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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Bit of an important note about the Larvae Swarm, the damage of a Swarm attack is actually specifically based on hit dice. So reducing to 5 RHD would intrinsically mean the Swarm attack would fall to 1d6, but then it also automatically grows to 2d6 with the first class level. Being as how it's damage at end of move with not even so much as an attack roll and brings a Con-based DC against Nauseated, this is fine, being a Swarm is really good action economy.

    I'd also consider the adult to still be perfectly playable at 14 RHD, since it does come with a four-attack Pounce and Improved Grab at Huge with +14 Str, and can shrug off pretty much every source of raw-HP danger better than any standard race without serious effort into survivability thanks to how Natural Armor, Fast Healing, and DR/- add up. It's actually a pretty impressive canning of what a PC Martial wants in life, leaving want for item numbers, a Fly speed, and the piles of situational stuff that are the job of full casters readying a laundry-list of Abjurations by scroll, slot, wand, staff, or Contingency. Occasionally Runic Guardian.

    ...Also the game breaks horribly when you have SR much more than 10 above your level. At 5 RHD, SR 22 is HD+17, meaning it'll take a caster seven levels higher to get a 50/50 chance and a same-level caster has only 15%, and much of what they can do to you will be subject to Evasion and an unusually high Reflex save. The same goes for the Huge adult, including the Reflex save. They be sticky.

  2. - Top - End - #212
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    Bit of an important note about the Larvae Swarm, the damage of a Swarm attack is actually specifically based on hit dice. So reducing to 5 RHD would intrinsically mean the Swarm attack would fall to 1d6, but then it also automatically grows to 2d6 with the first class level. Being as how it's damage at end of move with not even so much as an attack roll and brings a Con-based DC against Nauseated, this is fine, being a Swarm is really good action economy.

    I'd also consider the adult to still be perfectly playable at 14 RHD, since it does come with a four-attack Pounce and Improved Grab at Huge with +14 Str, and can shrug off pretty much every source of raw-HP danger better than any standard race without serious effort into survivability thanks to how Natural Armor, Fast Healing, and DR/- add up. It's actually a pretty impressive canning of what a PC Martial wants in life, leaving want for item numbers, a Fly speed, and the piles of situational stuff that are the job of full casters readying a laundry-list of Abjurations by scroll, slot, wand, staff, or Contingency. Occasionally Runic Guardian.

    ...Also the game breaks horribly when you have SR much more than 10 above your level. At 5 RHD, SR 22 is HD+17, meaning it'll take a caster seven levels higher to get a 50/50 chance and a same-level caster has only 15%, and much of what they can do to you will be subject to Evasion and an unusually high Reflex save. The same goes for the Huge adult, including the Reflex save. They be sticky.
    Thank you for the swarm damage, I had forgotten. Still, I don't think it changes much the rating, what you really like is the distraction. Being a swarm is really good for action economy, but in the end they don't have much they can do with their action. At least this one could make a decent Ardent with its Wisdom, but not much more.

    About Spell Resistance: since the beginning, I've been rating monsters as if they lost one point of spell resistance for each HD they lose, since it's what Martixy did in his thread, and since most monsters have SR calculated as "X+number of HD". This also seems more balanced, and prevents monsters from having SR 20 above their number of RHD if I reduce their RHD.

    Quote Originally Posted by First post of this thread
    The Spell Resistance, if it has one, of the creature scales as +1 per total HD.
    With that in mind, I may have undersold it. My comparison was the cave troll of the same book, which has almost the same abilities, a few natural attacks less but more overall stats and a much better skill list, plus the invaluable ability to wield actual weapons. Still, DR 5/- and SR 4+HD are still good, and should be worth something, as well as the great ability to summon a larva swarm. Maybe 12 RHD? I'm really reluctant to put the brood keeper above the kraken, considering the grappling monster that it is, and how it can zoom through the battlefield with Scorpion's Grasp. As good defensively as it is, the brood keeper cannot really keep up in terms of offense. You get to the same number of RHD as a War Troll, which got +0 in the original thread, and doesn't have Improved Grab or Pounce, but has fuill BAB, better stats, better SR, Regeneration 8, DR 5/Adamantine (not a far cry from DR 5/-) and can wield weapons.
    Edit: And the extremely strong Dazing Blow. Honestly I still think the brood keeper is a bit behind the troll. Probably enough for 11 RHD instead.

    Can other people speak up on that note?
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-04-03 at 05:14 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    I'm impressed by your diligence and your thoroughness, Beni! And the awesome dragon pictures too. The Last Elf was indeed a very good read, and the linguistic considerations about the wraith and the hag were very interesting (I know, right?? Like, how do you translate in French when one monster is called a Nightmare and the one right after is called a Cauchemar??). Bien joué.
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  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    I'm impressed by your diligence and your thoroughness, Beni! And the awesome dragon pictures too. The Last Elf was indeed a very good read, and the linguistic considerations about the wraith and the hag were very interesting (I know, right?? Like, how do you translate in French when one monster is called a Nightmare and the one right after is called a Cauchemar??). Bien joué.
    Thank you very much, I appreciate it! I'm happy to hear you liked the translation tangent, I'll try to add a few of those in the future, and to answer your question, the nightmare wasn't that interesting. It's just "destrier noir" in french, or "black steed", since the only reason it was called nightmare in the first place is for the "night mare" pun, and there's really no way to translate that. Germans did the opposite, and completely gave up on the horse thing to name it "Nachtmahr", which simply means nightmare but loses all the pun potential.



    In the end, since nobody objected, I'll adjust the brood keeper to 12 RHD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    Well, how did you think necromancers gather bodies for their unholy experiments? Send undead that they created? Go on battlefields or plunder graveyards themselves!? No, absolutely not, they obviously ask artificers to build a 17 HD Construct with spikes on its back to bring the bodies back 4 by 4. Because convenience has never been more important than style.
    5e also gives us more insight on this. The reason necromancers love having a cadaver collector is because when it impales a body on its spikes, it also traps a part of that creature's mind, allowing its master to create both corporeal and incorporeal undead. This, along with the fact that most collectors are created by fiends on Acheron, explains why it has developped intelligence, an alignment and a sense of purpose, while it's still pretty clearly a golem. The paralyzing gas it breathes also seems to come from these trapped souls, which may explain why it's a (Su) ability in 3.5 (or not, considering even the iron golem's regular poisonous breath is (Su)).


    The cadaver collector is a golem in every way except in name, with the same bonus to strength and natural armor (+20, between stone and iron), unusually strong slams (this one's deal 4d8! That's as if the collector was constanly wielding two Gargantuan bastard swords!), DR 10/Adamantine and magic immunity.
    On top of that, the collector has a breath weapon that paralyzes people with a Reflex save (reflex SoL are pretty rare, so that's good), is slowed by sonic attacks and healed by lightning (any lightning attack removes the slow effect), among other specific weaknesses. It's good for a construct to have a way to heal itself, and lightning attacks are way more common than sonic ones, so that's not too bad. Still, slowed is a harsh debuff, and the cadaver collector may have a hard time fighting spellcasters if they know what they're doing, even if it has 40ft movement speed. It can also trample its opponents and bounce low-level spells (nice, but ultimately probably useless at these ECL).
    And finally, it can collect cadavers. Improved Grab on its slams, and it can also Impale its opponents. In essence, when it pins an opponent, it impales them on the spikes on its back, which makes it not be considered grappled anymore and deals hefty damage to the impaled guy (Slam+1-1/2 Str when first impaled, 2d8 on each subsequent round, and 4d8 when they try to escape, which is almost impossible, since it's a Strength check DC 28). It will be useful against a few Medium opponents, but will most probably be of little use against bosses.

    The cadaver collector is much better than even an iron golem, especially with its semi-useable mental stats (-6 Int, +6 Wis, +4 Cha). The sonic weakness is a big problem, but the paralyzing breath, grappling capabilities and stronger slams much more than make up for it. I think it would be useable and even pretty strong with 13 RHD. The first thing you should do if you want to play this is grab some at-will lightning capabilities. This allows you to infinitely heal outside combat and all but remove your sonic weakness. Unfortunately, Dragonfire adepts are immune to their own breath weapon, so I advise Cadaver Collector 13/ Sorcerer 1/ Dragon Disciple X. You gain a lightning breath weapon at level 3 of Dragon Disciple, and two claws and a bite at level 2, which gives you more attacks to try to Impale your opponents, or to use a mouthpick weapon. This requires you to put all your skill points in Knowledge (Arcana) and Speak Language (Draconic), but really, were you expecting to be able to use skills with -6 to Int? With 17 RHD, I guess DLA-2 should make for a playable character.

    Greater Cadaver Collector, 35 RHD:
    Yup, still hate advanced golems. This is just a bigger Cadaver Collector, with only size adjustments to the stat block. They didn't even update the Impale ability to allow it to impale Large creatures (which I assume it can, since it really doesn't make sense otherwise). On the plus side, its slams are now equivalent to Colossal bastard swords. Meh, 15 RHD I guess? And what are a 35 BAB and 5 epic feats worth in epic levels? I guess you should be able to go toe-to-toe with very low-epic characters, even though your main schtick has been obsolete for a while by now. Let's go with DLA-14 for an ECL 21.


    This must be a really creepy monster to fight. Covered in corpses, and breathing the enslaved soul of your deceased friends, before bringing them back to its master to turn them into undead and send them back to fight you? I understand why cadaver collectors are primary targets on most battlefield. Next time, we'll see one of the possible fates of all those collected corpses, with the Charnel Hound!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-04-23 at 09:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Does the breath weapon give a 24h-immunity? If not, it's even better, and if yes, you can breath on the party early in the morning till they all make their save, so that later on you can include them in the area of effect with little care.

    I like it when Undead actually have meaningful things to do at more than low levels. You could also gain infinite electricity damage with Undead Meldshaping and a soulmeld somewhere, couldnt' you? This would free up some class levels to go into something more interesting than Sorcerer.

    No idea on whether the proposed negative LA/reduced HDs are accurate, but it's at least tempting to try one at 13 RHD.
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  7. - Top - End - #217
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    Does the breath weapon give a 24h-immunity? If not, it's even better, and if yes, you can breath on the party early in the morning till they all make their save, so that later on you can include them in the area of effect with little care.
    No, there's no immunity, but the paralysis is broken immediately when the target is dealt lethal damage, so you'd better coup de grace them before anything else. It's supposed to be just enough time to grab them and impale them without having to go after them.

    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    I like it when Undead actually have meaningful things to do at more than low levels. You could also gain infinite electricity damage with Undead Meldshaping and a soulmeld somewhere, couldnt' you? This would free up some class levels to go into something more interesting than Sorcerer.
    I think you got confused by the name ^^ It's a cadaver collector in the sense that it collects cadavers, not in the sense that it's a cadaver that happens to be a collector. The monster's a Construct, not an Undead. That is good, in that it gains more HP, but on the other hand, it cannot take Undead Meldshaping, and doesn't have the constitution to meld a single soulmeld.

    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    No idea on whether the proposed negative LA/reduced HDs are accurate, but it's at least tempting to try one at 13 RHD.
    That's the point of the thread ^^ Don't hesitate to ask your DM to let you try one and tell me how it went!
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here


    I like how there's a human for scale, as if the fact that it's litterally made of human skeletons wasn't enough.

    Someone on the internet once said that this should have an ability that makes any creature in its space get grappled by all the skeleton that compose it, and eventually get absorbed in the Charnel Hound. That would have made it a pretty interesting monster, instead of the HD-bloated melee thumbless undead it is.

    As it is, the charnel hound is mostly a Huge beatstick with enormous strength (+28 Str), pretty good HP (+8 Cha and Unholy Toughness), the regular claw-claw-bite and a +16 natural armor that will be pretty good with a lower amount of HD. Apart from it, it has a few moderately useful abilities, like DR 10/Silver and Magic (I'm sure the Magic part will be useful at these levels), Rend and Power Attack as a bonus feat; a few barely useful abilities, like SR 2+HD, Frightful Presence and the ability to heal itself each time it kills a humanoid (that would be extremely good if it was any creature); and a few outright detrimental abilities (lack of thumbs, -8 Int, and aversion to daylight which gives it -4 to most rolls under the sun). So, what is something that strong, but with half-BAB, no hands, and the least amount of versatility I've seen in a long time, worth? It's definitely worse than a Cloud Giant, with worse overall stats, BAB, and body shape, but the undead immunities with Unholy Toughness make it better than a Fire Giant in my opinion. I'll say 9 RHD is good here.

    Next time, after the horrific over-RHD'd dog with no good ability, we'll have the horrific over-RHD'd spider with no good ability! See you then for the chelicera!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-04-18 at 02:01 PM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Hmm, 9 HDs seems rather low. It has more Str and to-hit bonus than the proverbial raging 9th-level Water orc Barbarian. Like, with base 18 and a +2 item for both, 48 v Str vs 28 Str and +21 vs +18, bonus damage +19 vs +13. Accounting for PA for a natural weapon for the hound and a 2-handed weapon for the barbarian at -7 penalty for the hound and -5 for the orc (so +14 in the end for both), that's +26 vs +23, and then secondary natural attacks for the hound. But also wayyy more HPs and resistances of all kinds, is pretty much immune to grappling, etc. etc. Sunlight vulnerability can be accounted for without too much trouble. Body shape is a pain, I agree.

    If we put it at, say, 13 RHD, then the barbarian gets Greater Rage and that ends up at hound: +23 vs barbarian: +23. That seems a better base to me. How about that?
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  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    How about that?
    I... Disagree. You are a dog. You can't wield weapons‚ or manipulate items‚ or even open a door without somebody helping you or a level in sorcerer to get Mage Hand. Even if you find a way to wield a weapon‚ you won't ever get to 4 iteratives because you have the worst melee type of the game and you lost more than 5 BAB with your RHD alone. You are also a dog that won't be able to enter most buildings because the door is too small. You spend your days outside‚ where you get -4 because you're allergic to sunlight. You're also an undead with undead immunities‚ which is good‚ and undead traits‚ which are bad. You can be turned by clerics and paladins (with no innate turning resistance‚ mind you)‚ can't be resurrected if you're destroyed and the most common health items will damage you instead. And there are very few prestige classes you can actually enter because you're so much behind in skills‚ BAB and saves.

    That‚ plus the fact that you have no skill‚ almost at all (at most‚ you can gain 6 ranks in Jump by ECL9)‚ must amount to something. The charnel hound is still probably better than an equivalent level PHB character in melee combat. But it's not enough for such a monster to be better than an equivalent character in melee combat to be worth playing. There are other sides to D&D‚ and the charnel hound fails at basically all of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    I... Disagree. You are a dog. You can't wield weapons‚ or manipulate items‚ or even open a door without somebody helping you or a level in sorcerer to get Mage Hand.
    (Well, technically it does have a throat slot for something like a Hand of the Mage or, better yet, a Collar of Perpetual Attendance. It's too bad that)

    [e]ven if you find a way to wield a weapon‚ you won't ever get to 4 iteratives because you have the worst melee type of the game and you lost more than 5 BAB with your RHD alone. You are also a dog that won't be able to enter most buildings because the door is too small. You spend your days outside‚ where you get -4 because you're allergic to sunlight. You're also an undead with undead immunities‚ which is good‚ and undead traits‚ which are bad. You can be turned by clerics and paladins (with no innate turning resistance‚ mind you)‚ can't be resurrected if you're destroyed and the most common health items will damage you instead. And there are very few prestige classes you can actually enter because you're so much behind in skills‚ BAB and saves.

    That‚ plus the fact that you have no skill‚ almost at all (at most‚ you can gain 6 ranks in Jump by ECL9)‚ must amount to something.

  12. - Top - End - #222
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here


    Even if we can't see the picture in the original thread anymore, I'm not putting it here. This is litterally just a big spider.

    Well this one is just incredibly bad. The chelicera is little more than a monstrous spider, with no supernatural ability and fun but ultimately useless extraordinary ones. Its stats are similar but ultimately worse than those of an ettercap (+4 Str, +8 Dex, +2 Con, -8 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha) except a half-decent +5 natural armor.

    It has the regular claw-claw-bite routine (primary claw) and clearly has a grappling focus, but is pretty bad at it. They tried to balance the fact that it's a Medium Vermin by giving it +4 to grappling checks and the ability to use Dex instead of Str on grappling checks, but since Improved Grab only works on creatures at most one size category smaller than you, you cannot efficiently grapple anything above Small size. That's extremely bad, and means that you won't be able to use your Blood Drain in most combats (1d4 Con drain each round you have pinned a creature is extremely slow anyway, and drain is little better than Con damage against monsters-of-the-week).

    It can also reproduce sounds it hears, kinda like a spidery lyrebird (just a limited Ghost Sound at will); it has immunity to sonic (probably the least common energy type); has scent (underpowered, but useful I guess) and Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

    And now, let's play a game of "how many RHD did WotC give this one?". Well, it's a Medium creature with stats a bit better than a Large Monstrous Spider, so 4 or 5 RHD? Maybe 7? Wrong. It has freaking twelve of them. That's unplayable in all the worse ways. Compared to an ettercap, you have that weird use-impaired grappling focus, more natural armor and dexterity, and immunity to mind affecting, but less intelligence, no web and especially no ability to wield weapons and items. That seems comparable to me. I'll suggest 2 RHD for the Chelicera. It should make for an okay rogue, maybe with a ranger dip. And it's bad enough that DLA-5 doesn't seem too overpowered.


    The chelicera is like the Lamia from MM1, an underpowered, uninteresting monster that probably got created because they had an idea for a specific adventure involving them, but nothing else on them, so they got next to no lore. Next time, we'll have the first of the very few elementals of that book: the Chraal!
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here


    I'm sure nobody here ever wondered how the 'ch' in that creature's name is pronounced. I mean, is there a single word in english where 'ch' in 'chr' isn't pronounced [k], like in "chronicle"? Well, WotC seemingly thought that it still wasn't good enough, and translated this creature's name as "Kraal" in french, despite 'ch' following basically the same rules as in english, and the name not meaning anything by itself.

    The chraal is a somewhat humanoid in-between an undead and an elemental, formed when a creature dies on the elemental planes of air and water, but it doesn't have any undead trait, or any elemental subtype of its birth planes (instead, it has the [Cold] subtype), or any swimming or flying speed. Seeing how it's completely inadapted to its home planes, it's no wonder it particularly likes to answer wizards Planar Binding them. However, it's a wonder any wizard has ever considered binding it, considering it has 9 RHD (just above what you can call with a lesser binding, even with Infernal Bargainer), isn't an outsider, and has basically no useful ability. Well, let's reduce that number at least to the point it can be bound by lesser binding, and hopefully even to the point of playability!

    - Large Elemental with 9 RHD. That type does not give full BAB, so it's not great. At least it's not undead.
    - +10 Str, +10 Con, -2 Int, +4 Cha. No surprise here. Basic beatstick stats.
    - +8 natural armor, +4 deflection to AC, DR 5/-. Nice defense, but nothing stellar.
    - claw/claw/bite, with +1d6 cold damage. Once again nothing unexpected, just some damage. Its body shape allows it to wield weapons, which conduct the cold.
    - A 3/day cold breath weapon (seriously? Why not at-will?) and a 20 damage death throes (would basically only make you harder to resurrect, if the fact that you're an elemental didn't mean you already need a true resurrection).

    This is painfully standard. The numbers are better than a Large Earth elemental and it can wield weapons, but I would probably choose a Huge one over it. A pretty strong 6 RHD, and DLA-2, since none of its abilities scale and it only gains +2 BAB out of these three additional HD.

    Yeah, you're probably still not binding this one, even with lower RHD. Next time, we'll have the only elemental swarm of the game that isn't just a swarm of elementite, the Cinder Swarm! See ya!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-04-29 at 12:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    There's this neat thumb rule from I can't remember who on the LA-assignment thread but hat's off to you whomever you maybe because it's a useful one, where beatsticks should get a net +4 to all ability scores per ECL to be useful. So that dude at 6 RHD seems about right since it caps off at +22 net ability modifiers.
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    Played as is, this one may be even worse than the shrieker fungus. Not only do you also lack the ability to make regular attacks or to have any kind of magic item (you reach the elusive 1 lb. max heavy load and have basically no body slot) and almost can't be buffed by magic, you have to pay SIXTEEN RHD for it. Yeah, we're removing most of that. And then some.

    The cinder swarm is a swarm of fine elementals coming from one or the other Elemental Plane of Fire depending on where you're looking. What? You weren't expecting such a monster to have good lore, did you? It's unexplainably evil (they even acknowledge that it's weird for an Elemental, but don't explain it) and only wants to burn and kill people. I'm sure it makes for great encounters and even better PCs.

    Anyway, it's basically just a swarm with all that entails, including woefully inadequate stats. -10 Str, +12 Dex, -6 Con. It also has the Fire subtype and the Burn ability. The Fire subtype is generally useful, which, with that great Dex bonus, will make you avoid the most common AoEs. The vulnerability to Cold isn't great, but nothing crippling, especially if you get Evasion (which you should). Burn gives you 3d6 additional damage and a chance to make your opponents catch on fire (so, at most 1d6 more damage per round for 1d4 round). It also makes any creature hitting you with a natural weapon take damage as if you hit it with your swarm attack. A creature hitting you. A Fine swarm. With a natural weapon. Which they explicitly can't do without a really niche enchantment that probably wasn't put on natural weapons in the history of the game. So, it sucks, everybody knows it. Still slightly better than other swarms, but probably not as strong as the hellwasp swarm. I suggest 4 RHD, DLA-9.


    Seriously, there are few worse choices as a PC than this one, no matter the ECL or number of RHD. Don't play a cinder swarm. Next time, after "Undead but it's really an evil Elemental" and "Swarm but it's really an evil Elemental", we'll have "Elemental but it's really an evil Ooze"! The conflagration ooze awaits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    The conflagration ooze, because if you put enough fire inside something, then it awakens to sentience. And becomes evil. Because of course it does.


    I won't lie, the charred skeleton does wonders for the badassery of the thing.

    Let's be clear and honest here: this monster makes absolutely no sense. This is an ooze that has a fire inside of it and eats constantly to sustain that fire, but its body is litterally too weak to sustain itself, and it constantly leaks fire. That's as if someone with diabetes constantly made themselves puke and had to eat again afterwards. It also lives underground, because it's obviously the best place to find something to eat and not a place where its fire would consume all oxygen in a matter of minutes, leading to it extinguishing and dying almost immediately.
    But the worst here is that it's intelligent. Sentient, even. Its type literally has the extraordinary quality of being mindless, and they are all True Neutral except one or two from Dragon Magazine! Why is the conflagration ooze evil? Hilariously, it is also said to be able to study magic, even though it couldn't hold a spellbook without it burning down on contact. And it speaks ignan despite not coming from the Elemental Plane of Fire and isn't an elemental despite being constituted of literal fire.
    Mechanically, it's not much better, and it goes against everything that makes oozes what they are. It has two slams while all other oozes have one, explicitly has oozes traits while still having an intelligence score (so it's mindless with an intelligence score. Sure.), has frankly ridiculous natural armor with a type known to have none, inexplicably has reach, and is, I believe, the only monster in the game with Ability Focus as a bonus feat (the racial bonuses to DCs exist for a reason). And finally, it somehow has +8 to Hide and Move Silently. I challenge anybody to find one reason why a 3 meters tall flaming sphere that shines all around, sizzles with fire and heats air all around it to an almost unbearable degree, would have a bonus to stealth.

    I mean, there are a lot of monsters with one or two weird traits, but I think that's the first time since the Will-o-Wisp that a monster is so completely without any semblance of consistency or realism.


    However, as a PC, the conflagration ooze is not completely awful. Mindless with intelligence is a good combination, and the stat bonuses are nice, especially the +12 to Str and the incredible +14 natural armor. The slams are really great, with Improved Grab, and +2d6 fire damage and +1d4 Constitution damage for two turns if they fail a save. It also has blindsight, like all oozes, and a few interesting 1/day mind-affecting SLAs, the best of which being Hold Monster. Sadly, it's crippled by its body shape which won't let it manipulate any items. The conflagration ooze will especially miss weapons. I guess 5 RHD would be good. Your natural armor makes you really tough at these levels, but you don't hit that hard in return, even with Fire in the Blood. And DLA-1, but I believe it would still be pretty weak. DLA-2 is too much in my opinion.

    Infernal Conflagration Ooze: An advanced Conflagration Ooze going to Huge size with the Fiendish template applied. It now also speaks Infernal despite not having a mouth, and has both vulnerability and resistance to cold. Anyway, the higher Strength and Charisma are good, as is Spell Resistance 5+HD. I suggest 8 RHD and DLA-4.

    What do you think of these oozes? Do you think WotC were right to create a creature contrasting so much with the rest of its type, or do you think there should be some consistency in the abilities of one creature type? At least the next creature comes back to the norm, and conform to all standards of its type by being an edgy, incorporeal, RHD-bloated undead. Next time, we'll review the Deathshrieker!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-08-22 at 03:57 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Man, the Infernal conflagration ooze having both resistance and weakness to cold is just the darndest thing

    But I like them. They might not abide to the normal stereotype of Oozes, and it would have made quite some more sense to be Elementals instead...but I really dig the evil sentient fireball creature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    Man, the Infernal conflagration ooze having both resistance and weakness to cold is just the darndest thing
    Now, now. They share that setup with such respectable creatures as the shambling mound!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Now, now. They share that setup with such respectable creatures as the shambling mound!
    That's a common misconception. The Plant type has never given a monster Fire vulnerability, and the shambling mound has never had vulnerability to fire at all (it, however, always had resistance to fire, except of course in 4e, because 4e doesn't respect anything)
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    And today, we have the incarnation of that cliché creepy child's voice that you often hear in horror movies: the deathshrieker. That's an incorporeal undead arising from the sorrow of the last cries of the dying. Another undead with the nightshades that wasn't ever really alive. It was supposed to fill its enemies with dread with its screams to render them insane. In actual play, however, it doesn't really work as intended.

    - 18 RHD, Medium incorporeal undead. Ouch. That is an awful lot of HD. We'll remove most of that. Incorporeal Undead has a few downsides, but considering it has +4 turn resistance, that's mostly very positive and will make it invincible against some encounters.
    - +14 Dex, -2 Int, +4 Wis, 10 Cha, +1/3HD profane bonus to AC. Obviously no Con or Str. That's a lot of AC. The rest is expected, and really low for an 18 RHD creature, but would be worth 5 or 6 HD on its own on an incorporeal undead. You have no energy resistance. That's not good. That means you're going to be pretty weak to no-save spells, and even to regular Fireball-type spells.
    - Despair. That's the big one. First time an opponent sees you, they make a will save or are paralyzed for 1d4 round (hello coup-de-grace). Really strong.
    - Scream of the dying: Supposedly strong, in fact more of a liability. You have to keep screaming for 3 rounds without doing anything else, forcing saves against deafened, then stunned, then insanity. That's good and all, but it's an unmoving 30ft area. In actual play, nothing will be more than deafened by that. And you lose 3 turns for that. And it's only 1/day, because of course it needed one more restriction.

    Your offense is really good, but you have almost nothing against spells. I strongly suggest going rogue if you plan on playing this. Not only will it give you a much needed Evasion, being able to efficiently hide means you can use Despair when you want for maximum effect. It also improves your currently weak incorporeal touch attack from 1d4 charisma damage to actually good DPR. With that in mind, what is the deathshrieker worth? Even without Despair, it's slightly better than a Spectre, despite its much worth incorporeal touch. With Despair, I'd say a strong 9 RHD, or maybe even 10. And as always, Undead RHD are worthless, except to give more turn resistance. DLA-6.


    What do you think of that guy? Do we have enough incorporeal undead yet? Not even close! Just wait for libris mortis... Before that, next time, we'll review this book's dinosaurs, the salvageable Bloodstriker and the absolutely awful Battletitan!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-05-15 at 11:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    That's a common misconception. The Plant type has never given a monster Fire vulnerability, and the shambling mound has never had vulnerability to fire at all
    (…

    How on earth did I fail to notice that? Go planties!)

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    Ah, too bad this ability is both 1/day and completely useless. It has to be entirely disregarded to assess the monster's power, basically. Rogue seems a good choice: going Maiming Strike allows you to double up on Cha damage up to the point where it's a OHKO on a lot of monsters. But the utter lack of anything useful brought forth by the racial HDs makes me think that 9 or 10 RHDs is quite a lot, already. I'd go 7: this way you can nab 2 Rogue special abilities before level 20.
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    Ah, too bad this ability is both 1/day and completely useless. It has to be entirely disregarded to assess the monster's power, basically. Rogue seems a good choice: going Maiming Strike allows you to double up on Cha damage up to the point where it's a OHKO on a lot of monsters. But the utter lack of anything useful brought forth by the racial HDs makes me think that 9 or 10 RHDs is quite a lot, already. I'd go 7: this way you can nab 2 Rogue special abilities before level 20.
    In this kind of situation, where there is one far-reaching ability that may have heavy consequences on basically the whole campaign, my main goal has always been consistency with the original thread. You take a similar monster and you compare the current monster with it. Case in point, incorporeal undead. The spectre got a LA+1 in the main thread, for a total of ECL 8. Now, offensively, Charisma Drain and 40ft flying is much worse than 2 negative levels on your incorporeal touch attack and 80ft, but comparing that with the defensive abilities of +8 Dex, -6 Int, +6 Cha, +2 Turn Resistance, no sunlight powerlessness, death's grace and freaking Despair, I can't put the deathshrieker below the spectre. Not that much higher, but definitely stronger. 9 RHD is a minimum in my opinion, but putting the deathshrieker higher would be a stretch, since it is really passive without at least one or two class levels. So there you have it.

    Of course, the standards for Level Adjustment have slightly changed during the years, and maybe the Spectre would have gotten LA+0 nowadays, but that's the best scale I've got for some of these monsters. I've never actually played an incorporeal creature, you know (the closest I've done was a Shadowcaster/Master of Shadow), but even with that I know that it is really a boon, especially with dedicated stats like those of the deathshrieker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    (Bad) Dinosaurs


    And today, we are back with the dinosaurs! MM3 is the last Monster Manual where there is a dinosaur entry, and we can see that they were running out of interesting real-life dinosaurs, and they chose to simply invent new ones with abilities that really shouldn't be put on animals. Acid blood, Poison spray, and whatever the hell they thought they did with the fleshraker... It's nice for the diversity of the edition, but they should have thought about druids beforehand.

    The battletitan (basically a t-rex bred to serve as army fodder) and bloodstriker (a horned ankylosaurus that attacks by biting its opponents) have all the advantages and drawbacks of regular animals. High strength and natural armor, but almost no intelligence, and basically no ability apart from pure, dumb combat. Let's see how they fare.

    Battletitan, 36 RHD: That picture is hilarious. The battletitan has legs so small that it always seems to be on the verge of falling over, and with its eyes covered it's a wonder how it can even see what's in front of it. Also, look at its feats. It spent three of them on armor proficiency, supposedly just to justify the picture. Because +7 AC is absolutely necessary when you already have +20 natural armor, and well worth losing a third of your speed. I mean, at least it's not Toughness three times.
    - Huge Animal, with so many RHD that a cleric of its CR couldn't even Animate Dead one without Desecrate.
    - +32 Str, +0 Dex, +18 Con, -8 Int, +2 Wis, +6 Cha, +20 natural armor. Strong and toughas nails, but only 10 Dex and dumb as a brick. Are we sure this isn't just a wingless white dragon?
    - Bite, 2 claws, one tail attack. The white dragon theory is evermore accurate. It also has Improved Grab and swallow whole on its bite.
    - That's all, thanks for reading.

    So, Improved Grab with so much Str and size is great, but really nothing else of note. That's definitely not as good a grappler as, say, a kraken. Also, you have no skill and probably can't wield weapons without losing your main schtick. Better stats than the purple worm and more natural attacks, but no poison and worse type. I suggest 9 RHD for the battletitan.

    Bloodstriker, 9 RHD:
    Why does this not have a gore attack again?
    - Large reachless Animal
    - +12 Str, +10 Con, -8 Int, -2 Cha, +10 NA. Good natural armor here, but less strength than a bear.
    - When you try to attack it, you take 1d8+6 from its spikes. If you succeed and draw blood, it is acidic and deals 1d6 additional damage. This doesn't apply to reach weapons. It can also squirt acidic blood from its eyes to deal 2d6 damage in a 30ft-line. This just means once more that you shouldn't attack this thing in melee.
    -Only one bite attack, with no ability except a Powerful Charge bonus feat. You are going to be extremely passive, at least until you can find a Mouthpick weapon.

    Good defenses, but less strength and fewer natural attacks than a brown bear, and no improved grab. It won't be playable with more than 4 RHD. And Animal RHD are not worth much more than their BAB. DLA-3.


    It's quite impressive how they managed to merge so many animals (T-Rex and stegosaurus for the battletitan; rhino, short-horned lizard, and the hippopotamus's acidic "blood" for the Bloodstriker) and still end up with something that basic and boring. And it's not over! Next time, it's the dragon eel, with the battletitan's swallow whole, the bloodstriker's powerful charge, all that underwater! See you then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    - +32 Str, +0 Dex, +18 Con, -8 Int, +2 Wis, +6 Cha, +20 natural armor. Strong and toughas nails, but only 10 Dex and dumb as a brick. Are we sure this isn't just a wingless white dragon?

    So, Improved Grab with so much Str and size is great, but really nothing else of note. That's definitely not as good a grappler as, say, a kraken. Also, you have no skill and probably can't wield weapons without losing your main schtick. Better stats than the purple worm and more natural attacks, but no poison and worse type. I suggest 9 RHD for the battletitan.
    I'm a novice with these ratings, but I thought people generally though +4 to stats was worth roughly +1 to effective class level. Am I misremembering? Or is the rest of the chassis sufficiently bad to be worth -3 LA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dhasenan View Post
    I'm a novice with these ratings, but I thought people generally though +4 to stats was worth roughly +1 to effective class level. Am I misremembering? Or is the rest of the chassis sufficiently bad to be worth -3 LA?
    These generalizations aren't worth much when we're talking about different types of HD - outsider HD are far better than animal HD. Body shape is also relevant.
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Every stat increase is also not made equal. Charisma‚ for example‚ does litterally nothing if you don't have SLAs or other ways to exploit it. And going from +24 to +32 in Str is way less impactful than going from -8 to +0 in Int. In one case you increase your damage output even more‚ for a creature that should already hit most of the time‚ +4 to damage per hit is really not that great (or +8 if you consider that all the bonus you get is going into Power Attack. That's not negligible‚ but not game changing either). On the other hand‚ the intelligence score means the difference between being able to contribute effectively out of combat or be restricted to 1 skill point per level out of a pitiful list.
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    Yes, it's just a dunkleosteus on which they inexplicably put the Dragon type. Yes, it's sentient and even usually evil (this is still MM3 after all). Yes it sometimes even negotiates safe passage with ships even though it doesn't have arms (what does it even ask in return). Yes, it's described as being 20ft long but still Large and fitting in a 10ft square. And yes, obviously it has many more RHD than it should have to be viable. But no matter, because this monster single-handedly confirms the sahuagins as simply being underwater kobolds who worship dragons just because of their strength and status, even when said dragon is just a big fish with no manipulators.

    The dragon eel (worst name of an already less-than-decent book in that department) has the same stats adjustments as a Mature Adult White Dragon... With -4 Int, -2 natural armor, one size category smaller, only one attack and none of the True Dragon goodies, like SLAs, or sorcerer levels, or sovereign archetypes...
    On the plus side, you get a decent swim speed (60ft), a really strong bite (4d8 is four sizes stronger than the regular bite damage, even stronger with Powerful Charge as a bonus feat) with added Improved Grab and Swallow Whole, and DR/Adamantine. Still, I don't see the dragon Eel competing any time soon with a true dragon. Maybe with seven or eight RHD? Let's go with 7 RHD (obviously in a fully underwater campaign), since not having arms will be a real detriment, and even using a Mouthpick weapon would mean giving up your great bite attack.

    I'd recommand going Thayan Gladiator as soon as possible if you play a Dragon Eel (that or Kensai, but I don't know what lord would accept the fealty of a giant water dragon). Being able to make iterative attacks with your bite will be great. (Of course, as always with creatures who can't hold weapons, a level of monk or battledancer is welcome to be able to make iterative unarmed strikes)
    As for DNLA, dragon RHD are as great as always, so I'd say DLA-3 maybe? What do you think?


    Next time we'll review Saint Seiya's Pisces Aphrodite's attack, the Dread Blossom Swarm!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2022-05-27 at 01:21 PM.
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    What a nice picture, though!

    I'd say dragon HDs are neat, but the dragon eel really makes a poor use of them. What are you going to do with that many skill points when you don't have hands, which is required for performing a fair number of the available skills? Besides, this monster needs more options, not more numbers. You can't go overboard (heh) even if you give that guy, I don't know, DLA-6.
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    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    What a nice picture, though!

    I'd say dragon HDs are neat, but the dragon eel really makes a poor use of them. What are you going to do with that many skill points when you don't have hands, which is required for performing a fair number of the available skills? Besides, this monster needs more options, not more numbers. You can't go overboard (heh) even if you give that guy, I don't know, DLA-6.
    Simply having full BAB and saves makes Dragon HD pretty good, and there are many things you can do with skills that do not involve hands. Simply Spotting, Listening, Spellcrafting, Bluffing, Hiding, Intimidating... In fact, most skills (and all of the Dunkleosteus's class skills) can absolutely be performed without hands. And it also gives you higher maximum skill ranks if you want to go Truenamer! Aren't you happy? (I'm not even sure truenaming would work underwater, how does that work? What about verbal components?)
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

    Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! One deadly attack is all it takes!
    Nice find! Have a cookie!
    Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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