning, Undead Mastery and Zone of Animation can be monstrously powerful feats on a nonepic dragon with the Lightkeeper Archetype. So, I elected to not take them into account. Not sure if that will change a lot but hey, there's that.

Old White Dragon, 24 RHD: Freeing fog is a surprisingly powerful SLA, it's some good BFC with no save for the primary effect. White also gets it's 2nd level spells (better late than never, I guess). Honestly, and I say that in the saddest way possible, White might still benefit more from Xorvintaal abilities than their spells. +4 insight to all saves is nothing to sneeze at, after all (sigh). And that's on top of the inexistent ability boost white dragons get at this age category. A really weak 13 RHD should be appropriate here, mostly because of the natural armor, which becomes really hard to go through at this level. Maybe even 12.

Old Brass Dragon, 25 RHD: Control Winds is also a very good SLA, and if you have a Sovereign Archetype, you can't even cast it innately. That's very good. Same inconsequential stat boost as White. A weak 17 RHD should be good here.

Old Black Dragon, 25 RHD: You know, I was thinking, with what White and Brass got, that SLAs at this level would really improve dragons' power level. And then Black got Plant Growth. Take your 13 RHD and get out. No, even 2 more sorcerer levels won't make it worth one more RHD than White, even if it's close.

Old Copper Dragon, 26 RHD: Basically 2 SLAs with Transmute Rock to Mud and Mud to Rock. Nice utility! What else? Nothing? Well, 17 RHD seems the right choice to me.

Old Green Dragon, 26 RHD: Plant Growth again !?? Black is probably the most keen of all dragons on hunting fresh meat, and Green likes to speak and trick with humanoids before eating them! Why do you get gardening SLAs!? I guess it's explainable in the case of the forest-dwelling green dragon, but still, that's almost upsetting! Anyway. Interesting ability scores, with +2 everywhere (except Dex) compared to the previous age category, and 9th level sorcerer casting. That... is acceptable, I guess. I suggest 15 RHD for the green dragon.

Old Bronze Dragon, 27 RHD: Ladies and gentlemen, we have a new low. A 2nd-level spell as an SLA, when the dragon can innately cast 5th level spells. Ridiculous. I guess, they still get some ability boosts, 11th level sorcerer casting and natural armor. A solid 17 RHD it is. And I believe that with its 3rd epic feat and so many Dragon RHD, it should be playable around ECL 21 (if the party is not very optimized). DLA-6

Old Blue Dragon, 27 RHD: Illusionary Terrain is really not that good a spell... And when you could have cast it yourself, it's even less impressive. As always, they're worth the same as Green. 16 RHD

Old Silver Dragon, 28 RHD: Control Winds is much better than Detect Thoughts, and it is also pretty thematic to the Silver dragon's affinity with the sky. If you didn't take a sovereign archetype, you could have already been able to cast that, but let's be honest, you most probably did take a sovereign archetype. That, and Silver still has the best breath weapon of all. 18? Probably not, but the high-end limit of 17 RHD in my opinion. DLA-6 seems balanced too.

Old Red Dragon, 28 RHD: Silver's rival is now Gargantuan. Yet, they don't get increased stats as most dragons do when they change size. They still get increased flight speed, reduced maneuverability, increased reach and breathing area, grappling modifiers... I believe that, all in all, they're slightly stronger than Silver, and deserve 18 RHD, and DLA-6.

(G)Old Dragon, 29 RHD: Have you ever seen a fictional creature so prideful, that they willingly increase their stats to conform to their idea of greatness? Because I feel like that was the design idea behind old gold dragons. Most of their life, they have the same mental stats as Silver and the same strength as Red, but starting now, they get 2 more in Int, Wis and Cha than Silver, and 4 more Str than Red. None shall challenge their superiority! Also, they're Gargantuan, get the faster flight speed any MM dragon ever gets (250ft), get a 6th level spell as an SLA like White, but gets another ability at this level, because why the hell not? Detect Gems is... not that useful, but at least it's unique, and it allows the dragon to know in 12 seconds if any single gem of its hoard is missing, but the real kicker here is Geas. This spell is generally pretty useful since it's the equivalent of a no-save Domination ("Your geas is to never attack me or my companions and always follow my orders"), but as an SLA, it's absolutely broken. It is a standard action no-save-just-lose, which gives you control on the creature as a bonus. Fortunately, we're reaching levels where immunities to mind-affecting and Spell Resistance can make it not that automatic, but you're still going to end more than your fair share of encounters just like that. The Old Gold Dragon is all about overkill in every aspect of its stat sheet, and just for that, I think it deserves 20 RHD. And they're pretty clearly epic, with DLA-5 and ECL 24 in my opinion.


That was a really nice age category, pretty flavorful, and showing once again if it was necessary that Gold Dragons are meant and would like to rule the world. Next time, we'll come back to the "you only get more DR" age categories, with even an unoriginal name: the Very Old Dragons!

[MightypIon]

While this is not a mechanical thing, the following things worked pretty well and created memorable encounters:

1: Relatively low level:
Ettercap with levels in Warpriest/Cult leader, fighting with 2 throwing axes. Makes use of the ettercaps relatively high dex for two weapon fighting, makes use of the ettercaps relatively high strength, makes use of his fairly high wisdom, and getting webbed by it and then pelted from range is not fun.

2: Pretty high level: Nocticulas/Shamiras Succubus Speznaz team.
Several Succubus snipers with 7 levels in mysterious stranger and Mosin Nagants (they have been to earth to figure out what was going on there during world war 1), backed by several two weapon fighting kidnappers. The snipers open up, the kidnappers lay in ambush when the party start splitting up as it tries to get to the snipers, abduct or kill a party member for interrogation or conversion, retreat via teleport or ethereal jaunt at will, rinse and repeat until the heroes cry "auntie" to Nocticula/Shamira.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Very Old Dragons

"The thing is, we are all, in a sense, supper. Walking, talking, breathing suppers, that's what we are. Take you, for instance. YOU are about to be eaten by ME, so that makes you supper. That's obvious. But even a murderous carnivore like myself will be supper for worms one day. We're all snatching precious moments from the peaceful jaws of time." A very old dragon having a midlife crisis



You're not forced to follow my advices as to how to handle a dragon, but please, for your own sake, never approach a very old white dragon like that while wearing something shiny on your head.

Very old. Like old, but moreso (what do you mean I'm running out of quips to animate the age category? Nonsense.). Age doesn't do much to reduce a dragon's pride, and they are still very far from twilight. If a very old dragon somehow captures you, you can try to pretend worshipping them and play on their pride to catch them by surprise. Or you can distract them by telling them stories of faraway places. The dragon doesn't leave their hoard for too long, and their thralls will only report the most important events. They are unlikely to know details about what happens on another continent, and might enjoy a storyteller enough to not eat/burn/enslave them.

Very Old White Dragon, 27 RHD: Good stat boosts (+2 in all stats), an obsolete DR/magic, a 7th level sorcerer casting that you'll always wish to be just a tad higher, and +3 natural armor. No more than 14 RHD, even if only touch attacks will ever get past your natural armor.

Very Old Brass Dragon, 28 RHD: With 6th level spells, we're reaching levels where dragons will spend almost all their turns casting spells instead of actually being a dragon. A sad truth, but that's what 3rd edition is all about. Still, a dragon is a dragon, and this one is worth at least 18 RHD. With DNLA, other dragon advantages will play a much greater role, and I think DLA-7 should make for some interesting plays. It will allow entry into the epic dragon prestige classes, which are underpowered anyway, so it should make them decently playable.

Very Old Black Dragon, 28 RHD: White, but better in almost every way. Surprisingly, the breath weapon starts to become really dangerous around these age categories, with the range, and the fact that the damage scales faster than the reassigned number of RHD. 18d4 will probably drop one or two spellcasters at these ECL. 15 RHD

Very Old Copper Dragon, 29 RHD: As always, a bit better stats than Brass, equivalently useful SLAs, and a worse movement speed. 18 RHD, and a weak DLA-7.

Very Old Green Dragon, 29 RHD: For how long have you been Huge, dude? Don't you think it's time to evolve even further beyond? Look at what you get for this age category. +2 Str, +3 NA, 2 sorcerer levels, and that's all? Seriously, that's the bare minimum, make an effort! You should be ashamed of yourself. 16 RHD, and it would be DLA-9 if it didn't make it into nonepic.

Very Old Bronze Dragon, 30 RHD: Gosh these stat increases are awful. 18 RHD, not one more. It will maybe be a bit strong, but at these levels, there will be all the competition it needs. DLA-7 seems appropriate too. You can also go dragon ascendant immediately, if you want to become a god at ECL 42, but nobody will do that if it means giving up your spellcasting (and no, Xorvintaal hasn't been worth it for a few age categories now).

Very Old Blue Dragon, 30 RHD: I should just write one entry for both Green and Blue, with blue getting always one more RHD for the two sorcerer levels. 17 RHD, DLA-9.

Very Old Silver Dragon, 31 RHD: Can somebody explain to me who decided that now was the good time for Silver to randomly get more mental stats than Bronze, while they had the same for their whole life? Anyway, Silver likes that very much, which could make it worth 19 RHD, but it may lag a bit behind compared to the opposition. Maybe 18 could be acceptable too. And DLA-8 looks appropriate.

Very Old Red Dragon, 31 RHD: Moar stats, moar fire! It's the 4th age category in a row that Red gains mental stats, which is unheard of. No other dragon ever gets more than two intelligence increases in a row, let alone four. It's definitely stronger than Silver in my opinion, even with that breath weapon. I suggest 19 RHD and DLA-7.

Very (G)Old Dragon, 32 RHD: Even Gold didn't get 4 intelligence increases in a row, but since it randomly got +4 intelligence last category, it has the same increase of +8 intelligence compared to its Young Adult self. I'd pay some money to be able to witness the meeting in which the stats of the true dragons were decided, because I've been trying to find some sense in there for two months now, and I've yet to find any. Mechanically, it's more of the same, and Geas will still carry you through one fight a day with no problem. 21 RHD, DLA-7, obviously.

We're reaching a point where, even if they were playable, nobody would ever play these dragons except in the most epic of games. It will always be more interesting to play a Young Adult with ten class levels than a Very Old one with nothing but its original stats, even if the result is balanced. Why am I continuing, you ask? Dunno. Probably a mix of morbid curiosity and respectability, I guess. Next time, it's Ancient time, baby! Or not baby at all, but you know the drill.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Ancient Dragons

"I, too, have a passion for the arcane arts. I am curious, however... what would happen if we turned the magic off?
You cease to be a mighty wizard and become a fragile pointy-eared wizard. While I?

I am still a dragon. "
- An Ancient Black Dragon, showing her tendency to both ambush and torture her preys.


An ancient dragon stands before you. The sun reaching from behind its wings prevent you from making out its colors. Is it a bronze dragon or a red dragon? The answer, and your attitude according to this color, may determine if you live or die.


How do you feel about ants? If an ant climbs on your leg while you're sitting in a yard, do you squash it? Do you catch it and throw it elsewhere? Or do you let it climb as much as it wants as long as it doesn't try to enter your mouth or something? That is what an Ancient Dragon thinks of humanoids. They're weak, ignorant, predictable, and can be controlled as easily as you can control a line of ants by making a line with a wet finger through the procession. Most Ancient Dragons have one or more regions, or even kingdoms, under their control. That is how they spend their time, since nothing else is even a challenge for them. Seeing humans as little more than pawns also makes their pride in themselves and their race reach its climax. If you feel confident in taking an ancient dragon down, the best way is to taunt them first, to anger them and make them attack and come close enough that you can beat them into submission without dealing with all their traps and peons.

As PCs, ancient dragons would most probably be very authoritarian, trying to ascertain themselves as the leader of the group at every occasion. After all, no other race comes close to them in terms of wisdom and charisma. Mechanically, this age category gives the true dragons their 4th SLA, but their sorcerer casting is for the most part much better than that, and this SLA becomes little more than another spell known that you can't choose yourself. It probably has a better caster level, since it's based off your number of RHD and not your sorcerer level, and it's only a standard action to cast, which could give an advantage over simply choosing the spell, but most of them depend weakly on the caster level, and only summon swarm has a real utility when it is cast as a sstandard action instead of a full-round one.


Ancient White Dragon, 30 RHD: I can't overstate how much it pains me to see that sorcerer casting. 9th level sorcerer casting is just so disappointing on a creature that was supposed to be CR 18. At least the SLA is pretty good. That's one of the few where caster level has an effect on a lot of the spell's parameters, and it's a good utility that will free one spell known from the highest level you can cast at this point. I believe it would make for a strong 15 RHD. And even with all its RHD, I don't think it's worth ECL 21.

Ancient Brass Dragon, 31 RHD: Many RHD about nothing. Control Weather is one of the worst 7th level spells for an adventurer. It's nice if you want to destroy a city, but as a metallic dragon, there's little chance you'll ever want to do that. And even if the casting time goes from 10 min to 1 round, the time the weather takes to manifest is still 10 minutes, so it's still completely useless in combat. Also, like White, you get only +2 Str and +3 natural armor (for a respectable total of +30, same as the Tarrasque). A pretty weak 20 RHD, and DLA-8.

Ancient Black Dragon, 31 RHD: What is Vaarsuvius' nemesis worth? Well, as much as I like flavorful SLAs, this one is just useless. It's only there to say "Hey look at how evil black dragons are that they summon clouds of vermin!". But as written, Insect Plague only summons a bunch of CR 3 creatures that can't even move. If you have no way to restrain the opponents to one square, this spell will literally deal 2d6 to them and that's all. 11th level casting is enough that I'm comfortable giving it 16 RHD, though. And DLA-10 on top of that. What are you gonna do in environment higher than really low-epic with your 5th level spells, even with 31 RHD worth of BAB and feats?

Ancient Copper Dragon, 32 RHD: Wall of Stone is better than Control Weather, but I don't think it's enough to make a difference with Brass. I suggest 20 RHD, DLA-8

Ancient Green Dragon, 32 RHD: Big! Big! Bigger and better than ever! The Green Dragon finally reaches its final size of Gargantuan, and as often with true dragons, it comes with a full increase of its stats. Dominate Person is also a very nice SLA. A strong 17 RHD seems to fit it, along with DLA-9.

Ancient Bronze Dragon, 33 RHD: More Gargantuan dragons! I'm pretty sure Control Water has a use, in an aquatic campaign, to capsize boats... Which are campaigns where you shouldn't play a dragon anyway, not even counting the fact that a Gargantuan creature with +24 Str should have no problem capsizing a boat on its own. Most of the time, this will be completely useless as an SLA. Still, a pretty average 20 RHD and DLA-8 should fit the Ancient Bronze Dragon.

Ancient Blue Dragon, 33 RHD: Same as Green, but with Mass Disguise Person as an SLA (yes, they call it Veil, but it's Mass Disguise Person, change my mind). This will be marginally useful, but as always with illusions like these, they will be easily found out if you disguise somebody as somebody with a size or body shape vastly different. And since you're a dragon... Anyway, a weak 18 RHD, DLA-10 would be a decent estimation, I think.

Ancient Silver Dragon, 34 RHD: Control Weather again? Whyyy? Anyway, good stats is good, and that makes for an easy 20 RHD, DLA-8

Ancient Red Dragon, 34 RHD: Not enough stat bonuses to really stand out compared to what Silver has more than it (notably, Silver's excellent breath weapon). Find the Path is fun as an SLA, but it won't change your life except if the scenario is specifically about finding your way in a maze. It's interesting to see how the most violent and combat-oriented of all chromatic dragons mostly has divination SLAs. I guess it prefers to find more gold than sow destruction. 20 RHD, DLA-8

Ancient Gold Dragon, 35 RHD: Did I already mention how Gold dragons get all the good stuff? I did? Well I'll say it again. Only dragon with an 8th level SLA (more than what it can cast naturally with its sorcerer levels), and yet another full stat increase. I suggest a pretty average 22 RHD and DLA-8


Have you read the 2nd edition Draconomicon? It's very interesting in that, more than any 3.x book I know, it deals with the origin and history of dragons. It says that dragons in the ancient times were not intelligent and were little more than winged lizards. I believe it's a reference to dinosaurs in our world, and maybe to the fact that dinosaurs in japanese is Kyoryu, or "terrifying dragons". Then a meteorite fell (one of the Tears of Selune) and most pre-dragons went extinct. The remaining ones were forced to rapidly evolve, to become more intelligent and more magical to face the year-long winter. Dragons existing before true dragons, and their descendants, like wyvern (in short, everything that would be in the Dragon type in 3.5), were called "dracoforms". I know it's less appealing than "dragons", but we would have a fair bit more understandable rule text if they had kept the appellation (*cough* dragonwrought *cough*).

[Beni-Kujaku]

Nota Bene: I have edited the "Old" and "Very Old" dragons entries for the Gold Dragon. I didn't take into account how crazily strong Geas as an SLA is. Spell-Like abilities have a casting time of a standard action at most, which, for Geas, is extremely good. It literally becomes a 1/day Dominate Monster with no save. If the opponent doesn't have a good enough SR (and in DNLA's case, it will be very hard to have a good enough SR) or is immune to mind-affecting effects (which, apart from undead and constructs, even though you can find a few at these levels, do not exist in every fight), that's one fight per day completely bypassed. And you get a slave. That's, in my opinion, strong enough to warrant a RHD increase.

[H_H_F_F]

Nota Bene: I have edited the "Old" and "Very Old" dragons entries for the Gold Dragon. I didn't take into account how crazily strong Geas as an SLA is. Spell-Like abilities have a casting time of a standard action at most, which, for Geas, is extremely good. It literally becomes a 1/day Dominate Monster with no save. If the opponent doesn't have a good enough SR (and in DNLA's case, it will be very hard to have a good enough SR) or is immune to mind-affecting effects (which, apart from undead and constructs, even though you can find a few at these levels, do not exist in every fight), that's one fight per day completely bypassed. And you get a slave. That's, in my opinion, strong enough to warrant a RHD increase.

I was very proud of being able to cast geas as a swift action when under Tenser's Transformation with Faderyn, my enfry for round CVII. I tend to agree that this ability is important enough to reconsider the rating.

Also, I've been meaning to say: you've been really on point with the art for the dragon posts.

[Metastachydium]

Ancient Red Dragon, 34 RHD: Not enough stat bonuses to really stand out compared to what Silver has more than it (notably, Silver's excellent breath weapon). Find the Path is fun as an SLA, but it won't change your life except if the scenario is specifically about finding your way in a maze. It's interesting to see how the most violent and combat-oriented of all chromatic dragons mostly has divination SLAs. I guess it prefers to find more gold than sow destruction.

And, ahm, the verdict is?

[Beni-Kujaku]

I was very proud of being able to cast geas as a swift action when under Tenser's Transformation with Faderyn, my enfry for round CVII. I tend to agree that this ability is important enough to reconsider the rating.

I just read it, it's a very nice build that combines lots of strong things into something even better, and even uses Tenser's Transformation, which is quite unheard of. Too bad that the build didn't flow that well together, and that the other builds of the comp were this good.

Also, I've been meaning to say: you've been really on point with the art for the dragon posts.

Thank you! Pictures of dragons that are both good-looking and could look like they represent dragons from D&D are not that common, especially if you're looking for metallic dragons. The V-shaped wings of metallic dragons except Bronze is very specific to D&D, which makes it pretty difficult to find and is why you'll not see any Copper, Brass or Silver-like dragons in these. Initially I wanted to put at least one picture from "How to train your dragon", since my second favorite dragon-quote (the "we are all, in a sense, supper" quote. My absolute favorite being of course the Smaug boast from the Hobbit) is from the book the movie is based on, but dragons in it are either Small to Large (and I was already at Young Adults when I had the idea) or Colossal+++, which is very un-D&D-like. In the end, I do like these ones, they're a good mix of epic, wholesome and goofy (especially the Very Old one, whose meaning is completely different when you apply D&D lore to it, and changes from nice and wholesome to sad and a bit ridiculous).

And, ahm, the verdict is?

Oh, yeah, forgot. Same as Silver, 20 RHD, DLA-8.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Wyrms

"By my standards, those wizards trying their best to emulate my blazing aeronautic greatness are a dismal failure. But, I appreciate their effort and their taste." - A hybrid blue/red wyrm having spent his long life dominating an entire Plane to the point that he is now revered as the sole keeper of the peace on it.



A Gold Wyrm spends so much time studying the inner workings and secrets of the world that they are probably the only creature that could hold their own in an argument on this forum.


What is left to do when you have everything? When you know everything there is to know about the Material Plane, have explored half of it yourself and sent your thralls to report about the other half, when your hoard is too big to fit in even the grandest castle and no greedy adventurer can even last 6 seconds against your unfathomable power, then the bggest threat remaining is not death. It's ennui, and becoming so bored of everything that you fall into madness. It's not rare for wyrms to spend their time hibernating for years at a time, or pushing "mortals" of the countries under their influence to go to war against each other, just for the thrill of seeing what side would win. Others research niche pieces of knowledge and ancient, outdated rituals, just for the sake of it. Some dragons who can planeshift (namely, red dragons and metallic ones) spend most of their time in outer planes to feel like they are contributing to the endless conficts against the forces of Evil, but most of them stay in the Material Plane. Denizens of the Material Plane simply don't belong there, and even wyrms know that there is a chance for them to die out there. Mount Celestia isn't a good vacation place when you can't pass the challenges to climb the moutain and you risk being swarmed by paladin angels at the first misstep.

If a wyrm confronts you, know that it's probably not a fight for it. Nothing more than a game. Just play with it for a few minutes. If it is amused enough, you'll be able to just go away.

As player characters, wyrms get a huge boost to their DR, going from 15/+2 to 20/+3! Most people carry weapons with a +2 enhancement bonus, but +3 becomes such a big investment that there won't be too many things that bypass your.... What? We're in 3.5 and the DR is only 20/Magic? So anyone has been able to bypass it for more than 15 levels? Okay. Well, then the only thing dragons get is even more AC, some stats, 8th level spells for metallics, 5th level spells for White, and a new size category for a few of them, notably Gold becoming Colossal. Overall not a bad age category (especially 8th level spells). But how does it hold up to epic or near-epic challenges? Let's see.

White Wyrm, 33 RHD: Okay, so, +24 Str, +14 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha, +32 Natural armor, these stats are low, even for true drag.... Wait... They once again reduced its intelligence compared to its charisma!?? WHY? Stop it! Let the guy have something! It makes even less sense considering it will once again have the same score in intelligence and charisma as a great wyrm! These dragon ability scores are starting to physically hurt me when I read them... White still gets a decent amount of stats, and its sorcerer casting would now be almost appropriate for a half-casting class. Plus, it's gargantuan. And everybody wants to be bigger (except if your lease has a low ceiling, I guess). A pretty strong 17 RHD in my book. And maybe DLA-11? Yeah, let's go with that.

Brass Wyrm, 34 RHD: The most magic-oriented dragon in the MM doesn't disappoint as a Wyrm. It reaches the +10 Int/Wis/Cha milestone, is one small level away from getting 9th level spells, is Gargantuan too and still has the nigh-impassable AC of true dragons. A weak 22 RHD, and DLA-8. At this point, the difference between your sorcerer level and your number of RHD is pretty constant.

Black Wyrm, 34 RHD: As litterally always, it's a bit better than White, but the only worthwhile thing is 2 more sorcerer levels. Pretty strong 18 RHD, DLA-10.

Copper Wyrm, 35 RHD: Copper is worse than Brass. At this point, a few mental stats don't make for worse mobility. 22 RHD, DLA-9.

Green Wyrm, 35 RHD: Do you like sorcerer levels? Then you should play a metallic dragon. But still, 15th level is nice. The rest is nothing to write about, but spellcasting is such a part of your gameplay now that I can't give it less than 20 RHD, and DLA-10. I really don't know which is better between that and an Ancient Copper.

Bronze Wyrm, 36 RHD: Good stats, good sorcerer casting. Nothing to hate, but I would have liked a bit more to love. 22 RHD, DLA-9

Blue Wyrm, 36 RHD: I just noticed I haven't made a Cyrano de Bergerac joke on Blue's nose horn. Oh, well, look it up. Nothing new, same as Green, with worse SLAs. A strong 20 RHD, DLA-11.

Silver Wyrm, 37 RHD: I sometimes forget this thing can walk on clouds. I never understood why, since it can fly faster than it can walk since wyrmling stage. Same as Bronze, with better breath weapon, and better stats. Surprisingly (or not, considering how dragon stats seem to have been rolled randomly during WotC meetings), it gets +4 Con compared to Ancient Silver. Yep. The single one and only age category of all Monster Manual true dragons that get +4 Con. And they waited Wyrm for it. I hate it. Have some consistency in your own books dammit! Pretty weak 23 RHD, and DLA-9.

Red Wyrm, 37 RHD: On the other hand, Red gets one of the worst stats increase of their life. +2 Str and +2 Con. And still Gargantuan. Even though it became Gargantuan two age categories before Silver, Red will have to wait Great Wyrm before becoming Colossal. That's sad. 22 RHD, DLA-10.

Gold Wyrm, 38 RHD: And the king returns! For the first time, Gold is bigger than Red, and reaches Colossal status! You now have so much reach that a dwarf can start their turn in your threatened area and still not be able to reach you with a move action. Your claws also deal 4d6 damage, which is pretty rare, but won't matter at all at these levels. As is now usual, Gold gets a full ability boost, and 17th sorcerer levels will never be irrelevant. 24 RHD, DLA-9


We can see that the endgame is close, and that this part of the game wasn't proofread too much. The stats are so chaotic that it becomes frustrating, and the DR was obviously not thought through. Still, the fact that they're called "wyrms" instead of "xxx dragons" is a nice way to artificially create some tension and awe when players encounter one of those. That's a trend with WotC. Everything is good, except the mechanics. Next time, dragons reach the absolute climax of their power, with Great Wyrm! And White will still be nonepic.

[dhasenan]

Blue Wyrm, 36 RHD: I just noticed I haven't made a Cyrano de Bergerac joke on Blue's nose horn. Oh, well, look it up.

fails charisma check

Excuse me! Sir, your nose... your nose is... rather large!

[Beni-Kujaku]

Great Wyrm

In the sky, the wings of the great old dragon beat above the sea. The sky was filled with his flight. The light of the sun, now high in the sky, passed through the arabesques of his wings. His golden eyes met the blue eyes of the elf boy. All the tenderness in the world lay in these eyes, and all the pride, all the possible love, all the strength and arrogance. All the magnificence.
Magnificence.
Magnificence.
Magnificence.
Magnificence.
Magnificence.
- The last flight of the only fictional dragon I know of who actually died of old age (Seriously, read The Last Elf, by Silvana Mari. If you have a child or a brother between 8 and 14 years old, or are yourself in this range, then this is a really good read, both wholesome and with a psychological side. In my opinion a pretty good Christmas gift. Initially italian, but translated in english, french, german, portuguese,... and called The Last Dragon in the US, and only in the US. Because why the hell not.)

Spoiler: To sing to the tune of "Great War", by Sabaton, link in the title of the post

Show

Before their might I'm paralyzed, my brothers are all gone
I'll submit or I'll die here in this nameless grave
Wisdom, knowledge, infinite strength, I feel them in my bones
Claws and wings in the beast's den, there's nothing I could save...

Where are the riches I’ve been told?
This is the lies that we been sold,
Their hoard's not worth our sacrifice!

Great Wyrm!
And I cannot stand firm!
Great Wyrm!
Burnt by their breath weapon!
They'll rule from their lair
Until they reach their...
Twilight!
End of a dragon's life!

(feel free to continue with the second and third verses)

So this is the end. Even creatures as long-lived as a true dragon eventually reach their time to go. The only time of their life where they grow weaker rather than stronger. During these years or these decades, the dragon knows full well they are about to die. Only one thing matters, then: their legacy. If they're going, then the world will remember them for generations. Metallic dragons create great institutions and schools where they teach all their knowledge to mortals or to other dragons, and use their hoard and magical might to save entire countries from natural disasters, topple tyrannies and annihilate armies of rampaging demons. Chromatic dragons try to get as much enjoyment as they can, with no limit or self-preservation, they seek the most powerful foes to fight to the death, devastate continents in their wake, and challenge their greatest dragon rivals to battles akin to the worst typhoons that have ever scorched the earth. Other dragons travel the planes without fear, to have a first taste of their eternal home, or to meet Tiamat or Bahamut in flesh. Those great wyrms often disappear without a trace, and no one knows what the dragon gods do to them.
If you find a typical great wyrm, then distract them with something shiny, and you should be off the hook. But if you encounter a dragon in their twilight, there is no running away. Stand your ground, make sure you have a couple diamonds prepared for your resurrection, and give them the fight they crave. This is the chance for your name to go down in history as one of the heroes who fought against such a terrible creature.

For their last age category, six great wyrms out of ten finally reach sorcerer level 19th, which allows them to cast 9th level spells on their own. The inherent power of these can absolutely not be overstated. True dragons also get their final SLA. A lot of these are great spells, but when most dragons are casting 9th-level spells natively, everything leaves a bit to be desired. Only Red and Silver get a new size category, meeting Gold in the very select group of Colossal dragons, and generally chromatics get some good ability boosts while metallics don't (except Silver and Gold).

Great White Wyrm, 36 RHD: Do you wanna laugh (or cry)? That breath weapon deals less damage than that of a Juvenile gold dragon. Still, when you have more strength than a cloud giant on top of at least 13th level casting and all the dragon goodies that come with it, you're bound to be worth something. As always, White gets surprisingly nice SLAs. Control Weather will not change your life, but it is a nice utility to have, especially in winter with Icewalking. Compared to a Black Wyrm, it has +2 Str, Con and NA, better movement speeds and way better SLAs. I believe that's worth going to the next number of RHD. A slightly weak 19 RHD, and DLA-12.

Great Brass Wyrm, 37 RHD: 9th level spells. Just... Just Shapechange 4/day. Or Gate. Or Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Or Miracle if you took Lightbringer or no archetype. That's just as insanely good for you as for anyone else. You also get the ability to (seemingly at-will, but there's a 99% chance that they just forgot the 1/day) summon a djinni. Nice. That's free permanent Major Creation. Create infinite amounts of Black Lotus Extract and break the economy! Oh, wait, you're epic, the economy would already be broken if you wanted to do that. (Can you Major Create some epic poisons if you can make the DC but don't have the Epic Poison Crafter feat? The Lyzeum seems very vegetal to me) Despite the lack of good stats, it's an extremely good age category for Brass. A strong 24 RHD, would maybe even be 25 RHD if your djinnis could planeshift. And DLA-9

Great Black Wyrm, 37 RHD: Can somebody explain to me why a Great Wyrm gets an overly restrictive version of a 5th level spell, that is even described as equivalent to a 1st level spell (with DC to boot)? I know Black has never gotten good SLAs, but this is just ridiculous. At least you get a full stat increase and 7th level spells. 20 RHD, DLA-12

Great Copper Wyrm, 38 RHD: And we continue with Copper proving that you'd better play a brass dragon. Move Earth is interesting as an SLA since you can affect the full area of effect with only a standard action casting, but even then, I fail to see in what condition this spell can be of any use to an adventurer. Really, what does it do? Not even counting the fact that you're supposed to face epic threat, the worst this spell can do is create a 10-ft high wall before your opponents, which is... Not absolutely bad, but clearly not worth a 6th level spell, and completely useless for a Great Copper Wyrm. Oh, and you gain no mental stats. Weak 24 RHD, DLA-10.

Great Green Wyrm, 38 RHD: Old Green got Plant Growth, Ancient Green got Dominate Person. How do we combine those to create the ultimate SLA for the Great Green Wyrm? That's right, Command Plant, a situational and weak 4th level spell. Get outta here. At least you get nice stats. You're comparable to a Brass Wyrm, with better stats but worse SLAs. Weak 22 RHD, and DLA-12

Great Bronze Wyrm, 39 RHD: These stats are really stellar. They've been for some time now, but still, that's always beautiful to look at. Apart from them, it's just a djinni-less Brass, but when your worst stat (not counting Dex) is only 2 points lower than a Solar's best, I think that's enough for 25 RHD, and DLA-9

Great Blue Wyrm, 39 RHD: Another SLA three levels below what you natively cast, and just enough difference to not get copyright-struck by Green. 23 RHD, DLA-12

Great Silver Wyrm, 40 RHD: 40 RHD is a milestone few creatures ever reach, and if Silver would be completely unplayable at that ECL, it still has got a lot of nice things. Full stat increase, Colossal size, 19th level casting, and the interesting Reverse Gravity SLA. Compared to Bronze, that's +4 to all stats and better SLAs. 26 RHD should be interesting, even if I fear Silver will be slightly underpowered. And DLA-10 to go with it.

Great Red Wyrm, 40 RHD: Another Colossal dragon, but clearly weaker than Silver, with the mental stats of Bronze. Once again, Red gets a divination SLA, Discern Location. Really good one, for sure, and useful in a variety of situation, but not good enough to change Red's rating on its own. Better physical stats and size than Bronze and better SLAs, but worse breath weapon and movement speed. Let's go for 25 RHD and DLA-10.

Great Gold Wyrm, 41 RHD: Of course Gold would be the only one with a 9th level spell as an SLA. Foresight is a really fun spell to have in a dungeon or otherwise dangerous environment, to avoid any ambush and unexpected surprise rounds. That's the kind of spell you would like as a 3/day instead of 1/day. Also, look at that strength score. The Great Gold Wyrm is the strongest of all MM dragons, and one of the strongest creatures in the game period. More strength than the Tarrasque, more than an Elder Titan, and only 2 points less than the avatar of Tiamat herself. And the rest of its stats do not lag behind, with +22 to all non-Dexterity stats. I suggest a final score of 27 RHD for the Gold Dragon, with DLA-9.


And... That's it. All the true dragons of the monster manual given negative LA. Almost as many as all the other creatures of this thread. That was a journey, and I love dragons and dislike WotC's editors even more after it's finished ^^ And now, as the dragons reach their twilight and wither away, so too will we turn away from power and look into more mundane creatures. Starting next week, to really wrap up the Monster Manual, we will review the animals and vermins. As always, I look forward to your comments, and see you then!

[Remuko]

Great Wyrm

In the sky, the wings of the great old dragon beat above the sea. The sky was filled with his flight. The light of the sun, now high in the sky, passed through the arabesques of his wings. His golden eyes met the blue eyes of the elf boy. All the tenderness in the world lay in these eyes, and all the pride, all the possible love, all the strength and arrogance. All the magnificence.
Magnificence.
Magnificence.
Magnificence.
Magnificence.
Magnificence.
- The last flight of the only fictional dragon I know of who actually died of old age (Seriously, read The Last Elf, by Silvana Mari. If you have a child or a brother between 8 and 14 years old, or are yourself in this range, then this is a really good read, both wholesome and with a psychological side. In my opinion a pretty good Christmas gift. Initially italian, but translated in english, french, german, portuguese,... and called The Last Dragon in the US, and only in the US. Because why the hell not.)

Spoiler: To sing to the tune of "Great War", by Sabaton, link in the title of the post

Show

Before their might I'm paralyzed, my brothers are all gone
I'll submit or I'll die here in this nameless grave
Wisdom, knowledge, infinite strength, I feel them in my bones
Claws and wings in the beast's den, there's nothing I could save...

Where are the riches I’ve been told?
This is the lies that we been sold,
Their hoard's not worth our sacrifice!

Great Wyrm!
And I cannot stand firm!
Great Wyrm!
Burnt by their breath weapon!
They'll rule from their lair
Until they reach their...
Twilight!
End of a dragon's life!

(feel free to continue with the second and third verses)

So this is the end. Even creatures as long-lived as a true dragon eventually reach their time to go. The only time of their life where they grow weaker rather than stronger. During these years or these decades, the dragon knows full well they are about to die. Only one thing matters, then: their legacy. If they're going, then the world will remember them for generations. Metallic dragons create great institutions and schools where they teach all their knowledge to mortals or to other dragons, and use their hoard and magical might to save entire countries from natural disasters, topple tyrannies and annihilate armies of rampaging demons. Chromatic dragons try to get as much enjoyment as they can, with no limit or self-preservation, they seek the most powerful foes to fight to the death, devastate continents in their wake, and challenge their greatest dragon rivals to battles akin to the worst typhoons that have ever scorched the earth. Other dragons travel the planes without fear, to have a first taste of their eternal home, or to meet Tiamat or Bahamut in flesh. Those great wyrms often disappear without a trace, and no one knows what the dragon gods do to them.
If you find a typical great wyrm, then distract them with something shiny, and you should be off the hook. But if you encounter a dragon in their twilight, there is no running away. Stand your ground, make sure you have a couple diamonds prepared for your resurrection, and give them the fight they crave. This is the chance for your name to go down in history as one of the heroes who fought against such a terrible creature.

For their last age category, six great wyrms out of ten finally reach sorcerer level 19th, which allows them to cast 9th level spells on their own. The inherent power of these can absolutely not be overstated. True dragons also get their final SLA. A lot of these are great spells, but when most dragons are casting 9th-level spells natively, everything leaves a bit to be desired. Only Red and Silver get a new size category, meeting Gold in the very select group of Colossal dragons, and generally chromatics get some good ability boosts while metallics don't (except Silver and Gold).

Great White Wyrm, 36 RHD: Do you wanna laugh (or cry)? That breath weapon deals less damage than that of a Juvenile gold dragon. Still, when you have more strength than a cloud giant on top of at least 13th level casting and all the dragon goodies that come with it, you're bound to be worth something. As always, White gets surprisingly nice SLAs. Control Weather will not change your life, but it is a nice utility to have, especially in winter with Icewalking. Compared to a Black Wyrm, it has +2 Str, Con and NA, better movement speeds and way better SLAs. I believe that's worth going to the next number of RHD. A slightly weak 19 RHD, and DLA-12.

Great Brass Wyrm, 37 RHD: 9th level spells. Just... Just Shapechange 4/day. Or Gate. Or Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Or Miracle if you took Lightbringer or no archetype. That's just as insanely good for you as for anyone else. You also get the ability to (seemingly at-will, but there's a 99% chance that they just forgot the 1/day) summon a djinni. Nice. That's free permanent Major Creation. Create infinite amounts of Black Lotus Extract and break the economy! Oh, wait, you're epic, the economy would already be broken if you wanted to do that. (Can you Major Create some epic poisons if you can make the DC but don't have the Epic Poison Crafter feat? The Lyzeum seems very vegetal to me) Despite the lack of good stats, it's an extremely good age category for Brass. A strong 24 RHD, would maybe even be 25 RHD if your djinnis could planeshift. And DLA-9

Great Black Wyrm, 37 RHD: Can somebody explain to me why a Great Wyrm gets an overly restrictive version of a 5th level spell, that is even described as equivalent to a 1st level spell (with DC to boot)? I know Black has never gotten good SLAs, but this is just ridiculous. At least you get a full stat increase and 7th level spells. 20 RHD, DLA-12

Great Copper Wyrm, 38 RHD: And we continue with Copper proving that you'd better play a brass dragon. Move Earth is interesting as an SLA since you can affect the full area of effect with only a standard action casting, but even then, I fail to see in what condition this spell can be of any use to an adventurer. Really, what does it do? Not even counting the fact that you're supposed to face epic threat, the worst this spell can do is create a 10-ft high wall before your opponents, which is... Not absolutely bad, but clearly not worth a 6th level spell, and completely useless for a Great Copper Wyrm. Oh, and you gain no mental stats. Weak 24 RHD, DLA-10.

Great Green Wyrm, 38 RHD: Old Green got Plant Growth, Ancient Green got Dominate Person. How do we combine those to create the ultimate SLA for the Great Green Wyrm? That's right, Command Plant, a situational and weak 4th level spell. Get outta here. At least you get nice stats. You're comparable to a Brass Wyrm, with better stats but worse SLAs. Weak 22 RHD, and DLA-12

Great Bronze Wyrm, 39 RHD: These stats are really stellar. They've been for some time now, but still, that's always beautiful to look at. Apart from them, it's just a djinni-less Brass, but when your worst stat (not counting Dex) is only 2 points lower than a Solar's best, I think that's enough for 25 RHD, and DLA-9

Great Blue Wyrm, 39 RHD: Another SLA three levels below what you natively cast, and just enough difference to not get copyright-struck by White. 22 RHD, DLA-12

Great Silver Wyrm, 40 RHD: 40 RHD is a milestone few creatures ever reach, and if Silver would be completely unplayable at that ECL, it still has got a lot of nice things. Full stat increase, Colossal size, 19th level casting, and the interesting Reverse Gravity SLA. Compared to Bronze, that's +4 to all stats and better SLAs. 26 RHD should be interesting, even if I fear Silver will be slightly underpowered. And DLA-10 to go with it.

Great Red Wyrm, 40 RHD: Another Colossal dragon, but clearly weaker than Silver, with the mental stats of Bronze. Once again, Red gets a divination SLA, Discern Location. Really good one, for sure, and useful in a variety of situation, but not good enough to change Red's rating on its own. Better physical stats and size than Bronze and better SLAs, but worse breath weapon and movement speed. Let's go for 25 RHD and DLA-10.

Great Gold Wyrm, 41 RHD: Of course Gold would be the only one with a 9th level spell as an SLA. Foresight is a really fun spell to have in a dungeon or otherwise dangerous environment, to avoid any ambush and unexpected surprise rounds. That's the kind of spell you would like as a 3/day instead of 1/day. Also, look at that strength score. The Great Gold Wyrm is the strongest of all MM dragons, and one of the strongest creatures in the game period. More strength than the Tarrasque, more than an Elder Titan, and only 2 points less than the avatar of Tiamat herself. And the rest of its stats do not lag behind, with +22 to all non-Dexterity stats. I suggest a final score of 27 RHD for the Gold Dragon, with DLA-9.


And... That's it. All the true dragons of the monster manual given negative LA. Almost as many as all the other creatures of this thread. That was a journey, and I love dragons and dislike WotC's editors even more after it's finished ^^ And now, as the dragons reach their twilight and wither away, so too will we turn away from power and look into more mundane creatures. Starting next week, to really wrap up the Monster Manual, we will review the animals and vermins. As always, I look forward to your comments, and see you then!

good stuff

[H_H_F_F]

Congrats on finishing the dragons, Beni!

Spoiler: Raymond E Feist's Magician

Show

Rhuagh, the golden dragon met by Thomas in the caves, also dies of old age.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I haven't read the Riftwar Saga. Is it any good?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Animals (Bear to Hyena)

I'm impressed by the fact that WotC included a short description for every animal, even though I think they could have used that space for something else. Why should we be reminded of what a regular badger looks like but still not know for sure how tendriculoses (tendriculi?) came to be?

Animals have a few shared characteristics. They all have low HD and pretty good physical stats, which can make them pretty attractive as player characters, but this is balanced by abysmally low intelligence (shot up to 3 for the purpose of this thread, but that's still -8 for a player character), lowish charisma, an inability to wield weapons (at least, for all the animals that got -0 in the original thread), and even no primary natural weapon for a few of them (generally not-predator ones. For these ones, at least a level of monk or battle dancer will be required to be able to contribute in battle). Still, a lot of animals got positive LA in the original thread, and I'm only reviewing the bad ones here.

Brown Bear, 6 RHD: And we start with the quintessential animal, the Brown Bear, and its absolutely massive +16 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, but -8 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha. All of you barbarians enjoyers should know these stats adjustments as those you get from a 5th level bear warrior (a generally excellent melee class). You also get Large size, and Improved Grab on your claw attack. 2 claw attacks, one bite attack. That is a chonky piece of meat we've got there. Compared to a raging Dire Wolverine, you have -4 Dex, Con and Cha, the equivalent of +3 natural armor, Improved Grab, +10ft movement speed and the ability to use spells (what? a brown bear cleric isn't that far-fetched) and to run away without a Calm Emotions spell (which may or may not be a life-saver in some situations). That seems even, with a slight advantage for the Brown Bear. 5 RHD, DLA-0 (the 6 RHD gives it a point of BAB, which could make it overpowered for its level).

Polar Bear, 8 RHD: So is the number of RHD just the amount of fat on the creature? Since a polar bear is just a brown bear adapted to cold temperature (the hybrid, named grolar, from grizzly+polar bear, is even fertile and there is a chance both species will become one in the next centuries or millenia, since the global warming makes more and more polar bear go south and mate with brown bears instead of their own kind). The only difference between the two, besides the number of RHD, is that the polar bear has a 30ft swim speed. No, that doesn't make for a higher number of RHD. 5 RHD, DLA-1

Bison, 5 RHD: Gore is a pretty rare form of natural weapon. Aside from that, the bison has nothing. Reachless Large size, no useable ability, only one natural weapon and less strength than a brown bear. Not good. A strong 2 RHD should fit it, and DLA-1. DLA-2 may even be good, but having +12 Str and full BAB is definitely too much for low levels. Stampede is an interesting ability, in that it allows us to calculate how much damage Mufasa took in that one scene of the Lion King (if we're assimilating wildebeests to bison, which does not seem too far-fetched, also wildebeest is definitely a name I would put on a D&D creature rather than a real animal). 30 seconds pass from the first to the last wildebeest going down the cliff (shown here) with 94 wildebeests being visible after the first 4 seconds of the stampede. That is around 24 gnus per second, and 720 for the whole stampede. Mufasa took 144d12 damage, or around 25 times his max health. I'm suprised there even remains a corpse for Simba to mourn.

Boar, 3 RHD: Same problems as the bison, but -8 Str and Medium size. If it wasn't for this nice natural armor, 1 RHD would be good. As it is, I can't give anything else than the PPsyco rating, 1 RHD, LA+1. I'm sure there's a way to leverage Ferocity, but I really don't see it. Also, DLA-1. No problem giving that thing full BAB.

Giant Crocodile, 7 RHD: Damn that's a strong bite. The Giant Crocodile lives up to its reputation as the real-life animal with the strongest bite, bar none. A crocodile's bite has been estimated as rivaling even a T-Rex's. Sad that there's nothing else here and that it can't even combine it with the tail slap, except when it has somebody grappled. Apart from the Huge size and the natural weapons, the stats are almost identical to the polar bear's, with -4 Cha and -20ft land movement speed. I'm really not sure why this was initially rated as +0, because I'm not playing that. I guess the Huge size balances the lack of full attack options and the lower speed outside water. 5 RHD, DLA-1

Riding Dog, 2 RHD: Better stats than the boar with notably +4 Dex, slightly worse natural armor, but a bite that can eventually be used for a mouthpick weapon. Also, Track as a bonus feat. Nice. 1 RHD, LA+1, DLA-0

Donkey, 2 RHD: Worse stats than the boar with no Str bonus, much worse natural armor, and a weak bite that will be useless until you can afford a mouthpick weapon. And no bonus feat. 1 RHD, DLA-1, and it will probably still be underpowered.

Elephant, 11 RHD: It is stronger than a brown bear, yes, but so slightly that I don't think it will make much of a difference. Compared to a brown bear, the elephant is Huge, has +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 natural armor, different natural weapons that won't matter much except if you wanted a mouthpick weapon, and Trample (with a really nice DC thanks to your strength) instead of Improved Grab. All in all, I'm comfortable with 7 RHD and DLA-2, maybe DLA-3. The Indian variant has -2 Str and +2 Wis. Is that a reference to the fact that elephants are sacred in India, to let them take a few levels of cleric without too much problem? It wouldn't surprise me. Anyway, no change for the Indian elephant.

Heavy Horse, 3 RHD: And we have the four kinds of horses, all with varying levels of LA-0. They're all really fast, with a 50ft land speed for the heavy ones and 60ft for the light ones, but have pretty bad ability scores and above all horrendous natural weapons. The heavy horse has two hooves, which are secondary weapons, and aren't fit for mouthpick. That is awful. You can almost already include your first level as monk already. At least Large size may make it worth 1 RHD, LA+1 and DLA-1

Light Horse, 3 RHD: The same, with less Str and 60ft movement speed. 1 RHD, LA+1 and DLA-1

Heavy Warhorse, 4 RHD: +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 natural armor, and trained hooves and bite! Surely that would be worth something! Except I probably still would take a bison over that. 2 RHD, DLA-1

Light Warhorse, 3 RHD: The same, with less Str and 60ft movement speed. 2 RHD, DLA-1

Hyena, 2 RHD: As Inevitability mentioned, the same as riding dogs with no track, 2 natural armor less, but +10ft movement speed. 1 RHD, LA+1, DLA-0

Well, that went quick. The fact that almost all animals are variations of each other makes them pretty easy to rate. We'll continue with those next time.

[H_H_F_F]

I haven't read the Riftwar Saga. Is it any good?

Like many books from the time, it's pretty trope-heavy and the dialogue&character work is lacking IMO, but it's worth reading. The stories and worldbuilding are good, and there's a strange sense timelessnes to the writing and pacing which makes itvvery engaging, in my opinion.

It's not my favorite series ever or anything, but if you have the free time and energy to put into it, I'd say it's worth a read. Can't comment on the following series in the cycle - only the Saga was translated to Hebrew, and though I have a few of the sequels in English I haven't made the time for them yet.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Animals (Lizard to Shark)

More pets, yeah! Why be a human who turns into a bear with a bear who summons bears, when you can be a bear who turns into a bear with a bear who summons bears!?

Lizard, 1/2 RHD: And we start off with possibly the weakest animal stat-wise. -8 Str, +4 Dex, -8 Int, +2 Wis, -8 Cha. You are also Tiny, which means even lifting your equipment will be a challenge, and only have a weak bite as your natural weapon. 20ft movement speed on land and climb is bad, but not awful, and you have +8 on Balance checks due to your feet having an adherent surface. As always with bad creatures with low RHD, no RHDR, and I think these stats are bad enough to warrant a DLA-1 here.

Monitor lizard, 3 RHD: Or, as I like to call them, venomless komodo dragons. Because no one will play this except for the thrill of being able to call themselves a dragon. Medium size, decent stats (+6 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con), only one bite attack, no ability. Overall slightly worse than the riding dog. 1 RHD, LA+1, DLA-1

Manta Ray, 4 RHD: What is with over-RHD-ing every aquatic creature? Anyway, nevermind the number of RHD, this thing is unplayable. +4 Str, +2 Wis, -8 Int, -8 Cha, can't breath outside water, very disadvantageous body shape (do these "wings" count as arms? Can it wear a belt? A shirt?), and a unique natural weapon that highlights the fact that a manta ray is absolutely not adapted for fighting creatures remotely close to its size. A ram. Secondary. Not even a slam, the manta just bumps its opponent. 1 RHD, but probably still unplayable, and DLA-3 (all this extra HP should make the difference at low level).

Mule, 3 RHD: A heavy horse with +2 Con, primary hooves, but -20ft movement speed. 1 RHD, LA+1, DLA-1

Giant Octopus, 8 RHD: Yep, that would be much better as an anthropomorphic animal. Who decided to put 8 RHD on this!? The giant octopus almost doesn't feel like an animal, with the number of natural attacks it gets (9! That's a lot!) and the actual special abilities: Improved Grab/Constrict (very nice with 8 tentacles); and the same ink cloud and jet as the kraken. Really a pleasant surprise for an animal. +10 Str caps off the good grappling chassis, but the rest of stats are pretty lacking for its HD: +4 Dex, +2 Con (very low for a Large creature), -8 Int, +2 Wis, -8 Cha. Also, +7 natural armor. Average value, but still appreciated. If only it had better movement speed, it would be a melee monster, with 8 20ft-reach attacks. Still, this is a barbarian with every fiber of its being. 6 RHD, DLA-1

Pony, 2 RHD: You liked the horse, you'll love its bite-sized cousin. +2 Str, Dex, Con, -8 Int, -6 Cha, secondary hooves, +2 natural armor. 1 RHD, DLA-1

War Pony, 2 RHD: A thousand of the more brawly episodes of My Little Pony come to mind when reading this name. Compared to the regular pony, +2 Str and Con, and primary hooves. No difference. 1 RHD, DLA-1

Porpoise, 2 RHD: Did I read that right? Blindsight 120ft? That's great! And even though you can't move on land, you have an 80ft swim speed. Sadly, no meaningful natural weapon, pitiful stats aside from +6 Dex, and an impossibility to move on land. 1 RHD, LA+1, DLA-0

Rhinoceros, 8 RHD: Big, armored and over-RHD'd. Well, not so armored (+7 natural armor is kind of average), but +16 Str and +10 Con are good. Shame that you only have one natural weapon, that it isn't a bite or a tail, and that Powerful Charge can't be combined with ubercharging (or any kind of charging really, since it sets your damage to a fixed, albeit pretty high, amount). Clearly worse than a brown bear. 4 RHD, DLA-2

Shark: Stop. Giving. So. Many. HD. To. Aquatic. Creatures! Or at least give them decent stats to boot? Or original abilities? Base yourself on the giant octopus, not on... Sharks. How did they even live through hundreds of millions of years like that?
Medium, 3 RHD: +2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, -8 Int. One bite, blindsense, decent swim speed. I see nothing that would make this even remotely overpowered with 1 RHD. Maybe a bit strong, but nothing insurmountable. And DLA-1. It's not bad enough to have 2 BAB at ECL 1.
Large, 7 RHD: Yeah, of course, +4 Str, +1 natural armor and Large size is worth +4 RHD. Except not. 3 RHD, DLA-2
Huge, 10 RHD: Bigger is not always better (I can't wait for vermins, that will be great, prepare for DNLA in the 20s). Same increases as from Medium to Large. 4 RHD, DLA-4


Well, I thought we could finish it today, but it appears almost all the animals in the latter part of the alphabet are extremely bad, and there are 5 different types of snakes in there. It's starting to be late in my time zone, so see you next time for the (real) end of the animals.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Reminder for those of you that want to play an octopus-like monster: the feats Scorpion's Grasp and (Greater) Multigrab are your best friends. Unlike Improved Grab, Scorpion's Grasp moves you into their space for free instead of dragging them into yours for free. Utilize the one-limbed grappling rules to drag yourself around the battlefield as part of your full attack, with (Greater) Multigrab to reduce the penalty, while also locking down each opponent you hit and dragging them along for the ride.

I'm waffling back and forth on whether the shark is too strong for 1 RHD. I guess the poor body shape (on top of terrible Int/Cha) is probably enough to compensate for otherwise good stats and blindsense.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Animals (Snakes to Wolf)

No more delay! Today, we finish the animals! Today we have even more suboptimal creatures! And today we rate them!!

Contrictor snake, 3 RHD: A python or a boa, this is a Medium-sized grappler (see the problem already?) with no manipulator. At least you get +6 Str and Dex, and +2 natural armor, along with a weak bite with Improved Grab and Constrict. You are pretty slow, but can climb and swim, which is at least interesting. All in all, I feel like that makes for a worthy 1 RHD, LA+1, with DLA-1.

Giant constrictor snake, 11 RHD: This must be a Titanoboa, the biggest constrictor snake to ever crawl the earth, with 14 meters long. Huge size and +14 Str is very good for a grappler, but 11 RHD kill its viability completely. This is most probably worse than the giant octopus, 4 Str and one size category do not amount for having 8 natural attacks less, and since you really have nothing apart from your grappling abilities, I think 4 RHD would be good. DLA-4 gives it one more BAB than its ECL, but it doesn't feel too much in my opinion. What do you think?

Medium viper snake, 2 RHD: +3 natural armor, -2 Str, +6 Dex, -8 Int, +2 Wis, -10 Cha, one bite with a 1d6 Con/1d6 Con poison, obviously no hands and 20ft movement speed. That poison is not bad, but I don't feel like it balances the advantages of other races, especially with animal stats. 1 RHD, DLA-1

Large viper snake, 3 RHD: In the viper snake's case, being Large just means having less chance to hit and a lower AC. Your bite doesn't even deal more damage. There must be some use to being reachless Large in this case, but I don't feel like they make this better than the Medium one. It doesn't even have more natural armor. 1 RHD, DLA-1.

Huge viper snake, 6 RHD: Finally, they remembered that increasing size should give you ability boosts. +6 Str, +2 Con, Huge size (and finally a bit of reach), +5 natural armor, and your bite now does 1d6+1-1/2 Str! Incredible (I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to, but hey, not gonna complain)! That will be enough for 3 RHD, sure. And DLA-2 should make it interesting too.

Squid, 3 RHD: As Inevitability said, a larger octopus with another HD, slightly better stats (though intelligence went down), a higher jet speed, and the removed ability to move around on land. Similar enough to be worth the same. 2 RHD, DLA-0.

Giant Squid, 12 RHD: And there we have the bigger one. Is there any nonepic, non-hydra creature with more natural attacks than that? You have 10 tentacles and one bite, for a flurry of eleven attacks in a full attack. +16 Str, +6 Dex, Huge size and 30ft reach with your tentacles. That's really strong, and definitely the best animal there is. I suggest 8 RHD for the giant squid, two more than the giant octopus and 4 less than the kraken. It's maybe even a bit strong at that number. It also should like DLA-2.

Toad, 1/4 RHD: You have no attack. That's hilarious. Not many creatures with a Dex score don't have even a slam attack. Still, you somehow have the best Wisdom out of all animals, equal to the Owl, the Indian elephant and some whales. With your ginormous Hide bonus (who has +21 at ECL 1?), you should make an okay-ish divine caster, but you will always be a bit underpowered compared to a humanoid race. No change, 1 RHD, DLA-0.

Weasel, 1/2 RHD: Attach is an incredible ability. For the low-low price of losing your Dexterity bonus to AC and risking getting pinned by anything above Tiny size, you can deal 1 HP to a single target per round. Round of applause, please. You have skills bonuses that could make you an okay rogue, but as with the toad, it's just not worth taking and reminds more of the lizard than anything else. 1 RHD, DLA-1

Baleen Whale, 12 RHD: GARGANTUAN. Yes, it's the only advantage of being a baleen whale. You're stronger than an elephant (+24 Str) and have Blindsight, but have less attacks, and live in water but have to go back to the surface to breath. 7 RHD, DLA-3.

Cachalot Whale, 12 RHD: A Baleen Whale with a bite on top of your tail slap, +2 Con and +2 Wis. Let's go with 8 RHD, but I think I would still rather play a giant squid. DLA-2

Orca, 9 RHD: Eh, not that bad with 3 RHD less. Same selling points, but only +16 Str, a bite but no tail slap and only Huge size. 5 RHD, DLA-2

Wolf, 2 RHD: And finally, we get the OG wolf! A riding dog is better, but I don't think +4 Str, +4 Dex and 50ft movement speed should be allowed in ECL 1. 1 RHD, LA+1, DLA-0 (yes, same rating as the riding dog, but then again, the riding dog was at the very top of the 1RHD+1 group).


And that's 38 creatures reviewed in a 10-days period (and 138 in this page of the thread). The most I've ever done, and the most I'll probably ever do, but animals really don't have much for them. Next time, it's the vermins, with their famous beatsticks with more HD than most great wyrms and less stats than a baleen whale. See you then!